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HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced 121  11

Peon Posts: 8 Karma: +0/-0 **

Warbux

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HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced
« on: January 20, 2019, 04:43:55 AM »
you know i we have all been wrong this whole time... we dont consider the fact we dont play on the speed the game was ment  to be played on
faster i think is the highest speed that the game is balanced on ... also people do not play hu correctly you can not play them like you play orcs
hu does not require wood in first tier wich means you dont need as many peons as orcs to which means hu are essentially faster
so your able to get a rush out an still have mages befor any orc even clicks his lust upgrade ... so far in my testings im able to rush an still get 2-3 mages out
befor the average person is lusted.. now if we are playin onfaster... an im ahead in speed wit hu .. you can easily take down a orcs 1st lusted wave..
now u can micro your mages more efficient you can slow all his ogres an drop a blizz on him.. clean up the rest with your knights an proceed to hit his base/blizz his gold or whatver
im pretty sure this is why iron man games were only played onf faster because it was balanced!

now this being said id like to start a petition to bring back iron man please so we can play the game the way its ment to be played with hu having a fair chance ty
Grunt Posts: 124 Karma: +11/-0 ***

Cel

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Re: HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced
« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2019, 12:01:40 PM »
lets put it that way differences are not big between the two races it is fairly simple to list them:

Resources:
Overall the resources cost differences for humans on upgrades is not always a win especially since in most map gold is more valuable in the long run yes you do not have to bother putting more peons on wood but you will run out of gold slightly faster too so overall not a real win

If you want to do the maths you can, both races are as fast for rushing 18 grunts except orcs wont have to pull peons out of their mine to get the lumber for tech.
Sure there are situations where you might prefer having humans for example in Friends where chopping peons are exposed but overall it is not a frank win win for humans.
It is a very situational advantage

Ogre vs knight spells:
There is a reason why church is almost never built and the altar of storm a building that is worth repairing to get just a little faster.
vision vs exhorcism:
vision gives better radius but you can use eyes of killrog to make enemy destroyers friendly fire (even if barely anyone does that) and also it lasts longer and allow your to scout multiple mines at once in one go which you cannot do with vision overall utility wise I would say it is a tie since you can use vision better to prepare an attack.
heal :
costs 1k gold and 200 ticks to research it is 2 times slower to get than lust
Useless because it simply does not heal enough to have a big enough impact for the time and cost it has.
exhorcism:
can be usefull but also costs 2k gold to research which is two times more than runes or bloodlust and also 200 ticks to reasearch (2 times slower than bloodlust) for an effect that is undoubtedly lower value and way more situational.

Now lets get to the fun part:

mage vs dk spells:
Here I will compare spells with their usage counterparts:
Coil vs Polymorphism
Coil is free you get it from the start and costs 100 mana two coils can kill almost any units in the game and also heal the dk back to full life.
Polymorphism costs 200 mana 2kgold and 200 ticks to research and will allow you to kill one unit instantly. You have to have the 200 mana to use it which makes it more situational.
Invisibility vs Haste:
Both spells allow one unit to surprise an enemy and do tons of damage before the enemy has time to react
Invisibility has the advantage that it can be used to scout  without enemy noticing.
Haste has the advantage that it doubles dragons damages and peons chops.
On the cost side of things it also costs 2k less gold 150 less mana and is researched twice as fast
Slow vs Haste:
You have to use slow during fights while enemies are moving targeting moving units is not as simple as preparing an attack and then send.
But it is true that slow works pretty much on all units. it is worth mentioning that both spells cancel each other.
Slow is a very good spell but it is single target and very uc intensive for the same cost as haste you get much more ease of use with haste though haste wont allow you to speed up the attacks of your units only dragons are an exception to that rule.

If you haste your units before a fight the human player will have to slow them twice to be able to slow them once to remove haste and a second time to slow them...

I dont think I need to compare tornado and flameshield whirlwind wins any day the only drawback is you do not decide exactly where it will wander.
Skeletons is a useless spell and very situational that cost a whole amount of money and has no human counterparts so we can leave it behind.

Balistas vs cats:
ballistas have to load their shots and they can also loose the bolt cats instantly fire no stupid loading time no cancel time. everything else is the same.

Archers vs trolls:
the only difference between the two is troll Regeneration vs Marksmanship which are occasionally researched but in very situational situations and mostly for trolling no puns intended.

Every strategy that you can play as a human player can be played as an orc player for almost exactly the same effect, the power to lust strat though has no equivalent for humans.
Also human mages are useless without any spell researched not Deathknights who basically have a polymorph spell for free right as they appear into existence.

So yes humans are in almost all regards weaker than orcs and this has not only to do with game speed you can play it at the slowest speed possible an orc will still have the advantage.
The only change really is that the faster the game goes the least refined the uc becomes.
Orcs spells being less uc intensive makes them more playable in fastest though to be honest it is still a mess.
Play fastest if you do not like uc and want to have more units on the map basically.
Peon Posts: 18 Karma: +1/-0 **

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Re: HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2019, 01:21:47 PM »
Your post is very spot on I would say. Although humans are a lot more fun to play for me personally (I always liked the challenge) orc definitely has the advantage late game. And that is solely based on BloodLust alone. All of the spells the human mages have are 100% useless on fastest. Even the evenfaster speed setting the spells are not efficient enough to research and use. On the faster speed, although still harder to play late game with humans, is more manageable than the higher speeds.

How many times do players like me and dugs see our allies type "if only you had lust we could have won"? But for the love of the alliance, WE SHALL NEVER CHAAAAAAAAANGE
Grunt Posts: 124 Karma: +11/-0 ***

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Re: HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced
« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2019, 02:24:12 PM »
Yup
Essentially playing humans is almost like playing the orcs without the altar of storms, with spells that are for the most part 2 times more expensive and/or harder to use and of course shitty catapults.

You can still win against another non handicapped orc player, even someone that has the same level as you if you manage to kill him with a rush or if you manage to get super big, while playing around these restrictions but that does not mean it is balanced.
You still have less options available to you at the start ;-)
Axe Thrower Posts: 265 Karma: +34/-4 ****

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Re: HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced
« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2019, 03:30:55 PM »
Since humans are a weaker late-game race, you have to be sneaky with them early.  Hide your raxes, fake dual, learn to OT, learn knight/sap rush,  do fast saps if your ally is an excellent rusher. Also, if it gets to late game and you're facing a strong dualer, the best strategy is to secure the enemy's potential expos, play super-defensive and bleed them dry.

Humans aren't an offensive race late-game, they're defensive. This puts a whole new spin on the game for me and I find it more enjoyable.

Oonymaiallymadoos
Sappers Posts: 754 Karma: +41/-0 ******

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Re: HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced
« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2019, 04:16:35 PM »
If you haste your units before a fight the human player will have to slow them twice to be able to slow them once to remove haste and a second time to slow them...


??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

What????
you need only one, haste/ slow wont stack, both spell will remove if u use another slow->faster faster->slow


if u play faster orc player will put A click lust then he will go to his base and control something else, new exp/rax making more ogres
while human will sill micro

orc>>>human
haste dk> invis mage
you can block invis mage while hasted dk will kill your all units if u try block him, ofc buldings will block haste and invis
Axe Thrower Posts: 265 Karma: +34/-4 ****

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Re: HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced
« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2019, 06:27:40 PM »

haste dk> invis mage
you can block invis mage while hasted dk will kill your all units if u try block him, ofc buldings will block haste and invis


you're wrong. invis mage >>>>>>>>>>>>> haste dk.   one paladin with full mana and exorcise the dk in one DONG. invis mae is super OP
Peon Posts: 8 Karma: +0/-0 **

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Re: HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced
« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2019, 07:28:49 PM »
Resources:
Overall the resources cost differences for humans on upgrades is not always a win especially since in most map gold is more valuable in the long run yes you do not have to bother putting more peons on wood but you will run out of gold slightly faster too so overall not a real win
ok will start here... u dont need as much peons for tier 1 is what i emnt ok so when u tech faster at lets say 16 15 peasants.. u have like a45 second speed advantage .. once u tech u pull 5 out mine an chop .. leave 10 in the mine ... then u make 2 peasants add them to wood as ur makin a stable u do not rep the stable.. once stable is done u go castle .. then once castle is done u spam more peasants put them on gold... an of make 2 mage towers an a church.. by the time ur done wit this ull have about 7 knights 2-3 mages and holy vision all befor a orc hits lust.. id say thats a huge advantage not needing as many peasants

and ps ... u dro pa early mill for wood advantage an use the peasant u made the mill with to chop early so he will pay for ur stable.. the others will pay for your castle.. sometimes i move more from gold to wood wood to gold depending the situaiton but its all about resource management gettin the resoureces when u need it ... so hu has a huge speed advantage an it doesnt affect your gold in game
Peon Posts: 8 Karma: +0/-0 **

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Re: HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced
« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2019, 07:33:23 PM »
the rest of what u said is just opinion so no need to comment there.. but yes on faster the game is balanced simple as that.. we need iron man back!!
Peon Posts: 8 Karma: +0/-0 **

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Re: HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced
« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2019, 07:41:10 PM »
do you realize how op holy vision is cel? its like u dont need ot send little eye balls to find people u jus bam pick a spot on the the map see the whole area,,, and like he said excor a dk killer easy.. and heal .. if u all healed as computers healed with all knights healing 1 knight u would see the huge advantage in heal being able to heal 1 knight to full health only using a tiny bit of mana off each knight with multicast.....i think the game is completly balanced on hu vs orc an theres no way of proving it unless u get derber orc vs derber hu becuz no 1 is the same lvl of skill to fully show a fair lvl game...

regardless we need iron man back so we can play this game properly.... we use to play fastest to play more games an play with more people but
lets be honest were getting old fastest went out the window we all play ef now ... and why do we need to speed up the games? no rush to rehost your lucky to get another game as ur prolly gonna be playin with the same people if no 1 leaves... faster is more balanced and theres really no excuse anymore to play anything faster then that other then the facts were all use to ef
Peon Posts: 8 Karma: +0/-0 **

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Re: HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced
« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2019, 07:55:40 PM »
If you haste your units before a fight the human player will have to slow them twice to be able to slow them once to remove haste and a second time to slow them...


??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

What????
you need only one, haste/ slow wont stack, both spell will remove if u use another slow->faster faster->slow


if u play faster orc player will put A click lust then he will go to his base and control something else, new exp/rax making more ogres
while human will sill micro

orc>>>human
haste dk> invis mage
you can block invis mage while hasted dk will kill your all units if u try block him, ofc buldings will block haste and invis

goes both anyways orc or hu can cntrl 1 2 3 4 there raxes an make knights / ogies wit out lookln at there base ... an since t he best way to micro wit humans is to run your knights away to wear off lust so u can easily micro u dont need to engage on the orcs terms u run knights away heal them engage after lust..
Peon Posts: 8 Karma: +0/-0 **

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Re: HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced
« Reply #11 on: January 21, 2019, 10:52:22 PM »
omg i jus read the rest of ur 1st post cel... an i wish i can take my minutes back.. im like scratching my head if i didnt see u on id assume u didnt even play wc2 XD ... i dont think you said 1 correct thing