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ELO Scores for Ladder and not only 3809  36

Grunt Posts: 109 Karma: +24/-0 ***

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Re: ELO Scores for Ladder and not only
« Reply #15 on: November 11, 2016, 09:02:04 PM »
I actually think the ELO ranking system has more interesting ramifications for a 2v2 ladder then a 1v1 ladder.  The ladder would still be individual players with scores ranked in descending order based on their overall team play.  You could compute the ELO of the team by averaging the players individual scores, and compute the points lost/won using the same formula you would use for singles, and then just apply that to both of the winners/losers appropriately.

This also creates interesting options for events that are somewhere in-between formal tournaments and casual games.  For example, four players of similar skill could get together and play a series where they rotate teams with each player's goal being to try to increase their individual score by outperforming the other three in aggregate over the course of the series.
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Re: ELO Scores for Ladder and not only
« Reply #16 on: November 11, 2016, 09:10:58 PM »
I actually think the ELO ranking system has more interesting ramifications for a 2v2 ladder then a 1v1 ladder.  The ladder would still be individual players with scores ranked in descending order based on their overall team play.  You could compute the ELO of the team by averaging the players individual scores, and compute the points lost/won using the same formula you would use for singles, and then just apply that to both of the winners/losers appropriately.

This also creates interesting options for events that are somewhere in-between formal tournaments and casual games.  For example, four players of similar skill could get together and play a series where they rotate teams with each player's goal being to try to increase their individual score by outperforming the other three in aggregate over the course of the series.
Nice try bro i will give u example. 4 skilled players playing 2x2  one team got 94  second got 811 4 going free dual while 9 playing 2x1 4 is wining game but 9 did nothing... Ranks, elo whatever will be never fair. And its bad idea some ppl will be  not playing cause " i dont want lose my points  and i will abuse with low skill players"

Player a> player b
B>c
C>a
Who is better?
Grunt Posts: 109 Karma: +24/-0 ***

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Re: ELO Scores for Ladder and not only
« Reply #17 on: November 11, 2016, 11:23:39 PM »
silence nup!
Ogre Mage Posts: 2345 Karma: +123/-179 ********

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Re: ELO Scores for Ladder and not only
« Reply #18 on: November 12, 2016, 01:21:33 AM »
szwagier gotta be one of the worst theorycrafters around
Axe Thrower Posts: 406 Karma: +24/-1 ****

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Re: ELO Scores for Ladder and not only
« Reply #19 on: November 12, 2016, 04:14:30 AM »
Hi,
Ladder and ELO ratings are two different things.

Or at least we want to keep them different!

Now computing ELO for matches with multiple players is something I'm considering.

I'll see how and when to realize it though!

Cheers
Administrator Ogre Mage Posts: 2066 Karma: +110/-110 *****

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Re: ELO Scores for Ladder and not only
« Reply #20 on: November 12, 2016, 08:12:55 AM »
on-page column sorting added! Sepi is crushing the 1v1s since we set this thing up...
Axe Thrower Posts: 406 Karma: +24/-1 ****

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Re: ELO Scores for Ladder and not only
« Reply #21 on: November 14, 2016, 09:54:54 PM »
Gj mousey! I hope this will help increasing activity!
This week I'm busy with my work but i might find sometime at Wednesday for us to continue the work.

Did you spoke to iL?

Cheerios
Death Knight Posts: 2717 Karma: +110/-97 *********

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Re: ELO Scores for Ladder and not only
« Reply #22 on: November 15, 2016, 07:32:34 AM »
Well guys i dont want to be the party breaker but ELO systeme is just retard rigged and waste of time.

Elo systeme just gonna allow peoples to abuse of the ladder.

Dont forget ELO ladder have always been our #1 ladder for many years.

So we already know what it is, but i think peoples just forget that.

Do you guys forget the integrated ladder in the game himself is a ELO systeme and as we all know this ladder have always been useless.

The only thing it bring is to see more newbs in the top ladder.

If newbs want to climb this ELO ladder they just need to play lot of other newbs steal ther points and they gonna be top 10 with 42-0.

At least in our actual ladder systeme winning over newbs not gonna bring you up in the ladder.

If you want to climb in our actual ladder you will have to beat someone ranked over you.

Im pretty sure too our actual ladder is not on perfect condition and need some work, but elo systeme not gonna bring nothing good where peoples can chose ther matches.

Elo systeme is a ladder systeme for random games that the systeme suppose to choose for you, elo systeme is not for peoples who choose ther own matchs cuz at the end it just finish as a rigged systeme.

Let's take by exemple someone like me... Im probably not the best, but im probably top 15 no doubt.

The things is i dont really used to play against newbe, i always play against the best player of the server, so if i start losing alot against them im gonna lose alot of ELO and gonna get rank as the worst player of the game...

While other newbs gonna play against other newbs and gonna start to climb over me.

Thats the kind of systeme ELO is for this game especially.

And thats the reason why ELO systeme is all random games choose by the systeme himself.

Like warcraft 3, starcraft II, Heroes of the storm, league of legend, dota, smith, overwatch, heartstone, etc, etc..

You cant choose who you want to play in ELO systeme, it make no sens lol.

GOOD luck.
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Re: ELO Scores for Ladder and not only
« Reply #23 on: November 15, 2016, 09:05:18 AM »
Hi Equinox,

In case you didn't notice. The ELO is complement to the Ladder system.
We are not making an ELO based ladder. We kept the ladder as is and we added an ELO computation.
The ELO is a useful measure for finding players similarly powered with you.

ELO mathematically gets stabilized after a while and converges to your actual score.
ELO inflation is very fast handled when you get a few defeats from lower ELO players than you.

Cheers
Death Knight Posts: 2717 Karma: +110/-97 *********

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Re: ELO Scores for Ladder and not only
« Reply #24 on: November 15, 2016, 09:33:39 AM »
Hi Equinox,

In case you didn't notice. The ELO is complement to the Ladder system.
We are not making an ELO based ladder. We kept the ladder as is and we added an ELO computation.
The ELO is a useful measure for finding players similarly powered with you.

ELO mathematically gets stabilized after a while and converges to your actual score.
ELO inflation is very fast handled when you get a few defeats from lower ELO players than you.

Cheers

How is that mathematically gets stabilized after a while and converges to my actual score.

We have an Elo ladder integrate in the game himself, go to the game click LADDER on the left pannel and you will see one, this ladder have been abuse for years and years by cheater and newbs.

Elo systeme dosent work when you choose your game dude, Elo systeme work when the game AUTOMATICALY choose game for you against similar Elo player as you.

And as you can see there no automatic random game seeking mode integrate in this game.. So Elo systeme make totally no sens in this game since peoples just have to choose against who they want to play or not.

I think you dont understand how ELO systeme work.

Elo systeme need to be manage by the game himself, not by the players lol.
Administrator Ogre Mage Posts: 2066 Karma: +110/-110 *****

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Re: ELO Scores for Ladder and not only
« Reply #25 on: November 15, 2016, 10:47:38 AM »
Well it's not hurting anything, it's not a bad thing to have even if it isn't perfect. It's less flawed then the built-in ELO ladder since it uses the same game requirements as the ladder, 1v1 classic-style maps only, so no abusing by playing pball or w/e.
"The Architect" Global Moderator Dragon Posts: 5063 Karma: +202/-111 *****

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Re: ELO Scores for Ladder and not only
« Reply #26 on: November 15, 2016, 10:48:32 AM »
"The Architect" Global Moderator Dragon Posts: 5063 Karma: +202/-111 *****

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Re: ELO Scores for Ladder and not only
« Reply #27 on: November 15, 2016, 10:52:29 AM »
Hi Equinox,

In case you didn't notice. The ELO is complement to the Ladder system.
We are not making an ELO based ladder. We kept the ladder as is and we added an ELO computation.
The ELO is a useful measure for finding players similarly powered with you.

ELO mathematically gets stabilized after a while and converges to your actual score.
ELO inflation is very fast handled when you get a few defeats from lower ELO players than you.

Cheers

How is that mathematically gets stabilized after a while and converges to my actual score.

We have an Elo ladder integrate in the game himself, go to the game click LADDER on the left pannel and you will see one, this ladder have been abuse for years and years by cheater and newbs.

Elo systeme dosent work when you choose your game dude, Elo systeme work when the game AUTOMATICALY choose game for you against similar Elo player as you.

And as you can see there no automatic random game seeking mode integrate in this game.. So Elo systeme make totally no sens in this game since peoples just have to choose against who they want to play or not.

I think you dont understand how ELO systeme work.

Elo systeme need to be manage by the game himself, not by the players lol.
I actually agree with you about this, that if you can carefully select your competition you can exploit the ELO scoring system to get a high score.  But that's why I like what Igognito said in the post you quoted.

In case you didn't notice. The ELO is complement to the Ladder system.
We are not making an ELO based ladder. We kept the ladder as is and we added an ELO computation.
The ladder ranking system is NOT based on Elo score.  The elo score is just a nice addition that gives you more information.  Therefore, there's not really much point in people trying to manipulate it, and even if they do, they won't rise to the top of the ladder.  So I don't think it's likely to be abused as it has been before.
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Re: ELO Scores for Ladder and not only
« Reply #28 on: November 15, 2016, 11:20:20 AM »
Hi Equinox,

In case you didn't notice. The ELO is complement to the Ladder system.
We are not making an ELO based ladder. We kept the ladder as is and we added an ELO computation.
The ELO is a useful measure for finding players similarly powered with you.

ELO mathematically gets stabilized after a while and converges to your actual score.
ELO inflation is very fast handled when you get a few defeats from lower ELO players than you.

Cheers

How is that mathematically gets stabilized after a while and converges to my actual score.

We have an Elo ladder integrate in the game himself, go to the game click LADDER on the left pannel and you will see one, this ladder have been abuse for years and years by cheater and newbs.

Elo systeme dosent work when you choose your game dude, Elo systeme work when the game AUTOMATICALY choose game for you against similar Elo player as you.

And as you can see there no automatic random game seeking mode integrate in this game.. So Elo systeme make totally no sens in this game since peoples just have to choose against who they want to play or not.

I think you dont understand how ELO systeme work.

Elo systeme need to be manage by the game himself, not by the players lol.
I actually agree with you about this, that if you can carefully select your competition you can exploit the ELO scoring system to get a high score.  But that's why I like what Igognito said in the post you quoted.

In case you didn't notice. The ELO is complement to the Ladder system.
We are not making an ELO based ladder. We kept the ladder as is and we added an ELO computation.
The ladder ranking system is NOT based on Elo score.  The elo score is just a nice addition that gives you more information.  Therefore, there's not really much point in people trying to manipulate it, and even if they do, they won't rise to the top of the ladder.  So I don't think it's likely to be abused as it has been before.

It give absolutly nothing, it just give impression some newbs are good and some good player are bad, its a shame for good player who get ther stats ruined by this non sens systeme.
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Re: ELO Scores for Ladder and not only
« Reply #29 on: November 15, 2016, 12:19:58 PM »
The ELO computes a comparable score based on an 90 degrees rotated exponential function.
As a result even if you try to cheat the system by playing all the time weak players you will stop earning ELO points (YES you can earn 0 points)
And if you lose you will lose Loads of points!
Thus over a large amount of games the score convergences to your real capacity!

The highest ELO does not necessary means the Best player! That is why we do not use it for Ladder.
ELO works with comparing 2 players! And tells you what is the chance of player A wins player B.
After the system has enough games the score will represent your ELO. If you get to have 1600 ELO. Players with 1400 or less should probably avoid you as they will have a low chance to win. But a 1500 player still has a good chance to win you.

Now if you are picking up on new players (1300 ELO but high K) and you (1600 with mid K) you will earn some points but the new players will soon drop to a low ELO and that will not give you any points whatsoever.
If I remember well (but I can do the math if people want) the line where you gain 0 ELO is around 400ELO difference.

To find Newbs with high ELO that will give you easy picks on points will be rare!

So in the end; ELO works.

Furthermore, lets take the worst case scenario. Someone uses N accounts on 2 pcs in order to boost his 1 account.
The person could use some accounts to lose and some to win in order to try and boost his 1 account at the end of MANY MANY games.
That 1 account will reach to have a hugely inflated ELO and no one will play with it! Or the Masters will play in order to increase their ELO and destroy the player.
Finally, in such an extreme case the admins could detect it and then ban reset/ban the account.

If people think that these math will help them to appreciate the ELO scores when I have time I can plot them for you.
I can even try to get you the optimal strategy for breaking the formula!
But do you actually think it worth's it?

The whole point here is to promote people of using their Account in order to increase their ELO. Also it gives a tool to the somewhat new players to select opponents.

cheers