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Theory of evolution 1346  45

Ogre Mage Posts: 1855 Karma: +81/-4 The General ********

~ToRa~

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Re: Theory of evolution
« Reply #30 on: May 23, 2017, 09:31:39 AM »
^^Example of an intolerant evolutionist.

@Lambchops I'm willing to bet you've never traveled outside of the  Australia/American/Euro zone. The more you travel the more beliefs you will come across.   
Axe Thrower Posts: 289 Karma: +19/-0 ****

Igognito

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Re: Theory of evolution
« Reply #31 on: May 23, 2017, 10:20:31 AM »
Lol,

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2017/05/22/europe-birthplace-mankind-not-africa-scientists-find/#

You are all from Greece :-P

By the way @~ToRa~, I tried to explain it before but A theory is not something you believe in. People that support the Evolution Theory do not believe in the evolution theory (this is purely an issue of semantics)

A scientific theory is a Theory or better a Hypothesis which scientists try to prove.
Some Theories we will never prove them even if the are correct (That is proven by the Incompleteness Theorem of Godel)

Just for the semantics, take a note to the following:
Theorem is proven.
Theory is indicated by the evidence but not hard mathematically proven.

Gravity is a Theory!!!! not a Theorem. In general most aspects of physics are Laws or theories not Theorems. Theorems are in Math.

What means that Gravity is a Theory? It means that we can not 100% prove that the model we have is correct!
Newton presented a model that fits the experimental data and we are still using that! Well scientists have extended it over time but that is a detail.

To simply put it for you: To say you believe in the Theory of the Evolution is wrong by the semantics.
The Theory of Evolution by Darwin (with all modifications that have been added by later scientists) is currently the best model we have for explaining the bio diversity of the planet and the appearance of Humans.
All experimental evidence point to that and by the scientific methodology the Theory of Evolution is widely accepted.

This means nothing about the existence of god or not. Of course, it does mean that God did not took clay to form us as we are now!
If we presume that god (by the Adam & Eva PoV) created us to his own image, we have evolved further than that. Our creation was much more hairy with tails and fangs and big nasty teeth.
And even before that we have indication that we where lizards that come from the sea! (This are indications, as we miss links) But up to a few million years we can trace our origin and see that we where like Chimpanzees.

So the point I'm trying to make to you. Is that it is not an issue of Belief. The theory comes with experimental evidence to back it down. The scientific world accepts the evidence and has establish it as is Newtons Theory for Gravity established.

Maybe one day a better theory will appear that will cover better the data. Then the Evolution theory will be obsolete.

For now, just look at it as a mechanism of nature like gravity. Because that is exactly what Darwin was talking about. All species on the planet Evolve based on a model! Darwin gave the best model to describe that mechanism!

Regarding your personal belief, most probably it does not even contradict the Evolution Theory. Even the wildest religious theories do not contradict the Evolution theory.
You just must realize that there is a parallel mechanism in play and humans from generation to generation mutate!

Axe Thrower Posts: 400 Karma: +33/-0 ****

Lambchops

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Re: Theory of evolution
« Reply #32 on: May 24, 2017, 12:18:42 AM »
^^Example of an intolerant evolutionist.
Please don't start name-calling. I am neither intolerant nor an "evolutionist".

However implausable I find your beliefs, my response as demonstrated by this thread is to provide information and logical argument, with a minimum of opinion.

You stared a thread about evolution, clearly with the direct intention of arguing against it. You did not start a thread about your own beliefs and attempt to explain why they are true. Your entire premise was one of negativity towards thinking that contradicts your beliefs.

If I created a thread called "Creationism" then posted "Now I ask you please give me an example of observable evidence of creationism", then continued to refute and LOL at any replies - that might be considered antisocial, perhaps even intolerant, but in this instance you have invited comment and I would invite you to read actually consider what I have written before you decide to start name-calling, and then even if you still think it's a good idea, to refrain from it.

Furthermore I would like to point out that "evolutionist" is a propoganda term invented by religious extremists in an attempt to project the image that views contradictory to their doctrine belong to a small sub-set of the community, when in fact the reverse is true. i.e. Christians are a minority sub-set of humans, and fundementalist Christians are a minority sub-set of Christians.

If you want to quote extremist propoganda in general discussion that is your choice, but please don't direct it personally towards me.

@Lambchops I'm willing to bet you've never traveled outside of the  Australia/American/Euro zone.

(a) incorrect
(b) irellivant

The more you travel the more beliefs you will come across.

People in every country on earth understand science and logic .... it's the norm. That is why science works, because it is all about truth. Anybody from any culture can propose anything as long as they have the evidence to back it up, and anybody can provide logical argument and evidence to either support or refute it. It is understood and participated in all over the world. What world do you live in?
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

HERE IS THE CRUX OF THIS ARGUMENT: THERE IS NO ARGUMENT

Take, for example, string theory. There are a lot of people who think it is correct, however it is not proven AND there are also a lot of other valid theories out there (see HERE for example).

There are no genuine alternative theories to evolution and nobody even presenting alternatives. People have been conducting research based on it for many years, and nobody has said, "uh... I think this research is based on a flawed premise". There is only people who just don't WANT to believe it.

The massive evidence for evolution has been presented, discussed and accepted by the community. That's a done deal, and plain common-sense I might add. If you don't like someone else's explaination you have to come up with evidence to refute it, and preferably also a counter-proposal. You have neither of these things because they don't exist.

Name-calling won't help your case. You have no case.
Ogre Mage Posts: 1855 Karma: +81/-4 The General ********

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Re: Theory of evolution
« Reply #33 on: May 24, 2017, 02:29:46 AM »
@Lambchops you write very angry lol. Do your veins pop out your head while you type?

@ingognito
To simply put it for you: To say you believe in the Theory of the Evolution is wrong by the semantics.
The Theory of Evolution by Darwin (with all modifications that have been added by later scientists) is currently the best model we have for explaining the bio diversity of the planet and the appearance of Humans.
All experimental evidence point to that and by the scientific methodology the Theory of Evolution is widely accepted.

When you say widely accepted whom are you referring to?

Gravity is a completely different topic then the one we are discussing here. Your right, gravity it is a theory like evolution.
Scientist's use it as a way to explain an apple falling from a tree, the rotation of the planets, the distances between galaxies, formation of black holes, etc. It's a very broad theory when you read deep into it.

Fossil records do not prove humans evolving from chimpanzees. Most fossil records that are found are "bone fragments." Scientists can make guesses and theorize on how early humans looked based on bone fragments. However it is still all theory.

Regarding my personal beliefs I already said I don't disbelieve in evolution. However I recognize that it is just a scientific belief which is subject to change by scientists.
The point is not to attack you and say that evolution is a false hood and you need to start following a religion.
The point is to show that evolution and many other scientific theories are "beliefs." They are subject to change based upon new evidence and observations. Much of it hasn't been proven and can't be proven.       
Axe Thrower Posts: 400 Karma: +33/-0 ****

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Re: Theory of evolution
« Reply #34 on: May 24, 2017, 02:46:18 AM »
Lambchops you write very angry lol. Do your veins pop out your head
while you type?

lol? Logical argument = anger?? You wish. It was you who resorted to name-calling because you had no valid reply. Weak. Very disappointing.
Ogre Mage Posts: 1855 Karma: +81/-4 The General ********

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Re: Theory of evolution
« Reply #35 on: May 24, 2017, 03:11:04 AM »
^^In truth haven't really read most of your works. Too much bold and italics.
Axe Thrower Posts: 289 Karma: +19/-0 ****

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Re: Theory of evolution
« Reply #36 on: May 24, 2017, 09:01:23 AM »
As I'm not an expert on the field of Evolution and neither do I care to become one I will only point out that https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution has more than 300 references!

Gravity has only 45 references....

I think that is enough to state that the Evolution Theory is widely accepted from the scientific society.

Tora, if you haven't figured out yet my point is that you can not use the Term Believe for a Theory! People that support a Theory do not believe in it. (they might believe at its correctness)

Whether Evolution is correct or not is a different question which I can not answer. I can tell you that the scientific evidence indicate that the Evolution Theory is the most probable explanation for the biodiversity of the planet.

Whether we come from a family of apes or not, that is a very specific question that scientists still try to find the missing links.
Fossils are good evidence by the way. Having bones as fossils gives a lot of information.

A personal linguistic advice:

Regarding my personal beliefs I already said I don't disbelieve in evolution. However I recognize that it is just a scientific belief which is subject to change by scientists.

If you rephrase the above as:
Regarding my personal opinion I already said I don't reject evolution. However I recognize that it is just a scientific theory which is subject to change by scientists.

then your statement would be semantically correct.

The point is not to attack you and say that evolution is a false hood and you need to start following a religion.
No one ever said you said something like that. Also no one actually is trying to make you accept the Evolution Theory.
I'm just trying to point out that there is an error in the semantics of your argument.

The point is to show that evolution and many other scientific theories are "beliefs." They are subject to change based upon new evidence and observations. Much of it hasn't been proven and can't be proven.       

Yes it is clear, that your opinion is that Evolution is a belief. But what I'm arguing is that it is a Theory and not a belief. Theories by definition lack completeness and are revised as new data are processed. That does not change the fact that it is a Theory. People do not believe in Theories, Might though believe in the correctness of a theory in the lack of evidence.

To back down your point of view in a scientific way:

We have collected enough information for Evolution Theory in general to be considered correct. But we lack evolution links for the origins of specific species, such as Humans, as it is hard to observe the changes over a span of millions of years.

in other words: Evolution Theory is experimentally confirmed. For specific species, we lack information for their full evolution chain.

Thus to put it in your words: Yes, Evolution Theory in general is proven but people still need to have a belief that Humans originated from Apes and before that Lizards and before that fishes as we still miss links for that.

The semantics of your words play a big role in this topic. You can not refute Evolution Theory as there is scientific evidence. You can though claim that we are not certain about the origins of Human as we lack some links there. (Still the existing evidence put the Ape etc. as the most probable ancestors)

Cheerios!
ohh and guys this is a calm fun conversation nothing to get passionate about it.
A good opportunity to try your skills in arguing! In practice we are using the dialectic approach to a topic! (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialectic)
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eyyy im walkin here

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Re: Theory of evolution
« Reply #37 on: May 24, 2017, 10:16:09 AM »
^^In truth haven't really read most of your works. Too much bold and italics.
lol what a troll

I havent posted in this thread because i figured it's not worth the time arguing about it, but after seeing that post that goes double haha.

denying evolution is like saying the earth is flat.  you can say it if you want, idc.  it just makes you look like a crank
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Re: Theory of evolution
« Reply #38 on: May 27, 2017, 04:42:44 AM »
^^In truth haven't really read most of your works. Too much bold and italics.


Ahh that explains a lot... so font changes means someone is angry in your world? Carefull there - you don't want to fall off the edge of it ;D

Do you mind me asking how exactly you were intending to receive this "example of observable evidence" without reading the replies? .....were you waiting for a burning bush with a youtube link attached to it perhaps? ;)




Ogre Mage Posts: 1855 Karma: +81/-4 The General ********

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Re: Theory of evolution
« Reply #39 on: May 27, 2017, 06:47:56 AM »
@Lambchops you write very angry lol. Do your veins pop out your head while you type?

And ingog I will respond to ur reply just haven't gotten a chance to type a reply.
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Re: Theory of evolution
« Reply #40 on: May 28, 2017, 06:59:56 AM »
sooooooo, if something takes millions/billions of years to happen, it mustn't have happened and the only solution is god. gotcha
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Re: Theory of evolution
« Reply #41 on: May 28, 2017, 10:05:41 AM »
he said evolution not real because not observable, i asked what are vestiges then, he then asked a question about fish.
Ogre Mage Posts: 1855 Karma: +81/-4 The General ********

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Re: Theory of evolution
« Reply #42 on: May 28, 2017, 10:52:53 AM »
You keep bringing up religion lol. Where did I post anything about religion?
All I'm saying is evolution is not provable thus it is a theory and thus is a belief. You can throw all the scientific research u want at it but at the end of the day you can't prove humans evolved from a monkey or whatever.
There is no observable evidence of any species turning from one kind into another. Like a cat turning into a dog etc.
Axe Thrower Posts: 400 Karma: +33/-0 ****

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Re: Theory of evolution
« Reply #43 on: May 29, 2017, 01:28:24 AM »
Humans did not evolve from monkeys.
Cats do not turn into dogs.

Evolution has been proved, because the mechanism has been proved. It does not take millions of years to prove that:

   a) DNA replication occasionally suffers from random flaws.
   b) Changes in DNA will affect the physiology of the organism that it produces.
   c) Organisms who's physiology is better suited to their environment will be more successfull at replicating their DNA

That's really all you need to prove, everything else is just a logical extension of those FACTS. Just as I dont have to actually throw myself into the sun to prove I will be burnt, just knowing it's hot, and that hot things will burn me is sufficiant.


Ogre Mage Posts: 1855 Karma: +81/-4 The General ********

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Re: Theory of evolution
« Reply #44 on: June 10, 2017, 01:19:55 PM »