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Discussion on the Origins of the Universe, Life, and Mankind 1331  48

Death Knight Posts: 3146 Karma: +57/-14 *********

marx was right

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Re: Discussion on the Origins of the Universe, Life, and Mankind
« Reply #15 on: September 19, 2017, 11:53:38 AM »
I consider myself a hopeful agnostic. I don't believe in God, but I would like to. I would love to be able to convince myself that God exists


why? doesn't seem like something to be excited over, more disturbing than anything. god is letting the earth slowly degenerate to capitalists and capitalism.
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Re: Discussion on the Origins of the Universe, Life, and Mankind
« Reply #16 on: September 19, 2017, 12:01:42 PM »
Gee, why would it be nice for there to be an eternal paradise in the afterlife instead of just the rot and decay of your corpse?
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Re: Discussion on the Origins of the Universe, Life, and Mankind
« Reply #17 on: September 19, 2017, 12:15:48 PM »
your rotting corpse helps a tree grow.

and what the hell is paradise? that's the most Utopian garbage idea of all time.
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Re: Discussion on the Origins of the Universe, Life, and Mankind
« Reply #18 on: September 19, 2017, 12:22:45 PM »
I was listening to this and was so moved by this beautiful hymn that I want to share it with everyone!

And Can it be That I should Gain - YouTube

We look around at the world and see chaos, disaster, people hurting, people dying, and if we aren't looking in the right place, it can seem hopeless! It can look and feel like this world has been abandoned to its own devices.

This isn't so!

God loves people so much that He took every evil on Himself, He took all sins and suffered for us! He chose to be mocked, insulted, whipped, beaten, and crucified for us. He loves us dearly!

Of course we don't understand everything now, many things are mysteries, but when we see a love like that, a love that sacrifices self and takes punishment in our place, we can trust that love, we can trust that voice.

I love God because He loved me and died for me!

What blessed assurance this sweet sentence gives! I know that my Redeemer lives!

Praise the Lord for His great love and mercy!

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Re: Discussion on the Origins of the Universe, Life, and Mankind
« Reply #19 on: September 19, 2017, 12:23:07 PM »
your rotting corpse helps a tree grow.

and what the hell is paradise? that's the most Utopian garbage idea of all time.
Paradise can be anything.  If you can imagine a god, surely you can imagine a paradise.  It's funny that you're so profoundly atheist that you can't even say it would be cool if there was a heaven, and a god, and the god has a big white beard and he's chilling up in the clouds flanked by angels playing harps, but the harps are metal as fuck, and everyone is overcome with love and joy or whatever.
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Re: Discussion on the Origins of the Universe, Life, and Mankind
« Reply #20 on: September 19, 2017, 12:25:02 PM »
I mean, this probably isn't even what Lambchops was going for and it's likely he just likes the idea of there being a god, but it's such an easy answer.  Of course a literal paradise would be good my man, and, heck, while you're up there your corpse is still gonna be helping trees grow or feeding worms or whatever too, so it's win-win!
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Re: Discussion on the Origins of the Universe, Life, and Mankind
« Reply #21 on: September 19, 2017, 12:31:49 PM »
your rotting corpse helps a tree grow.

and what the hell is paradise? that's the most Utopian garbage idea of all time.
Paradise can be anything.  If you can imagine a god, surely you can imagine a paradise.  It's funny that you're so profoundly atheist that you can't even say it would be cool if there was a heaven, and a god, and the god has a big white beard and he's chilling up in the clouds flanked by angels playing harps, but the harps are metal as fuck, and everyone is overcome with love and joy or whatever.

of course the idea of living in a paradise is good. you can invent all sorts of ideas in your head that would be cool. but that's all it is , ideas. and the idea of paradise is so absurdly fantastical it borders on mental illness to believe in it. there's no universal idea of paradise, people would have their own ideas of what paradise is. women's ideas of paradise would differ from men's. an adult's would differ from a child's etc.. there are depictions of paradise where milk flows like waterfalls, but how the hell is that paradise to lactose intolerant people or someone who just hates milk? it's a vague fantasy. and why would a god responsible to letting capitalism run rampant on the garbage earth be the one to spawn it?
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Re: Discussion on the Origins of the Universe, Life, and Mankind
« Reply #22 on: September 19, 2017, 12:36:31 PM »
The best experiences of my life have been in church. The mystical communion in the blood of Christ that we share with all believers, forgiveness of sins, hearing the Word of God, the friendships and relationships, the love and support, singing hymns of praise midst a throng of fellow believers to the God that made us and bought us back from slavery to sin, nothing, and I mean nothing can top that!

The pleasures in life God gave us to enjoy, the very best things in life such as amazing connecting and laughing with cherished people over amazing food, the delightful ecstasy of physical intimacy between a man and woman who love each other, the beauty of children's laughter, the miracle of the conception and birth of a brand new child, the beauty of nature, the joy of music, the satisfaction of hard work, the joy of solving challenges, the fun in hobbies and games, the exhilaration of a roller coaster, the specialness of friends and friendship, the wonderful peace of rest from work...everything that is good and beautiful and worth pursuing in life...it ALL PALES in comparison to what HEAVEN WILL BE!!

Think of it!

The One who made each of us and each and every pleasure for us to enjoy...think of being with HIM and the community of saints in a place free of sin, death, pain, evil, hate...forever!

I can't wait! :)

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Re: Discussion on the Origins of the Universe, Life, and Mankind
« Reply #23 on: September 19, 2017, 12:59:03 PM »
your rotting corpse helps a tree grow.

and what the hell is paradise? that's the most Utopian garbage idea of all time.
Paradise can be anything.  If you can imagine a god, surely you can imagine a paradise.  It's funny that you're so profoundly atheist that you can't even say it would be cool if there was a heaven, and a god, and the god has a big white beard and he's chilling up in the clouds flanked by angels playing harps, but the harps are metal as fuck, and everyone is overcome with love and joy or whatever.

of course the idea of living in a paradise is good. you can invent all sorts of ideas in your head that would be cool. but that's all it is , ideas. and the idea of paradise is so absurdly fantastical it borders on mental illness to believe in it. there's no universal idea of paradise, people would have their own ideas of what paradise is. women's ideas of paradise would differ from men's. an adult's would differ from a child's etc.. there are depictions of paradise where milk flows like waterfalls, but how the hell is that paradise to lactose intolerant people or someone who just hates milk? it's a vague fantasy. and why would a god responsible to letting capitalism run rampant on the garbage earth be the one to spawn it?
But Lambchops didn't even say he believed in it; he said he didn't really but that it'd be nice.

Anyway, it's simple to say that in a paradise, none of those contradictions would matter.  The souls who want a land of milk and honey would get it while the lactose intolerant person would be cured of that intolerance and the child's paradise would be full of puppies and toys or something even better than puppies and toys that we can't even imagine because it's not of the worldly realm and so on.  This is easy.

God can let capitalism run rampant because He chose to give humanity complete freedom, and if we suffer in this world, so much the greater will our joy be in the next; our suffering in the temporal sphere is minuscule compared to the eternal paradise of God's kingdom, our concerns are meaningless and all fades to nothing as our pain is completely washed over by God's love, as we transcend this world for the next.  Blah blah blah.  You don't need to believe any of this, but you do need to expand your mind if you don't even have the imagination to conceive of these things.
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Re: Discussion on the Origins of the Universe, Life, and Mankind
« Reply #24 on: September 19, 2017, 01:00:30 PM »
this demonstrates well why karl marx called religion the "opiate of the masses".  it seems dangerous to think this way because it keeps to passive to real world issues. "yea sure the world is being destroyed but who cares, we'll be in paradise after we die." all the while the bourgeoisie laughs while they are already living in paradise on earth. in the end there was never any heaven or hell, no afterlife at all.
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Re: Discussion on the Origins of the Universe, Life, and Mankind
« Reply #25 on: September 19, 2017, 01:24:31 PM »
Well, that's completely separate from trying to make logical arguments against the likelihood of any religion (always a futile waste of time).

Of course I don't very much buy this argument either; that's not quite what Marx said (he framed religion as a reaction from oppression, not a contribution toward oppression).  Lenin too: "It would be bourgeois narrow-mindedness to forget that the yoke of religion that weighs upon mankind is merely a product and reflection of the economic yoke within society."

People don't generally write off the only existence they've ever known in service of religion, and there are plenty of ways to incorporate religion into radical philosophy.  There are issues with the Church and various denominations basically being instruments of the ruling classes, of course, as is the case with most existing structures and organizations that must be destroyed in this world to build the next.
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Re: Discussion on the Origins of the Universe, Life, and Mankind
« Reply #26 on: September 19, 2017, 01:37:24 PM »
It is not true that Christians are passive about real world issues.

Christians are continually praying for victims of sickness and catastrophe, donating money and goods and food to the needy, opposing oppression, abuse, abortion, and other evils, and so on.

Many acts of love and kindness are unsung, unknown, seemingly minor things that make the life of someone else better.

One Christian woman I know took in her husband's elderly grandmother to live with and take care of. Most people just dump them off in some facility, but she is showing love to her husband and his grandmother by sacrificing time, freedom, money, effort to care for another person in spite of her having a bunch of kids of her own and a really full schedule. The grandmother's life is made better by this.

It is not at all true that Christianity makes people passive.

Indifference and passivity is a much more likely response from those who believe everything in existence is a meaningless, random accident that came from nowhere and is going nowhere. Human life has no value and no meaning if it is indeed an accidental collection of atoms that randomly came about.

If you look at the amazing design of the human body, however, it is anything but random or accidental.

It's a beautifully designed machine that is so much more than a machine. From the complexity of a single cell, to the wonder of the functioning of every organ and system, to the jaw-dropping enigma which is the human brain, we are indeed, as the Bible states, fearfully and wonderfully made!!



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Re: Discussion on the Origins of the Universe, Life, and Mankind
« Reply #27 on: September 19, 2017, 02:00:00 PM »
Of course I don't very much buy this argument either; that's not quite what Marx said (he framed religion as a reaction from oppression, not a contribution toward oppression).

yea. there's no contradiction to what i said, paradise is a significant idea of the oppressed. the issue arises when you start believing it so deeply that you stop caring about the real world.


It is not true that Christians are passive about real world issues.
that's true. there are communist christians.

If you look at the amazing design of the human body, however, it is anything but random or accidental.

It's a beautifully designed machine that is so much more than a machine. From the complexity of a single cell, to the wonder of the functioning of every organ and system, to the jaw-dropping enigma which is the human brain, we are indeed, as the Bible states, fearfully and wonderfully made!!

anyone who studies biology is probably in awe of the human body, but also understands its numerous flaws. when you make this argument, you are acknowledging god makes mistakes - and this isn't even touching on the subject of birth defects, genetic abnormalities and such. maybe you'll then make the argument that they weren't mistakes but purposefully done for reasons only god knows, but then it's disturbing to believe god would curse a child with leukemia or another abhorrent torturous disease.
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Re: Discussion on the Origins of the Universe, Life, and Mankind
« Reply #28 on: September 19, 2017, 02:38:27 PM »
If a pilot crashes a jet plane and then the plane is damaged, that doesn't prove that the jet plane wasn't amazingly designed.

You have to keep in mind, marx, that the original creation was designed perfect and flawless and sinless.

Mankind rebelled against God, disobeyed, and wrecked it, bringing the penalty upon ourselves of the curse and evil.

Work became hard for men, the ground would produce thorns and thistles, and work (which was part of the good and perfect creation) becomes burdensome, grueling, and difficult.

Childbirthing for women would become painful.

Let me share a beautiful passage from Romans 8!

Present Suffering and Future Glory

18 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19 For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that[h] the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.

22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have? 25 But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.

26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. 27 And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God.

28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
More Than Conquerors

31 What, then, shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34 Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36 As it is written:

“For your sake we face death all day long;
    we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.”[j]

37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,[k] neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
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Re: Discussion on the Origins of the Universe, Life, and Mankind
« Reply #29 on: September 19, 2017, 02:45:56 PM »
Thought experiment:
What if heaven is real and we had it and it was the USSR, and the devil (America) destroyed it?