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1 second+ input delay issues 162  19

Peon Posts: 5 Karma: +0/-0 **

willigetaname

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1 second+ input delay issues
« on: November 09, 2017, 03:11:11 PM »
Like the title says, I am having much too much delay on any unit I try to control.

I don't have delay issues while in single player, but on multiplayer I have the 1 second delay even on low latency.

I have tried running my own private server to test this out myself(1-2ms). The issue still persists despite connecting directly to myself.

I have run through the port forwarding troubleshooting just in case it may be related. Forwarded ports 6112-6119 on both UDP/TCP. uPNP is on. Firewall is not blocking warcraft 2.

I've tried these on both Warcraft 2 Battlenet edition and the latest combat edition.

What exactly is the solution to this delay problem? It's bizarre. All I want to do is to have the ability of doing FFA with computer players(don't see option on single player custom campaign)  :(
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Re: 1 second+ input delay issues
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2017, 04:31:57 PM »
uh bump..?

do you guys service requests around here?
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Re: 1 second+ input delay issues
« Reply #2 on: November 13, 2017, 05:56:11 AM »
I don't have delay issues while in single player, but on multiplayer I have the 1 second delay even on low latency.
What's the result of /ping on the server when you in game?
What's the result of "ping server.war2.ru" in your computer command line?

Should be something like that:
<50ms - excellent latency
50-100ms - good
100-300 - quite normal
300-500 - bad
>500 - unplayable.
If command line ping shows bad latency, the only way is to change your internet connection i think.
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Re: 1 second+ input delay issues
« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2017, 07:36:07 AM »
What you are describing is lag. If it is not noticably lagging the game (interrupting/slowing down the game) then it is most likely regular packet loss, i.e. your ISP or some server along the route regularly dropping a certian % of the UDP traffic.

WC2 was originally written for the IPX network protocol in the '90s and was then ported to UDP for use on the internet.

The issue is that in modern terms UDP is generally used for lossy traffic such as video or VOIP streaming where loss of a given % of packets just results in a corresponding loss in audio/visual quality, and TCP is used for connections that require guaranteed delivery of packets.

Because of this some providers will routinely drop UDP packets as a way of shedding load. This is bad for WC2 and will often produce the exact symptons you are describing.

With due respect to iL, he has the luxury of playing from Europe. The /ping stats he quotes would no doubt be accurate when playing from there. Myself being in Australia I often have >500 ms ping and that can still be very responsive. From Europe a >500 ping would definately be highlighting a problem with the connection that would be causing lag. From Australia 400+ ping is not unusual and can still be excellent even with WC2 set for low latency.

My current connection (temporary problem) is AWFUL, however it still reports lower ping times than my previous ISP which was pretty good.

Unless it is a local routing issue with your LAN (which is unlikely) the solution is to stop the decemation of your UDP traffic. There are 2 ways of (possibly) achieving this.

1) Change to a different ISP - i.e. some cheap ISPs buy and on-sell bandwidth from other providers that is de-prioritized by the parent provider, and therefore much less reliable.

2) Encapsulate your UDP packets inside TCP packets by using a VPN. This way servers will not be able to identify it as "droppable" and MAY be far less likely interrupt it. Although adding the VPN layer actually increases latency in the connection, if it stops packet loss it can cause a dramatic improvement in lag.

It all depends on your geographical (and political!) location, your ISP and their infastructure and the individual characteristics of any VPN you may be using. You may have to experiment a bit to get the best results.

If you are technically minded there is an extended discussion on the WC2 network mechanics HERE


.... and I havn't even bothered mention that if you're using some overloaded WIFI with a bad signal and your mum surfing Facebook then stop bothering everyone and go play farmville  ;)






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Re: 1 second+ input delay issues
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2017, 07:50:25 AM »
All I want to do is to have the ability of doing FFA with computer players(don't see option on single player custom campaign)

Oh.
Just noticed this line.

Do you mean without any other players in the game? Just you vs comps?

You can do this by:

- log in to the server
- [Create] game
- Select map, type a name and make game type melee [OK]
- Use the drop-downs to change a few of the players to "computer" and start

Once the game has started you should have zero lag.
At this point you can actually switch off you router and keep playing. You will get a message saying "Your connection to battle.net has been lost" but the game will continue, if there are no other people playing it is all happening on your local machine.

If you have any lag at this point it is an issue with your computer.
Peon Posts: 5 Karma: +0/-0 **

willigetaname

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Re: 1 second+ input delay issues
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2017, 06:17:33 PM »
I don't have delay issues while in single player, but on multiplayer I have the 1 second delay even on low latency.

What's the result of /ping on the server when you in game?
What's the result of "ping server.war2.ru" in your computer command line?

Should be something like that:
<50ms - excellent latency
50-100ms - good
100-300 - quite normal
300-500 - bad
>500 - unplayable.
If command line ping shows bad latency, the only way is to change your internet connection i think.


30-31ms is what I normally get for cmd ping. However, when I'm on server it's around 250ms.I live in Canada, so I shouldn't be getting 30ms unless there's another server nearby me.

My internet connection is fine. I have a fiber connection that doesn't drop packets.

What you are describing is lag. If it is not noticably lagging the game (interrupting/slowing down the game) then it is most likely regular packet loss, i.e. your ISP or some server along the route regularly dropping a certian % of the UDP traffic.

WC2 was originally written for the IPX network protocol in the '90s and was then ported to UDP for use on the internet.

The issue is that in modern terms UDP is generally used for lossy traffic such as video or VOIP streaming where loss of a given % of packets just results in a corresponding loss in audio/visual quality, and TCP is used for connections that require guaranteed delivery of packets.

Because of this some providers will routinely drop UDP packets as a way of shedding load. This is bad for WC2 and will often produce the exact symptons you are describing.

With due respect to iL, he has the luxury of playing from Europe. The /ping stats he quotes would no doubt be accurate when playing from there. Myself being in Australia I often have >500 ms ping and that can still be very responsive. From Europe a >500 ping would definately be highlighting a problem with the connection that would be causing lag. From Australia 400+ ping is not unusual and can still be excellent even with WC2 set for low latency.

My current connection (temporary problem) is AWFUL, however it still reports lower ping times than my previous ISP which was pretty good.

Unless it is a local routing issue with your LAN (which is unlikely) the solution is to stop the decemation of your UDP traffic. There are 2 ways of (possibly) achieving this.

1) Change to a different ISP - i.e. some cheap ISPs buy and on-sell bandwidth from other providers that is de-prioritized by the parent provider, and therefore much less reliable.

2) Encapsulate your UDP packets inside TCP packets by using a VPN. This way servers will not be able to identify it as "droppable" and MAY be far less likely interrupt it. Although adding the VPN layer actually increases latency in the connection, if it stops packet loss it can cause a dramatic improvement in lag.

It all depends on your geographical (and political!) location, your ISP and their infastructure and the individual characteristics of any VPN you may be using. You may have to experiment a bit to get the best results.

If you are technically minded there is an extended discussion on the WC2 network mechanics HERE


.... and I havn't even bothered mention that if you're using some overloaded WIFI with a bad signal and your mum surfing Facebook then stop bothering everyone and go play farmville  ;)



Thanks for trying to educate me. I do understand how UDP works vs TCP already.

I can play games using UDP connection over to europe and australia already without packet loss on a different format(kaillera). So I shouldn't be getting these issues. I already thought that this wouldn't be an issue on warcraft 2 online because I'm not actively connecting to anyone else during a game I host.

My connection is extremely consistent and I am the only one using it. It is fiber and I am on ethernet: http://beta.speedtest.net/result/6791060448

Like I said above, my ping when on war2.ru server is around 250ms.

My ISP is definitely not changing seeing as I don't drop packets on other platforms using UDP. VPN wouldn't solve this issue due to it being an internal delay put on when a network game is played.

All I want to do is to have the ability of doing FFA with computer players(don't see option on single player custom campaign)


Oh.
Just noticed this line.

Do you mean without any other players in the game? Just you vs comps?

You can do this by:

- log in to the server
- [Create] game
- Select map, type a name and make game type melee [OK]
- Use the drop-downs to change a few of the players to "computer" and start

Once the game has started you should have zero lag.
At this point you can actually switch off you router and keep playing. You will get a message saying "Your connection to battle.net has been lost" but the game will continue, if there are no other people playing it is all happening on your local machine.

If you have any lag at this point it is an issue with your computer.



Yes. I mean only with computers.

I am aware I can do the ffa game creation on server, and that's what I've been trying to do. Is there an alternate to this for single player? Doesn't seem like it.

I've timed how much delay I get offline and online. It's a negligible difference between the two(on low latency).:

offline single player: 0 delay
0ms(my test server): 0.8 of a second delay for an action to deploy
250ms(war2.ru): 0.82 of a second delay for an action to deploy


How exactly is this a problem with my computer? Seems like that's the go to if you don't know what the issue is.

Explain to me how this delay is possible on 0ms still.
Administrator Ogre Posts: 1043 Karma: +100/-9 *****

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Re: 1 second+ input delay issues
« Reply #6 on: November 14, 2017, 09:04:03 AM »
30-31ms is what I normally get for cmd ping. However, when I'm on server it's around 250ms.I live in Canada, so I shouldn't be getting 30ms unless there's another server nearby me.

My internet connection is fine. I have a fiber connection that doesn't drop packets.

That is strange, still no idea how to fix that...

I am aware I can do the ffa game creation on server, and that's what I've been trying to do. Is there an alternate to this for single player? Doesn't seem like it.

you can use offlinebattlenet from here: http://en.war2.ru/downloads/ to setup your local bnet on 127.0.0.1
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Re: 1 second+ input delay issues
« Reply #7 on: November 14, 2017, 09:33:09 AM »
if u installed a ddraw...it may be the problem.im using i think the 2 version, 4v cpu lags me like hell! os win7.

offline single player: 0 delay
0ms(my test server): 0.8 of a second delay for an action to deploy
250ms(war2.ru): 0.82 of a second delay for an action to deploy

 :blank: wierd

lamb-".... and I havn't even bothered mention that if you're using some overloaded WIFI with a bad signal and your mum surfing Facebook then stop bothering everyone and go play farmville  ;)" loool fucking fb its gotta go under soon!
Peon Posts: 5 Karma: +0/-0 **

willigetaname

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Re: 1 second+ input delay issues
« Reply #8 on: November 14, 2017, 09:27:31 PM »
30-31ms is what I normally get for cmd ping. However, when I'm on server it's around 250ms.I live in Canada, so I shouldn't be getting 30ms unless there's another server nearby me.

My internet connection is fine. I have a fiber connection that doesn't drop packets.

That is strange, still no idea how to fix that...

I am aware I can do the ffa game creation on server, and that's what I've been trying to do. Is there an alternate to this for single player? Doesn't seem like it.

you can use offlinebattlenet from here: http://en.war2.ru/downloads/ to setup your local bnet on 127.0.0.1


I have done the setup with offlinebattlenet already. I've tried with both my 127.0.0.1 address and 192.x.x.x private address. Same delayed result with both.

if u installed a ddraw...it may be the problem.im using i think the 2 version, 4v cpu lags me like hell! os win7.

offline single player: 0 delay
0ms(my test server): 0.8 of a second delay for an action to deploy
250ms(war2.ru): 0.82 of a second delay for an action to deploy

 :blank: wierd

lamb-".... and I havn't even bothered mention that if you're using some overloaded WIFI with a bad signal and your mum surfing Facebook then stop bothering everyone and go play farmville  ;)" loool fucking fb its gotta go under soon!


Which ddraw should I try? There seems to be 4 versions and I'm not sure where to place it.
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Re: 1 second+ input delay issues
« Reply #9 on: November 15, 2017, 03:06:24 AM »
I have done the setup with offlinebattlenet already. I've tried with both my 127.0.0.1 address and 192.x.x.x private address. Same delayed result with both.
Ops! That means your problem is not related to network, is it?
Did you check your CPU? Maybe it's 100% loaded?
Which hardware and OS you have?
How many cores? War2 always uses 100% of 1 core.

Which ddraw should I try? There seems to be 4 versions and I'm not sure where to place it.
If you have such problems with performance, i'd say you to try to not use any draw. Drraw helps with graphics but includes additional layer of performance loss...
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Re: 1 second+ input delay issues
« Reply #10 on: November 15, 2017, 07:58:32 AM »
Yes. I mean only with computers.

I am aware I can do the ffa game creation on server, and that's what I've been trying to do. Is there an alternate to this for single player? Doesn't seem like it.


You can edit a map and change the controller from 'human' to 'computer' then load it in single player. IIRC the interface only lets you select then number of AI opponents, whereas with the multiplayer interface you can select 'fixed order' then choose exactly which slots you set to 'computer' abd what race each is, so it's a lot more flexable.


I've timed how much delay I get offline and online. It's a negligible difference between the two(on low latency).:

offline single player: 0 delay
0ms(my test server): 0.8 of a second delay for an action to deploy
250ms(war2.ru): 0.82 of a second delay for an action to deploy

How exactly is this a problem with my computer?


WC2 is a 100% peer-to-peer game. The server is a matchmaking/messaging service only. When a game is underway the communication is only between the client computers. The TCP connection is only used for server commands (messages that start with the '/' character) and reporting post-game results.

So if you're the only human player in the game, then it's a problem with your computer because that's the only place anything is happening. There is an idle TCP connection handshaking every now and again, but that has no effect whatsoever on gameplay, it's being done by your TCP drivers and wouldn't even amount to 0.01% of your CPU or network usage.

My internet connection is fine. I have a fiber connection that doesn't drop packets.


I am very happy that you are pleased with your fibre-optic connection.

You will notice I said "i.e. your ISP or some server along the route". The internet functions by each IP packet having an address attached to it. Your network adapter forwards this packet to your router which in turn forwards it to your ISP where the rules programmed into your ISP's routing table will then forward it on to the most appropriate (or perhaps even the cheapest!) server downstrean, which will in turn forward it to any number of other servers along the way before it finally reaches it's endpoint.

It does not matter if your connection is fibre-optic or a gold plated salad-fork jammed into a mains outlet - it only takes one server along the route to cause this effect. It happens quite commonly regardless of what your ISP's glossy brochure or any dinky-toy network app you have plugged in says. You can't know this because UDP doesn't report it. That is the fundamental difference between UDP and TCP.

         ...anyway based on your most recent post this isn't the main problem, at least.

VPN wouldn't solve this issue due to it being an internal delay put on when a network game is played.


As I stated in my post "Although adding the VPN layer actually increases latency in the connection, if it stops packet loss it can cause a dramatic improvement in lag". Some long term users have reported greatly improved connections after switching to VPNs, despite the overheads, and now routinely use VPN connections to play server games for this reason.

Seems like that's the go to if you don't know what the issue is.

Explain to me how this delay is possible on 0ms still.


I could guess, and will do shortly, but as you sound a bit sceptical, first try this:

1) Start a server game with just you and AI players.
2) Turn off your router

Now explain to me how it is NOT a problem with your computer.


    ..... Lamb waits patiently for some new guy to realise he should actually be paying attention     :critter: zzzZZZZZ


Ok Willie. Hi! I'm Lamby :) Tech support isn't my job, but I usually try to help if you pay attention and don't tell me I'm just making stuff up because I don't know what I'm talking about. Deal?.... KEWL  :D

If you have tried the standard fixes from the en.war2.ru site (ddraw etc.), and you aren't simply attempting to run WC2 on a system...maybe a VM... that doesn't have the processing power to run it (seems unlikely) then based on the information you are supplying, I would GUESS that it is related to either some firewall and/or anti-virus program that you have running or you have some messed up stuff going on with your network drivers. Perhaps it is related to Kaillera (which is basically a 15 year old kludgey hack), or it could be related to any one of the numerous backyard networking apps I suspect you may have at some time installed on your system... possibly even the one you are using to get this 0.8 second figure from. It could even be related to a rootkit/botnet malware of some type.

I really don't know, (and can't diagnose without looking at your system) but I do know that if it's happening with no other players in the game it is a problem with your system.    .... and an unusual problem at that - I have never heard of anyone else having this particular issue.

.... as a completely wild stab in the dark have you (or anyone else on your network) ever used or installed libPcap/WinPcap, tcpdump, Wireshark or anything else that forces a network adapter to operate in promiscious mode, or any other similar scullduggery?


Here's a bunch of random stuff that might be useful in your situation:

The PvPGN server will report your /ping as 0ms, before it has scheduled and completed the task of checking it. After you have been connected for a minute or two check again and you will get a more accurate /ping result.

The server /ping results are server->client->server roundtrip times and aren't necessarily related to gameplay because the game is all peer-to-peer and the server isn't part of the loop.

Normal network pinging such as via the DOS or unix 'ping' command is done using the ICMP protocol. Most servers handle ICMP traffic completely seperately to IP traffic so the results from pinging can be radically different from actual IP transmission speeds.

Internet speed testing sites such as speedtest.net and many other similar sites are quite often totally useless. This is not because there is anything inherantly wrong with the function of these sites, but because ISPs routinely give traffic to and from these sites the highest possible priority to make their service appear better than it is to gullible end users. It is not uncommon to have speed test sites report 3 to 10 times the actual service speed being supplied to the end user. I don't know if your ISP does this, but many do.

Uninstalling software that has installed custom drivers on your system will not necessarily remove the drivers of fix any mess the software may have made.

Have you tried changing to a random game port? (certianly if you have more than one client on the same LAN you must use different game ports).

As I understand it, Kaillera operates by blindly sending user-input to 1 or more remoter computer(s). I don't use it but under those circumstances I would guess it could be very hard to detect either packet loss or a <1 second delay.

The single player and multiplayer games actually use entirely different game engines internally, so even offline (i.e. just you and AI players) there is still different code running.

Much of the above information can be found HERE


Thanks for trying to educate me.


You're welcome.


I do understand how UDP works vs TCP already.

Awesome  ;D
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Re: 1 second+ input delay issues
« Reply #11 on: November 15, 2017, 01:27:19 PM »
Thanks for your sharing your expertise here, Lamby.
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Re: 1 second+ input delay issues
« Reply #12 on: November 15, 2017, 05:52:50 PM »
new guy seems to know what your talking about.

i was thinking vpn it but dam that sucks :/ hope ya get it fixed.
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Re: 1 second+ input delay issues
« Reply #13 on: November 16, 2017, 05:51:09 AM »
Thanks for your sharing your expertise here, Lamby.

No problem. Thanks for noticing :)

i was thinking vpn it but dam that sucks

Yeah personally I have never had any success with VPNs either. In any case it won't help for offline games.

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Re: 1 second+ input delay issues
« Reply #14 on: November 16, 2017, 06:16:02 AM »
The speedtest thing is impressive if its accurate. Interestingly you are not the only player who uses Rogers cable.... but I don't talk out of school, you know  ;)