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Testimonies from Ex-Muslims 2281  67

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Re: Testimonies from Ex-Muslims
« Reply #30 on: December 04, 2017, 12:28:13 PM »
You have beautifully avoided addressing my points

This seems to be her trademark, avoiding addressing anything she can argue against and rambling incoherently into another topic.
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Re: Testimonies from Ex-Muslims
« Reply #31 on: December 04, 2017, 06:26:44 PM »
Looked like that lil B got GGED!

Nonsense. The problem here is that ze_saint stands on very, very flimsy platforms and might as well be saying "the sun is not warm" or "books don't contain words" or "grass is not green".

When evidence presented is completely ignored and the same thing is repeated over and over again in spite of evidence shown, it needs to be considered whether ANY evidence of any kind can ever persuade such a person.

Ze_Saint's position is that the Bible does not teach that Jesus is God.

I already showed ample evidence that the Bible does in fact teach that Jesus is God, which he dismissed and ignored and refused to acknowledge.

Even atheists and Bible-haters who want nothing to do with Jesus recognize that the Bible teaches that Jesus is God.

I'll re-post the verses here.

John 5:18

18 Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.

John 5:23

 23 that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

Jesus uses the same words that God Himself used from the burning bush with Moses to describe Himself, saying that "before Abraham was, I AM." The Jews were so angry that He was calling Himself God that they picked up stones to stone Him to death, but Jesus just supernaturally walked right through them.

Exodus 3:14

14 And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”

John 8:48-59

48 Then the Jews answered and said to Him, “Do we not say rightly that You are a Samaritan and have a demon?”

49 Jesus answered, “I do not have a demon; but I honor My Father, and you dishonor Me. 50 And I do not seek My own glory; there is One who seeks and judges. 51 Most assuredly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he shall never see death.”

52 Then the Jews said to Him, “Now we know that You have a demon! Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and You say, ‘If anyone keeps My word he shall never taste death.’ 53 Are You greater than our father Abraham, who is dead? And the prophets are dead. Who do You make Yourself out to be?”

54 Jesus answered, “If I honor Myself, My honor is nothing. It is My Father who honors Me, of whom you say that He is your God. 55 Yet you have not known Him, but I know Him. And if I say, ‘I do not know Him,’ I shall be a liar like you; but I do know Him and keep His word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”

57 Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”

58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

59 Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

So it is clear that Jesus made Himself out to be God.

There are 3 possiblities.

1. Jesus is lying.
2. Jesus is insane.
3. Jesus is telling the truth.

The possibility that Jesus is a good man or a good human prophet does not exist, because good men and good prophets don't go around lying to people and telling everyone they are God.

So we see the evidence:

Jesus had supernatural power to do miracles.

The supernatural power did not come from Satan, but came from God.

Jesus called himself God.

Jesus is God.

So then you bring up some good questions:


Quote from: Ze_sAiNt on November 16, 2017, 04:54:58 AM

    Where does Jesus say in the Bible that He is God?  Prove it to me.  Quote me an unequivocal statement from the Bible where Jesus either says "I am God" or where he says "Worship me".  Do that, and I am ready to accept him as my God.  In fact, Jesus never made such a claim.  To make your task easy, find a red letter bible where every word Jesus ever spoke is in red.

    On the contrary, Jesus said again and again:

    "The Father is greater than I." [John 14:28]

    "My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all..." [John 10:29]

    "I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me." [John 5:30] - incidentally, anyone who submits his will to the Almighty God is a muslim by definition.  Jesus Christ was a muslim.

    But why go that far to prove that Jesus is not God?  The answer to that is in the Lord's Prayer.  Here is the quote, with a little emphasis on the pronouns:

    "Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

    Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven." [Luke 11:9-10]

    Where does Jesus say he is God?  On the plain sight of it, you can make out that Jesus is actually praying to God...



These are great questions, because how does it make sense for God to pray...to Himself? Why is Jesus saying "The Father is greater than I?"

The answer lies in the dual nature of Christ.

Jesus Christ was fully God, AND fully man.

He was born of a virgin, human woman by the Holy Spirit, so He did not inherit sinfulness like all the rest of us do from our parents. Isaiah prophesied about His birth 700 years earlier. Immanuel means "God with us" and describes Jesus as being God in the flesh, here with us.

Matthew 1:18-23

18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: After His mother Mary was betrothed to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit. 19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not wanting to make her a public example, was minded to put her away secretly. 20 But while he thought about these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. 21 And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.”

22 So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying: 23 “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”

Philippians 2:5-11

5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. 9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Jesus was in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God. He MADE Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. He humbled Himself and became obedient. At the name of Jesus, every knee should BOW...every tongue confess that JESUS CHRIST IS LORD.

Jesus took on humanity, and in His humanity, was lower than God. He did not lose His God-ness, but He took on humanity. Why??

So He could keep the law perfectly (where we cannot) so that He could become the sacrifice for our sins, and die. He needed to be human so he could take our place of punishment. He needed to be under the law as a human, so He could obey it perfectly, never sinning, and He needed to be human so He could die. The wrath of God was put on Him over our sin.

Hebrews 2:5-9

5 For He has not put the world to come, of which we speak, in subjection to angels. 6 But one testified in a certain place, saying:

“What is man that You are mindful of him,
Or the son of man that You take care of him?
7
You have made him a little lower than the angels;
You have crowned him with glory and honor,
And set him over the works of Your hands.
8
You have put all things in subjection under his feet.”

For in that He put all in subjection under him, He left nothing that is not put under him. But now we do not yet see all things put under him. 9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.

So we see that in His humanity, Jesus was a "little lower than the angels" and that the reason for Him taking on humanity was so that He might taste death for everyone.

God can't be killed. But God taking on humanity, can die in His humanity, on our behalf.

Jesus ate, drank, slept, cried like other humans. It is in His humanity that He was made lower, and in His humanity that He has humbled Himself. Yet He remains God at the same time and every knee will bow at the name of Jesus in the end.

I'll post this for now, and then continue on your other points.
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Re: Testimonies from Ex-Muslims
« Reply #32 on: December 04, 2017, 06:45:42 PM »
I have a little bit of time now, and it seems prudent to start with the most urgent and pressing concern you have raised, namely, my health, to ensure that everyone is safe:

I can see clearly that you are sick and you need help.


Can you describe the symptoms of illness that you see, and recommend which kind of doctor I may visit who may accurately diagnose me and provide remedy?

I do concede that I have had a cold lately, with a sore throat and a cough. Is that what you're referring to? If it is, I can assure you that this sickness is not life-threatening, and cannot be passed along over the internet.



You are just pathetic.  You've had several hours to respond to my posts, yet all you could come up with was 'my health'!?  And yet, you still managed to initiate several new threads as a decoy instead of addressing the real problem which you got yourself into and which don't want to deal with...

But since you mentioned it, you should know that the type of sickness you have is spiritual, not physical.  You suffer from Islamophobia and everyone can see how you hallucinate that muslims are always trying to attack you or your religion.  You convince yourself to believe that Islam is a religion of hate and oppression and use every opportunity you have to launch attacks on Islam.  You keep on watching and posting videos of David Wood - who spreads lies about Muhammad and Islam with the most sarcastic smile on his face - and you have now become programmed to believe everything the guy says.  Jesus Christ warned you against those types of people when he said:

"Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravening wolves." [Matthew 7:15]

Incidentally, in the same chapter, Jesus also warns you about judging others - in as much as you said the Qur'an teaches violence, not seeing that the Bible itself contains numerous verses teaching violence - so, Jesus Christ is telling you:

"Do not judge, or you too will be judged.

"For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?

"How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye?

"You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye."
[Matthew 7:1-5]


Isn't it about time you overcome your irrational fears, get out of your coccoon and start thinking for yourself?


The Moderated Section of the forum has rules to protect discussions from becoming a useless poop-flinging zone of personal insults, attacks, and lies, that benefits no one.

Flaming is 100% disallowed in this section of the forum. Posters are encouraged to limit their posting here to substantive, conversationally ethical posts relevant to the topic of the thread & to express any disagreement they may have with any individual or stance in a coherent & respectful way. Other things which are highly discouraged & likely to result in punitive measures (determined on a case by case basis via the application of common sense) include: content that is harmful, threatening, abusive, harassing, torturous, defamatory, vulgar, obscene*, libelous, invasive of another's privacy, hateful, racially, ethnically or otherwise objectionable or generally unlawful.*



The self-proclaimed Muslim trio of Tora, lightbringer, and Ze_saint have, instead of sticking to discussion, insisted on repeated and unfounded personal attacks:

You are just pathetic.


I can see clearly that you are sick and you need help.


The girl is retarded


Probably one of the many jobless/parent basement dweller/<insert favourite drug
here>abuser/living off government pity money/unemployed loser


You come tell me what you are worth. I bet pretty much nothing.


I have the freedom to address anything you post, or nothing at all. I am not legally obligated to engage with and spend time on people who insist on being rude and degrading.

This is a warning about personal attacks (such as "you are sick, you are retarded, you are worthless, you are pathetic") which contribute nothing to the topic at hand and are the type of actually offensive nonsense claims that betray your true intention here, which is to try to bully me into silence or to intimidate with numbers or to harass me, rather than pursue actual dialogue.

I have the right to not reply to you ever, if I so choose. That does not give you a license to spew discriminatory Christophobic hate.

This is a warning against personal attacks. A respectful apology would be nice, if you want to show that you value me as a human being (since I've been called worthless by the Muslims, although it's unclear if it was because I'm a woman or because I'm a Christian or because I'm a critic or because I live in North America...still waiting on the results of that one).

Stick to the topic, present evidence, attack opinions and beliefs, but personal attacks are not going to be tolerated in this section of the forum.

My reason for posting, my purpose in posting, is so that you and any other readers may come to know the truth of God and the love of God, that we see in Jesus Christ, who died on the cross for our sins and gives the only way of salvation to humankind. I pray for you 3 and a number of others. I don't hate you at all. I care about what happens to you. That's why I'm here.

What is your goal for me, from this interaction? What's your ideal outcome? Do you hope to turn me into a Muslim? What benefits does Islam offer, other than having to share your husband with 3 other women?

Any and every single one of Ze_Saint's issues can be easily addressed, but the problem is that even when he is presented with evidence, he refused to acknowledge it.

IE.

Ze_Saint view: The Bible does not say Jesus is God.

John 1:1-3, 14

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.

14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

15 John bore witness of Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me is preferred before me, for He was before me.’”


The evidence is clear, and plentiful. The Bible teaches that Jesus is God.

Whether you believe in the authority of God's Word and whether you believe what Jesus said is another matter.

But the Bible most certainly, without question, teaches that Jesus is God.

Regarding David Wood, tell me some "lies" that he has spread.

I've watched a number of his videos, and he is basically reading out of the Quran and hadiths.

It's very interesting that reading the Quran is considered "Islamophobic".

Islamophobia is a nonsense term used as a weapon to protect a bad religion from honest criticism. I say the religion is bad because violence against non-Muslims is bad and oppression of women is bad.

Together with "RACIST", they are used irrationally to silence any person who would investigate the religion of Islam.

So far, I have

1. Posted quotations from the Quran
2. Posted videos of Arab people speaking
3. Posted people reading the Quran and talking about what it says
4. Posted video evidence of Muslim activity

None of these things is racist. None of my concerns about Islam have anything to do with race. Those who say it does are desperately trying to find some smear label to stop people from open discussion and fact-finding. I am all for reading the Quran and finding out what it really says, and for listening to Arab people. and for looking at evidence, facts, statistics, studies, and listening to eyewitnesses.

I actually knew fairly little about Islam, other than the obvious common knowledge stuff like it was founded by some guy named Muhammad and that women live under a garbage bag-looking thing that must get really hot in the summer and have no rights, until Tora brought it up here:


https://youtu.be/iji7sULZIOY


And I started to do research and listen to Arab people and find out what the Quran teaches and find out what was going on in countries where thousands and thousands of Muslim immigrants were taken in and provided food and clothing and shelter.

What I learned was simply shocking. It opened my eyes to so much suffering and my heart goes out to these girls and women.

And the testimonies of Muslims that had become Christians were so moving and beautiful. That Jesus Christ's love had come to these people, both men and women, was the most beautiful thing I'd seen in a long time, and I started praying for Muslims and asked my church to start praying for Muslims again (as it had frequently in the past also).

The church body I'm a part of has actually helped sponsor Muslims coming to Canada:

http://www.canadianlutheran.ca/refugee-sponsorship-demonstrates-christian-charity/

So the desire to attack and harm the person is a one-way thing. Christians do not want to hurt Muslims. Christians want to help Muslims and help them see the love of Jesus Christ, so they may be saved and have eternal life by faith in the perfect life and innocent death of Jesus Christ our Lord.

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Re: Testimonies from Ex-Muslims
« Reply #33 on: December 04, 2017, 07:46:33 PM »
you say Islam is a religion of hate and oppression...

Quote from: BabyShark on November 13, 2017, 09:20:37 PM

    I know Islam is a man-made concoction of hate and oppression


...but you do not construe that as an attack on Islam.  However, when I quote you biblical verses where it says God killed 50,070 men for looking into an Ark, expecting you to reasonably explain to everyone how this is the act of a "God of Love" as you claim, you jump the gun and say I am attacking you and the Bible.


I never did say that my claims are not attacks on Islam. Yes, I would like to see Islam disappear and be replaced by everyone knowing the loving, merciful God of the Bible who does not demand the sacrifice of daughters for "honor killings" or the sacrifice of sons for jihad, but who GAVE to the people He loves, His own blood poured out for the people He made so He could save us from our sins.

Yes, I oppose the violence and oppression in Islam committed by Muslims against humans.

What I am NOT doing, is attacking you as a person. Calling you retarded, sick, pathetic, a drug-addicted basement dwelling loser, racist, worthless.

Attacking an idea is very different from attacking a person.

I attack the ideas and beliefs of Islam because I care about people and want you to know love, which is something that does not appear to exist in Islam. I don't attack Islam because I want to hurt you. I want to help you. I pray for you, I understand that you have been raised a certain way and have a different background from me. I'm engaging with you in spite of the personal attacks, because I do care.

I have nothing to gain here. There is no enjoyment in this for me. I know that questioning Islam will make me hated and a target. But I also know that many Muslims have come to know Jesus through the love and kindness shown by Christians.

The first man in this video has just such a beautiful, powerful, moving testimony that moved me deeply.

Don't just listen to me, listen to other people, including people who were immersed in Islamic culture and saw the world the way you do now. Watch especially the first man from this video:

3 Muslims Saved by Jesus 100% Proves He Is Real - YouTube
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Re: Testimonies from Ex-Muslims
« Reply #34 on: December 04, 2017, 08:03:53 PM »
Surplus women

We have a problem of surplus women in many western countries today.  Statistics tell us there are millions of women more than men in America alone.  If every man were to get married in America, there'll still be millions of women who will be left without a husband.  Add to that your gay population.  That's another few million women who can't get husbands.  Then, there's your prison population that is > 95% men.  Your problem is compounding... Islam offers you a solution:

"Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one..." [Qur'an 4:3]

There is a type of woman who does not mind sharing a husband and there is a type of man who does not mind taking on additional responsibility.  Islam offers you this as a solution.  It might not go easily down your throat but ask any woman who can't get a husband if she would mind sharing one with another woman... You don't mind having dozens of illegitimate partners but when it comes to polygamy, you say "over my dead body!".  Then, you will simmer in your soup and your problems will keep on compounding.


The "surplus women" problem (125.9 million adult women in the United States in 2014. The number of men was 119.4 million) is obviously because North America has an increasingly aging population and women live longer than men and because many men died in wars while the women remained at home. Americans are having fewer and fewer children, in favor of having more pets and hobbies and income and travel and other personal pursuits. I hardly think the geriatric crew is the pickings for new wife material. The birth ratio is normally close to 50/50 worldwide.

Muslim nations have a problem, though, when each man takes 4 wives. You have then 3/4 or 75% "surplus" men who can't get a wife. Those men are discarded via importing them to other nations en masse and/or sending them to suicide bomb or otherwise dispose of themselves for the cause of Allah.

I do not want to share my husband with another woman under any circumstances.

I said this before to Tora, and it has been confirmed by numerous Muslim testimonies, that the Islamic understanding of North America is that it is a Christian nation and that all the people are Christians. This is completely false.

A VERY small percentage of the general population goes to church every Sunday, which in general are the actual believing Christians. There are very many other belief systems in North America, including secular humanism/atheism/evolutionism, Catholicism, Hinduism, Judaism, Islam (as you know),  Bahá'í faith, Buddhism, Rastafarianism, and others. When asked, "What's your religion?" many unbelievers will answer "Christian" even if they have never read the Bible and do not believe or care what it says. I am sure there are self-proclaimed Muslims like that too, who don't read the Quran and who would be considered "hypocrites" by real believing Muslims who are devout in their faith.

The reality is that the once-Christian nation of USA has largely and publicly turned its back on God. Prayer in school has become illegal in some places. Two Christian teachers were arrested for praying at school.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/08/17/Florida.school.prayer/

What you see on TV and what you see in mainstream American culture does not at all reflect the beliefs and values of Christians or the truths of God's Word.

God's Word calls homosexuality a sin.

God's Wrath on Unrighteousness

Romans 1:18-32

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.


I will get into more of the content as time allows, including your Paul vs Christ content, and others. These are all very easily answered, it's just very time-consuming.
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Re: Testimonies from Ex-Muslims
« Reply #35 on: December 07, 2017, 12:13:39 PM »
When evidence presented is completely ignored and the same thing is repeated over and over again in spite of evidence shown, it needs to be considered whether ANY evidence of any kind can ever persuade such a person.

Where have I completed ignored the evidence you have given me?  Look at my posts and you will see that I have addressed most, if not all of your comments and refuted them wherever applicable.  If you chose to ignore my responses and then repost the same comments again, how can you blame me for that?  And by the way, I also mentioned that the evidence you have provided is not persuasive too as I have proven, no matter how many times you requote them!  Anyways, I will repost my responses to your quote in Reply # 31 below:

@BabyShark

It seems that you are suggesting that Jesus Christ Himself was a "false Christ".

That is certainly not what I am suggesting.  My point is that the Bible mentions that people, other than Jesus Christ, were able to perform miracles.  Jesus Christ himself prophesised that even false Christs and false prophets would be able to do miracles and wonders to deceive people.  The Bible also shows us how Moses was able to perform miracles. Therefore, your point that Jesus Christ is God because he was able to perform miracles does not stand.


Jesus' supernatural power is not coming from Satan. Satan is the enemy of God.

Jesus' supernatural power is coming from God, obviously.

So, is Jesus just a man? Or is Jesus both fully God and fully man like the Bible teaches?

Would God give supernatural power to a liar?

Why can't God give supernatural power to Jesus Christ as a prophet and messenger?  He certainly did so with Moses (as I mentioned earlier) and many others.

And I still cannot see where the Bible teaches that Jesus is FULLY God and FULLY man... this is your own interpretation.  You are yet to produce clear proof to justify your case.

If I were to worship anyone as my God, I would like to hear that God say "I am God" or "Worship me", not some ambiguous statements or other statements by inference.

The God in the Koran says in multiple instances:

(10) And when he came to it (the fire), he was called by name: "O Mûsa (Moses)! (11) "Verily! I am your Lord! So take off your shoes, you are in the sacred valley, Tuwa. (12) "And I have chosen you. So listen to that which will be revealed (to you). (13) "Verily! I am Allâh! Lâ ilâha illa Ana (none has the right to be worshipped but I), so worship Me, and perform As-Salât (Iqâmat-as-Salât) for My Remembrance. (14)  [Al-Qur'an 20:11-14]

And I (Allâh) created not the jinn and mankind except that they should worship Me (Alone). [Al-Qur'an 51:56]


John 5:18

18 Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.

This is the jews' interpretation of Jesus Christ's statements, not Jesus Christ admitting this himself.  The jews were always looking to catch him out because they did not like his preaching.  They tried to find fault with any statement, every statement he made and accused him of blasphemy because of their deliberate misunderstanding of his words.


Jesus uses the same words that God Himself used from the burning bush with Moses to describe Himself, saying that "before Abraham was, I AM." The Jews were so angry that He was calling Himself God that they picked up stones to stone Him to death, but Jesus just supernaturally walked right through them.

Regarding the statement "before Abraham was, I AM", Jesus Christ does not actually say "I AM GOD".  He said "I AM".  So, how WAS HE?  Was he with God?  I accept that.  Jesus was with God... but then so was I, so were you, so was Muhammad, so was everybody.  How?  In what form, shape or size?  No, not in form, shape or size, but in knowledge, i.e in the knowledge of God, Jesus was there before Abraham was physically in this earth.  He knew about Jesus long before Abraham chronologically walked this earth.  God is omniscient - He knows everything.  What we know as past, present and future, for God it is all one, like an open book.  God tells Jeremiah:

"I knew you before I formed you in your mother’s womb.  Before you were born I set you apart and appointed you as my prophet to the nations." [Jeremiah 1:5]

How can God know Jeremiah before he went into his mother's womb???  Was Jeremiah with God?  Yes, he was there in His knowledge.


There are 3 possiblities.

1. Jesus is lying.
2. Jesus is insane.
3. Jesus is telling the truth.

The possibility that Jesus is a good man or a good human prophet does not exist, because good men and good prophets don't go around lying to people and telling everyone they are God.

Why should Jesus be either a Liar, Lunatic or Lord?  Why can't he be a true messenger of God, a good man, a human prophet?  Why should it be either black or white?  What about the endless shades of grey in between... do you see them at all?

You are basing your assumption that Jesus is God because he "claimed" to be so, but then I see you have not been able to prove it so far.


He was born of a virgin, human woman by the Holy Spirit, so He did not inherit sinfulness like all the rest of us do from our parents. Isaiah prophesied about His birth 700 years earlier. Immanuel means "God with us" and describes Jesus as being God in the flesh, here with us.

Matthew 1:18-23

18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: After His mother Mary was betrothed to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit. 19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not wanting to make her a public example, was minded to put her away secretly. 20 But while he thought about these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. 21 And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.”

22 So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying: 23 “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,”

Let's have a look at this prophecy of Isaiah.  Verse 22 says "...and they shall call His name Immanuel".  Did anyone ever call Jesus "Immanuel" during his lifetime?  The Bible certainly does not say so.  Then this prophecy is clearly not fulfilled, thus everything else you said in connection with this becomes a moot point.


Jesus took on humanity, and in His humanity, was lower than God. He did not lose His God-ness, but He took on humanity. Why??

So He could keep the law perfectly (where we cannot) so that He could become the sacrifice for our sins, and die. He needed to be human so he could take our place of punishment.

So here, my Q to you is: Did Jesus die as a man or as God?

If it's the former, then one man cannot take on the sins of mankind - that's common sense.

Then, he must have died as God?  If that's the case, that's an even bigger problem for you to solve... first of all, God dying is blasphemy, period.  Secondly, who ruled the world for 3 days and 3 nights (before his "alleged" ascension onto heaven)?


So already we can clearly see that Islam, which teaches that Jesus was just a human prophet (it is impossible to be a good human prophet when you are going around calling yourself God if you are not) is not compatible with the Bible, which teaches that Jesus is the Son of God, true God, the second person of the triune God-head with the Father and the Holy Spirit.

The only place in the Bible where the trinity is defined per se is 1 John 5:7, where it reads:

"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." - [1 John 5:7 - King James Version]

This is the clearest statement on the trinity to be found in the Bible.  But judging from your quotations, I see you are using the "New American Standard Bible" and this verse is not there!  What happened? It has been taken out as a fabrication, as an interpolation, as an adulteration.

So, who took it out and why?  32 Christian scholars of the highest eminence, back by 50 cooperating Christian denominations took the verse out as a fabrication because it was not in the most ancient manuscripts.  It's an amazing situation where the most up to date bible, going back to the most ancient manuscripts does not contain the very foundation of your belief on the trinity, and YET, you still insist that the Bible teaches the trinity.

What's even more amazing is that the word "TRINITY" itself does not exist in the Bible.  The Christians have produced hundreds of different versions of the Bible but the word "TRINITY" is nowhere to be found in any of them!  The word "TRINITY" however is in the Koran, and this is what it reads:

"O people of the Book! commit no excesses in your religion: nor say of Allah aught but truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) an Messenger of Allah and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a Spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not "Trinity": desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is One Allah: glory be to him: (for Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belongs all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs." [Al Qur'an 4:171]


I think I've given you plenty to ponder upon.  I look forward to your reply.

... and I am still looking forward to your reply by the way... and I further refuted your claims in the immediately following the one I quoted above:

@BabyShark

I'm continuing from where I left off in my previous post.  I also have comments on another thread of yours, which I will post afterwards.

Satan twists and distorts the God-made, natural functions, and comes up with all kinds of perversion that go against God's perfect will. God says sex belongs between a man and woman who have committed to each other for life in marriage, thus creating the natural family that is the perfect place for children that come from the union to be loved, protected, and raised.

Satan has deceived people to think it's a good idea to have sex with anyone and anything, no matter the suffering that results from it. Broken families are everywhere. Following the allure of Satan's deception leads to brokenness, pain, and death.

The pleasure in sex was God's design. The pain of disease, the pain of being rejected by someone you love, the pain of having someone else raising your child, the pain of being cheated on, the pain of being unable to respond normally to your spouse after porn has ruined your mind and body, those are things Satan wants for people. He uses the bait of God-made sexual pleasure, but in ways and places where God doesn't allow it, and then Satan rejoices and laughs when families are destroyed and hearts are broken and bodies are riddled with disease and when unwanted children are torn apart in the womb, piece by piece.

I couldn't agree more to what you said.  If we were all to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ in the Bible and what God has ordained in the Koran, we would not be having so many broken families.  We have to deal problem at its source.

Jesus says in the Bible:

"27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: 28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart." [Matthew 5:27-28]

Jesus is teaching us here that we should lower our gaze to avoid temptation.  The same message is given in the Koran:

"Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that will make for greater purity for them; and Allah is acquainted with all that they do." [QUR'AN 24:30]

"And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and adornments except what must ordinarily appear thereof; that they should cover their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers,..." [QUR'AN 24:31]


Satan is behind Islam, and in some ways and in some places, there is some imitation of the real thing. But closer examination reveals that Satan is laughing at humans who swallow the nonsensical teachings of Islam.

I fail to see from that one Hadith which you quoted how "Satan is behind Islam".  Washing up one's nose 3 times to ward off Satan barely justifies your statement.

However, I can quote you Biblical verses that seem to be more of an inspiration from Satan than from God:

If two men are fighting and the wife of one of the men comes to save her husband's life, YOU SHOULD CUT OFF HER HAND.

" When men strive together one with another, and the wife of the one draweth near for to deliver her husband out of the hand of him that smiteth him, and putteth forth her hand, and taketh him by the secrets: Then thou shalt cut off her hand, thine eye shall not pity her." [Deuteronomy 25:11-12]

Is this the inspiration of God or that of Satan?  Is this sanity or lunacy?  Nay, this is lunacy of the highest order.  Much has been said about Islam degrading women, yet Christianity teaches you to cut off your wife's hand if she comes to your rescue...

God kills 50,070 men for looking into an Ark

"He struck down some of the men of Beth-shemesh because they had looked into the ark of the LORD. He struck down of all the people, 50,070 men, and the people mourned because the LORD had struck the people with a great slaughter." [1 Samuel 6:19]

This God of Love and Mercy that you are boasting about allows 50,070 men to look into an Ark and then slaughters all of them.  He could have killed the first one and let it be a lesson to the remaining 50,069 men... but no, this God is bloodthirsty.  And you say these are words inspired from God?  I cannot attribute such monstrosity to the All-Loving God.
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Re: Testimonies from Ex-Muslims
« Reply #36 on: December 07, 2017, 12:18:51 PM »

Ze_Saint's position is that the Bible does not teach that Jesus is God.

That's another lie - and I would like you to retract that statement because I never said so.  Shall I repeat my words?  I said:

Jesus never said in the Bible that "I am God" or "Worship Me".  Here is a quote from one of my earlier posts:

Where does Jesus say in the Bible that He is God?  Prove it to me.  Quote me an unequivocal statement from the Bible where Jesus either says "I am God" or where he says "Worship me".  Do that, and I am ready to accept him as my God.  In fact, Jesus never made such a claim.  To make your task easy, find a red letter bible where every word Jesus ever spoke is in red.

You have yet to quote me those statements as well...

The self-proclaimed Muslim trio of Tora, lightbringer, and Ze_saint have, instead of sticking to discussion, insisted on repeated and unfounded personal attacks:

Quote from: Ze_sAiNt on December 04, 2017, 04:31:04 AM
You are just pathetic.


Quote from: Ze_sAiNt on November 29, 2017, 12:33:06 PM
I can see clearly that you are sick and you need help.


You know very well that those statements were made in the spirit of discussion and argument.  And I still concede you have a sickness... of lying - as I clearly showed above and in other posts how you are distorting facts and making false claims.  Don't get oversensitive.

Any and every single one of Ze_Saint's issues can be easily addressed, but the problem is that even when he is presented with evidence, he refused to acknowledge it.

IE.

Ze_Saint view: The Bible does not say Jesus is God.

Again, lies. Plain and simple.


Regarding David Wood, tell me some "lies" that he has spread.

I've watched a number of his videos, and he is basically reading out of the Quran and hadiths.

...yes he is, OUT OF CONTEXT.  Perhaps you got that from him too.  Quoting verses out of context makes it deceitful, hence they become lies.

What is your goal for me, from this interaction? What's your ideal outcome? Do you hope to turn me into a Muslim? What benefits does Islam offer, other than having to share your husband with 3 other women?

Ask those American converts to Islam why they did so?  What did Islam have to offer them?  Perhaps they may talk some sense out of you...


Quote from: Ze_sAiNt on November 29, 2017, 12:33:06 PM
you say Islam is a religion of hate and oppression...

Quote from: BabyShark on November 13, 2017, 09:20:37 PM

    I know Islam is a man-made concoction of hate and oppression


...but you do not construe that as an attack on Islam.  However, when I quote you biblical verses where it says God killed 50,070 men for looking into an Ark, expecting you to reasonably explain to everyone how this is the act of a "God of Love" as you claim, you jump the gun and say I am attacking you and the Bible.


I never did say that my claims are not attacks on Islam. Yes, I would like to see Islam disappear and be replaced by everyone knowing the loving, merciful God of the Bible who does not demand the sacrifice of daughters for "honor killings" or the sacrifice of sons for jihad, but who GAVE to the people He loves, His own blood poured out for the people He made so He could save us from our sins.

And this is how you have avoided addressing the points I have raised (and you claim I ignore your comments) - see how you avoid explaining how God killing 50,070 men for looking into an Ark makes him a "God of Love", according to your Bible.  You bring up another unrelated topic and divert our attention onto something else... Bravo!  Well done.

Muslim nations have a problem, though, when each man takes 4 wives. You have then 3/4 or 75% "surplus" men who can't get a wife. Those men are discarded via importing them to other nations en masse and/or sending them to suicide bomb or otherwise dispose of themselves for the cause of Allah.

First of all, you can't seem to comprehend your own native English language.  Your understanding of simple English has been very poor so far.  You read something and understand something else.  The Qur'anic verse in question says: "Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then marry only one..." [Qur'an 4:3].  And from that, you understand that every muslim has 4 wives.  There is only a tiny fraction of muslim men who have more than one wife, let alone 4 wives.  So all your mathematical calculations that follow is garbage.

Secondly, we have more than 1.5 billion muslims in the world today... if Islam teaches every muslim man to go "blow themselves up" in non-muslim countries, there would probably be just as few non-muslims today as there would be muslims, given that one suicide bomber is expected to blow up and kill more than one other person.  Make some sense please?


God's Wrath on Unrighteousness

Romans 1:18-32

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

It's amazing how you quote verses from the Bible and don't even understand what you are quoting.  I'll quote you some of the verses above with a little emphasis, so you can understand why you have those gays and lesbians;

22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,

23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves,

25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature.

27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.


You are worshipping Jesus, a man (as described in the Bible - weary, sleepy, hungry, thirsty, ...), instead of the Father in heaven.  For this cause, God made those men to go after men and those women to go after women.  You bring the Almighty God to the level of a man, you face the wrath of God.
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Re: Testimonies from Ex-Muslims
« Reply #37 on: April 16, 2018, 09:13:00 PM »
Allah, the Most High, Exalted be He above all the falsehood of the disbelievers, Says, in the Qur'aan, Suraatul 'Ali al-Imraan (Family of Imraan; Chapter 3), verse 72:

Quote
وَقَالَت طَّائِفَةٌ مِّنْ أَهْلِ الْكِتَابِ آمِنُوا بِالَّذِي أُنزِلَ عَلَى الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا وَجْهَ النَّهَارِ وَاكْفُرُوا آخِرَهُ لَعَلَّهُمْ يَرْجِعُونَ
And a party of the people of the Scripture say: "Believe in the morning in that which is revealed to the believers (Muslims), and reject it at the end of the day, so that they may turn back.

People of the Scripture includes the Children of Israel (and subsequently 'Christians', deviated Jews) and the Muslims. So the issue here has been revealed in the Qur'an.

Allah says about these people in Suraatu Tawbah (The Repentance; Chapter 9), verse 32:

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يُرِيدُونَ أَن يُطْفِئُوا نُورَ اللَّهِ بِأَفْوَاهِهِمْ وَيَأْبَى اللَّهُ إِلَّا أَن يُتِمَّ نُورَهُ وَلَوْ كَرِهَ الْكَافِرُونَ
They (the disbelievers, the Jews and the Christians) want to extinguish Allah's Light (with which Muhammad has been sent - Islamic Monotheism) with their mouths, but Allah will not allow except that His Light should be perfected even though the Kafirun (disbelievers) hate (it).

And [9:33]

Quote
هُوَ الَّذِي أَرْسَلَ رَسُولَهُ بِالْهُدَىٰ وَدِينِ الْحَقِّ لِيُظْهِرَهُ عَلَى الدِّينِ كُلِّهِ وَلَوْ كَرِهَ الْمُشْرِكُونَ
It is He Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islam), to make it superior over all religions even though the Mushrikun (polytheists, pagans, idolaters, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah) hate (it).

And in Suraatul Kahf (The Cave; Chapter 18), verse 56:

Quote
وَمَا نُرْسِلُ الْمُرْسَلِينَ إِلَّا مُبَشِّرِينَ وَمُنذِرِينَ ۚ وَيُجَادِلُ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا بِالْبَاطِلِ لِيُدْحِضُوا بِهِ الْحَقَّ ۖ وَاتَّخَذُوا آيَاتِي وَمَا أُنذِرُوا هُزُوًا
And We send not the Messengers except as giver of glad tidings and warners. But those who disbelieve, dispute with false argument, in order to refute the truth thereby. And they treat My Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.), and that with which they are warned, as jest and mockery!

I suggest that the OP @BabyShark  spend more time studying before posting individuals who are not known to have knowledge of Islam to the Scholars of Salafiyyah (Qur'aan and Sunnah as was understood by Allah's Messenger sallallaahu alayhi wasalam and his companions radhiyyallaahu anhum), and their students [of knowledge].

*Translations taken from the Muhsin Khan/Hilali translations, as these are the best and closest to the Arabic text.
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Re: Testimonies from Ex-Muslims
« Reply #38 on: April 17, 2018, 12:30:04 PM »
all religion is vehemently anti-capitalist but was hijacked by capitalists long ago.
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Re: Testimonies from Ex-Muslims
« Reply #39 on: April 17, 2018, 12:59:07 PM »
all religion is vehemently anti-capitalist but was hijacked by capitalists long ago.

Allah, The Most Merciful, Said, in Suraatun Nisaa' (The Women; Chapter 4), verse 29:

Quote
يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا لَا تَأْكُلُوا أَمْوَالَكُم بَيْنَكُم بِالْبَاطِلِ إِلَّا أَن تَكُونَ تِجَارَةً عَن تَرَاضٍ مِّنكُمْ ۚ وَلَا تَقْتُلُوا أَنفُسَكُمْ ۚ إِنَّ اللَّهَ كَانَ بِكُمْ رَحِيمًا
O you who believe! Eat not up your property among yourselves unjustly except it be a trade amongst you, by mutual consent. And do not kill yourselves (nor kill one another). Surely, Allah is Most Merciful to you.

Quote
حَدَّثَنَا عَلِيُّ بْنُ عَيَّاشٍ، حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو غَسَّانَ، مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ مُطَرِّفٍ قَالَ حَدَّثَنِي مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ الْمُنْكَدِرِ، عَنْ جَابِرِ بْنِ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ـ رضى الله عنهما ـ أَنَّ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم قَالَ ‏ "‏ رَحِمَ اللَّهُ رَجُلاً سَمْحًا إِذَا بَاعَ، وَإِذَا اشْتَرَى، وَإِذَا اقْتَضَى ‏"‏‏.‏
Narrated Jabir bin `Abdullah: Allah's Messenger (sallallaahu alayihi wasalam) said, "May Allah's mercy be on him who is lenient in his buying, selling, and in demanding back his money."

In Islam, people (private citizens) sell their product to consumers, which is solely for the purpose of profit and to pay the mandatory Zakaat tax (which is redistributed among the poor or disenfranchised). But there is nothing wrong with a Muslim having a product and selling it for his/her own personal gain. The state does not control the earnings of the people except when it comes to the Zakaat tax which is obligatory on every Muslim. As for the dhimmi (non-Muslim under Islamic rule) the only tax they have to pay is the Jizyyah Tax which is for protection during times of war and such by the state, and it is only charged to men who are of military age and are able to fight in war, women, the sick, the elderly and the like are exempt from this tax.

And Allah knows best.
@marx was right
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Re: Testimonies from Ex-Muslims
« Reply #40 on: April 17, 2018, 04:27:14 PM »
>having a product and selling it for his/her own personal gain

yea i think capitalism is a little more complicated than this  ;D
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Re: Testimonies from Ex-Muslims
« Reply #41 on: April 17, 2018, 04:43:58 PM »
>having a product and selling it for his/her own personal gain

yea i think capitalism is a little more complicated than this  ;D

That is irrelevant. The point was addressing your previous comment:

Quote
all religion is vehemently anti-capitalist but was hijacked by capitalists long ago.

Which is false. Islam is not anti-capitalism, perhaps some of the present practices adopted by capitalists are prohibited but this is neither here or their in regards to the above comment you made.

If anything, Islam is vehemently anti-Communist due to its philosophy, which, by nature, is anti-religion, generally.
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Re: Testimonies from Ex-Muslims
« Reply #42 on: April 17, 2018, 04:50:52 PM »
@marx was right

I'm curious though, what makes you think that all religions are inherently "anti-Capitalist"?
I find it odd, since the purpose of religion has nothing to do with economics (as primary focus).

None of the Abrahamic religions are anti-Capitalism. You won't find Marxist rhetoric in any Scripture. I can't speak for pagan or occult religions/cults on the matter, but as for the former, where does it state, in the text, that the intended purpose of the religion is anti-Capitalism, and where, if, as you say, it was hijacked [by Capitalists], can one read about how and when it was done?

Have you studied world religions, comparatively, in order to come to that conclusion or are you simply posting Communist propaganda? That is not to say I am against propaganda, but, if you are, you are going about it all wrong. Just saying.
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Re: Testimonies from Ex-Muslims
« Reply #43 on: April 17, 2018, 05:00:17 PM »
since when is hoarding wealth at the expense of the rest of society (capitalism) ever been encouraged in religion? usury is especially discouraged. jesus was a communist.
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Re: Testimonies from Ex-Muslims
« Reply #44 on: April 17, 2018, 05:17:47 PM »
since when is hoarding wealth at the expense of the rest of society (capitalism) ever been encouraged in religion? usury is especially discouraged. jesus was a communist.

Hoarding is not part of Capitalist doctrine. Hoarding is something people do. A Communist can be a hoarder as well.

Allah, The All-Knower, Says in the Qur'aan in Suraatut Tawbah (The Repentance; Chapter 9), verses 34:

Quote
يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا إِنَّ كَثِيرًا مِّنَ الْأَحْبَارِ وَالرُّهْبَانِ لَيَأْكُلُونَ أَمْوَالَ النَّاسِ بِالْبَاطِلِ وَيَصُدُّونَ عَن سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ ۗ وَالَّذِينَ يَكْنِزُونَ الذَّهَبَ وَالْفِضَّةَ وَلَا يُنفِقُونَهَا فِي سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ فَبَشِّرْهُم بِعَذَابٍ أَلِيمٍ
O you who believe! Verily, there are many of the (Jewish) rabbis and the (Christian) monks who devour the wealth of mankind in falsehood, and hinder (them) from the Way of Allah (i.e. Allah's Religion of Islamic Monotheism). And those who hoard up gold and silver [Al-Kanz: the money, the Zakat of which has not been paid], and spend it not in the Way of Allah, -announce unto them a painful torment.

And in the following verse of the same chapter [9:35]:

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يَوْمَ يُحْمَىٰ عَلَيْهَا فِي نَارِ جَهَنَّمَ فَتُكْوَىٰ بِهَا جِبَاهُهُمْ وَجُنُوبُهُمْ وَظُهُورُهُمْ ۖ هَٰذَا مَا كَنَزْتُمْ لِأَنفُسِكُمْ فَذُوقُوا مَا كُنتُمْ تَكْنِزُونَ
On the Day when that (Al-Kanz: money, gold and silver, etc., the Zakat of which has not been paid) will be heated in the Fire of Hell and with it will be branded their foreheads, their flanks, and their backs, (and it will be said unto them):-"This is the treasure which you hoarded for yourselves. Now taste of what you used to hoard."

Hoarding is one of the practices that is forbidden, but hoarding doesn't reflect the principles of Capitalism. Hoarding reflects the nature of individual(s) engaged in that crime.

As for Usuray, the same applies, as an even greater crime. As Allah Says, in Suraatul Baqarah (The Cow; Chapter 2), verse 275:

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الَّذِينَ يَأْكُلُونَ الرِّبَا لَا يَقُومُونَ إِلَّا كَمَا يَقُومُ الَّذِي يَتَخَبَّطُهُ الشَّيْطَانُ مِنَ الْمَسِّ ۚ ذَٰلِكَ بِأَنَّهُمْ قَالُوا إِنَّمَا الْبَيْعُ مِثْلُ الرِّبَا ۗ وَأَحَلَّ اللَّهُ الْبَيْعَ وَحَرَّمَ الرِّبَا ۚ فَمَن جَاءَهُ مَوْعِظَةٌ مِّن رَّبِّهِ فَانتَهَىٰ فَلَهُ مَا سَلَفَ وَأَمْرُهُ إِلَى اللَّهِ ۖ وَمَنْ عَادَ فَأُولَٰئِكَ أَصْحَابُ النَّارِ ۖ هُمْ فِيهَا خَالِدُونَ
Those who eat Riba (usury) will not stand (on the Day of Resurrection) except like the standing of a person beaten by Shaitan (Satan) leading him to insanity. That is because they say: "Trading is only like Riba (usury)," whereas Allah has permitted trading and forbidden Riba (usury). So whosoever receives an admonition from his Lord and stops eating Riba (usury) shall not be punished for the past; his case is for Allah (to judge); but whoever returns [to Riba (usury)], such are the dwellers of the Fire - they will abide therein.

I think this addresses your argument head on...

[Qur'aan 2:276]:

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يَمْحَقُ اللَّهُ الرِّبَا وَيُرْبِي الصَّدَقَاتِ ۗ وَاللَّهُ لَا يُحِبُّ كُلَّ كَفَّارٍ أَثِيمٍ
Allah will destroy Riba (usury) and will give increase for Sadaqat (deeds of charity, alms, etc.) And Allah likes not the disbelievers, sinners.

[Qur'aan 4:161]

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وَأَخْذِهِمُ الرِّبَا وَقَدْ نُهُوا عَنْهُ وَأَكْلِهِمْ أَمْوَالَ النَّاسِ بِالْبَاطِلِ ۚ وَأَعْتَدْنَا لِلْكَافِرِينَ مِنْهُمْ عَذَابًا أَلِيمًا
And their taking of Riba (usury) though they were forbidden from taking it and their devouring of men's substance wrongfully (bribery, etc.). And We have prepared for the disbelievers among them a painful torment.

[Qur'aan 5:62]

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وَتَرَىٰ كَثِيرًا مِّنْهُمْ يُسَارِعُونَ فِي الْإِثْمِ وَالْعُدْوَانِ وَأَكْلِهِمُ السُّحْتَ ۚ لَبِئْسَ مَا كَانُوا يَعْمَلُونَ
And you see many of them (Jews) hurrying for sin and transgression, and eating illegal things [as bribes and Riba (usury), etc.]. Evil indeed is that which they have been doing.

@marx was right