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Poll

Do you agree with the current policy?

yes
8 (47.1%)
no
6 (35.3%)
undecided
3 (17.6%)

Total Members Voted 17

Voting closed: March 14, 2018, 07:17:40 PM

Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment 5683  87

Grunt Posts: 86 Karma: +16/-0 ***

LTFan

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Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
« Reply #60 on: March 18, 2018, 10:13:36 AM »
Trash talking is a part of the game. What needs to be moderated is the cancer to this community who literally just log on to be assholes to every single person they see whether they know who it is or not. That kind of behavior has no place in any sort of society and is a huge reason people dont log on anymore. Take me for example. I get tired of logging on and seeing the same 2 people repeatedly being terrible human beings to every single person in chat. So do not moderate trash talking but get rid of the cancers of our community.
Grunt Posts: 184 Karma: +12/-0 ***

Cel

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Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
« Reply #61 on: March 18, 2018, 10:50:01 AM »
I think both you Tora being worried we would ban/drive away from the game more of our members, and Igognito saying we should care that there are some behaviors that hurt our community which could be addressed better are both legitimate concerns that should be taken into account for that matter.

First off I would like to underline that my point about battle.net was that it could be a start to look for other successful communities to see if there is a way they handle thing that we could inspire ourselves from to handle our own problems better without damaging what we already have. It is not about applying their rules to our server blindly.

I dont think we should instantly permaban every single transgressions, that would be kinda insane given our few members and how persistent some of our members can be when they go at it.
It could be more like counting the number of times a player is being so toxic that others take the time to report him and if that count becomes too high (like say 5 players reported him over 5 different issues), then we should look what it is all about using logs or other pieces of evidence we have and if appears that indeed the guy is clearly being toxic and oversteps we would punish him starting from a symbolic very small duration ban and punish further transgressions harder until either he stops or gets a very very long bans.

That could be one way of doing things I am not saying its the one way we should do it I say that is one way I can think of that could work. Maybe there are better ways out there like community tribunals (some games use that)  etc... This is what discussions are for maybe we can come up with something great of our own adapted to our own issues.

We could for example start by establishing a list of behaviors that we think are both pretty easy to stop doing for them bullies in one hand and that are damaging our community and driving people away in the other hand. Like how hard that would really be for oneself to stop harassing players with insults every time they log into the game?
For real is that to much to ask, for a member of our community to try and just be nice to others or at least not be too toxic so that we can still have some people to play with in like 20 years from now? :P
Shouldn't they be willing to do so in the first place?
It is a little effort for a common improved welfare right?
Like say: to avoid harassing others using racist and/or antisemitic insults over and over how big of an effort do you think that is to ask from our members? Would that be too much?

Because it really should be about that shouldn't it?
Trying to maximize the fun of the many at a minimal cost for the rest.

 :critter:

As a matter of fact I pretty much agree with LTFan on that one.
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Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
« Reply #62 on: March 18, 2018, 07:06:14 PM »
Cel makes decent points about the poll not being representative, esp when you consider the newbs who show up briefly and are almost immediately driven away by abuse & exclusion; that figure is easily in the high dozens and likely some hundreds over all the years. but i still think the stated policy is the only one that's really practical to enforce -- pvpgn moderation tools are too outdated & easy to circumvent + it's too time consuming to do for volunteer admins esp for the reasons lamby said.

there's a very clear demarcation between the two types of players, old generation that enjoys gratuitous saltiness & new generation that is more geared towards friendliess, fun & tolerance. rather than trying to forcefully integrate these two types of players by policing behavior on ru, it's always seemed more sensible to me to just segregate the two types altogether, e.g. direct new players towards war2.me or the ru backup server to play & avoid the hateful environment altogether. this would be hard to get off the ground though & would take some dedicated arranging times to play in advance, advertising to get new people to show up at those times, etc. to gradually build up the initial population from scratch. imo it's probably the only realistic way to cultivate a stable population of new players though & would make it much more possible to enforce niceness standards + wouldn't interfere with the regular players.
Axe Thrower Posts: 406 Karma: +24/-1 ****

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Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
« Reply #63 on: March 18, 2018, 09:14:11 PM »
hmmm there are many difficult problems here.

First of all, I agree that the poll is not representative at all.
Second, I agree that ban might not be the best punishment.
Third, I do believe that we need to make a concrete policy for what is considered unacceptable.
Fourth and very important for me, we need to communicate better to the new players.
Fifth, Protect the new players by being stricter when someone harasses them!

Suggested solutions:
for 2) My suggestion: in the line of Cel, we make a SS policy that someone can report toxic behavior (just reporting has no punishment) but after a few reports (like 5 from different players) then the case is automatically going to be examined and if valid punished. After a month we can make a report to auto expire... Saying like you have 5 times to be toxic in the server for free...
We need to discuss the punishments for harassment. I'm more in favor of fame punishments rather than banning.
I like the idea of repeating punishment saying in the lobby: WARNING: Player XXX repetitively harasses, please use \ignore XXX.

for 3) Yes war2 always come with some toxicity and I think none of us here spoke about the provoking swearing... We are talking about harassment that is over the limits.
Take for example van. Van is toxic but I would never report him. I actually play with him and expect him to be toxic, I even want him to be toxic because I know it is van!
But we know that van shit talks to all of us and it is just his behavior of telling you he likes you :-P
When van doesn't shit talk to you is like darn he doesnt want to speak to me... lol
But then there are some people that start swearing to u like if you insulted whatever is more sacred to them. That is unacceptable. Difficult to define but unacceptable.

for 4)  We need to write a nice text with the policy for hacking and for harassing and have it easy to access for new and old players. Like a welcome message. Possibly given by a Bot that u can ask stuff. In practice we need to give access to the tools that the new players can use to be protected.

for 5) We can allow old players to defend new players (submit a ss for them). Also we can have a more severe punishment if you harass a new player (defined by common reason)

Cheers
Grunt Posts: 184 Karma: +12/-0 ***

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Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
« Reply #64 on: March 19, 2018, 04:02:23 AM »
Personally some level of trash talking and saltiness is fine like last tournament Van being savage and explaining how to quit the game when he wins is savage and even can be quite entertaining and fun to be honest I had a good laugh.

The line to not cross I guess if I had to name it would be direct, targeted and uncensored racist/homophobic insults after games in the channels. I literally had to scroll up so my stream would not have the time to read all that crap. That was too much and I am pretty sure we all know the difference.
I mean I am pretty sure anyone can see the difference between being unfriendly, savage and salty versus promoting racial hate, antisemitic insults or homophobic violence even if it is for fun the problem is new players they do not see that, they do not know you, they first see you and all they might take the time to see about you could be just that.

Igognito is right I do not want to ban Van for saying these things I want him and these players to understand the difference and to try to not cross the line as much as possible.

Because I am pretty sure in the end we have a common goal everyone wants to have more people on the server.

Now I don't know what is easy to do I was proposing short bans but yeah it is as useless as it sounds and maybe hard to do. The thing is at least we put it out there and from all of these imagined solutions maybe one can be applied.

So in the best of the worlds I would see a soft punishment like the following:
One cool way would be if we could like mute a player by default :D
Say a player X is muted for having crossed the line then to talk with him by default you would have to unmute him manually until the mute duration is passed. its not a ban and would be more directly targeted and honestly I find it quite fun too :))
Seemed to me like a harder thing to do even if seems like a better and more targeted solution but lets put it out here we never know maybe it helps finding a suitable and more doable solution...

Or/and preventive solutions:
One of the non-punishing preventive solutions would be to have filters like some games do by default and players can remove them if they want. (you know the good old stars ****)
That usually takes care of most of the big bad words and stuff people do not want their kid to see.

IDK this to me also seem like one of the hard to implement solutions but hey, lets put it on the table too we never know and it does not hurt to have a look at it.

 :critter:
Ogre Posts: 1289 Karma: +77/-0 *******

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Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
« Reply #65 on: March 19, 2018, 04:16:57 AM »
Take for example van. Van is toxic but I would never report him. I actually play with him and expect him to be toxic, I even want him to be toxic because I know it is van!

Igognito is right I do not want to ban Van for saying these things I want him and these players to understand the difference and to try to not cross the line as much as possible.

WTF? You say you want people who repeatedly harass people punished ..... but not van because he does it all the time?

WHAT??

The guy is toxic and abusive, but he's YOUR friend so its ok? No it's not.
Grunt Posts: 184 Karma: +12/-0 ***

Cel

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Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
« Reply #66 on: March 19, 2018, 05:02:51 AM »
Well as I said the point is less about how to ban/punish him and/or others than to make him/them stop crossing the line (that yet has to be defined).
Now if it takes bans to make him understand where the line is I am not against it I am just saying I am open for better targeted solutions if we can afford them.

Remember though this is not about one person I only picked Van as an example because the example was fresh in my mind.
But he is not the only one, it would be unfair to just pick on one guy as if he was the only reason we have a problem.
If it wasn't Van it  would be someone else as long as there are no defined limits.
Van is not the source of the disease he is a symptom. :P

 :critter:
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Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
« Reply #67 on: March 19, 2018, 05:47:45 AM »
Van is not the source of the disease he is a symptom.

So far as I know him he has just attacked me with literally zero provocation just because I made a general post about etiquette on this forum. That make him absolutely a major source in my experience. Since then many people have said to me "oh that's just van he does it to everyone". To which my reply is ok well then screw him and the horse he rode in on.

But anyway, my position on this topic remains that we don't need another set of rules to argue over, we just need it to be generally accepted that being an asshole is not ok. Everyone has bad days or occasional arguments, but being continually toxic all the time is not ok.

By the sounds of things van is the epitome of the exact type of behavior we don't want. It's not cute or quirky or that's just van, it's a serial toxic abuser.... and the horse he rode in on.
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Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
« Reply #68 on: March 19, 2018, 06:23:49 AM »
20 years from now :o 2038 :o :o :o most of us will be like clint eastwood from gran torino by then.
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Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
« Reply #69 on: March 19, 2018, 08:22:08 AM »
20 years from now :o 2038 :o :o :o most of us will be like clint eastwood from gran torino by then.

You mean after a lifetime of being abusive racist assholes we will finally do one selfless thing then die?

Cool, I look forward to that post...
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Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
« Reply #70 on: March 19, 2018, 08:48:33 AM »
WTF? You say you want people who repeatedly harass people punished ..... but not van because he does it all the time?

WHAT??

The guy is toxic and abusive, but he's YOUR friend so its ok? No it's not.

Lol that's the thing, if we were to enforce rules the way some players on this thread are advocating regular players like van would inevitably be banned.
Grunt Posts: 109 Karma: +24/-0 ***

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Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
« Reply #71 on: March 19, 2018, 09:48:00 AM »
While I wouldn't really object to a kinder, more accepting atmosphere, I'm opposed to increased censorship measures to regulate asshole behavior as a practical matter for three primary reasons:
1. As already mentioned in this thread, I worry about the unintended consequences for otherwise mild players getting baited in to an argument.
2. The status quo has been established for so long--many current players being part of the community for a decade or longer, that I think change would be difficult for some.
3. While I get that slippery slope is a named argument fallacy, I really do appreciate the administrator's position not to take restrictive on players for pretty much anything except for cheating.  Administrators have changed over the years, but that has remained a constant.  This is not a door I'd like to see opened.
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Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
« Reply #72 on: March 19, 2018, 10:32:50 AM »
WTF? You say you want people who repeatedly harass people punished ..... but not van because he does it all the time?

WHAT??

The guy is toxic and abusive, but he's YOUR friend so its ok? No it's not.

Lol that's the thing, if we were to enforce rules the way some players on this thread are advocating regular players like van would inevitably be banned.


I really don't want to see anyone banned, but openly stating: we will not ban anyone because there are regular players who are complete assholes is just an open invitation to everyone to just keep going.

I honestly would not reccommend war2.ru to anyone who knew my family simply because I am too embarassed to be associated with such a purile group. Even just the main channel is severely NSFW ... or even family and friends... and I quite often swear in normal conversation.

If it takes banning someone to make people stop and think it might be necessary.

Are you suggesting that van is some kind of genuine social retard who honestly CAN'T stop abusing people?... because I'm assuming he just does it because he likes doing it and he can. This is like saying we can't ban map hacks because regular players use them.... no, you just hit them with the naughty stick until they stop bloody hacking.

I'd like to stick up for van here and suggest that he ISN'T some kind of retarded moron, and that he could stop being an utter prick if he put his mind to it.

We don't need more rules, just admins willing to take the issue seriously.

Thoughts anyone? ... van?




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Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
« Reply #73 on: March 19, 2018, 10:54:13 AM »
the poll isn't great because people voting against the "harassment policy" could be against it because they want it to go further, OR because they think it goes too far.  so the written policy is probably even a better compromise position than it would seem.
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Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
« Reply #74 on: March 19, 2018, 12:34:21 PM »
jehova witness + war2  maybe everything went south bitter is a emotion the worst..but somewhere on this round object people are getting killed it never has really ended..rejoice in the day the lord made but for alot is thier last they dont have tommorow and im buzzed gone to jam hell im quiting i got enuff speakers around this place