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Poll

Do you agree with the current policy?

yes
8 (47.1%)
no
6 (35.3%)
undecided
3 (17.6%)

Total Members Voted 17

Voting closed: March 14, 2018, 07:17:40 PM

Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment 6599  83

Axe Thrower Posts: 406 Karma: +24/-1 ****

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Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
« Reply #60 on: March 18, 2018, 09:14:11 PM »
hmmm there are many difficult problems here.

First of all, I agree that the poll is not representative at all.
Second, I agree that ban might not be the best punishment.
Third, I do believe that we need to make a concrete policy for what is considered unacceptable.
Fourth and very important for me, we need to communicate better to the new players.
Fifth, Protect the new players by being stricter when someone harasses them!

Suggested solutions:
for 2) My suggestion: in the line of Cel, we make a SS policy that someone can report toxic behavior (just reporting has no punishment) but after a few reports (like 5 from different players) then the case is automatically going to be examined and if valid punished. After a month we can make a report to auto expire... Saying like you have 5 times to be toxic in the server for free...
We need to discuss the punishments for harassment. I'm more in favor of fame punishments rather than banning.
I like the idea of repeating punishment saying in the lobby: WARNING: Player XXX repetitively harasses, please use \ignore XXX.

for 3) Yes war2 always come with some toxicity and I think none of us here spoke about the provoking swearing... We are talking about harassment that is over the limits.
Take for example van. Van is toxic but I would never report him. I actually play with him and expect him to be toxic, I even want him to be toxic because I know it is van!
But we know that van shit talks to all of us and it is just his behavior of telling you he likes you :-P
When van doesn't shit talk to you is like darn he doesnt want to speak to me... lol
But then there are some people that start swearing to u like if you insulted whatever is more sacred to them. That is unacceptable. Difficult to define but unacceptable.

for 4)  We need to write a nice text with the policy for hacking and for harassing and have it easy to access for new and old players. Like a welcome message. Possibly given by a Bot that u can ask stuff. In practice we need to give access to the tools that the new players can use to be protected.

for 5) We can allow old players to defend new players (submit a ss for them). Also we can have a more severe punishment if you harass a new player (defined by common reason)

Cheers
Grunt Posts: 184 Karma: +12/-0 ***

Cel

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Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
« Reply #61 on: March 19, 2018, 04:02:23 AM »
Personally some level of trash talking and saltiness is fine like last tournament Van being savage and explaining how to quit the game when he wins is savage and even can be quite entertaining and fun to be honest I had a good laugh.

The line to not cross I guess if I had to name it would be direct, targeted and uncensored racist/homophobic insults after games in the channels. I literally had to scroll up so my stream would not have the time to read all that crap. That was too much and I am pretty sure we all know the difference.
I mean I am pretty sure anyone can see the difference between being unfriendly, savage and salty versus promoting racial hate, antisemitic insults or homophobic violence even if it is for fun the problem is new players they do not see that, they do not know you, they first see you and all they might take the time to see about you could be just that.

Igognito is right I do not want to ban Van for saying these things I want him and these players to understand the difference and to try to not cross the line as much as possible.

Because I am pretty sure in the end we have a common goal everyone wants to have more people on the server.

Now I don't know what is easy to do I was proposing short bans but yeah it is as useless as it sounds and maybe hard to do. The thing is at least we put it out there and from all of these imagined solutions maybe one can be applied.

So in the best of the worlds I would see a soft punishment like the following:
One cool way would be if we could like mute a player by default :D
Say a player X is muted for having crossed the line then to talk with him by default you would have to unmute him manually until the mute duration is passed. its not a ban and would be more directly targeted and honestly I find it quite fun too :))
Seemed to me like a harder thing to do even if seems like a better and more targeted solution but lets put it out here we never know maybe it helps finding a suitable and more doable solution...

Or/and preventive solutions:
One of the non-punishing preventive solutions would be to have filters like some games do by default and players can remove them if they want. (you know the good old stars ****)
That usually takes care of most of the big bad words and stuff people do not want their kid to see.

IDK this to me also seem like one of the hard to implement solutions but hey, lets put it on the table too we never know and it does not hurt to have a look at it.

 :critter:
Ogre Posts: 1472 Karma: +80/-1 *******

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Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
« Reply #62 on: March 19, 2018, 04:16:57 AM »
Take for example van. Van is toxic but I would never report him. I actually play with him and expect him to be toxic, I even want him to be toxic because I know it is van!

Igognito is right I do not want to ban Van for saying these things I want him and these players to understand the difference and to try to not cross the line as much as possible.

WTF? You say you want people who repeatedly harass people punished ..... but not van because he does it all the time?

WHAT??

The guy is toxic and abusive, but he's YOUR friend so its ok? No it's not.
Grunt Posts: 184 Karma: +12/-0 ***

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Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
« Reply #63 on: March 19, 2018, 05:02:51 AM »
Well as I said the point is less about how to ban/punish him and/or others than to make him/them stop crossing the line (that yet has to be defined).
Now if it takes bans to make him understand where the line is I am not against it I am just saying I am open for better targeted solutions if we can afford them.

Remember though this is not about one person I only picked Van as an example because the example was fresh in my mind.
But he is not the only one, it would be unfair to just pick on one guy as if he was the only reason we have a problem.
If it wasn't Van it  would be someone else as long as there are no defined limits.
Van is not the source of the disease he is a symptom. :P

 :critter:
Ogre Posts: 1472 Karma: +80/-1 *******

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Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
« Reply #64 on: March 19, 2018, 05:47:45 AM »
Van is not the source of the disease he is a symptom.

So far as I know him he has just attacked me with literally zero provocation just because I made a general post about etiquette on this forum. That make him absolutely a major source in my experience. Since then many people have said to me "oh that's just van he does it to everyone". To which my reply is ok well then screw him and the horse he rode in on.

But anyway, my position on this topic remains that we don't need another set of rules to argue over, we just need it to be generally accepted that being an asshole is not ok. Everyone has bad days or occasional arguments, but being continually toxic all the time is not ok.

By the sounds of things van is the epitome of the exact type of behavior we don't want. It's not cute or quirky or that's just van, it's a serial toxic abuser.... and the horse he rode in on.
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Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
« Reply #65 on: March 19, 2018, 06:23:49 AM »
20 years from now :o 2038 :o :o :o most of us will be like clint eastwood from gran torino by then.
Ogre Posts: 1472 Karma: +80/-1 *******

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Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
« Reply #66 on: March 19, 2018, 08:22:08 AM »
20 years from now :o 2038 :o :o :o most of us will be like clint eastwood from gran torino by then.

You mean after a lifetime of being abusive racist assholes we will finally do one selfless thing then die?

Cool, I look forward to that post...
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Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
« Reply #67 on: March 19, 2018, 08:48:33 AM »
WTF? You say you want people who repeatedly harass people punished ..... but not van because he does it all the time?

WHAT??

The guy is toxic and abusive, but he's YOUR friend so its ok? No it's not.

Lol that's the thing, if we were to enforce rules the way some players on this thread are advocating regular players like van would inevitably be banned.
Grunt Posts: 109 Karma: +24/-0 ***

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Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
« Reply #68 on: March 19, 2018, 09:48:00 AM »
While I wouldn't really object to a kinder, more accepting atmosphere, I'm opposed to increased censorship measures to regulate asshole behavior as a practical matter for three primary reasons:
1. As already mentioned in this thread, I worry about the unintended consequences for otherwise mild players getting baited in to an argument.
2. The status quo has been established for so long--many current players being part of the community for a decade or longer, that I think change would be difficult for some.
3. While I get that slippery slope is a named argument fallacy, I really do appreciate the administrator's position not to take restrictive on players for pretty much anything except for cheating.  Administrators have changed over the years, but that has remained a constant.  This is not a door I'd like to see opened.
Ogre Posts: 1472 Karma: +80/-1 *******

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Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
« Reply #69 on: March 19, 2018, 10:32:50 AM »
WTF? You say you want people who repeatedly harass people punished ..... but not van because he does it all the time?

WHAT??

The guy is toxic and abusive, but he's YOUR friend so its ok? No it's not.

Lol that's the thing, if we were to enforce rules the way some players on this thread are advocating regular players like van would inevitably be banned.


I really don't want to see anyone banned, but openly stating: we will not ban anyone because there are regular players who are complete assholes is just an open invitation to everyone to just keep going.

I honestly would not reccommend war2.ru to anyone who knew my family simply because I am too embarassed to be associated with such a purile group. Even just the main channel is severely NSFW ... or even family and friends... and I quite often swear in normal conversation.

If it takes banning someone to make people stop and think it might be necessary.

Are you suggesting that van is some kind of genuine social retard who honestly CAN'T stop abusing people?... because I'm assuming he just does it because he likes doing it and he can. This is like saying we can't ban map hacks because regular players use them.... no, you just hit them with the naughty stick until they stop bloody hacking.

I'd like to stick up for van here and suggest that he ISN'T some kind of retarded moron, and that he could stop being an utter prick if he put his mind to it.

We don't need more rules, just admins willing to take the issue seriously.

Thoughts anyone? ... van?




"The Architect" Global Moderator Dragon Posts: 5074 Karma: +203/-111 *****

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Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
« Reply #70 on: March 19, 2018, 10:54:13 AM »
the poll isn't great because people voting against the "harassment policy" could be against it because they want it to go further, OR because they think it goes too far.  so the written policy is probably even a better compromise position than it would seem.
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Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
« Reply #71 on: March 19, 2018, 12:34:21 PM »
jehova witness + war2  maybe everything went south bitter is a emotion the worst..but somewhere on this round object people are getting killed it never has really ended..rejoice in the day the lord made but for alot is thier last they dont have tommorow and im buzzed gone to jam hell im quiting i got enuff speakers around this place
Grunt Posts: 184 Karma: +12/-0 ***

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Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
« Reply #72 on: March 19, 2018, 03:07:02 PM »
While I wouldn't really object to a kinder, more accepting atmosphere, I'm opposed to increased censorship measures to regulate asshole behavior as a practical matter for three primary reasons:
1. As already mentioned in this thread, I worry about the unintended consequences for otherwise mild players getting baited in to an argument.
2. The status quo has been established for so long--many current players being part of the community for a decade or longer, that I think change would be difficult for some.
3. While I get that slippery slope is a named argument fallacy, I really do appreciate the administrator's position not to take restrictive on players for pretty much anything except for cheating.  Administrators have changed over the years, but that has remained a constant.  This is not a door I'd like to see opened.

As I mentioned, even if you are pushed hard there is a difference between being salty or insulting and promoting racial hate, antisemitic talks, or homophobic violence...
I do not mind censorship for the three last ones honestly.

Also as I mentioned banning people wont solve anything by itself.
The goal here is to improve the atmosphere for new players not punish people I don't care what you have done in the past I just want us as a community to stop pushing new comers away plain and simple.

Now banning seemed like a easy solution but still the best solutions for me are:
- Chat profanity filters enabled by default that you can disable if you are ok with reading disgusting things. (I would definitely enable these when I stream)
- Mute players that do not behave for a duration, a muted player is squelched by default for everyone else players are free to unsquelch him if they want to but by default he speaks to himself. < Now that would be the best sentence because targeted toward what really was not ok.

None of these involve banning people as you might be able to tell.
Now if these cannot be adopted because too complicated we still can try to teach people not to cross lines using slowly increasing ban durations just saying that is still better than no actions at all.

Because yes some people's freedom of speech right now, directly impacts everyone else's fun by pushing people away and polluting our common space.
You want more freedom? Me too!
I am pretty sure new players would like to have the freedom to play the game without being directly attacked or exposed to disgusting and endless monologues.

About things always being that way have a look to the allegory of the cavern that is the only thing I see coming from that argument...
Now if there is a way to improve everyone's fun and freedom at a minimal cost for the most toxic of us by forcing them to behave a little that is definitely a door I'd like to see opened, it is ok to fear progress that should not stop us from seeking it :P
Grunt Posts: 163 Karma: +19/-0 ***

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Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
« Reply #73 on: March 19, 2018, 05:25:45 PM »
If you ban trash talking, Swift will stop winning games in chat lobby and get raped 24/7.
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Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
« Reply #74 on: March 19, 2018, 05:58:45 PM »
We're going to ban performance enhancing drugs (no more niacin)