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Poll

Should we try removing win/loss counters? (if possible)

Yes I dont mind removing them or at least give it a try (if doable)
2 (25%)
Yes we may remove win/loss but we should keep a number of games played (in between)
1 (12.5%)
No I think we should keep the win/loss counters as is and I can advocate why they are good
5 (62.5%)

Total Members Voted 8

Encourage players to play for the challenge. Remove counters all together :P 1357  40

Grunt Posts: 54 Karma: +6/-0 ***

Cel

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Encourage players to play for the challenge. Remove counters all together :P
« on: March 07, 2018, 07:39:42 PM »
I discussed with a lot of new players since I joined war2.ru and there is one common thing that always comes out of it "I don't want to play because I am bad" also "players are just super rude when you don't perform well" etc we all have heard that don't we?

My point is the following:
Since when did it become more cool and rewarding to win a game than to have a challenging and hard game even though we might or will most likely loose it?

Well from what I see the way we do stats does go this way, and trust me even though all say stats are stupid and don't mean anything some people do take it pretty seriously.

Here is one example:
I played a game against a player that was much stronger than me (I wont give any name its not the point) but he tried something that went wrong and instead of playing the game as it was and have a challenging and hard game he basically asked me to ally victory as he really wasn't planning to loose a game like for real! You join a game and play it only if you think you wont loose? Because I didn't want that person to feel bad I accepted but hey man if that is not misplaced pride what is that?
Thus the question above ^

So my proposal is the following we remove these counters all together, they don't mean anything they just encourage people to put value in the win more than the fun and the challenge a game brings. So from what I see they just don't bring anything good to the game at all so lets just get rid of them.

So you might argue well then how do we know people skill levels, and I say well you never did know... At least now if the guy was surfing it wont change your stupid stats so you can quit whining about it play the game make yourself an idea of that player's level and next game you can already balance it better.

If we really want to have some kind of ranking system it should be separated from the usual games people play. And surely it should adopt a elo system where there is no reward when you win against a much lower elo player.
Here is one explaination of how it could work:

How Elo Ratings Are Calculated - YouTube

But for casual games they should have no recording so that people don't feel punished when they try crazy stupid things to make the games more fun / tricky.

Some people (me to take one random example) genuinely don't care about their stats so when I feel my team is a bit stacked I play something that is most likely to under-perform but still is fun and can work so that everyone has a chance to win and most of the time it even is rewarding to win that way or even loose if you put a good fight and it was intense. I would like us to try to encourage these kind of behaviors.

If that happens then new players might not loose as many games and if they do well at least there will not be a constant reminder for anyone so see and pick on.
They should be proud of playing the game even though its hard.
In that way they even deserve more respect than some much stronger players if you ask me :P

So yeah my point we remove them counters so we get:
> less judging and bullying over meaningless numbers.
> less incentive to stack teams
> less misplaced pride that goes in the way of fun
> less punishing risk taking
> more fun for everyone overall
Sappers Posts: 837 Karma: +53/-3 ******

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Re: Encourage players to play for the challenge. Remove counters all together :P
« Reply #1 on: March 07, 2018, 07:42:19 PM »
You can achieve the same result with players that want this by agreeing to ally victory all every game you play before starting. :)
Grunt Posts: 54 Karma: +6/-0 ***

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Re: Encourage players to play for the challenge. Remove counters all together :P
« Reply #2 on: March 07, 2018, 07:55:18 PM »
The point is you wouldn't even have to do that since winning or loosing would not matter at all in the end you would just be happy that you had a good game.
Plus this is more about giving incentive to more people to naturally seek challenging experiences and balanced games over stock piling stupid points over intentionally stacked games.
You would be surprised to see how much a simple change on the rewarding system in a game can change players behaviors and experience overall.
In our case I think that wouldn't really cost anything and could be very rewarding.

Especially when it comes to the way new players are introduced to the game.

I am just pointing out that maybe that is something we could discuss and think about as it could induce good changes at very low cost.  ^-^
Ogre Posts: 1219 Karma: +134/-13 *******

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Re: Encourage players to play for the challenge. Remove counters all together :P
« Reply #3 on: March 07, 2018, 09:09:03 PM »
Remove all units except archers
Sappers Posts: 955 Karma: +61/-0 ******

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Re: Encourage players to play for the challenge. Remove counters all together :P
« Reply #4 on: March 07, 2018, 09:19:14 PM »
Remove all units except archers

YES!  :thumbsup:  :thumbsup:  :thumbsup:
Grunt Posts: 54 Karma: +6/-0 ***

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Re: Encourage players to play for the challenge. Remove counters all together :P
« Reply #5 on: March 07, 2018, 09:23:19 PM »
That would make it less exotic and unexpected though  :))

When a team is stacked replace all attacking units they can buy by skeletons now that is a handicap XD

BTW your archers killed a looot of mages with them transports in that game:

HSC | XuRnT/Cel/Raz/Restless vs. Seth/Everlast/Neau/ggggowwww - YouTube

That is actually a very good example of how self inflicted handicaps and rules can lead to both challenging and fun games :-)

What I am proposing is just making sure we do all we can to help players be in that state of mind where they want to get the most of each game, have fun and most challenging games possible and nothing stops them or deters them from that.
Especially being bad or having new players in their games and/or taking risks. ;-)
Death Knight Posts: 2660 Karma: +52/-7 *********

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Re: Encourage players to play for the challenge. Remove counters all together :P
« Reply #6 on: March 07, 2018, 09:59:18 PM »
People are silly ... They want wins to make themselves feel good about themselves. They honestly think their win/loss record validates their skill.

How come I can have a losing record and dominate 95% of war2 players 1v1 in their map/res/speed?
Grunt Posts: 61 Karma: +2/-0 ***

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Re: Encourage players to play for the challenge. Remove counters all together :P
« Reply #7 on: March 07, 2018, 10:12:41 PM »
People are silly ... They want wins to make themselves feel good about themselves. They honestly think their win/loss record validates their skill.

How come I can have a losing record and dominate 95% of war2 players 1v1 in their map/res/speed?

Because you’re a terrible teammate?
;p


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Axe Thrower Posts: 292 Karma: +37/-2 ****

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Re: Encourage players to play for the challenge. Remove counters all together :P
« Reply #8 on: March 07, 2018, 10:41:02 PM »
People are silly ... They want wins to make themselves feel good about themselves. They honestly think their win/loss record validates their skill.

How come I can have a losing record and dominate 95% of war2 players 1v1 in their map/res/speed?

Because you’re a terrible teammate?
;p


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Lol
Death Knight Posts: 2660 Karma: +52/-7 *********

tk[as]

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Re: Encourage players to play for the challenge. Remove counters all together :P
« Reply #9 on: March 08, 2018, 11:35:06 AM »
People are silly ... They want wins to make themselves feel good about themselves. They honestly think their win/loss record validates their skill.

How come I can have a losing record and dominate 95% of war2 players 1v1 in their map/res/speed?

Because you’re a terrible teammate?
;p


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Oh please! You and I both know I'm a phenomenal dancer now I know you're lying through your teeth
Axe Thrower Posts: 405 Karma: +24/-1 ****

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Re: Encourage players to play for the challenge. Remove counters all together :P
« Reply #10 on: March 08, 2018, 11:54:34 AM »
We do have an ELO system.
I implemented one. It is reported together with the Ladder system and only takes in account the ladder games.
Also if my bot is online (intel) you can ask for the elo of a player with a message to intel.

\m intel igognito(z)

Grunt Posts: 54 Karma: +6/-0 ***

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Re: Encourage players to play for the challenge. Remove counters all together :P
« Reply #11 on: March 08, 2018, 03:24:11 PM »
I mean yeah a true elo system is good and more relevant than plain stupid win/loss counters still I believe that not all games should be recorded.

Only specific ones like iron man or "ranked" ones we could make a rule that if you want your game to be counted in you have to add "[ranked]" in the end of the game name or something.
That way anyone that enters it knows it counts and the rest of "non ranked" games could be a place where people feel free to try things and seek a challenge without necessarily hurting their "rank".

I mean I know it feels like it is a small thing but overall you'd be surprised how much little things like that can subconsciously change human behaviors.
Berserker Posts: 696 Karma: +35/-0 *****

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Re: Encourage players to play for the challenge. Remove counters all together :P
« Reply #12 on: March 08, 2018, 03:25:34 PM »
lets make official spoof hack, if some1 join there will be no name just empty space and u will dont know vs who u are playing (-ping only for mods!)

yes i fap all the time "oh i got +50%wr yessssssssssssss yessssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss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Peon Posts: 20 Karma: +1/-0 **

WyZe

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Re: Encourage players to play for the challenge. Remove counters all together :P
« Reply #13 on: March 08, 2018, 04:20:13 PM »
> less judging and bullying over meaningless numbers. - No one judges players based on their stats, i.e. people still let TTP into their games. They know each others skill level without stats.
> less incentive to stack teams - People stack to win, not to buff their stats, they could just play LOLEZWIN! to buff their stats if that's what they cared about.
> less misplaced pride that goes in the way of fun - How?
> less punishing risk taking - Uhhh..
> more fun for everyone overall - n0pe.
Grunt Posts: 54 Karma: +6/-0 ***

Cel

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Cel

Re: Encourage players to play for the challenge. Remove counters all together :P
« Reply #14 on: March 08, 2018, 04:51:35 PM »
Ok so other questions:
Why do you want to keep these numbers?
What do they really mean to you?
What good are they overall?

I can give you reasons why they can have a negative effects on players behaviors using rational incentive game theory.
Now you say you don't want to ditch them give me one reason we should keep them.
 :critter:

*Grabbing popcorn*