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Poll

Should we try removing win/loss counters? (if possible)

Yes I dont mind removing them or at least give it a try (if doable)
2 (25%)
Yes we may remove win/loss but we should keep a number of games played (in between)
1 (12.5%)
No I think we should keep the win/loss counters as is and I can advocate why they are good
5 (62.5%)

Total Members Voted 8

Encourage players to play for the challenge. Remove counters all together :P 1737  40

Peon Posts: 21 Karma: +1/-0 **

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Re: Encourage players to play for the challenge. Remove counters all together :P
« Reply #15 on: March 08, 2018, 05:01:33 PM »
They mean nothing to me, I'm just playing devils advocate because I think your entire premise is flimsy nonsense that only makes sense in your head and won't change anything even if they are removed.

lol @ rational incentive game theory though, that's good.

Grunt Posts: 101 Karma: +10/-0 ***

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Re: Encourage players to play for the challenge. Remove counters all together :P
« Reply #16 on: March 08, 2018, 06:25:50 PM »
Well here is the approach my logic follows when I say we can easily identify reasons why they can have a negative effect on player's behaviors:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behavioral_game_theory
Indeed game theory is good and a very powerful way of analyzing consequences of rules and actions on people's behaviors.

Now even if you think that is bullshit and you think that argument is not good enough well give us one reason we should keep them.
One reason why you would think we need these numbers.

I am not saying removing them is the only way I am saying we should start thinking about this and maybe discuss it.

I have a proposition I think it might be a good start lets discuss it, mix points of views, and maybe agree on something.
I am willing to stay open minded but for the moment I honestly do not see what these numbers are good for though I can see reasons why we would be better off without them.

Again very very small change but hey maybe someone put these numbers there for a reason?
I want to know what it is.
So maybe we can talk about this see if that reason still stands and if there is a better reason to get rid of them and/or change the thing.
Ogre Posts: 1025 Karma: +66/-0 *******

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Re: Encourage players to play for the challenge. Remove counters all together :P
« Reply #17 on: March 08, 2018, 07:11:06 PM »
I don't care about stats. They mean very little. GOW ef players will have disproportionatly larger win stats because there is tradition of watchings games in that format. Total games played/watched is relevant, as is the % of discs.

I don't think the stats system will or should be changed, simply because it is a job that someone has to do, you can't just snap your fingers and these things magically happen, someone - presumable iL would have to devote their time to doing this, and I think if he had spare time to spend on server mods he would do something more useful - or IDK maybe this is simple to change.

Either way, personally I really don't care about stats.
Grunt Posts: 101 Karma: +10/-0 ***

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Re: Encourage players to play for the challenge. Remove counters all together :P
« Reply #18 on: March 08, 2018, 07:21:06 PM »
^Now that is more constructive thinking it might be hard to do although if it is on server side it could be also very easy depending on how it is done and of course that would be a good concern to take into consideration.

I changed the poll options because I wasn't being very constructive and did not reflect properly the open-mind I was saying I would keep so there you go lets be a bit more serious about this :-)

If it is doable and you guys want to keep these numbers I want to know why and your point of views and your thinking behind it.
Grunt Posts: 201 Karma: +5/-3 Hullo ***

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Re: Encourage players to play for the challenge. Remove counters all together :P
« Reply #19 on: March 08, 2018, 07:49:56 PM »
I understand the negative side affects, but as a competitive player, I will likely quit for good if there is no stat component. I would lose motivation other than sporadically playing with random friends that are also rarely ever on. Some people play only for stats still, which is kind of funny this game being so old and stats meaning nothing, but I would like to see status quo maintained. Focus effort on server improvements like hosting issues/ping rather than something that holds little bearing to noobs getting in or out of games.
Grunt Posts: 101 Karma: +10/-0 ***

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Re: Encourage players to play for the challenge. Remove counters all together :P
« Reply #20 on: March 08, 2018, 08:09:36 PM »
I am not talking about removing all kind of stats/ranking more about keeping them where they are relevant and remove the ones that are not.
This is about clear separation providing both competitive ranking and serious gaming as we know it.
And a place where you can do all the bad things you want without it be counted anywhere so people feel they have a place to practice.

Basically you would just have to say your game is ranked so people know when they get in and are in the right state of mind.
These games would have way more relevant stats too.
We already have a ranking system what I am talking about are the win/loss counters you have in your profile that I think do not add competitiveness but still may have negative effects.

These are the only ones I am talking about removing I do not want to remove the ladder just maybe make it more clear when a game will be ranked and not for everyone :-)

If you are a competitive player you would see how it actually helps your cause.
From that perspective to have both things separated new players will tend to avoid ranked games until they think they are ready so you will get more interesting and serious games.
Also because basically in a ranked game you don't have watchers you can have ranked team games stats that mean something now that would be nice.
Ogre Mage Posts: 2424 Karma: +107/-8 The General ********

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Re: Encourage players to play for the challenge. Remove counters all together :P
« Reply #21 on: March 08, 2018, 08:16:42 PM »
Will never happen.
We been waiting for the next AH update for 2 years now. Odds of something like this materializing is slim to none.
Grunt Posts: 67 Karma: +2/-0 ***

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Re: Encourage players to play for the challenge. Remove counters all together :P
« Reply #22 on: March 08, 2018, 08:33:03 PM »
I would be interested to know how you would get to an Elo for any game type outside of 1v1. Is this possible?

Lots of players never do 1v1s, or enough over a period of time to establish a stable and representative elo.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Grunt Posts: 101 Karma: +10/-0 ***

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Re: Encourage players to play for the challenge. Remove counters all together :P
« Reply #23 on: March 08, 2018, 08:38:51 PM »
Mankind always wanted to fly some said it would never happen because none could reach that goal before them
yet that did not stop humanity to seek solutions and  to eventually succeed.

What I mean by that is that it does not hurt to ask/discuss about it and check our options see what we can do toward these goals.

But if we stay in the cave and watch at the wall we'll never see what's possible or not out there.
Maybe that is not worth, maybe it is worth, in any case if that has a potential to have a positive effect on the community at a very low cost that is worth talking about don't you agree?

Yet we do not know what it would take to make that change it is true but it is quite common to a lot of great ideas you start with an idea and then you think about how to make it happen and if you can :-)

@Meck yes it is possible to adapt a elo system to team games though for that to work we need to make sure that all players are on the same page when you start the game and that team cannot be changed afterward. At the moment it is impossible to know if a game was played seriously or if there were trolls, watchers or else in the game. The idea to keep ranked games separated from the rest by say making hosts add a keyword like "ranked" in the title of the game for it to be ranked would help toward that goal.
Ogre Posts: 1025 Karma: +66/-0 *******

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Re: Encourage players to play for the challenge. Remove counters all together :P
« Reply #24 on: March 08, 2018, 10:21:37 PM »
I would be interested to know how you would get to an Elo for any game type outside of 1v1. Is this possible?

Lots of players never do 1v1s, or enough over a period of time to establish a stable and representative elo.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yeah I usually only do 1s as a last resort if I can't get a team game, that or sometimes with friends when were just chatting and having a laugh while we play.
Grunt Posts: 161 Karma: +6/-0 we r a dying breed...tolerate 1 another... ***

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Re: Encourage players to play for the challenge. Remove counters all together :P
« Reply #25 on: March 09, 2018, 12:39:00 AM »
Not all wins are equal remember that... Only i leave games when i win.. or troll/point shaving for someone to win to make them feel better about themselves... ie when someone dont want to vis me after i asked multiple times i will leave the game and not take a win..  to me its really just a game that i enjoy to play/watch... stats is just but stats. real recognize real... but there are times where i do feel the high from it and i get cocky from time to time.. but i try to keep myself in check... nuff said gg ??? :o :P >:D ;)
Axe Thrower Posts: 406 Karma: +24/-1 ****

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Re: Encourage players to play for the challenge. Remove counters all together :P
« Reply #26 on: March 09, 2018, 06:15:17 AM »
Hi all,

My penny to the topic.

1) \stats as is now should be ignored... Better use \m Intel XXX. That will give you the ladder stats and Elo of player. Not perfect but much more representative.

2) \stats should be interpreted as total # of games and # of disconnects. Wins/loss ratio is irrelevant.

To this I would like to point out that I would prefer a title rather than the numbers.
Something like new player is a: Peon, 500+ games is an axe throwing, 1000+ games a grunt etc...
Similar with the forum titles.

3) team games are complicated to evaluate. I had made some suggestions when I was developing the Elo.
If people are interested we can implement a team Elo score in parallel with the Elo score.

4) watchers are not a problem as the are detected for ladder games. Trolls are a problem...

5) I would keep my hopes low to see anything being integrated in game. But I could implement anything out of the game and Intel could be doing the reporting in game.

Cheers
Berserker Posts: 621 Karma: +18/-3 *****

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Re: Encourage players to play for the challenge. Remove counters all together :P
« Reply #27 on: March 09, 2018, 02:33:06 PM »
i like it. and cel was talking about me.
Grunt Posts: 101 Karma: +10/-0 ***

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Re: Encourage players to play for the challenge. Remove counters all together :P
« Reply #28 on: March 09, 2018, 04:18:02 PM »
When stupid numbers stop you from enjoying, have fun and playing a game that is when we can question why we need them in the first place.  :critter:
Berserker Posts: 621 Karma: +18/-3 *****

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Re: Encourage players to play for the challenge. Remove counters all together :P
« Reply #29 on: March 10, 2018, 03:45:49 AM »
cel i would think you knew about the importance of carrot and stick in a game since you've designed games and all.

Edit: btw cel keep me out of your stories. your version of the story is highly biased. By the way u telling this story in the biased manner u tell the story reduces my game experience and makes u part of the problem.