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Poll

Should we try removing win/loss counters? (if possible)

Yes I dont mind removing them or at least give it a try (if doable)
2 (25%)
Yes we may remove win/loss but we should keep a number of games played (in between)
1 (12.5%)
No I think we should keep the win/loss counters as is and I can advocate why they are good
5 (62.5%)

Total Members Voted 8

Encourage players to play for the challenge. Remove counters all together :P 1443  40

Grunt Posts: 72 Karma: +7/-0 ***

Cel

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Re: Encourage players to play for the challenge. Remove counters all together :P
« Reply #30 on: March 10, 2018, 05:15:44 AM »
? biased how so?

BTW I never said it was you you just happen to find yourself in that story.
Well indeed, we had such a story though it is also quite relevant too.

See the problem is the carrot and the stick are stupidly designed. We are talking about highly inefficient and corrupted way of counting wins and loss that do not give you incentive to play better or even promote competition.

I think it is better to have a place where we don't count so you can loose after trying to hop without knowing how it works :P.

And later when you know how to play and you feel like you are in a mood to play seriously you can play a ranked game where your rank is actually properly representing your real level in the community.

Not just how many time you destroyed new players and lower level players in a stacked and unfair manner.

You want a carrot well lets make a carrot but not one that will make you want to stack games, better one that makes you seek competitive and challenging opponents.

I am talking about a real Elo system like in any competitive games you see today in E-Sports.
And a clear separation between ranked games and non ranked games.
Berserker Posts: 720 Karma: +36/-0 *****

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Re: Encourage players to play for the challenge. Remove counters all together :P
« Reply #31 on: March 10, 2018, 05:51:56 AM »
any system in w2 WONT WORK since there is 200? active players, most of them will dodge cause they dont want lose "elo"
System will work if there will be ladder like in sc/w3 where u cant choose your opponent

if some1 want "free wins" there should be option buy "1000 wins but u need 5$ donate tours" -_-
Grunt Posts: 72 Karma: +7/-0 ***

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Re: Encourage players to play for the challenge. Remove counters all together :P
« Reply #32 on: March 10, 2018, 09:23:12 PM »
Most of them wont have to dodge they would just play non ranked games and have fun.
Though I agree having a ranked blind queue would be awesome though close to impossible to do as you would have to edit the .exe quite heavily.

Unless:
We (I could do that) make a ranked queue system outside of the game that you register on with your in game aka.

On a dedicated site you would basically queue up you or even with your team and basically say if you can host.
The site then gives you your opponent out of a random list and you then have to meet in game, host the game with the map and settings the site gives you and play.
(you would have to run insight though so we caster can get some great replays after games are played but also because it would make conflicts easier to fix).

We could even think of adding the possibility to pick/ ban maps from the list of maps we want to feature.
And also say one or two type or starting resources. (like for example you don't want to play high res).
And much more, these kind of features are then very easy to set up.

We could have two types of queue:
One for when you want to play within a certain time frame:
Of course when you click the button you basically say to the site you are ready to play/host the game within that timeline could be from now to like one or two hours depending on the time you say you have. Then the algorithm would try to match you up with people on that same timeline.

The other queue is like timeless it gives you your opponent and try to minimize ELO difference and until you played that opponent on the given settings you cannot play someone else on that queue.

No shows (games that are not played) we could have something following this idea:
For the time frame queue the site gives you like 20 min to show up and create the game with the name and password given and play it.
Players have to show up with the correct AKA.
The host has to create the game within the first 10 min then click a button to say the game is created.
Then the rest of the players have to join the game within the remaining time.
Players click a button and the site will try to find that game if it is up. It will say the game is up if it is but if it was not found although host said it was up then host is declared to have lost the game so host has to keep hosting.
Once all players are in the game game can start.
Any other conflict like host booting people and players leaving game would require SS as proof.
we could also have an option for all players to basically say they couldn't play the match for x reason in which case one player can click a button and if all players click it the match is cancelled plain and simple ( for example host and player conflict lag or drops ). Again here if game is not playable and players do not agree then a ss can solve the issue. (maybe we can even see logs for latency or drops).

I mean that is a possibility this I know it is doable and would deserve a topic to make sure we design this together.
Here though we talk about removing the two counters that shows when you do /stats.
These counters are the only thing I am talking about removing in that post as I think it would be better to have nothing than this.
We could either remove them completely or replace them by just the number of games played overall which is actually the only real thing you can read from them anyways.

:-)
Grunt Posts: 106 Karma: +11/-0 ***

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Re: Encourage players to play for the challenge. Remove counters all together :P
« Reply #33 on: March 10, 2018, 11:04:34 PM »
After every game i play, I type / stats THEN BEAT MY FUCKING CHEST LIKE A FUCKING APE, AINT NOBODY GOING TO STOP ME oR HOLD ME DOWN> I played on Kali where there were no official stats and if both people got back doored on friends, people would peon Hop and a stand off or a stale mate would occur. IF the guy eventually left, U had to take a SS incase he tried to lie in chat about the loss. Like Malik Yoba in Cool Runnings “When I look in Dee mirror, I SEE PRIDE, I SEE POWER, I SEE A BAD MUTHA FUCKAA WHO DONT TAKE SHIT FROM NoBODY”  The Current system is allowable for both philosophies, those who prefer more competitive stakes or those who don’t take numbers as serious or only vs certain players.  I host a lot of games and stats make it easier for me to balance teams, someone with a 1:5 Loss ratio requires a stronger player etc. Like a trophy some players take pride after a hard fought victory and there are still tons of people dicking around exploring more creative strats with out sacrificing the competitive nature,  So what if some people take pride in their stats,  it’s not your place to say, not everyone has to share your value or belief system. Takes a lot of audacity to think you’re going to some how impose your beliefs upon the entire server because you’ve had a few unpleasant experiences and don’t like to Av people (I could give 2 shits).  Clearly your a liberal, u have a strange notion you’re going to some how socially engineer the server for participation trophies and have displayed clear contempt in your poll with anyone who has an opposing view point. You’re posting a lot of unrealistic non sense, bad ideas aside its hard to take a chop player seriously on matters concerning actual war2. DONNY YOU’RE OUT OF YOUR ELEMENT^


You never provided your Supposed “game theory” analogy , posting a wiki link makes u a poser who doesn’t know
what the fuck ur talking about.
Sappers Posts: 975 Karma: +62/-0 ******

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Re: Encourage players to play for the challenge. Remove counters all together :P
« Reply #34 on: March 10, 2018, 11:18:13 PM »
hard to take a chop player seriously on matters concerning actual war2.

Spoken like a chop noob with his tail between his legs from too many thrashings ;)


Good point about the hosting tho - you know if hight win/loss they have been watching lots of gow...
Grunt Posts: 72 Karma: +7/-0 ***

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Re: Encourage players to play for the challenge. Remove counters all together :P
« Reply #35 on: March 11, 2018, 12:50:45 AM »
@Lambchops LOL yeah pretty much :P

Again I'm not talking about removing every way we have to know a player's level I am proposing to have:
1) A non ranked games place for people to do what ever the fuck they want spectate games, troll and whatever.
2) A Elo ranking that has more meaning because not as easily trickable. (especially if we limit the ranking system to people that have played like at least 100 games or something like that :P

Keeping the total number of games played on the server will tell you already how new the guy is in a more positive manner (see the fact that he watched, lost or won these games does not matter are all positive experiences for a player's global level and should be reflecting that I think).
A ratio that is not taking into account if the game was stacked if you were a watcher and all that does not send the same message.

I don't have a specific "game theory" I am saying the school of thinking that I would relate the most to when in comes to link behaviors to rational choices and partial pieces of information is "game theory".
This is group of models of thinking that studies how the way information is given to players influences the way they behave.

In that particular case having an aggregated information replacing these counters could avoid some bad feelings making that information more about "experience" in a positive way.

That is all I am saying now you are free to disagree and it seems like a lot of you guys do.

So yeah maybe things are perfectly fine the way they are. Now it does not hurt to exchange/share points of views does it? :P

All I am thinking about here is how can we as a community with little changes make this server more attractive for new players, beginners, E-sport, and competitive scene to stop it from dying all together.

I can be wrong yet again we didn't get to have central heating by saying all was fine and comfy in the caverns and saying we shouldn't be talking about changing things.
 :critter:
Sappers Posts: 975 Karma: +62/-0 ******

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Re: Encourage players to play for the challenge. Remove counters all together :P
« Reply #36 on: March 11, 2018, 03:59:58 AM »
After every game i play, I type / stats THEN BEAT MY FUCKING CHEST LIKE A FUCKING APE, AINT NOBODY GOING TO STOP ME oR HOLD ME DOWN

but I gotta admit I love this description...  kudos+cred llol
Axe Thrower Posts: 406 Karma: +24/-1 ****

Igognito

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Re: Encourage players to play for the challenge. Remove counters all together :P
« Reply #37 on: March 12, 2018, 09:14:53 AM »
@Lambchops LOL yeah pretty much :P

Again I'm not talking about removing every way we have to know a player's level I am proposing to have:
1) A non ranked games place for people to do what ever the fuck they want spectate games, troll and whatever.
2) A Elo ranking that has more meaning because not as easily trickable. (especially if we limit the ranking system to people that have played like at least 100 games or something like that :P



@Cel THERE is an Elo ranking system!
http://ladder.war2.ru/
Also you can get these information in game by asking intel!

\m intel XXX
for example: \m intel igognito(z)

or try: \m intel me
etc...

Now whether the Elo system is perfect or not we can discuss about it.

The current Ladder, Elo (2 different systems) both have their imperfections but are certainly more precise than the in build \stats command.

Lets now be honest, the problem that any system is going to have is Smurfs...
You actually, suggested a partial solution for smurfing and that might worth investigating it. (consider entry to ladder/elo only after a minimum # of games)

At an ideal world I would like the following system:
In game 4 buttons called: Join Game, Create Game, Find Ranked Game, Enter Tournament Game

These 4 buttons would be handled differently and would provide much clearer insight on player ranking.

Currently we have the following scheme:
every 1v1 (with or without watchers) on a Classic or BNE map counts for your Ladder rank and modifies your Elo score.
every other game does not count and it is considered a casual game.

I doubt that anyone gives focus on your actual \stats
\stats is mainly used to figure out how many games a player had, and to reveal some smurfs. (When someone is with 10 wins 0 loses 99% is a smurf)

Uncovering of smurfs is the only reason that I would keep \stats as is. Otherwise I would made it the sum of the games played.

While personally, I think we could improve on the current system, I do not think you are looking from the right angle.

What we certainly need is Tournaments, those attract people. And we need tournaments for noobs where they get to be entertained and be awarded!
That would motivate the players to stay!

@~ToRa~, @XuRnT both and more people are trying with organizing tournaments.
I think also organizing a championship would be interesting.

Anyhow, if you think you have a concrete idea to improve the existing Elo or ladder system I can implement the idea.
Grunt Posts: 72 Karma: +7/-0 ***

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Re: Encourage players to play for the challenge. Remove counters all together :P
« Reply #38 on: March 12, 2018, 05:40:48 PM »
So there is a ranked elo system.
Therefore the argument saying you need the built-in counters stats for competition is invalidated as you have more reliable and accurate numbers to look up to :P

 :critter:

Well yeah maybe we could rank even team games if we select them by name using a keyword.
If for example you add "ranked" in the game name like "Gow ranked" it would be very obvious what game counts and what game doesn't.

I noted what Szwagier said about people not wanting to play better players, the problem is it will affect any Elo system if players can consistently choose their opponents.
Having different buttons and queues in game would be the dream solution but seems a bit hard to do as you would have to modify the existing binary.
Therefore we could try to make a "Random queue site" to try to overcome that problem like I was describing in my answer like two posts before.
Making a independent site/app is way more doable. even if we make it available on smartphones. :-)

But this would be an entire different topic :P
Ogre Posts: 1264 Karma: +140/-13 *******

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Re: Encourage players to play for the challenge. Remove counters all together :P
« Reply #39 on: March 12, 2018, 06:08:53 PM »
Nobody would write Ranked in their game name just like nobody would want to go through effort to report loses on Cases. Thats one of the bright things about the current ladder it takes care of it for them and its still there for those who want to use it or easy to ignore if they don't. (Ladder.war2.ru)
Axe Thrower Posts: 406 Karma: +24/-1 ****

Igognito

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Re: Encourage players to play for the challenge. Remove counters all together :P
« Reply #40 on: March 13, 2018, 02:53:33 PM »
I could start thinking of approaches for ranking team games.
Writing a keyword would not be necessary.
But I can see a lot of problems that would arise by ranking team games.

Anyhow, when I implemented the Elo system noone was interested in ranking team games.

What I would like to see would be tournament games to be ranked with higher importance and then it would also mean to rank team games too!
I have ideas on that but I dont have the time right now to elaborate.

Anyhow, have a look at the current ladder and Elo system to get some ideas your self.
If you see something that can be directly improved please tell us :-)