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Poll

Do you want to expand the valid maps pool by including the quality maps Mr. Bean and Zones?

Yes. Mr. Bean and Zones are quality maps the community enjoys and making them official would enrich what W2 can offer
No - and I will offer my explanation below with a reply to the thread
Anyone who plays any map other than GOW should be immediately executed and then permabanned
I like the maps Mr. Bean and Zones but don't think we should change anything

Recognizing and Officializing Excellence as Found in Mr. Bean and Zones Maps 1683  33

Sappers Posts: 868 Karma: +53/-3 ******

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Recognizing and Officializing Excellence as Found in Mr. Bean and Zones Maps
« on: April 05, 2018, 11:50:08 PM »

MR. BEAN

ZONES

@XuRnT  @eyyy im walkin here @mousEtopher @anyone else who would like to help out

I believe the community of Warcraft 2 would like to add two excellent, expertly made maps to the "valid" playing pool of maps that qualify for ladder 1s. These maps have been embraced by a significant portion of the community and have become beloved to many users as well as offering an exciting new battleground for those dipping their toes on them for the first time.

People are requesting these maps more and more and the quality of these productions is evident in both the beautiful visuals as well as the top notch game play seen on these masterpieces that deserve to go down in the W2 Hall of Fame for best maps ever created for the game of Warcraft 2.

If someone who knows could present the method for making these maps official, the community and I would be most appreciative. Swag at one point mentioned he had discovered a way to easily convert these maps but wanted a community vote on them. I am amenable to carrying out a community vote if that is the method that would best accomplish the officializing of these W2 cartographical gems.
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Re: Recognizing and Officializing Excellence as Found in Mr. Bean and Zones Maps
« Reply #1 on: April 06, 2018, 02:32:26 AM »
These maps are like the bastard love child of a 1 night stand. Sure technically a PUD but no real thought or effort put into them, shit choke points, strat variety, strategic Dk spacing, chop points, pathing and feel. Plots pud would be more fun, or Mini Gow... There are better ways to impress Nedro
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Re: Recognizing and Officializing Excellence as Found in Mr. Bean and Zones Maps
« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2018, 03:16:16 AM »
Lol. Don't even know where to start with that one.

Your implication seems to be there's something wrong with one night stands...this coming from you makes me chuckle.

If you either made a map better than one of these, or had even played a handful of games on either one, your reviews would hold more weight. As it is, it seems you are just stuck in a GOW rut in W2 life and stepping out of that comfort zone scares you. Live a little.

I don't remember Plots, but I'll be sure to refresh my memory by trying it out soon.

And your Nedro comment combined with your earlier comment today makes it look like you're jealous of your hilariously perceived "let's-impress-Nedro" vibes. They happen to be great maps on their own merits, which if you were as seasoned at critiquing maps as you are at your one magic pud, you would easily recognize. :)
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Re: Recognizing and Officializing Excellence as Found in Mr. Bean and Zones Maps
« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2018, 05:15:00 AM »
I think I only seen one of these maps hosted once when you weren't online... definitely not embraced by a "significant" amount of people, unless that means like 8 people.

Don't see how adding them to ladder would hurt though, should add Chop and BGH and everything else people play too, etc.
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Re: Recognizing and Officializing Excellence as Found in Mr. Bean and Zones Maps
« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2018, 11:03:34 AM »
I would like to see them in Forest and Winter.
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Re: Recognizing and Officializing Excellence as Found in Mr. Bean and Zones Maps
« Reply #5 on: April 06, 2018, 11:16:50 AM »
.. shit choke points, strat variety, strategic Dk spacing, chop points, pathing and feel...

What, like Garden of War?
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Re: Recognizing and Officializing Excellence as Found in Mr. Bean and Zones Maps
« Reply #6 on: April 07, 2018, 07:22:06 PM »
I would like to see them in Forest and Winter.
Mr. Bean in Forest


Mr. Bean in Winter

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Re: Recognizing and Officializing Excellence as Found in Mr. Bean and Zones Maps
« Reply #7 on: April 07, 2018, 07:28:12 PM »
I would like to see them in Forest and Winter.

Zones in Forest

Zones in Winter
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Re: Recognizing and Officializing Excellence as Found in Mr. Bean and Zones Maps
« Reply #8 on: April 08, 2018, 05:24:04 AM »
they aren't the best maps. but they're not terrible ~ Yamon
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Re: Recognizing and Officializing Excellence as Found in Mr. Bean and Zones Maps
« Reply #9 on: April 09, 2018, 10:24:30 AM »
Well I would vote in favor of adding these and some other maps in the ladder maps.

Especially some 8plp water maps are needed for the ladder maps.

Cherrios
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Re: Recognizing and Officializing Excellence as Found in Mr. Bean and Zones Maps
« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2018, 11:55:32 AM »
I would like to see them in Forest and Winter.
Mr. Bean in Forest


Mr. Bean in Winter


I would like to see them in Forest and Winter.

Zones in Forest

Zones in Winter

Thank you! 

Aesthetics-wise, the Zones design reminds me a lot of Stir Crazy, in that it has a very structured, organized type of look.  The difference is, of course, that each "zone" comes with openings that don't need to be chopped out.  This gives it a playstyle rather reminiscent of Plots, as Paperboy pointed out.  Plots is a little less structured but works in basically the same way.  Plots can be found in the "Expansion" subfolder of the "Classic" maps folder.  I would recommend players just stick with Plots, which is quite a fun map.

Mr. Bean looks like the type of Blizzard-created map that the original Warcraft II came with, not self-conscious about being perfectly balanced and symmetrical, which leads to a lot of the fun in a map like Garden of War.  Now that I have seen it in winter, I have to say, it looks shockingly like Gold Separates East from West, right down to the water in the top left corner.  But Mr. Bean seems to be its own map.  I assume it is bigger than gseps and can accommodate more players; the spaces aren't the same, so building will play out differently; and it has that Continent to Explore-style random exp island.  People familiar with the map after multiple plays probably have all sorts of quirks they've learned about it.  Despite not being particularly innovative, and not having some type of gimmick, it looks like a fun map people could get into.  I see a few places where units could get stuck in the trees, but people have figured out how to navigate around that in GOW, so I figure they could do the same here given repeated play.
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Re: Recognizing and Officializing Excellence as Found in Mr. Bean and Zones Maps
« Reply #11 on: April 10, 2018, 12:09:05 PM »
think of the implications on iron-man.. the point of ladder is there Blizzards maps and any player from the old versions who find war2 can play these maps and know where they stand unedited perserved in greatness

you want to add them, i say thats the worse idea since tvb counted as ladder match
im not puting abusive tone when i say that.. and i will say a new selection should be made

RU-ladder folder
with our greatest maps to be saved forever in all there glory for years later when war2 is no longer played in public lol
New AIE folder should be added for solo players

lets for a second think where this game is going (if it does not update to web browser it will die) 2years 5years 10years its coming and we know it but our RU-Ladder would be saved proof there was still people playing in 2018 :)

so update ladder (Noo)
update new RU-Ladder logo to the best maps and put em in new folder (Yess)
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Re: Recognizing and Officializing Excellence as Found in Mr. Bean and Zones Maps
« Reply #12 on: April 10, 2018, 01:05:23 PM »
But this map Must be balanced, mr bean is not.
I even wrote here how to do it ladder map no1 make single ladder map  ;D
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Re: Recognizing and Officializing Excellence as Found in Mr. Bean and Zones Maps
« Reply #13 on: April 10, 2018, 02:10:08 PM »
But this map Must be balanced, mr bean is not.
I even wrote here how to do it ladder map no1 make single ladder map  ;D

I have to challenge both statements.

"The map must be balanced."

Garden of War is not balanced.

6 and 8 it's impossible to build as close to gold, running to another location puts player behind, s9 as a start spot, you're behind and have only 30 k gold compared with double that at every other start spot.

11 has more gold than other start locations.

Some start locations can be walled off, some can't.

Very unfair and unbalanced...yet people like the map anyway.

A ton of other maps that are currently "legit" for ladder are also seriously unbalanced and unfair.

Some examples of unbalanced currently approved maps besides the lopsided GOW:

A Continent to Explore - middle mine start location has 70 k, other start location golds have 40 k

Crossover - bottom right start you can't build as close to gold mine

Death in the Middle - bottom right you can't build as close to gold mine

Oil is the Key - bottom right island has 20000 and 15000 in 2 gold mines, all other islands have 2 gold mines of 25000

POS classic - R2 spot requires farther hall or walling your peons out of gold mine

Battle_1 - no gold mines, a joke of a map

Plots (blid's recommendation) - some players have significantly more or less building space than others (ie. teal start spot much bigger than red start spot), and not all players have equal access to expand, ie. red start spot is blocked in by blue start spot, so blue has the advantage

WizWar - different start spots have different gold amounts (bot right 107500, bot left 102500, middle island (which has no building room btw and much harder to expand) 100000 each start spot

There are many more, but if "fairness" and "balance" is a necessary criterion, how are these maps valid?

I also challenge your second statement "Mr. Bean is not balanced."

Mr. Bean, each player starts with 55000 in starting gold mine. Every player can equally wall off. Every player has a similar amount of building room and similar access to trees. Every player has equal opportunity to expand. How on earth can you say it's not balanced? I'm not seeing that at all.

And I understand you can do it, ie. that it's possible, but I would only want to make it happen if enough people agree that it's what today's W2ers want, and I think that they do.

I think things that will expand the game, expand the map pool, and hopefully be factors in making a better place to play, thereby expanding the community and being an inviting place with fresh things happening, like new quality maps that people actually play and enjoy are good things.

I'd like to see the W2 community grow, and not just in numbers of players or numbers of maps worth playing again and again, but also in a spirit of welcome and togetherness, being joined in a game we all love.


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Re: Recognizing and Officializing Excellence as Found in Mr. Bean and Zones Maps
« Reply #14 on: April 10, 2018, 02:17:02 PM »
@UK_Restless

This isn't about what folder the maps go in. It doesn't matter to me too much what folder they go in or what the folder is called. Mr. Bean and Zones have been sitting in my cluttered "Downloads" folder for ages.

I think quality maps deserve recognition and official status, regardless of whether they were made by some computer game designer from 20 years ago who might have played W2 briefly or whether they were made by a W2 enthusiast more recently who played for decades and loved the game.

The notion that "old" maps are good and "new" maps are bad is faulty. I think people who have spent 20 years playing this game probably have a better idea of what makes a good map than someone who was given a job to make some maps for money and just smacked together something for a paycheque. There's a reason why a LOT of maps from a long time ago, like the "official" or "included" maps kind of suck.

I mean, take a look in Map Editor at the map SeaWar in Classic Expansion folder. Clearly made by a huge newb. Look especially at the middle and try to explain how what you see there makes any sense.

Change can be scary, but sometimes change is good.

There are also a lot of other good maps that could be considered for adding to a collection of official maps, like Pirate's Lagoon, Ocean Bloom, Party at Midnight, Canals, and XBremer1 has made a bunch of new ones that I've seen once or twice that could be really awesome, but I need to play them more to be sure.