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War2 and Math 683  31

"The Architect" Global Moderator Death Knight Posts: 4900 Karma: +191/-110 *****

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Re: War2 and Math
« Reply #15 on: August 13, 2018, 04:20:39 PM »
yep.  if not interfered with each peon has a rate of gathering resources and specific types of resources, and you could theoretically plot that stuff... all the build times are right there in the map editor too.  But even though the math is still everywhere, there are too many inputs and adjustments a player usually needs to make for things to remain pure or calculable.  But the general ideas are still there.  and most war2 players probably would suck ass at higher math actually, but have nevertheless figured out most of the best efficiencies through trial and error and copying other people.  I mean the 1 rax a few grunts and pop in a catapult is a pretty stable strategy, not too many variables and thats why it's repeatable and why people were able to develop it and tweak the right times to put peons onto wood and so on, and make it into a very effective cookbook
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Re: War2 and Math
« Reply #16 on: August 13, 2018, 07:17:23 PM »
Sepi if by arithmetic sum you mean like converging and diverging series, then yes. Imagine it more like this, the two hall makes you stronger later in the game. This is because the choices that you make early on affect the trajectory of productivity. in effect not changing the rate at which you gather resources so much as changing the rate of change or dx/dt. the slope of the tangent line.. the rate at which expend energy on expansion is a trade off to micro capacity, but it can make you "huge" for this reason and others. the point is that these are the concepts necessary to understand math and physics. I would be surprised if the top players all got there by trial and error, and that a select few mapped out these strategies for them in the past. innovative players intuitively understand these concepts I think.
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Re: War2 and Math
« Reply #17 on: August 13, 2018, 10:33:38 PM »
How would you devise such a representation or system? Djinkhan posted a couple graphs on war2 back in the day. He believed combinatorics graph theory and analyzing probablities could help analyze war2. He did however make a couple Awesome war2 Puzzles that are worth checking out.

Warcraft 2 - dkpuzzle solved - YouTube


 Only seems useful if their was a practical application, like AI or analyzing your replays and show you step by step probabilities as your game play diverges from the optimal move. A combination of deep rationality, fuzzy logic and deduction to find the preferred solution analyzing replay and running simulations would be useful. It’s tricky because a lot of what you do is dependent upon what your opponent does. Effective inferences rely upon making proper reads, scarcity allocation of time, formations and resources and knowing which calculated risks and exposure are acceptable at which stage. Ideally, it would move beyond pattern recognition and create novel abstractions from previously untapped connections & differentiate between strategy and tactics while communicating when and why certain adaptations are necessary. Show us an example of how it would work in the most basic sense! Google's Deep Mind is working on Beating SC2, I think war2 would be far more challenging , would Shotty or Swift represent humanity vs the Rise of the Machines?
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Re: War2 and Math
« Reply #18 on: August 13, 2018, 10:49:29 PM »
Blid became an Architect through warcraft 2, the math is surely there
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Re: War2 and Math
« Reply #19 on: August 14, 2018, 02:21:11 AM »
i have calculated the resources your peons gather all the way up to hitting your ogre-mage upgrade. So I have done all this on a theoretical level. I can share my math (I have lost my excel files but I can re-create them) IF someone teaches me something new regarding math and war2. Someone make a contribution and I will contribute as well. IS IT SO HARD???
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Re: War2 and Math
« Reply #20 on: August 14, 2018, 02:50:40 AM »
anyone here study math/physics/engineering? I realize after getting an engineering degree that Warcraft is full of differential equations, calculus and physics. specifically rates of change and exponential growth. curious if anyone else thinks the same? sorry for nerd talk

Yes. Definately. I have never actually done any sums, but res vs peon production/assignment derivatives are what its all about.

In practice however these tend to come down to make X peons asap - A peons mine, B peons build, C peons chop type formulas which have already been discovered by trial and error.

But I have considered graphing exactly where the optimal pstop / pull / hold / fort points are... I would probably have done this already except I suck so bad at executing even basic strats that its a bit of a moot point for me lol.
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Re: War2 and Math
« Reply #21 on: August 14, 2018, 10:04:06 AM »
Blid became an Architect through warcraft 2, the math is surely there

😂😂
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Re: War2 and Math
« Reply #22 on: August 14, 2018, 01:02:35 PM »
I feel bad someone spent all that type to play/make that map.   Talk about bored.
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Re: War2 and Math
« Reply #23 on: August 14, 2018, 08:09:22 PM »
Lol PB, never knew you were so deep. should have figured with all the crazy builds.. I don't know about direct modelling, so many factors. Instead of graphical you would have to use some kind of matrices and that gets really complicated. However, I have this nagging idea that the current era of heavy micro could be undone by some kind of elementary power strat. By this, I don't mean lust. I mean macro build, low tech. I did an experiment using real time measurement. in roughly 8 minutes you can make 9 lusted ogres. in that same 8 minutes you can make 54 lvl 5 grunts. Not really practical, but interesting. I remember before the excellent catapult micro and wall in expertise combination attacks of grunts/ogres without lust and dual options with low tech. Some variation of these ideas could lead to diversity game play instead of all the cookie cutter crap that is going on now.
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Re: War2 and Math
« Reply #24 on: August 15, 2018, 02:59:13 AM »
Lol PB, never knew you were so deep. should have figured with all the crazy builds.. I don't know about direct modelling, so many factors. Instead of graphical you would have to use some kind of matrices and that gets really complicated. However, I have this nagging idea that the current era of heavy micro could be undone by some kind of elementary power strat. By this, I don't mean lust. I mean macro build, low tech. I did an experiment using real time measurement. in roughly 8 minutes you can make 9 lusted ogres. in that same 8 minutes you can make 54 lvl 5 grunts. Not really practical, but interesting. I remember before the excellent catapult micro and wall in expertise combination attacks of grunts/ogres without lust and dual options with low tech. Some variation of these ideas could lead to diversity game play instead of all the cookie cutter crap that is going on now.

Yeah I like the way you're thinking.

Obviously the problem with this type of big low-tech build would be breaking wall buildings ... i.e surprise lusties can kill a building before the defender even has a chance to start repairing it, but you can't get 54 grunts to attack the same building simultainiously, so you're going to need something else... cats ... saps ... archers?!

How many cats can you build for the price of a hold+alch+1 sap?

One thing I am amazed about - and I think is a mistake - is that most gow players seem to NEVER upgrade their cats. Even when people are spending 900 each on 6 or more cats in a 9/s9 cat battle they still don't seem to think its worth spending 1500 to upgrade them all.

Bear in mind that the upgrade takes the same time as building the first cat, so you get the advantage right from the start of the battle... or if you only upgrade when you see your opponent is catting too then you get it from when your 2nd cat is built.

How is this not worth the cost?
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Re: War2 and Math
« Reply #25 on: August 15, 2018, 04:36:03 AM »
Paperboy top 10 newbs on the server easy
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Re: War2 and Math
« Reply #26 on: August 15, 2018, 12:16:59 PM »
Lol PB, never knew you were so deep. should have figured with all the crazy builds.. I don't know about direct modelling, so many factors. Instead of graphical you would have to use some kind of matrices and that gets really complicated. However, I have this nagging idea that the current era of heavy micro could be undone by some kind of elementary power strat. By this, I don't mean lust. I mean macro build, low tech. I did an experiment using real time measurement. in roughly 8 minutes you can make 9 lusted ogres. in that same 8 minutes you can make 54 lvl 5 grunts. Not really practical, but interesting. I remember before the excellent catapult micro and wall in expertise combination attacks of grunts/ogres without lust and dual options with low tech. Some variation of these ideas could lead to diversity game play instead of all the cookie cutter crap that is going on now.

Yeah I like the way you're thinking.

Obviously the problem with this type of big low-tech build would be breaking wall buildings ... i.e surprise lusties can kill a building before the defender even has a chance to start repairing it, but you can't get 54 grunts to attack the same building simultainiously, so you're going to need something else... cats ... saps ... archers?!

How many cats can you build for the price of a hold+alch+1 sap?

One thing I am amazed about - and I think is a mistake - is that most gow players seem to NEVER upgrade their cats. Even when people are spending 900 each on 6 or more cats in a 9/s9 cat battle they still don't seem to think its worth spending 1000 to upgrade them all.

Bear in mind that the upgrade takes the same time as building the first cat, so you get the advantage right from the start of the battle... or if you only upgrade when you see your opponent is catting too then you get it from when your 2nd cat is built.

Ever watched BHC-Hawk play before? :P
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Re: War2 and Math
« Reply #27 on: August 16, 2018, 07:30:40 PM »
Ever watched BHC-Hawk play before? :P

Recognise the name but I don't think I've ever played/watched him. Only really been paying attention to gow etc. recently.
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Re: War2 and Math
« Reply #28 on: August 16, 2018, 09:17:32 PM »
he was pretty notorious for breaking the standard cookbook 8 grunt/cat/lust with a 3 rax/grunt/cat rush i believe what blid is referring to
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Re: War2 and Math
« Reply #29 on: August 16, 2018, 09:40:00 PM »
Yeah that's one particular, and also in general he had a very strong early game, and went in hard pre-hold/keep a lot of the time.