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mccain's death 1087  89

"The Architect" Global Moderator Death Knight Posts: 4900 Karma: +191/-110 *****

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Re: mccain's death
« Reply #30 on: August 28, 2018, 11:22:45 AM »
In other words Jon and CumSavorer are bigger heroes than John McCain.

Yeah man a couple trolls on the internet are better and more successful than Mcain was.
I'm glad we can come together and agree on this, and recognize a few of our own heroes here who fight the online battle everyday.
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Re: mccain's death
« Reply #31 on: August 28, 2018, 11:29:11 AM »
I put the vast majority of the blame on the policy makers and the ones giving the orders. The military industrial complex, the military institution itself, hell, even the civilians who voted for/supported the politicians--I think they all have much more accountability than the soldiers.
All the people you say we should blame are the ones McCain joined up with and even led post-Vietnam.  It's also the type of family he came from before signing up to fight.  He never met an imperialist conflict he didn't want.  Classic John McCain:

He was a ruling class warmonger through and through, and the world is a safer place without him...



That sounds about right.

Actually I would love to see someone make a case for him being a war criminal based on his activities after Vietnam. I doubt anyone could get the evidence to prove it, but IMO it's more realistic that calling him one because he was a pilot.



i wonder who influences the definition of what a war criminal is. funny how war crimes rarely get attributed to the biggest perpetrator of them.
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Re: mccain's death
« Reply #32 on: August 28, 2018, 11:29:26 AM »
the lionization of mccain post-death reminds me a lot of how people treat the murderous Israeli apartheid state, where cowardice from global onlookers is so seductive and everyone's tempted to say "ohh well both sides i dont know..." because that's kind of an accepted wisdom that we can all come together and agree upon, look at me, I'm being neutral and fair and conveniently and completely by accident I'm not sticking my neck out for anyone and I'm upsetting no one. inconveniently the colonization of Palestine continues unabated but of course I want uh peace! 

Likewise it's tempting to be like "oh I'm a liberal but that mccain, he was a war hero you know... an honorable man," just this sort of desire to please and be pleasant and to not make waves when on examination it's like look, this guy fought in an evil war, did evil things, came back and made it his life's mission to continue awful policies and wage new wars.  If we can actually say that and fight the impulse to quibble over the definition of "war criminal" we're all better off.
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Re: mccain's death
« Reply #33 on: August 28, 2018, 11:32:17 AM »
Yes I am well aware. Nobody was tried at Nuremburg just for being a pilot. Nobody has ever even been charged with war crimes for simply being the guy driving the plane. Read the laws and use some common sense.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/obituaries/oskar-groening-auschwitz-ss-bookkeeper-old-for-jail-holocaust-murder-jewish-poland-a8263491.html%3famp

Just one recent example. And this is just a guard - mccain actually pressed the button to drop fire on children.
It doesn't matter how morally outraged you are at the crimes, ascribing them to to guy driving the plane is just stupid. How about the guy who pushed the button to drop the bombs? How about the soldier who refuelled the plane, is he a war criminal too? How about the receptionist at front desk of the Air-Force base... war criminal?

Yes all of them are culpable, especially if they were not drafted. Sorry it hurts your cracker feelings to hold them responsible for their contributions to genocide.

Try reading. That entire paragraph doesn't even mention McCain, it's on defining a war criminal.

So stay on topic you fucking imbecile. If the defense doesn't apply to McCain why make it? I guess you're conceding there is no moral justification for willfully participating in a genocidal war?

He was rich? So what? So was Elvis. He chose to join the air force? Again, so what? Even if you join the armed forces voluntarily you will still get court-martialed and thrown in a military prison if you refuse to follow orders. It's not a voluntary system.

The point is he had every opportunity to not participate in a genocidal organization and he did.  Not an innocent draftee as you jmply.

Lots of brave people refused to follow those orders and faced the consequences. Those are the heroes, not cowards like McCain who murder from thirty thousand feet and go on to cynically market themselves as a human rights champion.

Again. Try reading. I didn't ask if you would condemn them, and I didn't ask why you were talking about McCain (you idiot ;)).

Yea I'm stupid for thinking you were talking about mccain when responding to my post about mccain, you've outsmarted me by talking about something else entirely. Moron

Not at all. If you have some quote from McCain where's he's saying how enthusiastic he is about killing civillians that's very relevent, post that meme.

"I hate the g**ks, I will hate them as long as I live"

Definitely not a sentiment of a genocidal racist but a brave maverick
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Re: mccain's death
« Reply #34 on: August 28, 2018, 11:35:01 AM »
In other words Jon and CumSavorer are bigger heroes than John McCain.

Yeah man a couple trolls on the internet are better and more successful than Mcain was.
I'm glad we can come together and agree on this, and recognize a few of our own heroes here who fight the online battle everyday.

@eyyy im walkin here u live in the DC area? I have an aunt in Georgetown, u be willing to meet me at some point? Im curious to see what u like in real life.
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Re: mccain's death
« Reply #35 on: August 28, 2018, 11:39:46 AM »
the lionization of mccain post-death reminds me a lot of how people treat the murderous Israeli apartheid state, where cowardice from global onlookers is so seductive and everyone's tempted to say "ohh well both sides i dont know..." because that's kind of an accepted wisdom that we can all come together and agree upon, look at me, I'm being neutral and fair and conveniently and completely by accident I'm not sticking my neck out for anyone and I'm upsetting no one. inconveniently the colonization of Palestine continues unabated but of course I want uh peace! 

Likewise it's tempting to be like "oh I'm a liberal but that mccain, he was a war hero you know... an honorable man," just this sort of desire to please and be pleasant and to not make waves when on examination it's like look, this guy fought in an evil war, did evil things, came back and made it his life's mission to continue awful policies and wage new wars.  If we can actually say that and fight the impulse to quibble over the definition of "war criminal" we're all better off.


typical liberals tbh.
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Re: mccain's death
« Reply #36 on: August 28, 2018, 11:43:48 AM »
usa illegally justified a war using the gulf of tonkin incident (false flag) and followed it with operation rolling thunder ( a serious bombing campaign that led to over 100k civilian deaths which mccain participated in). if this isn't a war crime there's no such thing as one.
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Re: mccain's death
« Reply #37 on: August 28, 2018, 11:48:07 AM »
In other words Jon and CumSavorer are bigger heroes than John McCain.

Yeah man a couple trolls on the internet are better and more successful than Mcain was.

Correct
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Re: mccain's death
« Reply #38 on: August 28, 2018, 11:49:32 AM »
In other words Jon and CumSavorer are bigger heroes than John McCain.

Yeah man a couple trolls on the internet are better and more successful than Mcain was.
I'm glad we can come together and agree on this, and recognize a few of our own heroes here who fight the online battle everyday.

@eyyy im walkin here u live in the DC area? I have an aunt in Georgetown, u be willing to meet me at some point? Im curious to see what u like in real life.

Sad what closeted men are reduced to since craigslist got rid of casual encounters section
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Re: mccain's death
« Reply #39 on: August 28, 2018, 11:50:39 AM »
the lionization of mccain post-death reminds me a lot of how people treat the murderous Israeli apartheid state, where cowardice from global onlookers is so seductive and everyone's tempted to say "ohh well both sides i dont know..." because that's kind of an accepted wisdom that we can all come together and agree upon, look at me, I'm being neutral and fair and conveniently and completely by accident I'm not sticking my neck out for anyone and I'm upsetting no one. inconveniently the colonization of Palestine continues unabated but of course I want uh peace! 

Likewise it's tempting to be like "oh I'm a liberal but that mccain, he was a war hero you know... an honorable man," just this sort of desire to please and be pleasant and to not make waves when on examination it's like look, this guy fought in an evil war, did evil things, came back and made it his life's mission to continue awful policies and wage new wars.  If we can actually say that and fight the impulse to quibble over the definition of "war criminal" we're all better off.


typical liberals tbh.

Shocking that when their backs against the wall good libs always stan hard for white supremacist empire
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Re: mccain's death
« Reply #40 on: August 28, 2018, 12:08:21 PM »
With people like Trump rising in reaction to liberalism's failures we need to speak truth more than ever. We've got to challenge and reject corporate media narratives that are false, recognize imperialism and racism and the failures of the market, and be brave enough not to just look down at our feet and say "err cant we all just come together maybe i dont know..." because Trump and his ilk are not interested in playing nice, and the Republican party as an institution isn't interested in doing so either.  They proved that beyond a doubt during Obama's term, refusing to even have hearings for Scalia's SCOTUS replacement for a full year.  When you're too polite, or naive, or just too well-intentioned to treat them as the enemy, they'll take advantage of you to self-servingly further enrich the scumbags they rub elbows with and to further disenfranchise people of color and it'll be the majority of humanity that pays the price for their luxury.
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Re: mccain's death
« Reply #41 on: August 28, 2018, 12:08:44 PM »

i wonder who influences the definition of what a war criminal is. funny how war crimes rarely get attributed to the biggest perpetrator of them.



The biggest perpetrator is not the guy driving the plane.




Likewise it's tempting to be like "oh I'm a liberal but that mccain, he was a war hero you know... an honorable man," just this sort of desire to please and be pleasant and to not make waves when on examination it's like look, this guy fought in an evil war, did evil things, came back and made it his life's mission to continue awful policies and wage new wars.  If we can actually say that and fight the impulse to quibble over the definition of "war criminal" we're all better off.


Did I come accross as trying to be "pleasant" or in any way sympathetic or apologetic for John McCain? Oh God no...


My opinion is that he was a grotty little nazi asshole who probably closed his eyes and thought about bombing people while he was ploughing his wife.

But that's just my opinion.

That does not mean that wartime pilots should be called war criminals because bombs were dropped out of their plane. How many came home and committed suicide? How many ex-soldiers right now still have nightmares and wish they never went to war? How are their children coping wiith daddy(or mommy) waking up screaming? These people also read stuff on forums. I won't call them all war-criminals, and I don't mind sticking up for them - even if it's unpopular and it would be easier to just let it slide.



If you can't rip on a self-promoting power-hungry arrogant biggoted white supremacist without calling an entire group of mostly un-related people war criminals then you're just not doing it right.



                           :critter:
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Re: mccain's death
« Reply #42 on: August 28, 2018, 12:38:41 PM »
With people like Trump rising in reaction to liberalism's failures we need to speak truth more than ever.


Exactly. The truth.

... and if you want to change hearts and minds, start by not alienating the entire armed forces. You may think you're just talking about one person, but but people will apply things to their own life and experience. Don't you want soldiers to vote with you?





If you can't rip on a self-promoting power-hungry arrogant biggoted white supremacist without calling an entire group of mostly un-related people war criminals then you're just not doing it right.


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Re: mccain's death
« Reply #43 on: August 28, 2018, 12:59:59 PM »
With people like Trump rising in reaction to liberalism's failures we need to speak truth more than ever.


Exactly. The truth.

... and if you want to change hearts and minds, start by not alienating the entire armed forces. You may think you're just talking about one person, but but people will apply things to their own life and experience. Don't you want soldiers to vote with you?
Not really.  They're on the wrong side right now.  They're all volunteer and anyone that signed up post-Vietnam should have known what they were getting into.  If some of them have an epiphany and actually realize they're on the wrong side, I think they'll be understanding to angry people calling McCain a war criminal.  I mean, Trump won a national presidential election after saying John McCain wasn't a hero and he "prefers the pilots that don't get shot down."  Mincing words out of caution isn't really all that necessary, not as necessary as appealing to people that our current politics don't reach at all. 

You see Democrats constantly crying and whining about the 10,000 people that voted Green Party, and a mass political project hopefully would reach those Green Party voters, but even more, it would hopefully reach many of those who don't currently vote, a number that dwarfs the paltry third party votes. 





That's who I want to vote with me, more than troops defensive about their role as malevolent imperialist muscle.
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Re: mccain's death
« Reply #44 on: August 28, 2018, 01:24:02 PM »
That does not mean that wartime pilots should be called war criminals because bombs were dropped out of their plane. How many came home and committed suicide
when it's an unjustified invasion of a foreign country and those bombs are dropped on ligh bulb factories where women are working, yea that's a crime against humanity.