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Poll

Changes you would like to see tried (hypothetically):

Yes to Lust mana cost increase
5 (14.3%)
Yes to Heal mana cost decrease
5 (14.3%)
Yes to Troll regen increase
3 (8.6%)
Yes to Skeletons cost decrease
3 (8.6%)
Yes to Unholy armor cost decrease
3 (8.6%)
Yes to Firebolt cost decrease
4 (11.4%)
Yes to Flameshield cost decrease
3 (8.6%)
Yes to Polymorph slight cost decrease
4 (11.4%)
I voted
5 (14.3%)

Total Members Voted 8

Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance! 1094  66

Grunt Posts: 94 Karma: +7/-0 ***

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Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance!
« on: November 01, 2018, 03:07:02 PM »
We all know the game has some areas where balance is not perfect and some people have offered to make changes to balances things up in the past.
Here is a way I would look at it:

The real thing to keep in mind when looking at this issue is that most of us do play the game mostly out of nostalgia.
So if changes are to be made they have to be so minor that they wont change the way we play the game and the way the game feels/behaves overall we do not want to play another game we want to play warcraft 2 with all its mechanics and logic.

Ideally any change made would only make the game feel a bit better and make it more interesting to play without changing anything to its core mechanics and the way we play it.
In such a way that players coming back to the game wont really be noticing them too much, we are basically talking small tweaks in numbers nothing more.

Here are changes I would suggest if we were to make any update to the game's balance:

Lust:
Lust has to be powerful it has to allow players to tare appart builings and all that jazz the only problem I see with lust is that it is so cheap players do not have to think about when to use it.
Players can afford always re-lusting everything without thinking twice.
I would thus propose to change the cost of lust from 50 to something around 100 mana making it a little more strategical to think about when to use the spell without reducing its effectiveness when it is.

Heal:
Heal costs 6 mana per hit points healed a paladin has 90 hit points it means a full mana paladin cannot heal another paladin up as it will only heal 40 hp (edited).
the cost makes it not worth it to even use the heal in combat or even else.
I would reduce it making it twice as cheap like 2 or even 1 so that it will most of the time heal up the unit you are using the spell on.

Berzerker troll regeneration:
the thing is so slow the troll will die of old age before it get healed 9 hp. Archers on the other hand get a nice flat +3 damage I would up trolls regen a bit like twice what it is.

Firebolt:
Coil is amazing firebolt not so much I would maybe lower its cost a bunch to make it more interesting to use it to for example taking down towers and other small objectives quickly without spending a full  blizzard.

Skeletons:
They suck and they are expenssive I would lower their cost a bunch and make them use upgrades or make them a bit tougher but they still have to loose to a grunt 1v1 they are the units you want to make when resources are about to be mia on the map

Unholy armor:
A very powerfull spell to make dk bombs and other fancy moves but it is very expensive overall still and could be a bit cheaper from 200 to something around 150 100.

Flames shield:
A fun spell when used wisely I would however lower the cost of flames shield from 80 to something around 50 to make it more possible/worth doing invisibility/flameshield combos

Polymorph:
A very powerful spell against other casters but it does cost a lot I would lower it from 200 to around 150.

These are suggestions that I feel would not change the game's logic and the way people play it but will encourage more interesting plays and thinking behind player actions.
Feel free to add your own thoughts on this and suggestions.

Tweaking numbers there and there as long as they do not de-nature the game is I guess acceptable in my opinion what do you feel about this matter?

Disclaimer: I am overall happy with the current state of the game and I am not saying we need to change anything. I am just saying that before changing anything we better make sure we have proper discussions about all of it so that we know what people are cool with and what not :P
Also it is a fun exercise to think of what small tweaks can change in the way the game is played even if it is to do nothing in the end.

 :peon:
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Re: Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance!
« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2018, 03:45:07 PM »
THIS SETTINGS WILL MAKE THE GAMES LAST LONGER..IT WILL ALSO BRING THE GAME AT HIS FULL POTENTIAL, COULD BE ONE OF THE BEST IDEA EVER FOR WAR2
CURENTLY CANT LOG ON WAR2 YET BUSY WITH WORK SO ISNT REALLY MY RIGHT TO JUDGE YOUR IDEA BUT DO AS YOU PLEASE,PZ :) :D :P
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Re: Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance!
« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2018, 04:12:29 PM »
youll need some reverser's..szwag seems to be one and ull need to understand some of that lamb stuff asmasmasm to understand the hex.

i wouldnt mess with the original...just more of a better custom.
Grunt Posts: 94 Karma: +7/-0 ***

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Re: Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance!
« Reply #3 on: November 01, 2018, 05:13:35 PM »
There is no doubt we know how to change these things the matter is more about whether we think these kind of changes are worth it and could be good for the game overall at all.
(for the game to be even more entertaining to watch and play)

Blizzard is not going to patch the game anymore.
Usually what Blizzard and other companies do to games they keep updating are having a balance team watching the game's competitive scene and overall performances and see what are the smallest amount of changes they can make to the original game that would improve its performances.

They do keep updating Starcraft from time to time with changes relative to balance and number tweaks nothing too crazy but basically all games that are kept alive receive some love from time to time and small tweaks to help the game reach its full potential.

Combat edition already vows to update the game so that it will keep running on our lastest os and machines.
It could also try and keep working on the game balance through small multiplayer updates. I'm not saying it should but it could.

The goal would be in that case to keep updating/balancing the game with the smallest possible changes that would be barely noticable from the original game to try and balance it a little more and have an overall improved experience without changing the game's logic/mechanic and feel.

To be honest I am fine with no changes happening at all but I think it is always fun to imagine what any of these small changes could do to the overall game.

 :peon:
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Re: Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance!
« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2018, 06:01:27 PM »
There is no time in game do play with trolls or flamestrike, if u got time to do that, that mean u won this game
They didnt change sc:bw, last time when they change game play was spawing pool 150->200 mins

IT was 10? Years ago
Grunt Posts: 94 Karma: +7/-0 ***

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Re: Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance!
« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2018, 06:49:53 PM »
They did change it for the remaster version of the game they changed the ladder map pool added some ramps to map editor as late as july the 24th.
But yeah you are right I could have picked a better example starcraft was updated for so long its balance is pretty much close to perfection now and every single unit and spells or upgrade from the roaster is played.

It is true that archers and trolls upgrades are barely played in warcraft 2 which is good in a sense we could tweak upgrades cost/effectiveness though I was thinking more about balancing the two races than balancing the tech tree overall.
On that part the game feels pretty good as it is already.
We could discuss how to balance the tech tree more, for example making sure that every single unit and tech has a real place in the game not necessarily in every game but has a good situational use. But this is going even further, we already have a pretty good tech tree as it is, changes to it would have to be extremely minor if any.

What do you mean by flamestrike? Firebolt or Flameshield?
Flameshield is barely used but if it cost 50 instead of 80 you could invis an oil tanker and give it flameshield with just one mage.
Also using it on packs of units could be worth it as it would cost 2 blizzard cast and not 3+ worth of mana.

These are overall propositions to help balancing the game by changing simple and small things without changing the way the game works just buffing/nerfing things simply to see how it comes out. Overall it should barely change anything for good players just giving more options and opportunities.

Though as I said I do not really care if we end up changing things or not unless it is something we did not discuss.
I am happy with the current state of the game and am just curious about what you guys come up with and think of these possible small tweaks and what they could allow/change.

Anyone can have an opinion on this, it is just a nice hypothetical talk :-)

 :peon:
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Re: Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance!
« Reply #6 on: November 02, 2018, 01:48:09 AM »
Adding map but it doesnt change gameplay

And how it can work, there Must be patch, Before players join server
Grunt Posts: 116 Karma: +3/-0 ***

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Re: Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance!
« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2018, 11:05:53 AM »
these threads stress me a lot. i really hope war2 doesnt get changed. (I did not read anything in the thread)
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Re: Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance!
« Reply #8 on: November 03, 2018, 10:43:09 AM »
Hi, le Baguette :)

Quote
Lust:
Lust has to be powerful it has to allow players to tare appart builings and all that jazz the only problem I see with lust is that it is so cheap players do not have to think about when to use it.
Players can afford always re-lusting everything without thinking twice.
I would thus propose to change the cost of lust from 50 to at least 100 mana making it a little more strategical to think about when to use the spell without reducing its effectiveness when it is.
Agreed something around 85 to not screw up orc vs orc game, keep some variability.
if 100 or more then orc wars will stuck at boring "timing attacks"

Quote
Heal:
Heal costs 4 mana per hit points healed a paladin has 90 hit points it means a full mana paladin cannot heal another paladin up as it will only heal 62 hp.
the cost makes it not worth it to even use the heal in combat or even else.
I would reduce it making it twice as cheap like 2 or even 1 so that it will most of the time heal up the unit you are using the spell on.
4 per HP ? good healing then ;) btw 4 mana per HP is Exorcism cost
Heal costs 6 mana per HP and maxed out using 240 mana at once = 40 HP
even if paladin had extra mana (over 240) u must click again to spend it. (Exorcism doesn't have that limitations, using all possible mana)
But idk how will Heal behave (do same 40 HP or dry same 240 mana) if cost = 2/HP...

Quote
Firebolt:
Coil is amazing, firebolt not so much. I would maybe lower its cost a bunch to make it more interesting to use it
Huh, Fireball?  Isn't it?
Suggest 85 then, triple with full mana. and ready to use right from birth. A bit more fair against Coil - easy to miss, mostly not killing from 1 cast...

Quote
Unholy armor:
A very powerfull spell to make dk bombs and other fancy moves but it is very expensive overall still and could be a bit cheaper from 200 to something around 150 100.
Really? This costs 100 mana in original and good as it is. But here already 2 votes to decrease, hehe.

Quote
Polymorph:
A very powerful spell against other casters but it does cost a lot I would lower it from 200 to around 150.
–ěh no pls, enough "click-click" stuffs in war2 already.

Quote
Flame shield:
A fun spell when used wisely I would however lower the cost of flames shield from 80 to something around 50
Some cases dropping that on enemy ogres crowd may worth it, but mostly blizz more easy and effective for 25 mana minimal.
But anyway 50 looks too good.
Much better to set minimal research cost for this, for exaple 500gold + same time cost as slow/haste (then do same for orcs 'raise dead'),
when that so easily accessible, player may consider use it rather or think for yourself what is better for current in game situation.

Grunt Posts: 94 Karma: +7/-0 ***

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Re: Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance!
« Reply #9 on: November 03, 2018, 04:20:27 PM »
Yup Available I mixed exhorcism and heal up for their costs but you got the idea heal is not even worth it out of fight.
Good point though we would really want to have it drain all the available mana. And yeah exhorcism could use a slight buff too as it is very situational.

Lust mana cost really makes it easy for players to just not think about when to do it but yeah maybe we could try a more subtle change first ^^.


Though these are all hypothetical changes :P
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Re: Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance!
« Reply #10 on: November 04, 2018, 04:07:45 PM »
Best way to balance game would be to give knights a consistent speed upgrade instead of healing. Make bloodlust some sec lower in duration and lower invis duration. Invis would be op if lust is nerfed. This way knights can run away from lusted ogres, and game will be much more even.
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Re: Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance!
« Reply #11 on: November 04, 2018, 06:45:00 PM »
I have only one big issue with the solution you are proposing eleison it is that it changes the game mechanics and units/spells logic wise.
I kinda don't want people to think they are watching a different game when they see the game on our streams.

I believe we can try balancing what we have instead of changing the spirit / logic of the game altogether. Paladins loosing heal and having a haste instead would definitely not look/feel like warcraft 2 anymore for me and all the nostalgia driven players out there.

Lets talk about what we see is the real issue here before we jump into solutions here is how I see the picture:

The way I see it the real problem for the in game balance as it is right now is Lust being a total no-brainer.

Lust is so powerful and cheap that most players do not think about whether they should get it or not anymore, they will rush for it, even if sometimes they would have been able to win faster by just by massing grunts and making one or two sappers.
Think about it, have you tried to play a game that goes into late game where every player are forbidden to use lust? Was it horribly bad? Or did you have suddenly more options in your tech tree, more things to think of and micro manage? Was it not fun at all?
I believe because it is so cheap lust overshadows everything else the tech tree has to offer which could also be used and played with and it makes the game more straight forward than it could be.

At the same time I do not want to make lust weaker either.
Because it wouldn't be warcraft 2 anymore if you could not break a defense with a nicely timed lusted ogers attack or if Axe throwers lusted didn't rip appart drakes, or lusted dragons able to kill dks etc...

I believe if lust did cost more mana we would have the same game we all love, it would just make playing orcs require a bit more planning and thinking than just getting lust as soon as possible and constantly re-lusting a wrecking ball patch of ogers there and there.

Making lust cost more mana could make it an amazing situational skill instead of a constant no-brainer and would open the path for more of the tech tree to be used in regular games like runes, sappers and other super nice things we only get to see when one or two very good player manages to sneak these strategies in on a perfect timing.

Don't get me wrong though lust is a great spell, Warcraft 2 without lust at all would be unthinkable, it adds something to the game and really is kinda iconic but strong as it is right now it also strips a large part of the game away too.

Yes orc players would have to take into account that their army is not always 100% ready to fight just like their enemies, if you think about it humans have already to deal with this to time their attacks to try and avoid lust or catch unlusted ogies or lure them away from the action if anything, this is more thrilling and requires more thinking/planning which is the way I see it very good for the game.

Now about invisibility and mages/dks overall:
Though I am not excluding it could be something to think about I personally believe Invisibility is fine as it is, especially counting that DKs have haste for drakes and also coil that heals them and unholy armor all of these are very good spells too.
Invisibility is definitely a good late game skill but it is not like dks don't have their own arsenal I am pretty sure a lot of players still rather play a dk than a mage I believe the two are pretty balanced as it is.

As a matter of fact  in the list I gave the only real changes I would like to try myself are: lust mana cost increase and heal mana cost decrease and boundary removed to be honest I think that would be a good start ^^.
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Re: Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance!
« Reply #12 on: November 05, 2018, 05:52:42 AM »
Do you still need mana cost address?

This is for US version (starting from 004A1C3C). Please see the image in attachment.
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Re: Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance!
« Reply #13 on: November 05, 2018, 02:38:19 PM »
The only thing that needs to be changed is lust-mana regeneration, it should definitely be slower. 
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Re: Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance!
« Reply #14 on: November 06, 2018, 04:51:27 AM »
With the exception of lust, humans are way OP already.

Humans are >= orcs in almost everything else. It's just that lust is so massively OP that it cancels out all the rest.

Cases can be made for all sorts of tweaks, I would just like to see an increase in lust MP cost (maybe double?), and a BIG decrease in invis duration.

The nature of invis can totally affect the way some maps are played, and 99% of the time it's just a dirty trick sneak rape attack spell. Invis should be absolute maximum 10 seconds, probably better about 6-8 seconds.