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Poll

Changes you would like to see tried (hypothetically):

Yes to Lust mana cost increase
5 (14.3%)
Yes to Heal mana cost decrease
5 (14.3%)
Yes to Troll regen increase
3 (8.6%)
Yes to Skeletons cost decrease
3 (8.6%)
Yes to Unholy armor cost decrease
3 (8.6%)
Yes to Firebolt cost decrease
4 (11.4%)
Yes to Flameshield cost decrease
3 (8.6%)
Yes to Polymorph slight cost decrease
4 (11.4%)
I voted
5 (14.3%)

Total Members Voted 8

Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance! 1483  66

Ogre Mage Posts: 1525 Karma: +58/-36 ********

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Re: Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance!
« Reply #30 on: November 11, 2018, 05:43:59 AM »
Costly in MP not gold, as is the context of this entire thread DUH

Still don't see how runes is costly to a guy who never never lusts his ogres and has full mana on most of his ogres? As I said, you're easily flame shield only levels of bad
Grunt Posts: 121 Karma: +4/-0 ***

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Re: Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance!
« Reply #31 on: November 11, 2018, 06:22:04 AM »
D&d being better for destroying farms / oil platforms it gives good opportunities to cripple the enemy player.


this is a myth which has been empirically proven to not be true by Nedro. Death and Decay and blizzard both do the same damage to every type of building (2x2, 3x3 and 4x4 buildings). This is a myth put forward by the old occult site war2.warcraft.org/strategy (no longer accessible).

If you look at the battle.net site of warcraft 2 strategy, where they discuss blizzard and death and decay, there are no such myths being put forward. The myth being that D&D does more damage to 2x2 and 4x4 buildings and blizzard does more damage to 3x3 buildings. It is not true at all.

http://classic.battle.net/war2/advanced/bdnd.shtml

It is true there is no stopping an invisible transport but you cant really stop a hasted transport either yes you can see it coming and prepare for it but if there is a hasted dk in it the potential damages are much higher.


Haste does not affect a transport. If u haste a transport and u have another transport next to it without haste, they both go the same speed (I just empirically tested this in single player).
Grunt Posts: 101 Karma: +10/-0 ***

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Re: Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance!
« Reply #32 on: November 11, 2018, 08:36:06 AM »
For blizzard a d&d it just seems that when farms are isolated d&d does seem to get them more accurately empirically the difference is super small so it is for units that is what I mean by there is no need to balance blizzard and d&d they are fine.
Now it could be completely wrong and it does not really matter as my point is we don't need to balance what already is fairly balanced.

Transports are max speed there is no stopping them anyways point being you can load a hasted dk in a transport move it to the enemy island and cast d&d as soon as it goes out it cant be stopped. Haste > slow because buffing a unit before a fight is just easier than when its an enemy moving or running at your face. Also haste can be used in multiple ways for speeding up economy (on peons/oil tankers) or allow sappers to run into towers while not getting shot twice etc...

Coil may one shot a mage and most of the time it will leave him very very low life while healing your dk, you need 3 to 4 direct hits with fireballs to kill an enemy mage or dk not even talking about the fact that they are pretty easy to dodge running sideways and it does not heal your mage a bit, there is a reason one spell is used and the other is not. Players are not stupid if fireball was any good it would be used just like skeletons if they did do damage they would be used.

Ideally balance changes would make every units and spell of the tech trees interesting to get and use depending on the situation it is not just about balancing humans vs orcs.

Lust is too strong because it makes trying to do anything else than getting it not worth.
It becomes a no-brainer to get it where it could be a strategical choice to get it over say dks or getting sappers or else earlier in the game. Altar of storm is the number 1 building people go for after reaching fort now if you look at heal/exorcism it is so bad that Chuch is barely ever even built it is not worth spending money on we are talking a building that is even less worth to get than the refinery here.

Lust gives such a power spike that often people will repair the altar with 3 4 peons just to get it like 1 min before the opponent because if you get it that little bit sooner you may win it is such a game changer / breaker.

Plus you don't have to plan when to use it you just re-lust all the time because it is that cheap, this is where balance could really help having more options, allowing counter plays and more of the tech tree to be explored and used effectively in games.

It is not like the game is poor and lacks options or depth when lust is disabled, the game is pretty amazing and balanced otherwise lust just overshadows a lot of its potential.

I have seen games were Braviet played with runes and zeppelins against lust. Man did he won the fights but it is so expensive to keep up in terms of micro management that he got out macro easily. Because the enemy would just mass produce lust and send without looking while Braviet had to always pay attention and plan where and when to put runes out on the map to cripple the lusted enemy army before it arrives if lust was that tiny little more expensive Braviet would have won this game. And I feel he would have deserved it because that strategy could be very worth. It requires far more thinking/planning and execution skills than just rushing lust and sending ogies accross the map.

It if fun to watch and commentate different strategies I would love for these kind of things to happen more often.
Again not saying lust needs to be removed just saying I love lust but I would also love it to be a strategical choice more than a no-brainer.
 ;)
Grunt Posts: 121 Karma: +4/-0 ***

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Re: Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance!
« Reply #33 on: November 11, 2018, 09:55:08 AM »
For blizzard a d&d it just seems that when farms are isolated d&d does seem to get them more accurately empirically the difference is super small so it is for units that is what I mean by there is no need to balance blizzard and d&d they are fine.

retarded.
Grunt Posts: 101 Karma: +10/-0 ***

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Re: Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance!
« Reply #34 on: November 11, 2018, 12:12:30 PM »
Grunt Posts: 121 Karma: +4/-0 ***

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Re: Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance!
« Reply #35 on: November 11, 2018, 01:50:54 PM »
retarded.


CRITICAL THINKING - Fallacies: Ad Hominem [HD] - YouTube

:thumbsup:


ure building ur argument on a swamp of retardness. i suppose ure going to triple down on being retarded after this.
Grunt Posts: 101 Karma: +10/-0 ***

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Re: Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance!
« Reply #36 on: November 11, 2018, 03:06:32 PM »
I could be wrong my argumentation could have flaws and / or  maybe you could have missed my point. I will go for the later in that case.

Before you make yourself look like a fool make sure you understand what you are reacting to before actually reacting to it.

Here is the point I think you missed:

I already said that whether the blizzard / d&d thing was a myth or not both ways support my point. My point being blizzard is not better than d&d as I was answering someone saying blizzard was better than d&d.
Well according to that source it is not more than according to you, as you said literally these are exactly the same spells, so my point still stands tyvm.

Which seems to be what you wanted to say that both blizzard and d&d are perfectly balanced so you are basically insulting me for defending exactly the same idea as you.
 :thumbsup:

In any case,
You attacking my person is not really going anywhere and as such you are welcome to shut your mouth or find something to say that actually may be more interesting to read than series of pointless insults, because I will ignore these plain and simple.

There is nothing stupid about stating facts or opinions even when they are wrong or flawed every civilized person can be wrong on any matter once in a while.

Monkeys yell at each other and punch each others when they disagree, I do not hate monkeys I just don't waste my time arguing or talking with them though.
 :peon:
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Re: Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance!
« Reply #37 on: November 11, 2018, 04:20:34 PM »
*yawn* next ure going to quadruple down on being retarded. you have doubled down 10 times in the past so lets see how deep in infinite regression we go this time.
Death Knight Posts: 3022 Karma: +71/-2 retired, be in music section *********

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Re: Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance!
« Reply #38 on: November 11, 2018, 08:12:49 PM »
gd dudes get to hacking war2! i wanna see some productivity
Ogre Posts: 1024 Karma: +66/-0 *******

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Re: Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance!
« Reply #39 on: November 11, 2018, 09:00:44 PM »
I did a few tests, just out of interest. Didn't run it enough times to be statistical proof, but the appearance I saw was something like:

Both blizz and d&d do repeating amounts of random damage over an area. Blizz does more damage per 'hit' but d&d hits more times.

In this way the damage from d&d will tend to be more regular ... it will be spread out the damage more evenly over the area, so seems to have a slightly higher rate of completely destroying smaller/low-HP targets, but in every test I did, Blizz dealt more total damage to the area.

The difference was less than what I thought it was before doing this test. The 2 spells seem slightly different, but pretty well balanced.


-- edit --

This was only done on buildings....  BTW the myth/rumor I heard years ago was that blizz does more damage to buildings but d&d does more damage to mobile units, but idk how true that is.



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Re: Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance!
« Reply #40 on: November 11, 2018, 09:57:29 PM »
Both blizz and d&d do repeating amounts of random damage over an area. Blizz does more damage per 'hit' but d&d hits more times.

This is not true. blizzard does 11 waves of iceshards, and death n decay does 11 waves of roses or whatever those are called.
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Re: Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance!
« Reply #41 on: November 11, 2018, 09:59:37 PM »
BTW the myth/rumor I heard years ago was that blizz does more damage to buildings but d&d does more damage to mobile units, but idk how true that is.

blizzard and death and decay do same damage to buildings. blizzard does more damage to units.
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Re: Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance!
« Reply #42 on: November 11, 2018, 11:45:28 PM »
mm im seeing  d&d does more dmg to units than buildings.

it depends on the angle u use the spell also
Grunt Posts: 101 Karma: +10/-0 ***

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Re: Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance!
« Reply #43 on: November 12, 2018, 12:28:46 AM »
Lets cut all that bullshit. Why don't we all try for ourselves?

I just made a simple map for testing that easily for yourself and also for myself because clearly people have theories on sensible differences between d&d and blizzard on units/buildings.

I ran this map (attached file) multiple times and tried for myself all I can say is on all my runs I haven't seen much difference at all if there is one maybe d&d did kill on average more farms than blizzard sometimes both spells will leave all farms alive on my runs most of the time d&d killed 1 or 2 farms but its probably just random.

I always stopped the cast after the same number of casts for both spells 5 for buildings 2 for units and I always casted the spell on the same tile relatively from the same relative position.

Now you say it is better for units? How much more damage are we talking about exactly because on my end it does not look very different.

Try it for yourself and if you do not trust my map make your own tests maybe I should record this on video pick the life of every unit and buildings to count exactly how much damage was done?

Launch it with default settings you will get both mages and dks and will be able to try both spells subsequently the way you want to, if there is such a big difference that really made blizzard better against units or whatever it should be very visible shouldn't it?

Otherwise we are talking very very minor differences that are not worth mentioning in the first place don't we?
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Re: Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance!
« Reply #44 on: November 12, 2018, 12:59:59 AM »
well d&d is the better center cast spell , blizz looks like it needs to be top'd left some

im sure theres some kind a square 9x9 pattern and blizz almost always looks like it will middle down right before spreading ..were as d&d is spreading at the start

well why ya know better results this time around!

but i would still rather have teh d&d spread in a real war2 game..all those orcs are red and dead 1 more hit.

2 cast  stop and 2 cast again  ...what people could be seeing is a mage is to not click on a building but to cast top left of it...maybe

mage clearly wins on its cast in this pic :o of barraks, its just how your lined up and a building cast is gonna make it cast top lefted... so screwing the dk it looks like.

the mage pattern is more to the middle down right i see it now...is it a big thing no..a base hit id go with 2+ of each unit anyhow  :P

--and final conclusion = mage for barracks  / dks for farms most of the time and dks for units