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Poll

Changes you would like to see tried (hypothetically):

Yes to Lust mana cost increase
5 (14.3%)
Yes to Heal mana cost decrease
5 (14.3%)
Yes to Troll regen increase
3 (8.6%)
Yes to Skeletons cost decrease
3 (8.6%)
Yes to Unholy armor cost decrease
3 (8.6%)
Yes to Firebolt cost decrease
4 (11.4%)
Yes to Flameshield cost decrease
3 (8.6%)
Yes to Polymorph slight cost decrease
4 (11.4%)
I voted
5 (14.3%)

Total Members Voted 8

Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance! 1482  66

Grunt Posts: 101 Karma: +10/-0 ***

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Re: Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance!
« Reply #60 on: November 13, 2018, 03:57:52 PM »
I think Exorcism being able to hit Ogre Mages could be interesting.

Exorcism nullifying OM mana, or unlusting units would be awesome

Except that wouldn't be exorcism anymore we might as well rename it dispel at this point.

I mean one could argue it may be fun to have skeletons as the primary spell for death knights, a strong shield instead of a heal for paladins or haste and why not summon demons for axe throwers instead of trolls regeneration and divine intervention for mages so that they can revive units. Soon enough that would not be anything like war2 anymore we can achieve balance without changing the mechanics nor the way the game works.

I created that post because I saw a lot of people talking about balancing things but really they mostly suggest we change the game. Warcraft 2 is a game that first is not badly designed, second is not that badly balanced either, and third which remaining success relies primarily on nostalgia.

People come back to the game that they remember and loved, almost every old player remembers paladins have heal and exorcism it is iconic they love these spells they remember what you could use it for, most people remember heal as being good because if felt good throughout the campaign,  most of them didn't ever use lust as efficiently as we do.

Almost none of them remembers exactly how much heal was able to heal and how much mana it cost, they certainly don't remember how powerful exorcism was and how much mana it cost. Players tend to have a memory bias they remember the game as being more balanced than it really is but they do remember very well what spells are and what they were used for.

People want to play the game they remember they come back for these cool mechanics, if it happens to be more balanced that is very good because either they wont remember or they will welcome the change because it will still be war2 but if it feels different that is where you start to loose people big time.

That is why here I am talking balance changes, and numbers tweaking, not mechanics changes or re-design (except for heal not having cap to behave like exorcism because that people wont remember and as mentioned before it should always have been the case).


Axe Thrower Posts: 255 Karma: +33/-4 ****

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Re: Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance!
« Reply #61 on: November 13, 2018, 04:42:40 PM »
I think Exorcism being able to hit Ogre Mages could be interesting.

Exorcism nullifying OM mana, or unlusting units would be awesome

Except that wouldn't be exorcism anymore we might as well rename it dispel at this point.

I mean one could argue it may be fun to have skeletons as the primary spell for death knights, a strong shield instead of a heal for paladins or haste and why not summon demons for axe throwers instead of trolls regeneration and divine intervention for mages so that they can revive units. Soon enough that would not be anything like war2 anymore we can achieve balance without changing the mechanics nor the way the game works.

I created that post because I saw a lot of people talking about balancing things but really they mostly suggest we change the game. Warcraft 2 is a game that first is not badly designed, second is not that badly balanced either, and third which remaining success relies primarily on nostalgia.

People come back to the game that they remember and loved, almost every old player remembers paladins have heal and exorcism it is iconic they love these spells they remember what you could use it for, most people remember heal as being good because if felt good throughout the campaign,  most of them didn't ever use lust as efficiently as we do.

Almost none of them remembers exactly how much heal was able to heal and how much mana it cost, they certainly don't remember how powerful exorcism was and how much mana it cost. Players tend to have a memory bias they remember the game as being more balanced than it really is but they do remember very well what spells are and what they were used for.

People want to play the game they remember they come back for these cool mechanics, if it happens to be more balanced that is very good because either they wont remember or they will welcome the change because it will still be war2 but if it feels different that is where you start to loose people big time.

That is why here I am talking balance changes, and numbers tweaking, not mechanics changes or re-design (except for heal not having cap to behave like exorcism because that people wont remember and as mentioned before it should always have been the case).




I think Exorcism being able to hit Ogre Mages could be interesting.

Exorcism nullifying OM mana, or unlusting units would be awesome
Death Knight Posts: 3022 Karma: +71/-2 retired, be in music section *********

easycompany

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Re: Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance!
« Reply #62 on: November 13, 2018, 07:09:26 PM »
just take away castle stage all together.
Grunt Posts: 101 Karma: +10/-0 ***

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Re: Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance!
« Reply #63 on: November 13, 2018, 11:37:18 PM »
just take away castle stage all together.

I laughed  :thumbsup:
Death Knight Posts: 3022 Karma: +71/-2 retired, be in music section *********

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Re: Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance!
« Reply #64 on: November 13, 2018, 11:50:44 PM »
 ;D but what we are wanting to find is the "this spell can cast without a unit" stuff and make heal cast..then work to find how to make it target a unit like exo...is it possible idk
Ogre Posts: 1024 Karma: +66/-0 *******

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Re: Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance!
« Reply #65 on: November 14, 2018, 06:06:08 AM »
;D but what we are wanting to find is the "this spell can cast without a unit" stuff and make heal cast..then work to find how to make it target a unit like exo...is it possible idk

no idea, but I agree that would be a cool mod.
Peon Posts: 19 Karma: +4/-0 **

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Re: Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance!
« Reply #66 on: November 14, 2018, 11:05:26 AM »
So, lets compare D&D and blizzard

The basic mechanism is very similar.
Each D&D cast (25 of mana) generates 5 bullets in 5x5 tiles area with basic damage 5-10. Each bullet hit targets 10 times.
Each blizzard cast (25 of mana) generates 5 bullets in 5x5 tiles area with the same basic damage 5-10. Each bullet hit target only once, but it will be recreated 10 times.

The first important thing:
When the game calculates real damage, it take into account the distance between bullet and unit(structure) in pixels.Please note, the this is the real center point of an unit/structure in pixels. And the distance = max(distanceX, distanceY).

If distance*distance > 511 damage will be 2-4 (~22px)
If distance*distance > 1791 damage will be 0 (~42px)

But you can't hit target out of 7x7 tiles square. And one bullet can't hit the same target several times per one game cycle.

Also blizzard needs time for "falling" animation before hitting target, but we'll ignore this. We won`t calculate damage-per-second now.


There are two main differences in D&D and Blizzard bullets generation.
1. D&D bullets are static. And they are always placed into the left-upper corner of the tile.
    Blizzard bullets start moving with offset -110px by X -170px by Y and with step multiple of 12 px.  Also additional starting position offset +11px/-11px can be applied. So, the distance values are more randomized.

2. Blizzard ignores target unit/structure. It takes into account only direct X and Y map coordinates to setup 5x5 generation area.
   D&D pays attention to target position. So, it can be lower/upper corner of the building, and all the 5x5 area will be shifted.


May be I've missed something, but I'm too lazy to check again.

Now you can try to calculate which magic is more preferable in different situations.