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HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced 2117  74

Server Admin Grunt Posts: 210 Karma: +10/-0 *****

Warbux

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HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced
« on: January 20, 2019, 04:43:55 AM »
you know i we have all been wrong this whole time... we dont consider the fact we dont play on the speed the game was ment  to be played on
faster i think is the highest speed that the game is balanced on ... also people do not play hu correctly you can not play them like you play orcs
hu does not require wood in first tier wich means you dont need as many peons as orcs to which means hu are essentially faster
so your able to get a rush out an still have mages befor any orc even clicks his lust upgrade ... so far in my testings im able to rush an still get 2-3 mages out
befor the average person is lusted.. now if we are playin onfaster... an im ahead in speed wit hu .. you can easily take down a orcs 1st lusted wave..
now u can micro your mages more efficient you can slow all his ogres an drop a blizz on him.. clean up the rest with your knights an proceed to hit his base/blizz his gold or whatver
im pretty sure this is why iron man games were only played onf faster because it was balanced!

now this being said id like to start a petition to bring back iron man please so we can play the game the way its ment to be played with hu having a fair chance ty
Grunt Posts: 184 Karma: +12/-0 ***

Cel

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Re: HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced
« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2019, 12:01:40 PM »
lets put it that way differences are not big between the two races it is fairly simple to list them:

Resources:
Overall the resources cost differences for humans on upgrades is not always a win especially since in most map gold is more valuable in the long run yes you do not have to bother putting more peons on wood but you will run out of gold slightly faster too so overall not a real win

If you want to do the maths you can, both races are as fast for rushing 18 grunts except orcs wont have to pull peons out of their mine to get the lumber for tech.
Sure there are situations where you might prefer having humans for example in Friends where chopping peons are exposed but overall it is not a frank win win for humans.
It is a very situational advantage

Ogre vs knight spells:
There is a reason why church is almost never built and the altar of storm a building that is worth repairing to get just a little faster.
vision vs exhorcism:
vision gives better radius but you can use eyes of killrog to make enemy destroyers friendly fire (even if barely anyone does that) and also it lasts longer and allow your to scout multiple mines at once in one go which you cannot do with vision overall utility wise I would say it is a tie since you can use vision better to prepare an attack.
heal :
costs 1k gold and 200 ticks to research it is 2 times slower to get than lust
Useless because it simply does not heal enough to have a big enough impact for the time and cost it has.
exhorcism:
can be usefull but also costs 2k gold to research which is two times more than runes or bloodlust and also 200 ticks to reasearch (2 times slower than bloodlust) for an effect that is undoubtedly lower value and way more situational.

Now lets get to the fun part:

mage vs dk spells:
Here I will compare spells with their usage counterparts:
Coil vs Polymorphism
Coil is free you get it from the start and costs 100 mana two coils can kill almost any units in the game and also heal the dk back to full life.
Polymorphism costs 200 mana 2kgold and 200 ticks to research and will allow you to kill one unit instantly. You have to have the 200 mana to use it which makes it more situational.
Invisibility vs Haste:
Both spells allow one unit to surprise an enemy and do tons of damage before the enemy has time to react
Invisibility has the advantage that it can be used to scout  without enemy noticing.
Haste has the advantage that it doubles dragons damages and peons chops.
On the cost side of things it also costs 2k less gold 150 less mana and is researched twice as fast
Slow vs Haste:
You have to use slow during fights while enemies are moving targeting moving units is not as simple as preparing an attack and then send.
But it is true that slow works pretty much on all units. it is worth mentioning that both spells cancel each other.
Slow is a very good spell but it is single target and very uc intensive for the same cost as haste you get much more ease of use with haste though haste wont allow you to speed up the attacks of your units only dragons are an exception to that rule.

If you haste your units before a fight the human player will have to slow them twice to be able to slow them once to remove haste and a second time to slow them...

I dont think I need to compare tornado and flameshield whirlwind wins any day the only drawback is you do not decide exactly where it will wander.
Skeletons is a useless spell and very situational that cost a whole amount of money and has no human counterparts so we can leave it behind.

Balistas vs cats:
ballistas have to load their shots and they can also loose the bolt cats instantly fire no stupid loading time no cancel time. everything else is the same.

Archers vs trolls:
the only difference between the two is troll Regeneration vs Marksmanship which are occasionally researched but in very situational situations and mostly for trolling no puns intended.

Every strategy that you can play as a human player can be played as an orc player for almost exactly the same effect, the power to lust strat though has no equivalent for humans.
Also human mages are useless without any spell researched not Deathknights who basically have a polymorph spell for free right as they appear into existence.

So yes humans are in almost all regards weaker than orcs and this has not only to do with game speed you can play it at the slowest speed possible an orc will still have the advantage.
The only change really is that the faster the game goes the least refined the uc becomes.
Orcs spells being less uc intensive makes them more playable in fastest though to be honest it is still a mess.
Play fastest if you do not like uc and want to have more units on the map basically.
Grunt Posts: 118 Karma: +11/-0 ***

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Re: HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2019, 01:21:47 PM »
Your post is very spot on I would say. Although humans are a lot more fun to play for me personally (I always liked the challenge) orc definitely has the advantage late game. And that is solely based on BloodLust alone. All of the spells the human mages have are 100% useless on fastest. Even the evenfaster speed setting the spells are not efficient enough to research and use. On the faster speed, although still harder to play late game with humans, is more manageable than the higher speeds.

How many times do players like me and dugs see our allies type "if only you had lust we could have won"? But for the love of the alliance, WE SHALL NEVER CHAAAAAAAAANGE
Grunt Posts: 184 Karma: +12/-0 ***

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Re: HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced
« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2019, 02:24:12 PM »
Yup
Essentially playing humans is almost like playing the orcs without the altar of storms, with spells that are for the most part 2 times more expensive and/or harder to use and of course shitty catapults.

You can still win against another non handicapped orc player, even someone that has the same level as you if you manage to kill him with a rush or if you manage to get super big, while playing around these restrictions but that does not mean it is balanced.
You still have less options available to you at the start ;-)
Server Admin Axe Thrower Posts: 301 Karma: +37/-4 *****

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Re: HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced
« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2019, 03:30:55 PM »
Since humans are a weaker late-game race, you have to be sneaky with them early.  Hide your raxes, fake dual, learn to OT, learn knight/sap rush,  do fast saps if your ally is an excellent rusher. Also, if it gets to late game and you're facing a strong dualer, the best strategy is to secure the enemy's potential expos, play super-defensive and bleed them dry.

Humans aren't an offensive race late-game, they're defensive. This puts a whole new spin on the game for me and I find it more enjoyable.

Oonymaiallymadoos
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Re: HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced
« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2019, 04:16:35 PM »
If you haste your units before a fight the human player will have to slow them twice to be able to slow them once to remove haste and a second time to slow them...


??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

What????
you need only one, haste/ slow wont stack, both spell will remove if u use another slow->faster faster->slow


if u play faster orc player will put A click lust then he will go to his base and control something else, new exp/rax making more ogres
while human will sill micro

orc>>>human
haste dk> invis mage
you can block invis mage while hasted dk will kill your all units if u try block him, ofc buldings will block haste and invis
Server Admin Axe Thrower Posts: 301 Karma: +37/-4 *****

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Re: HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced
« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2019, 06:27:40 PM »

haste dk> invis mage
you can block invis mage while hasted dk will kill your all units if u try block him, ofc buldings will block haste and invis


you're wrong. invis mage >>>>>>>>>>>>> haste dk.   one paladin with full mana and exorcise the dk in one DONG. invis mae is super OP
Server Admin Grunt Posts: 210 Karma: +10/-0 *****

Warbux

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Re: HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced
« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2019, 07:28:49 PM »
Resources:
Overall the resources cost differences for humans on upgrades is not always a win especially since in most map gold is more valuable in the long run yes you do not have to bother putting more peons on wood but you will run out of gold slightly faster too so overall not a real win
ok will start here... u dont need as much peons for tier 1 is what i emnt ok so when u tech faster at lets say 16 15 peasants.. u have like a45 second speed advantage .. once u tech u pull 5 out mine an chop .. leave 10 in the mine ... then u make 2 peasants add them to wood as ur makin a stable u do not rep the stable.. once stable is done u go castle .. then once castle is done u spam more peasants put them on gold... an of make 2 mage towers an a church.. by the time ur done wit this ull have about 7 knights 2-3 mages and holy vision all befor a orc hits lust.. id say thats a huge advantage not needing as many peasants

and ps ... u dro pa early mill for wood advantage an use the peasant u made the mill with to chop early so he will pay for ur stable.. the others will pay for your castle.. sometimes i move more from gold to wood wood to gold depending the situaiton but its all about resource management gettin the resoureces when u need it ... so hu has a huge speed advantage an it doesnt affect your gold in game
Server Admin Grunt Posts: 210 Karma: +10/-0 *****

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Re: HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced
« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2019, 07:33:23 PM »
the rest of what u said is just opinion so no need to comment there.. but yes on faster the game is balanced simple as that.. we need iron man back!!
Server Admin Grunt Posts: 210 Karma: +10/-0 *****

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Re: HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced
« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2019, 07:41:10 PM »
do you realize how op holy vision is cel? its like u dont need ot send little eye balls to find people u jus bam pick a spot on the the map see the whole area,,, and like he said excor a dk killer easy.. and heal .. if u all healed as computers healed with all knights healing 1 knight u would see the huge advantage in heal being able to heal 1 knight to full health only using a tiny bit of mana off each knight with multicast.....i think the game is completly balanced on hu vs orc an theres no way of proving it unless u get derber orc vs derber hu becuz no 1 is the same lvl of skill to fully show a fair lvl game...

regardless we need iron man back so we can play this game properly.... we use to play fastest to play more games an play with more people but
lets be honest were getting old fastest went out the window we all play ef now ... and why do we need to speed up the games? no rush to rehost your lucky to get another game as ur prolly gonna be playin with the same people if no 1 leaves... faster is more balanced and theres really no excuse anymore to play anything faster then that other then the facts were all use to ef
Server Admin Grunt Posts: 210 Karma: +10/-0 *****

Warbux

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Re: HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced
« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2019, 07:55:40 PM »
If you haste your units before a fight the human player will have to slow them twice to be able to slow them once to remove haste and a second time to slow them...


??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

What????
you need only one, haste/ slow wont stack, both spell will remove if u use another slow->faster faster->slow


if u play faster orc player will put A click lust then he will go to his base and control something else, new exp/rax making more ogres
while human will sill micro

orc>>>human
haste dk> invis mage
you can block invis mage while hasted dk will kill your all units if u try block him, ofc buldings will block haste and invis

goes both anyways orc or hu can cntrl 1 2 3 4 there raxes an make knights / ogies wit out lookln at there base ... an since t he best way to micro wit humans is to run your knights away to wear off lust so u can easily micro u dont need to engage on the orcs terms u run knights away heal them engage after lust..
Server Admin Grunt Posts: 210 Karma: +10/-0 *****

Warbux

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Re: HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced
« Reply #11 on: January 21, 2019, 10:52:22 PM »
omg i jus read the rest of ur 1st post cel... an i wish i can take my minutes back.. im like scratching my head if i didnt see u on id assume u didnt even play wc2 XD ... i dont think you said 1 correct thing
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Re: HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced
« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2019, 01:57:50 AM »
dwarves... just patrol them ...boom!
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Re: HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced
« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2019, 02:21:41 AM »
Game was probably balanced on "Normal" speed. It was fun to play on that speed back when you first started playing, however if we played on it today we'd be playing 1.5 / 2 hr games.
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Re: HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced
« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2019, 02:28:42 AM »
@Szwagier And I agree, all I meant is if you haste a unit a mage cannot slow it unless it casts slow two times. Once to remove haste second time for slowing after the haste was canceled.
You are basically saying the same thing, maybe it is clearer if I formulate it that way :-)

@Warbux All I say is true though these are numbers not feelings.
Szwagier is right you can body block invisible mages and wall them off, and you can use runes to catch them  as they go through expected path ways.
Also he is right to say that there is no stopping a hasted dk it will do damages no matter what, if it does not manage to get to your mine it can still kill whatever was in the way.

The real superiority of haste though is its versatility you can use it to do a lot of things and it is the cheapest spell to both research and use there is.

Every single numbers that I gave are right, prices are also right and these spells are effectively used that way.

Now I am not saying strategies do not exist that human can win with.
Some strategies are both available to orcs and humans for example:
- powering to ogres/knights,
- powering to sappers,
- powering to mages
- rushing,
- dualing
etc...

And they are for the most part almost as easy to pull off as a human as it would be for an orc and as deadly.
What I am saying here, is orcs just have more options available to them and can afford to fail more because of the possibility of falling back to lust if the original strategy failed.
Humans do not have a mid game option, there is no in between early and late game for humans they cannot afford to fail.

And again if you want to compare, you have to take into account numbers too, how long does it take you to make two mages + research blizzard and invisibility then having enough mana for both spells and  hit your first target with the combo.
How long do you think it takes an orc to have D&D and haste and two dks with enough mana to hit their first target?

Even if you somehow managed to have it out at the same time which is impossible you are still missing a nuke in case you face enemy mages or if you get hit before blizzard is finished researching. Death knights have Coil for free!
They have the best nuke/heal spell in the game, for free, and you have fireball lol now good luck proving fireball is super good.
Hell even if polymorphism was the free spell for humans I would still rather have Coil.
Why you may say?
Because I played enough humans to know that if I just finished producing two dks they almost immediately can use Coil because it only cost 100 mana, if I get two mages out they just cannot cast polymorph they are sitting ducks waiting to be slaughtered.

You have the 200 mana in total, you just do not have it on one unit. Every time you cast a spell with a mage that situation will happen because this mage wont be able to nuke anything for a looong time. So you have to time it in your head, and make sure you know which mage has what amount of mana all game.
With DKs you do not have that problem 100 mana is much easier to reach and it wont be hard for you to find a dk that has enough mana to use that nuke during the game you dont have to even think about that.

If you play humans a lot you will understand what I am talking about, having mages standing behind just so that they have enough mana later you are basically always managing that mana.

Now you may say there is slow right! Well spot on! slow is actually way better than polymorph but you still have to research it, it is not free.

So lets add all that if you add 200 ticks for blizzard 200 ticks for invisibility and 100 ticks for slow. And if you sum all that up you have 500 ticks of research to do before you get your late game mage equivalent to dks.
For the price: 5000 gold to get all these researched.

If you take polymorph instead of slow that is even crazier:
600 ticks worth of game time.
6500 gold.

for orcs well that takes 300 ticks worth of time to research 250 ticks if you go for whirlwind instead of d&d.
And well the price I think it is easy to do the math as well: 2500 gold if you go for d&d 2000k if you go for whirlwind instead.

lets sum that up:
If you only take blizzard and invisibility and have no extra useful spells:
400 ticks
4500 gold
Best timing for human with slow:
500 ticks
5000 gold
worst timing for human (polymorph instead of slow):
600 ticks
6500 gold

best timing for orc (whirlwind):
250 ticks
2000 gold
worst timing for orc (d&d):
300 ticks
2500 gold

Now how much faster do you think a human can get his mages ready to fight an orc that goes for the same strategy?
Even if the spells were better in your opinion how much of a lead do you think 4k gold and 2 times faster researches gives at that time in the game?

 :peon: