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HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced 1239  74

Peon Posts: 48 Karma: +3/-0 **

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Re: HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced
« Reply #30 on: January 29, 2019, 08:53:00 PM »
You cant click  with palladin exo on haste dk cause he will run when he was when u click, So you need full control Micro while your opponent will Just macro

Anyway why non tier 1 player think orc=human??

u dont need to click on DK all u need ot lcick is the ground in the area of any dk an it does exo
Peon Posts: 48 Karma: +3/-0 **

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Re: HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced
« Reply #31 on: January 29, 2019, 08:55:07 PM »
people can sit here an talk how they played for 20 years like they know it all .. simple fact is they went through years of patching this game befor it went to battle net an it is balanced if you play on the speed it was intended for ..an even on faster i would say its almsot fairly balanced which is why they allow it for iron man an ladder .. an they dont allow ef or fastest because of the unbalanced... people jus dont know how to play human correctly your dealing with the resources all wrong say what you want your jus wrong period
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Re: HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced
« Reply #32 on: January 29, 2019, 08:56:45 PM »
humans were made to tech faster there for can have mages and paladins befor a orc can even reach lust .. if you play it right an use it to your advantage you can beat an orc befor he reaches lust... not to mention the spells mages and paladins have... you dont need to click on a dk to exo all you need to do is click the ground around them an it does its damage...and wit more time to macro you can work the heal correctly / multicast heal so it takes little to no mana from each paly per unit healing ... if you play wit palys an mages together correctly you can beat lust on the correct speed
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Re: HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced
« Reply #33 on: January 29, 2019, 09:00:38 PM »
and cel im sorry i cant even read your post because your playing humans an orcs the same way an its not played that way you need more peons in teir 1 for orcs humans dont require the same amount so your ticks are wrong
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Re: HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced
« Reply #34 on: January 29, 2019, 09:05:32 PM »
get out of the "i need to mine gold faster then him so i can win" mind state an go for the resources u need... u dont need so many in the mine because your getting gold that you cant even spend yet... use your peons correctly an put them on the resources that you are goin to need an you are faster.. peons need wood for upgrades in tier 1 humans dont there for humans dont need to chop until after they click the keep tech... maybe 1 chopper tops befor then jus to pay for stable... its about getting the resources you need at the time you need it that maximizes your speed
Peon Posts: 48 Karma: +3/-0 **

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Re: HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced
« Reply #35 on: January 29, 2019, 09:07:15 PM »
if i got a tier 1 player to apply what im saying here he would rape any orc wit humans 1v1 easy ... to bad im not good enough to prove it XD
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Re: HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced
« Reply #36 on: January 29, 2019, 10:33:01 PM »
human <orc .. the end.
Grunt Posts: 172 Karma: +12/-0 ***

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Re: HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced
« Reply #37 on: January 30, 2019, 09:26:43 AM »
I keep answering respectfully because maybe you are being serious with the whole thing but I honestly thing you may just be trolling at this point.
You seriously think that in 20 years you are the first one who wants to make it work?
Do you think no one ever ran the math before you to see how much game speed affected both races?

My "ticks" are not wrong, a tick is one game time unit that is not depending on the speed the game is played at, that is what ticks are.
Warcraft 2 is a turn based game where turns are ticks and time is what makes every turn pass to the next.
If you want to remove time out of the equation it is simple: consider war2 a turn based game where a tick is one turn which is why talking in ticks makes sense.

Humans need less workers than Orcs? In what scenario exactly? Prove it!
Do the math and / or share with us one build order that works better for humans than orcs where humans have such an advantage.
And when I say a build order I mean for every peon up to the time you get your advantage tell us what are the orders you give them.

Maybe you feel more comfortable putting your peasant in the gold and not on the wood that is your preference but you see the thing is your argument without facts to back it up can go both ways. One might say if you fail to be as fast when playing the orcs than as a human it just mean you are bad at managing your resources it basically is not relevant.
But hey!
If you really think you can come up with a build order that will allow you to get footmen / knights / Mages faster with better upgrades as humans than an orc can do please go ahead and give us the build order including every peons and what you send them to do.

That way we can discuss / analyse / compare with what an orc may be able to do in the same amount of game time (Ticks) and  starting resources, that would be more interesting than just opinionated statements.

Here is what a fact looks like:
On POS low and many other settings human weapon upgrade cost 1200 more gold than the orc weapon upgrade this is 2 extra grunts from the starting gold mine. On a map like this it can be a significant advantage.
As in many other maps really where gold is more scarce than lumber gold is the one resource players are used fighting over. Now that is also true and undeniable.

Some other fruits for though:
Submarines / Giant turtles rush requires exactly the same number of peons / peasants before upgrading your keep to get your first two turtles out.
same Sappers / Demos Rush.
same goes for DK + D&D / Mage + Blizzard Rush.
Fact is it is true because for all these strats the units / upgrades and ticks costs are exactly the same.

I am betting your point is if you do upgrade your melee troops and include that to your build order it changes things then all I am asking is that you prove it and give us a real undeniable fact to look at.

Now more facts:
The speed makes targeting slow and other tricky spells of humans easier so we may assume an ideal scenario where both players always cast their spell perfectly and never miss:
If humans have perfect micro then the same goes for orcs.
Meaning if both players bring mages and dks to the fight slow and haste are canceled out everytime because both spells take exactly the same amount of resources and game time to get for both races.

The way lust is: as soon as ogres have lust it is safe to consider that lust will always be up on them so no there is no out-running them it is always up.

The hit point healed by heal are just nothing compared to lust I gave the math behind this earlier the spell cost exactly the same price in gold and double the time to research and does not have at all a comparable impact on the game and is harder to use properly.

But hey we said perfect micro here game is super slow both players will have the time to perfectly use all spells.
What does that give us:

6 points of mana for heal = 1 hit point

Heal:
1 point of mana = 0.16666667 hit points

For lust if you use it on an ogre attacking something the ogre has the time to land 40 hits maximum:
We are talking here 16 bonus damage per hit times 40 = 640 bonus damage for 50 mana:

Lust if the ogre lands all his punches (40):
50 mana = 640 bonus damage.
1 point of mana = 12.8 hit points

Lust if the ogre lands only one single punch:
50 mana = 16 bonus damage.
1 point of mana = 0.32 hit points


So to resume if we do not take player mistakes into account and consider a hypothetical perfect micro environment we can compare the two spells by their mana vs hit points balance ratio:
Worst case scenario for humans Lust is 80 times as efficient as heal.
Best case scenario for humans Lust is still twice as efficient as heal.

And keep in mind both spells can be used on all organic units but heal will only affect organic units while lust will also boost damages against buildings and structures or mechanical units.

Also that it will cost twice the time to research heal (200 ticks vs 100 ticks for lust).

Funny that you would mention Exhorcism is a very expensive spell (2 times more expensive than its counter parts and is slower to research too), it has a use on one single type of unit out of the 30 units the game really has which unit they already do pretty good against in most situations. Not often that a dk will escape 2 knights running at him so the plus value of exhorcism there is debatable.
So we are talking here a very very situational thing hat has a 4 mana cost per hit points balance effect.

Exhorcism:
1 point of mana = 0.25 hit points


Still is 0.25 hit points per mana.
So still not as effective as a one punch lust (0.32).
Do you seriously think any reasonable player would rather have exhorcism than lust or runes, even if it was for the same price and research time?

Same goes for mage spells vs death knights spells everything humans have orcs have but better / cheaper / faster.

Unless you can bring something to the table that is an actual fact that is measurable and comparable not just statements this wont go anywhere.

I honestly think that keeping an open mind is important, I am ok with the idea that we all could be wrong for so long, but I am not just buying opinions without facts and repeatable or calculable evidence to back them up.
Undeniable facts that would be big enough to overcome the ones I just gave you.

If no facts are given it just is a matter of belief and this usually does not go anywhere.
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Re: HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced
« Reply #38 on: January 30, 2019, 10:13:02 AM »
One thing that needs to be remembered is the hotkeys as well. Yeah some people did change their original keys but was that even possible when the game was released?

Humans have the advantage with hotkeys. P for paladin and peasent. You could quickly cycle through your Halls and barracks.

B for build, barrack, ballista, blizzard. One hotkey covering all of those things.

BT for build tower, and T for Train Mage, and T for stand ground

When there is no gold no lumber no oil and instant click then Humans are the best  :D

I think in the slower speeds that I agree humans would be the superior race. Bloodlust would just be too ineffective while Holy Vision would be a big advantage.
Grunt Posts: 172 Karma: +12/-0 ***

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Re: HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced
« Reply #39 on: January 30, 2019, 11:28:08 AM »
Better hotkeys is a fact and valuable point though if the speed is not taken into account having better hotkeys has no effect on the game play.
Hotkeys are a way to make something faster so their effect really is tied up to the speed the game is played at.

Because we all agree here that the overall effect of speed is being detrimental for humans I guess we can safely say hotkeys are a non factor regarding human vs orcs balance compared to ease of actually using spells if anything it makes humans suck just a little bit less but they still suck.

What would make lust not effective the lower the speed goes? It still would last the same amount of ticks and can still be always up and math show its effect on hit points per mana spent is still better than heal even if ogres only land 1 punch.
Ogres and Paladins regenerate mana at the same rate and have the same maximum mana.
Which makes comparing their potential effect on hit points more relevant to analyse their efficiency.

As a matter of fact I am willing to bet the slower the game goes the better orcs tend to utilize their lust time.
But yeah that effect is more visible for heal since the spell is that much harder to use.
My point being even if both players use perfectly their spells Lust still has a better mana vs hit points final effect ratio.

Holy vision is a great spell but is not that much better than eyes of kilrog. Especially when speed is removed of the equation the eye of kilrog will allow you to check pretty much every mine / potential expo of your enemy without spending that much mana humans will have to spend more than one holy vision to get that same information.

So the way I see it although holy vision will allow you to prepare an engagement better in some situation it is still not that great in other situations that for me makes these spells pretty balanced.
Also there is the fun factor of eye of kilrog allowing you to make packed enemy destroyers sink each others :P

Every single number that differ and is not relative to game speed goes in favor of orcs being the trump card race.

All I am saying here the imbalance is a thing and facts are there to back it up.
Now it does not mean it is a problem that has to be addressed but facts are facts.
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Re: HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced
« Reply #40 on: January 30, 2019, 11:36:47 AM »
i say just scrap war2 and remake sc alphabeta :thumbsup:
Grunt Posts: 172 Karma: +12/-0 ***

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Re: HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced
« Reply #41 on: January 30, 2019, 12:08:10 PM »
I say keep war2 and love it for what it is, even if it is not perfectly balanced.

Nothing does everything perfectly. War2 has things it does better and things it does not.
Try loving it for what it actually is, no need to turn a blind eye on things people may think are bad.

War2 to me is the best real time grid / board / space management game ever made, I do not care about small imbalances there and there that is the plain truth.
Imbalances are just not bad enough to over shadow all the things war2 does better and that you wont find in any other game out there.

Also maybe it is good that the races are not perfectly balanced maybe it is better that way.

As I explained before I don't see why denying it.
Hell even when you remove speed of the equation numbers do not back the fact that speed is the only factor that makes orcs stronger.

In any case if you really want to deny it, have some real solid proof that overcomes all these facts piled up for 20 years of knowledge about the game but that I doubt may ever happen.

And honestly I genuinely do not care balance is not everything otherwise everyone would have stopped playing GOW by now...

And that is a statement based on the bad side of imbalances but imbalances also can make things more spicy more interesting to look at.
Perfectly balanced game-play can also make things feel empty and too linear no power spikes no rythm just boredom.

Point being I agree with TK on that one, imabalances are here, so what?
Lets just play that freaking awesome game!
The end.
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Re: HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced
« Reply #42 on: January 30, 2019, 01:15:39 PM »
I think part of the reason that humans are also generally viewed as weaker is because the majority of games are played on GOW, where that map is conducive to mass ogre attacks which ofc bloodlust significantly tilts the favor. Because there is much more shit going on, its much harder to micro and take advantage exorcism, polymorph and other unit specific actions. "Most" people generally find it easier to lust a group of ogres and patrol off given all the other shit going on.

If you consider other speeds and other types of maps (whether water or even land maps where micro is more important) then I think humans are generally about even with orcs.
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Re: HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced
« Reply #43 on: January 30, 2019, 01:37:43 PM »
Peon Posts: 48 Karma: +3/-0 **

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Re: HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced
« Reply #44 on: January 30, 2019, 02:13:51 PM »
I keep answering respectfully because maybe you are being serious with the whole thing but I honestly thing you may just be trolling at this point.
You seriously think that in 20 years you are the first one who wants to make it work?
Do you think no one ever ran the math before you to see how much game speed affected both races?

My "ticks" are not wrong, a tick is one game time unit that is not depending on the speed the game is played at, that is what ticks are.
Warcraft 2 is a turn based game where turns are ticks and time is what makes every turn pass to the next.
If you want to remove time out of the equation it is simple: consider war2 a turn based game where a tick is one turn which is why talking in ticks makes sense.

Humans need less workers than Orcs? In what scenario exactly? Prove it!
Do the math and / or share with us one build order that works better for humans than orcs where humans have such an advantage.
And when I say a build order I mean for every peon up to the time you get your advantage tell us what are the orders you give them.

Maybe you feel more comfortable putting your peasant in the gold and not on the wood that is your preference but you see the thing is your argument without facts to back it up can go both ways. One might say if you fail to be as fast when playing the orcs than as a human it just mean you are bad at managing your resources it basically is not relevant.
But hey!
If you really think you can come up with a build order that will allow you to get footmen / knights / Mages faster with better upgrades as humans than an orc can do please go ahead and give us the build order including every peons and what you send them to do.

That way we can discuss / analyse / compare with what an orc may be able to do in the same amount of game time (Ticks) and  starting resources, that would be more interesting than just opinionated statements.

Here is what a fact looks like:
On POS low and many other settings human weapon upgrade cost 1200 more gold than the orc weapon upgrade this is 2 extra grunts from the starting gold mine. On a map like this it can be a significant advantage.
As in many other maps really where gold is more scarce than lumber gold is the one resource players are used fighting over. Now that is also true and undeniable.

Some other fruits for though:
Submarines / Giant turtles rush requires exactly the same number of peons / peasants before upgrading your keep to get your first two turtles out.
same Sappers / Demos Rush.
same goes for DK + D&D / Mage + Blizzard Rush.
Fact is it is true because for all these strats the units / upgrades and ticks costs are exactly the same.

I am betting your point is if you do upgrade your melee troops and include that to your build order it changes things then all I am asking is that you prove it and give us a real undeniable fact to look at.

Now more facts:
The speed makes targeting slow and other tricky spells of humans easier so we may assume an ideal scenario where both players always cast their spell perfectly and never miss:
If humans have perfect micro then the same goes for orcs.
Meaning if both players bring mages and dks to the fight slow and haste are canceled out everytime because both spells take exactly the same amount of resources and game time to get for both races.

The way lust is: as soon as ogres have lust it is safe to consider that lust will always be up on them so no there is no out-running them it is always up.

The hit point healed by heal are just nothing compared to lust I gave the math behind this earlier the spell cost exactly the same price in gold and double the time to research and does not have at all a comparable impact on the game and is harder to use properly.

But hey we said perfect micro here game is super slow both players will have the time to perfectly use all spells.
What does that give us:

6 points of mana for heal = 1 hit point

Heal:
1 point of mana = 0.16666667 hit points

For lust if you use it on an ogre attacking something the ogre has the time to land 40 hits maximum:
We are talking here 16 bonus damage per hit times 40 = 640 bonus damage for 50 mana:

Lust if the ogre lands all his punches (40):
50 mana = 640 bonus damage.
1 point of mana = 12.8 hit points

Lust if the ogre lands only one single punch:
50 mana = 16 bonus damage.
1 point of mana = 0.32 hit points


So to resume if we do not take player mistakes into account and consider a hypothetical perfect micro environment we can compare the two spells by their mana vs hit points balance ratio:
Worst case scenario for humans Lust is 80 times as efficient as heal.
Best case scenario for humans Lust is still twice as efficient as heal.

And keep in mind both spells can be used on all organic units but heal will only affect organic units while lust will also boost damages against buildings and structures or mechanical units.

Also that it will cost twice the time to research heal (200 ticks vs 100 ticks for lust).

Funny that you would mention Exhorcism is a very expensive spell (2 times more expensive than its counter parts and is slower to research too), it has a use on one single type of unit out of the 30 units the game really has which unit they already do pretty good against in most situations. Not often that a dk will escape 2 knights running at him so the plus value of exhorcism there is debatable.
So we are talking here a very very situational thing hat has a 4 mana cost per hit points balance effect.

Exhorcism:
1 point of mana = 0.25 hit points


Still is 0.25 hit points per mana.
So still not as effective as a one punch lust (0.32).
Do you seriously think any reasonable player would rather have exhorcism than lust or runes, even if it was for the same price and research time?

Same goes for mage spells vs death knights spells everything humans have orcs have but better / cheaper / faster.

Unless you can bring something to the table that is an actual fact that is measurable and comparable not just statements this wont go anywhere.

I honestly think that keeping an open mind is important, I am ok with the idea that we all could be wrong for so long, but I am not just buying opinions without facts and repeatable or calculable evidence to back them up.
Undeniable facts that would be big enough to overcome the ones I just gave you.

If no facts are given it just is a matter of belief and this usually does not go anywhere.

already proved orcs need more wood then humans tier 1 there for need more workers gold is a easier resource to get so hu can get the extra gold faster then orcs can get the extra wood ... so not needing wood in tier 1 for humans lets them tech faster ... i dont see what is so hard to understand? what do i need to prove to you do you need screen shots of how much the upgrades cost?