I'm on the anti mod side in terms of changing game play.]
Chop- You're taking away a feature of the game because it is too difficult for some people?
No. Adding a missing feature.
I should be more clear. I meant in terms of changing game play. I only have issues with the 2 subjects that were bolded. The chop and health bars.
Ok. Thank you for your more thoughtful reply this time, I will try to address it as as best I can.
There is only one. There is no health bars plugin, only the chop bars. I actually altered the prototype health bars source code and changed it into the chop bars plugin, so I don't even have that. I could of course re-create it or something similar, but so far it no longer exists. You can of course always feel free to pause and ask me for a SS any time if it makes you feel better, I won't be offended.
"adding a missing feature" is a subjective input that you are speaking to as if it were objective. I'm sure Blizzard would disagree. Just because you feel it is right, doesn't mean it is.
..most people aren't good at it, so let's make it easier, type situation. This is why millennials have such a lazy ass reputation.
"Providing more information means there's another thing to consider, I don't think that makes anything easier, just allows you to make better decisions."
Again, give me auto peons, auto lust, etc etc etc. You are not saying anything to defend the fact that you are automating a feature that requires skill in the first place. Making things easier doesn't necessarily make it more fun, especially at a competitive level.
Yes, I believe "adding a mising feature" is very accurate, regardless of whether or not people agree that the feature is valid or should have been added, I think that this is an objective and literal description. This is also not very relevant, so let's move on.
I don't know why you keep harping on about automating peon training and lust. Apart from sharing the very broad umbrella definition of "they are game mods" these things have absolutely nothing to do with chop bars.
Providing information about your own units so that the player can make decisions on what actions to take is VERY different from hacks that automate things and actually perform actions for the player without their input.
In fact as far as mods go, these things are pretty much diametrically opposed. Please find a better example.
Hey, guys, while we are at it, (blah blah blah - rather silly rant). Oh, that would just destroy the game.
"Sounds like you just answered your own question."
Right and I just related those things to what we are doing to the game. Where is the disconnect at? You didn't respond to anything.
You listed what were IMHO rather silly examples of things that would definitely have a detrimental effect on the game, and asked why they shouldn't also be done, then said "Oh, that would just destroy the game."
So you have answered the question with the very obvious answer. I'm having trouble believing that I really need to explain that response.
I do understand that you are invoking hyperbole in order to try and make a point, but unless your point is that NO mods should ever be made at all
, then it seems to be a logical fallacy - i.e. listing other mods that would
be detrimental to the game is not an argument that the mod in question is also detrimental.
This is why millennials have such a lazy ass reputation.
"Well I don't know about you, but I turn 49 next month."
You win that one.
Funny that doesn't feel like a win lol
Health Bars- Same thing...
"There are already health bars for all selected units, your own or other players. Personally I think it would be a vast improvement to have them under the unit like any normal game does, and it would definitely make the game more accessable to new users, who I care about much more than crusty old nay-sayers.
Anyway, at this stage that doesn't exist yet. If you actually want to have any input apart from "don't do anything at all" perhaps you could be more specific about exactly what you are against. Having the info on the game screen instead of the panel on the left? or was there some other thing you were thinking about?"
Okay, and there are ways to make peons already, so why not automate it? Pointing out the game has a feature already that has to be manually done is not a valid argument here against anything I've said. Again, it is a skill set you are taking away by automating.
Providing information about your own units is NOT automation.
I asked you to be more specific and you start talking about unit producton.
There is no realistic way to get chopping progress information and actually play the game as well. Not even if you are the most super autistic-genius "rain man" freak of nature that ever lived. Nobody can keep track of all their choppers and still attack/defend/build/train/upgrade/micro at the same time. Suggesting that this is a skill that anybody on earth has ever posessed is just silly.
Are you really suggesting that you or anyone else can do this? I hope not or I will just have to laugh and give up.
Not even if you close your eyes, hold your breath and wish REALLY hard, I'm sorry but chopping progress bars are not automation.
If you wish to argue that the game designers deliberately decided to withhold this information from players, and that knowing it is detrimental to the game, then I disagree but will honestly and openly consider your argument, and if you make it well enough I may even end up agreeing with you (although I doubt it), however attempting to describe it as automation is simply a fallacy.
I do appreciate people trying to do good for the game and improve things. ....It is not that I am not grateful for all that many people have contributed.,...
"Yeah. I can feel the love. "
My apologies, I know I was being overly sarcastic to prove my point but again, I am just so baffled by us changing the actual game itself. I honestly do appreciate it and do appreciate the things you (and others) have done for this game.
I don't need accolades, if you have concerns about anything I have done or am planning to do then I absolutely do want to hear any reasoned and reasonable objections.
I just think we might be getting to a point where its like, what can do we do now!?!!?!
"Damn right. So what can you do apart from play the same old stuff, in the same old way, with the same old people and scare away any new players?"
I don't program at all and cannot do anything technical to help out. What I do is, be very active consistently for years. I don't ban noobs (unless they are unwilling to listen and even if i do i explain why) and offer new people information on hosting/host for them or offer them to play a 1v1 game. I also give crap to anyone who does ban noobs and let them know that this further kills the game. That is my contribution.
Cool. This sounds like a perfect contribution. Keep up the good work... Just go easy on the programmers - they can be as rare as noobs sometimes
And we just do something to do something as opposed to really thinking about it.
"Yeah. No thought at all was put into anything, ever.
HERE'S A QUESTION: HAVE YOU TRIED IT?
Or are you just writing a huge rant against it without even trying it?
That might be the first step in putting some thought into a response yeah?"
Kind of an odd question. Don't knock it till you try it right? I haven't done Heroin, maybe I should....right? Yet, you agree that things like auto lusting ogres would ruin the game, but, have YOU TRIED THAT?!?!? lol.....Hmm... I did indeed tried it in War3TFT as that was a feature that was optional to add. Yes, it changed the game and micro.
Yeah heroin is a dangerously addictive narcotic so that's not a very good comparison. You can easily try the chop bars plugin and make your mind up without becoming addicted and burgularizing your neighbourhood to support your habit. Please try to avoid that kind of school-yard logic, I'm sure you can do better.
Honestly, I really do suggest that you try it, if for no other reason than to reassure yourself that it really isn't some kind of crutch, cheat or gimmie. Technically yes it can
help, but not necessarily.
Interestingly, since developing it I have discovered that about 9 times out of 10 (or probably higher) if 2 peons are chopping the same tree, they are at very close to the same progress and it makes no real difference which one you move. I think this is because the peon chooses where to chop before it walks there, so most times only another peon that is looking for a tree to chop in between the time when the first peon starts walking to the tree, and when it starts chopping will choose the same tree (because the first peon isn't chopping it yet)... I found that interesting. YW.
IMO The only time the chop bars plugin can actually be a real advantage is when you want to pull a peon off lumber to build something, then you can choose the one that has been chopping the least amount of time.
Yes this can be a slight advantage, but
you can also stop to look and discover that all the peons are about the same stage and you have wasted time, or find that the one that has chopped the least is the furthest away from where you want it then spend a second or 2 deciding if it's worth it, thereby negating any advantage you might have gained, or even lose the game because you built the building too late and you really should have just grabbed the nearest peon.
This sort of thing is why I wish you would try it, because I think that you will find that it is just making the game a little bit more interesting, and in the end it still comes down to the individual player's skill and decision making, and the incorrect use of the information provided can actually make you lose the game, not win it. ^^ I bet you have not considered these things, please do ^^
Things like this and the double click hack, lessen my motivation for playing this game.
"Automatic gaming mouses are a sad fact of reality. I don't use them at all. Have never even owned one in my life. They give a real mechanical advantage to game play, that is totally different to providing information to allow people to make intelligent iniformed decisions.
I remember aftermarket SEGA game controllers that automatically hit the start/pause button very fast on and off to make games work in slow-motion, and that was in the 80's ffs. If you're still crying about that sort of thing you seriously need to build a bridge."
I may indeed need to be coached on this one. So, what you're saying is that the mouse itself allows it to happen with it's own hardware and cannot be stopped pretty much? Aka, nothing that can be done about it? If so, I give you this one then.
Like I say I've never owned one, but there was a large display of pro-gaming keyboards and mice last time I went into my local computer store, and they are not a new concept. Just google "gaming mouse" and see what comes up. There are many with fully programmable extra buttons that can perform a variety of custom tasks, not just double-clicking. Sadly that ship sailed a very long time ago.
Let's also think, what new person, who isn't big into computers, wants to constantly download mods and patches and this and that for different aspects of the game. 1 DL is all it should be, period. If I got a new game and had to do all of this, I'd be out before it launched.
"Do all of what exactly?
Oh sorry. Are the people maintaining you free server and producing your free game not working fast enough for you in their spare time after they get home from work?
Development doesn't happen instantly, but yes we are working to make that simpler."
I apologize if that makes me sound ungrateful and, as I will reiterate, I do very much appreciate all the work everyone does on the technical side of things. It was just input as to barriers of getting new people into the game. Take the personal emotion out of your answer and I ask, do you agree with me though? Sorry if my initial comment was insensitive to everyone's hard work.
Absolutely I agree with the general sentiment you are expressing, if not the way you expressed it.
But you need to remember that developing anything new is a challenge, and needs to be done outside of the normal scheme of things, simply because it is new - therefore it isn't already there.
Believe it or not, people like me try our damndest to make it as simple as possible for people like you to install things. Unfortunately there are also other people who are working hard to make stuff install on your computer that you DON'T want, so the OS manufacturers have to keep changing the rules to make it as difficult as possible for anything to be installed on your system, and on and on it goes.
BTW This is exactly
why I created the plugin framework. Once the framework itself is installed (or included in the next combat release) then any new additions to the game can be easily added without having to worry about installing and testing it on 5 or 6 different platforms or whatever.... and this can mean many many cool things besides contrversial in-game mods.
But yes I am hoping that the plugin framework can be integrated into the main combat package so that people less geeky than me can have easy access to it.
Also, just curious, how many top of players, or even players that would be considered good, at GOW, support this? I've seen 0 so far. I wonder if there is a reason for that....
"Oooo the "top" players.... Wait just let me sit back and be impressed for a minute...... Wow.
Really mate. The "top" players can still sit around playing each other on gow ef and banning newbs on the original version as much as they like. It's ok, none of this needs to interrupt the eternal circle-jerk, if that's what you're into."
Your responses should be logical vs emotional as this is more of a business type scenario. Are many of them assholes, sure, they even know it. But they know the game better than me or you do from a game play standpoint and their experience and skills are a value to the game. Nobody wants to watch a noob game but everyone from new-great want to watch a real good game.
I guess you would have to think of it like this though. Do you want to continuously play a game that is ruined by lessor skilled players where you are constantly doubled or tripled with nobody giving any assistance? It gets old pretty quickly. (partly why ppl smurf) I do think everything should have some sort of give and take (donate a few games to playing with everyone) but at the same time, with people's limited time and game play, they want to play good games that are fun. Not hold a newcomer's hand and diminish their own fun. Some people are here to play and have fun ONLY, not to forward the community and they are okay with the day it comes to an end. That is something that needs to be accepted too. It's just a game to some people.
Respectfully, I disagree. "They" do not know the game better, they know how to exploit weaknesses in their opponents strategies inside a VERY limited subset of the game better.
I have been playing this game since the pre-release 3 level demo came out. I'm not a classic/ef pro but I can assure you that I have taught a few dedicated ef players things about this game that they never knew existed, and I have learned things about if from people who I never expected to.
This server was founded by people who thought GOW/EF was the pinnacle of WC2 and they have continued to tell each other this and believe it from each other. Actually there used to be tens of tousands of players who loved the game but couldn't give a tinker's cuss about that whole scene. I know, I was one of them - kind of still am although I play some gow these days out of boredom and lack of other options.
I honestly think that this very narrow focus and the arrogant "pro" attitude that goes with it has been, and continues to be, the single most detrimental thing to the health of the community as a whole. No, those people do not know the game better, that cliquey little scene is not "The Game". They do not own it any more than chop players, paintball players, the water map guys, free players or anyone else.
The one thing I absolutely know is your "pro" mentality is much, much worse that my chopping progress bars could ever be.
and apparantly it gets old either way, because we are all looking for players and hosts more and more often.... Like I've said before: noobs do not ruin the game, lack of noobs KILLS the game.
I'm simply trying to maintain the integrity of the game with my opinion. When you say "a line showing up chopping progress" and diminish it, it really does demonstrate to me that you do not actually understand/underestimate the impact it will have.
No I really do understand it, much better than you do, because you have never even tried it. Your condecention in that statement only highlights your ignorance in suggesting that just because I have not spent the last 20 years honing my reflexes and strategies around a single style of gameplay that somehow I do not understand game mechanics every bit as well as you do.Just imagine they joy your little neurons will feel when they get to make just a couple of new pathways in that dusty old tumor we all have labeled "Warcraft II"