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anti-capitalism thread 104921  1536

Death Knight Posts: 3168 Karma: +118/-12 *********

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Re: anti-capitalism thread
« Reply #180 on: June 26, 2015, 03:46:45 PM »
So he is doing all this good, and then bringing in a comfortable wage for his family.

Lmfao. If you're not trolling you are insanely stupid.
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Re: anti-capitalism thread
« Reply #181 on: June 26, 2015, 03:51:19 PM »
You act like it's not a job and that your typical landlord just sits around collecting checks. That couldn't be further from the truth.

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Re: anti-capitalism thread
« Reply #182 on: June 26, 2015, 03:53:28 PM »
You act like it's not a job and that your typical landlord just sits around collecting checks. That couldn't be further from the truth.



They essentially do. Any services they provide for the tenant are only provided to the extent that they produce a profit. Renting property to people and collecting money in return is not an act of charity you retard.
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Re: anti-capitalism thread
« Reply #183 on: June 26, 2015, 04:04:40 PM »
You are taking my argument, the exception, and consistently throwing it in with the rule so that you have a mountable defense. It's easy to take out the key components to someones argument (below market rents + excess profits to good causes + understanding that this act is a temporary treatment to some of the immediately hurting people while capitalism exists) and then shut them down.

You're essentially saying

"Donates the excess wealth + provides greatly discounted housing + Makes a reasonable/fair amount while doing so = worse than living for yourself and helping nobody and effectively making around the same amount of money."

Yeah, I am the insanely stupid one, right...

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Re: anti-capitalism thread
« Reply #184 on: June 26, 2015, 04:22:06 PM »
You are taking my argument, the exception, and consistently throwing it in with the rule so that you have a mountable defense.

No I'm not, all the examples you're using are people who make a profit through exploitation, even the good ones do. If you want to make an example of someone who makes a large amount of money and then literally gives so much away to the point that they cannot be considered wealthy, that is 1) not how wealthy people in the real world actually behave and 2) irrelevant because then they wouldn't be wealthy anyway.

Your "exception" is also not even substantiated to exist in the real world. When asked for evidence, you said you did not have any, and asked us to use our "imagination." This says much about how much of your argument is based on actual real world circumstances.

It's easy to take out the key components to someones argument (below market rents

What does "Below market" mean in this example specifically? Are they still profitable, just below the market rate? Or are they actually taking a loss on the rent? If they are taking a loss, aren't they less a "landlord" or capitalist and more of a charitable organization? If they are still profitable, nothing about my argument changes: This individual produces a profit through exploitation. The fact that some portion of that profit goes to what you consider a "good cause" (not even getting into whether what you consider a "good cause" actually is such) does not change the fact of the exploitation used to obtain it. If I am a Southern plantation owner who owns hundreds of slaves and I donate 30%, 50%, even 90% of the profit I make to local charitable organizations, it does not change the fact that I am a slaveholder.

+ excess profits to good causes

"Excess profits" meaning what, exactly? Are you implying this hypothetical landlord only keeps the bare minimum he needs to live for himself, while donating the rest? I find that somewhat hard to believe. Does "excess profits" just mean he keeps enough profit to afford a typical bourgeois or petit-bourgeois standard of living? In the latter case, the person is living lavishly off of exploitation, the fact that they could live even more lavishly if they were an even bigger piece of shit is not a point in their favor.

Also, charity is not even a "good cause" necessarily. Without getting into the problems of specific charities or typical administrative problems with corruption and such, alleviating social ills through charity is a smokescreen that allows people to say charity is the best solution, or at least an adequate solution, and that the huge social reforms needed to bring about a just society are not actually needed.

+ understanding that this act is a temporary treatment to some of the immediately hurting people while capitalism exists)

It is? Why? What are these people doing to bring about the end of capitalism? Nothing, they're perpetuating it.

"Donates the excess wealth + provides greatly discounted housing + Makes a reasonable/fair amount while doing so = worse than living for yourself and helping nobody and effectively making around the same amount of money."

You left out the exploitation part. To go back to the slaveholder example, using your logic, a slaveholder who donates wealth to charitable organizations is a better person than me for the charity that he or she does. The exploitation, whether it is the exploitation of wage labor or slavery, does not seem to factor in for you when determining the moral worth of a person. Well, it probably would for slavery, because you have been conditioned and indoctrinated to see slavery as bad (accurately), just as you have been conditioned and indoctrinated to see capitalist exploitation as, at worst, not nearly as bad as slavery and generally socially acceptable, and at best, desirable.

Yeah, I am the insanely stupid one, right...

Yes, right, you half assed wannabe intellectual retard.
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Re: anti-capitalism thread
« Reply #185 on: June 26, 2015, 04:53:36 PM »
You say they're exploiting to some extent, as if every job isn't, probably including yours, exploiting someone somehow. The question is how excessive is it, and in the case of my example it's extremely minimal.

Also, I never made an example that suggests they give so much away they aren't wealthy. They are wealthy because the good will means of production or land that they own, is worth a substantial amount on the open market to your typical rich folk. For example, the real estate examples where they give away 90% of what they make, yes if that were the end of the story they wouldn't be wealthy, but it's not. The real estate that they own is worth tens of millions. So obviously in this case you're wrong, as you're not considering that someone can give away the vast majority of their income, while still retaining most of their assets (making them wealthy), to continue generating more income to give away.

I notice that you're twisting my words. I previously clarified that when I said I don't have any real life examples, I was saying I don't PERSONALLY know the stories of anyone in how they acquired their initial capital, and then I provided plenty of non-personal examples on a web, a website that has hundreds if not thousand examples of how people acquired their wealth - and almost every single one involves the exact example I gave.

So yeah, go to the website I mentioned - literally hundreds (at minimum) of examples for you.

As for if they're profitable or not, yes, they are. So you say they exploit people by providing discounted rents + giving away the excess + working to manage the real estate, yet you haven't clarified where the exploitation is in excess to your average 9-5 job.

Of course they're going to make a profit, they need to survive - and they are providing a service. They're effectively managing housing at this point and thats a job. If they didn't make 40-80k (depending what part of country you are in), they wouldn't be able to provide for their family.

Giving away "excess profits" means they're giving away enough to the point where their income is at or around average for their market after all donations - this obviously varies by area.

This isn't a hypothetical example, the pastor I mentioned is a real person who does such. it's not known to his congregation, but everyone a part of the churches staff/ministry is well aware that he pastors for $1/yr and donates so much of the profits from his real estate income that he ends up bringing home less than the average family does in his city.

And yes, I understand that it's very important to decide where you put your money, and that "charity" isn't always the right course of action or a good cause. But we aren't talking about that aspect.
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Re: anti-capitalism thread
« Reply #186 on: June 26, 2015, 04:54:26 PM »
ГУЛАГ
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Re: anti-capitalism thread
« Reply #187 on: June 26, 2015, 05:24:29 PM »
You say they're exploiting to some extent, as if every job isn't, probably including yours, exploiting someone somehow. The question is how excessive is it, and in the case of my example it's extremely minimal.

No it's not. They literally make their livelihood from exploitation. Charity doesn't nullifly exploitation, exploitation and charity are not matter and antimatter. While I myself am the beneficiary of exploitation of various sorts, for example, the exploitation of the workers who produce cheap products for me and other first worlders, I do not make a living through exploiting others. In fact, I am exploited by my employer and my livelihood comes from the wage I am given by my employer, which is a small fraction of the actual value I produce for said employer.

Also, I never made an example that suggests they give so much away they aren't wealthy. They are wealthy because the good will means of production or land that they own, is worth a substantial amount on the open market to your typical rich folk.

That's what I thought, I was bringing up "so much to charity they are no longer to wealthy" because that is the only way the situation you are describing can even come close to not being exploitative, and even then it probably would be. But it's a nonsense scenario so discussing it does not matter. In this situation, these people make an excessive amount of wealth, more than the majority of people who have lived on the planet throughout history, the vast vast majority, could never even dream of obtaining a fraction of themselves. But they are good people because a small fraction of that goes to a "good cause" while they continue to live better than even the most decadent monarchs of past eras? Insanely stupid.

I notice that you're twisting my words. I previously clarified that when I said I don't have any real life examples, I was saying I don't PERSONALLY know the stories of anyone in how they acquired their initial capital, and then I provided plenty of non-personal examples on a web, a website that has hundreds if not thousand examples of how people acquired their wealth - and almost every single one involves the exact example I gave.

Lol yeah let me go to some propaganda site for rich people to have your point proven to me. Not that it matters - my argument applies equally to all these people, down to the most ultra-charitable example you can find. You lack a basic understanding of exploitation and how capitalism functions.

As for if they're profitable or not, yes, they are. So you say they exploit people by providing discounted rents + giving away the excess + working to manage the real estate, yet you haven't clarified where the exploitation is in excess to your average 9-5 job.

Because they use their control of property to profit off of people's need for shelter. The necessity of shelter is withheld from individuals simply because they cannot pay, not because the shelter is not available to them. That is exploitation.

Of course they're going to make a profit, they need to survive - and they are providing a service. They're effectively managing housing at this point and thats a job. If they didn't make 40-80k (depending what part of country you are in), they wouldn't be able to provide for their family.

Yeah all those landlords who make millions and give it all away except for 40-80k a year. Lmfao.

Also, you just admitted this is not charity, it is solely an act driven by profit. Moreover, again, an essential life need is withheld for the pursuit of profit. This is exploitation. If you were starving and I had an abundance of food and you had no money, and I made you pay me for bread, you would think this is a moral outrage. But because you are indoctrinated in the logic of liberal capitalism, you find it acceptable in the macro sense.

Giving away "excess profits" means they're giving away enough to the point where their income is at or around average for their market after all donations - this obviously varies by area.

40k-80k is "around average?" Compared to what? Lmfao. How many people in China do you think make 40k? Oh yeah, you're just talking about the US, as if you can meaningfully separate the two in a global capitalist system.

This isn't a hypothetical example, the pastor I mentioned is a real person who does such. it's not known to his congregation, but everyone a part of the churches staff/ministry is well aware that he pastors for $1/yr and donates so much of the profits from his real estate income that he ends up bringing home less than the average family does in his city.

I don't believe you, and even if you were right, he's still a rent seeking parasite.
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Re: anti-capitalism thread
« Reply #188 on: July 02, 2015, 04:39:43 PM »
exploitative, benefits only rich wealthy land owners, demonizes the poor at the same time creates poverty,  why is there not more anger towards our flawed, moronic system?
Capitalism is an economic system which is based off of free trade. Under capitalism the government typically has a small role in personal business and yes there are greedy large corporations those corporations employ thousands maybe millions of people world wide; and if you are meaning towards the United States specifically Capitalism's basis on free trade and little government interference goes with American ideals of liberty freedom and the pursuit of happiness. Not to mention the Government has welfare and other programs for the poor. while yes there are flaws in the system as there are flaws with any human system, those flaws mainly do include the greediness of large corporations I find capitalism to be a good enough system because many of the poor people often live in poverty because they don't get off their asses and get a job.
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Re: anti-capitalism thread
« Reply #189 on: July 02, 2015, 04:42:00 PM »
exploitative, benefits only rich wealthy land owners, demonizes the poor at the same time creates poverty,  why is there not more anger towards our flawed, moronic system?
Capitalism is an economic system which is based off of free trade. Under capitalism the government typically has a small role in personal business and yes there are greedy large corporations those corporations employ thousands maybe millions of people world wide; and if you are meaning towards the United States specifically Capitalism's basis on free trade and little government interference goes with American ideals of liberty freedom and the pursuit of happiness. Not to mention the Government has welfare and other programs for the poor. while yes there are flaws in the system as there are flaws with any human system, those flaws mainly do include the greediness of large corporations I find capitalism to be a good enough system because many of the poor people often live in poverty because they don't get off their asses and get a job.

You're retarded.
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Re: anti-capitalism thread
« Reply #190 on: July 02, 2015, 04:44:11 PM »
exploitative, benefits only rich wealthy land owners, demonizes the poor at the same time creates poverty,  why is there not more anger towards our flawed, moronic system?
Capitalism is an economic system which is based off of free trade. Under capitalism the government typically has a small role in personal business and yes there are greedy large corporations those corporations employ thousands maybe millions of people world wide; and if you are meaning towards the United States specifically Capitalism's basis on free trade and little government interference goes with American ideals of liberty freedom and the pursuit of happiness. Not to mention the Government has welfare and other programs for the poor. while yes there are flaws in the system as there are flaws with any human system, those flaws mainly do include the greediness of large corporations I find capitalism to be a good enough system because many of the poor people often live in poverty because they don't get off their asses and get a job.

You're retarded.
so you couldn't think of a counter argument so you just insult me?
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Re: anti-capitalism thread
« Reply #191 on: July 02, 2015, 04:45:29 PM »
Yeah, there's no way I can think of a counter argument to "poor people just don't want to work," it couldn't possibly be you're too much of an idiot to be worth the time.
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Re: anti-capitalism thread
« Reply #192 on: July 02, 2015, 04:46:56 PM »
"Capitalism is a system based off of free trade" lol what the fuck is this fucking nonsense, you can't define a system by using propaganda terms that only make sense within that system
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Re: anti-capitalism thread
« Reply #193 on: July 02, 2015, 04:49:15 PM »
Quote
Capitalism's basis on free trade and little government interference goes with American ideals of liberty freedom and the pursuit of happiness
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Re: anti-capitalism thread
« Reply #194 on: July 02, 2015, 04:50:55 PM »
Nazism's basis of antisemitism and eternal war goes with fascist ideals of securing a future for white children.