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anti-capitalism thread 104982  1536

Death Knight Posts: 3442 Karma: +63/-14 *********

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Re: anti-capitalism thread
« Reply #210 on: July 13, 2015, 12:12:24 AM »
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Re: anti-capitalism thread
« Reply #211 on: July 14, 2015, 11:00:04 PM »
You say they're exploiting to some extent, as if every job isn't, probably including yours, exploiting someone somehow. The question is how excessive is it, and in the case of my example it's extremely minimal.

No it's not. They literally make their livelihood from exploitation. Charity doesn't nullifly exploitation, exploitation and charity are not matter and antimatter. While I myself am the beneficiary of exploitation of various sorts, for example, the exploitation of the workers who produce cheap products for me and other first worlders, I do not make a living through exploiting others. In fact, I am exploited by my employer and my livelihood comes from the wage I am given by my employer, which is a small fraction of the actual value I produce for said employer.

Also, I never made an example that suggests they give so much away they aren't wealthy. They are wealthy because the good will means of production or land that they own, is worth a substantial amount on the open market to your typical rich folk.

That's what I thought, I was bringing up "so much to charity they are no longer to wealthy" because that is the only way the situation you are describing can even come close to not being exploitative, and even then it probably would be. But it's a nonsense scenario so discussing it does not matter. In this situation, these people make an excessive amount of wealth, more than the majority of people who have lived on the planet throughout history, the vast vast majority, could never even dream of obtaining a fraction of themselves. But they are good people because a small fraction of that goes to a "good cause" while they continue to live better than even the most decadent monarchs of past eras? Insanely stupid.

I notice that you're twisting my words. I previously clarified that when I said I don't have any real life examples, I was saying I don't PERSONALLY know the stories of anyone in how they acquired their initial capital, and then I provided plenty of non-personal examples on a web, a website that has hundreds if not thousand examples of how people acquired their wealth - and almost every single one involves the exact example I gave.

Lol yeah let me go to some propaganda site for rich people to have your point proven to me. Not that it matters - my argument applies equally to all these people, down to the most ultra-charitable example you can find. You lack a basic understanding of exploitation and how capitalism functions.

As for if they're profitable or not, yes, they are. So you say they exploit people by providing discounted rents + giving away the excess + working to manage the real estate, yet you haven't clarified where the exploitation is in excess to your average 9-5 job.

Because they use their control of property to profit off of people's need for shelter. The necessity of shelter is withheld from individuals simply because they cannot pay, not because the shelter is not available to them. That is exploitation.

Of course they're going to make a profit, they need to survive - and they are providing a service. They're effectively managing housing at this point and thats a job. If they didn't make 40-80k (depending what part of country you are in), they wouldn't be able to provide for their family.

Yeah all those landlords who make millions and give it all away except for 40-80k a year. Lmfao.

Also, you just admitted this is not charity, it is solely an act driven by profit. Moreover, again, an essential life need is withheld for the pursuit of profit. This is exploitation. If you were starving and I had an abundance of food and you had no money, and I made you pay me for bread, you would think this is a moral outrage. But because you are indoctrinated in the logic of liberal capitalism, you find it acceptable in the macro sense.

Giving away "excess profits" means they're giving away enough to the point where their income is at or around average for their market after all donations - this obviously varies by area.

40k-80k is "around average?" Compared to what? Lmfao. How many people in China do you think make 40k? Oh yeah, you're just talking about the US, as if you can meaningfully separate the two in a global capitalist system.

This isn't a hypothetical example, the pastor I mentioned is a real person who does such. it's not known to his congregation, but everyone a part of the churches staff/ministry is well aware that he pastors for $1/yr and donates so much of the profits from his real estate income that he ends up bringing home less than the average family does in his city.

I don't believe you, and even if you were right, he's still a rent seeking parasite.

GN - I don't understand what you're trying to argue with me about. We actually agree on almost everything. But you bringing up that the average world income < average us income, or bringing up that biggerpockets.com is full of propaganda doesn't combat or even address the points I was actually trying to make. Also, everytime I provide an example about someone who gives away the vast majority of their profits, or I mention that they have lots of $/capital investments to produce such profits (which is essential in almost every vocation in a capitalist society, thus my examples wouldn't even work without it), you then interpret it as "ohh scumbag who gives away a small portion of his profits," which is clearly not what I am saying.

As for everything else, you basically just talked about how rent seeking is exploitation. I don't disagree. You also keep suggesting I don't understand capitalism on a macro level or how it functions in general. There's no where you can derive such without continuing to misinterpret what I am saying.


also whether you believe that example or not is irrelevant. my whole point is not about trying to prove that such characters exist.

At the end of the day, we basically see eye to eye on everything except maybe this one thing - I am okay with a capitalist who focuses on driving profits so long as they give the VAST MAJORITY of it back. I rented for years, and although I was exploited for profits, my life was awesome and I had everything I needed + 100x that. So, If I had a landlord who provided me housing and then gave away a huge chunk of his profits to appropriate causes, then I would be very ok with that. I understand as a whole that this doesn't help to fix the problem at large, which is to kill off capitalism. But because capitalism isn't going anywhere soon, then I basically see this as a necessary evil. Obviously I am speaking very generally, and if I took many other things into account such as certain landlords who provide housing to very low income individuals and suck them dry, then I would look at these cases very different. Like I said though, my life as a renter was more than great, and so for every renter that lived by the means that I did when I rented, I am ok with a capitalist taking money from them to give to the people who are truly suffering. I'm very okay with that.

If you disagree with this, that's fine - I am definitely not going to argue it though. I am under the impression that you're more concerned with discussing/arguing/contemplating such topics, as opposed to proactively doing something to help those. Perhaps I am wrong though, I don't know you. You just seem to get off being an asshole, and arguing about it. As for myself, I aspire to be like the people in the examples I provided, and I aspire and continue to strive to be big apart of new and established nonprofit organizations that go out and help those who going through very real pains due to the lack of necessities such as food, medicine, shelter, etc. If it makes me a bad person because I am exploiting those with such first world problems like having to rent properties that have ac, heating, clean carpets, multiple bathrooms and running water (hot, warm & cold) so that I can use that money to provide to people going through much worse, then so be it. I am okay with that opinion, and I respect it. Unfortunately, I don't know a better way.

What I don't get is why you stand behind such noble causes, but yet come across as an asshole who tries to abuse and harass people who you feel to be beneath you in virtue/ideals/beliefs/intellect, etc. You appear to be a pretty smart person, if your character matched your values then you seem like a person who could do a lot of good, and probably find a way to do it without hurting others too much if at all. But maybe you already are doing such, what do I know.

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Re: anti-capitalism thread
« Reply #212 on: July 14, 2015, 11:22:40 PM »
Quote
At the end of the day, we basically see eye to eye on everything except maybe this one thing - I am okay with a capitalist who focuses on driving profits so long as they give the VAST MAJORITY of it back.

he wouldn't be a capitalist anymore if he did that. because that idea of giving profits back to the labour is  completely contradictory  to capitalist ideology.
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Re: anti-capitalism thread
« Reply #213 on: July 14, 2015, 11:28:17 PM »
That's a good point, although arguable depending on a few variables.

Are you considering that although he may not be a capitalist from the income perspective, he is in the sense that he owns/controls the land/industry/means of production that afford him that income, which is like 5-10-20x in valuewhat he makes per year?
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Re: anti-capitalism thread
« Reply #214 on: July 15, 2015, 09:14:55 AM »
jon is right. a capitalist can't just give away the vast majority of their profit, because profit is required to maintain a capitalist enterprise. if your organization doesn't make a profit, or if it does make a profit but invests the majority of the profit outside of the actual organization, then it ceases to function and maintain itself as a capitalist enterprise and becomes a charity or nonprofit of some kind. which is still beholden to capitalist markets and politics in dispensing its services, so its not a complete break from capitalism anyway

That's a good point, although arguable depending on a few variables.

Are you considering that although he may not be a capitalist from the income perspective, he is in the sense that he owns/controls the land/industry/means of production that afford him that income, which is like 5-10-20x in valuewhat he makes per year?

I have no clue why you're making distinctions between "income" and the wealth obtained through the ownership of property. No property owner just gives away all their "income" and lives a meager monk like existence while sitting on valuable property.
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Re: anti-capitalism thread
« Reply #215 on: July 15, 2015, 09:24:57 AM »
At the end of the day, we basically see eye to eye on everything except maybe this one thing - I am okay with a capitalist who focuses on driving profits so long as they give the VAST MAJORITY of it back. I rented for years, and although I was exploited for profits, my life was awesome and I had everything I needed + 100x that. So, If I had a landlord who provided me housing and then gave away a huge chunk of his profits to appropriate causes, then I would be very ok with that.

But if your housing is only provided at the cost of maintenance with no profit for the property owner then that's not a capitalist. If there is a profit earned, but it is given away to charity, the exploitative relationship is still there, only the "capitalist" for some reason that makes no sense is taking actions self-destructive to his or her enterprise. Even charities and NGO's under capitalism have to invest in their own organizations to maintain and expand themselves, the idea that you can simultaneously give the "majority" of profits to charity while at the same time running an effective organization in a capitalist economy is incoherent.

I understand as a whole that this doesn't help to fix the problem at large, which is to kill off capitalism. But because capitalism isn't going anywhere soon, then I basically see this as a necessary evil.

Actually the final crisis of capitalism is fast approaching and it is up to us to ensure that it is communism, and not fascism, that emerges from the ruins of the old order.

Obviously I am speaking very generally, and if I took many other things into account such as certain landlords who provide housing to very low income individuals and suck them dry, then I would look at these cases very different. Like I said though, my life as a renter was more than great, and so for every renter that lived by the means that I did when I rented, I am ok with a capitalist taking money from them to give to the people who are truly suffering. I'm very okay with that.

...

 As for myself, I aspire to be like the people in the examples I provided, and I aspire and continue to strive to be big apart of new and established nonprofit organizations that go out and help those who going through very real pains due to the lack of necessities such as food, medicine, shelter, etc. If it makes me a bad person because I am exploiting those with such first world problems like having to rent properties that have ac, heating, clean carpets, multiple bathrooms and running water (hot, warm & cold) so that I can use that money to provide to people going through much worse, then so be it.

It's pretty silly to act like either you or the landlord in question is making some kind of great sacrifice by profiting from exploitation and then giving off the proceeds to "charity," when both you and your landlord's lifestyles are maintained by a system of global exploitation far more severe and brutal than the exploitation that occurs between you and your landlord. This is the problem with discussing class and capitalism on a strictly national level, particularly in developed countries. Every debate occurs within the context of bourgeois morality and ideology. Exploitation and profit is okay, because I invest a lot of those profits back into charities! Nevermind that you are an active participant in the very system that is destroying the planet and keeps the vast majority of its people enslaved.

What I don't get is why you stand behind such noble causes, but yet come across as an asshole who tries to abuse and harass people who you feel to be beneath you in virtue/ideals/beliefs/intellect, etc. You appear to be a pretty smart person, if your character matched your values then you seem like a person who could do a lot of good, and probably find a way to do it without hurting others too much if at all. But maybe you already are doing such, what do I know.



What do you know indeed.
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Re: anti-capitalism thread
« Reply #216 on: July 15, 2015, 11:33:46 AM »
The housing is provided with some profit and probably a bit more to live off of than is needed. And yes, the exploitation is still prevalent because of that. Also, I actually am not acting like my landlord or I are making a great sacrifice in that example. Even if the excess/majority of profits are donated by the landlord, and although it may have required some work/risk to get his real estate portfolio that large, sacrifice is still not the right word. In fact, I don't even see it as some "uber good person" thing to do really by any means. I have some respect for it myself, and there is a form of nobility in it in my opinion, but I'm definitely not thinking the landlord is some saint. I'm just good with the fact that hes at least not a complete scumbag like 99% of the elites are. I am as well aware that the worst forms of exploitation from the system are more often than not on a global level and not so much in the states, even though at home it's full of unjust exploitation on a large scale itself.

I agree with basically everything you said, except for the idea that an organization can't give away the majority of their profits and continue to maintain. It definitely proves much more difficult of course. Either way though, as an extreme example: A landlord, if he so choose, could not only maintain but actually continue to expand his/her portfolio while donating not only the vast majority of his cash flow, but he can actually continue to grow it while donating 100% of it. I highly doubt this is true for most ventures, and that real estate is an exception to the rule - but it does prove there are some exceptions. Leverage, at least how it works in real estate, is a game changer in what you can do with a business. The concept is pretty simple, and has been proven, that you expand your total equity base throughout your portfolio and then use that equity base to get more leverage on more properties, and your equity base continues to expand at a more rapid rate the more you acquire. You can continue to leverage more and more and more while donating 100% of the cash in hand/cash flow or provide extremely cheap housing. Of course, I doubt anyone actually does this.
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Re: anti-capitalism thread
« Reply #217 on: July 15, 2015, 11:56:21 AM »
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Re: anti-capitalism thread
« Reply #218 on: July 15, 2015, 02:02:52 PM »
The housing is provided with some profit and probably a bit more to live off of than is needed. And yes, the exploitation is still prevalent because of that. Also, I actually am not acting like my landlord or I are making a great sacrifice in that example. Even if the excess/majority of profits are donated by the landlord, and although it may have required some work/risk to get his real estate portfolio that large, sacrifice is still not the right word. In fact, I don't even see it as some "uber good person" thing to do really by any means. I have some respect for it myself, and there is a form of nobility in it in my opinion, but I'm definitely not thinking the landlord is some saint. I'm just good with the fact that hes at least not a complete scumbag like 99% of the elites are. I am as well aware that the worst forms of exploitation from the system are more often than not on a global level and not so much in the states, even though at home it's full of unjust exploitation on a large scale itself.

Okay, so the hypothetical charity landlord isn't quite as bad a person as a multi-billion dollar net worth banker and has less effect in maintaining and expanding monopoly capitalism. That's a really obvious conclusion that no one disagrees with though, and the amount of energy you spend on trying to convince people that there are some "good capitalists" is pretty similar to me to people who go to ridiculous lengths to acknowledge that there's "some" good cops, "some" good troops, or "some" good Nazis.
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Re: anti-capitalism thread
« Reply #219 on: July 15, 2015, 02:09:18 PM »




rofl...


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Re: anti-capitalism thread
« Reply #220 on: July 15, 2015, 03:09:33 PM »
The housing is provided with some profit and probably a bit more to live off of than is needed. And yes, the exploitation is still prevalent because of that. Also, I actually am not acting like my landlord or I are making a great sacrifice in that example. Even if the excess/majority of profits are donated by the landlord, and although it may have required some work/risk to get his real estate portfolio that large, sacrifice is still not the right word. In fact, I don't even see it as some "uber good person" thing to do really by any means. I have some respect for it myself, and there is a form of nobility in it in my opinion, but I'm definitely not thinking the landlord is some saint. I'm just good with the fact that hes at least not a complete scumbag like 99% of the elites are. I am as well aware that the worst forms of exploitation from the system are more often than not on a global level and not so much in the states, even though at home it's full of unjust exploitation on a large scale itself.

Okay, so the hypothetical charity landlord isn't quite as bad a person as a multi-billion dollar net worth banker and has less effect in maintaining and expanding monopoly capitalism. That's a really obvious conclusion that no one disagrees with though, and the amount of energy you spend on trying to convince people that there are some "good capitalists" is pretty similar to me to people who go to ridiculous lengths to acknowledge that there's "some" good cops, "some" good troops, or "some" good Nazis.

It's a matter of opinion, of course. However, yeah I think there are "some" good capitalists. There are also "some" good everyday american's who are still shitting on those levels below them on the bird stand. But I am not talking about whether there are such or not, I am instead saying if one were to be such a capitalist, I would have respect for them myself. Again though, I wouldn't go around suggesting they're a saint, but yeah I think they're doing some moderate good - that is my opinion.

To be fair though, I should disclose that the reason I picked landlords as an example is because I associate with many local ones often, and I am one myself. I own two real estate investment companies (one which holds a moderate rental portfolio) and head up a real estate solutions company as well. So, although my views were practically the same even back when I was in college and renting, I do question the level of my own bias.

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Re: anti-capitalism thread
« Reply #221 on: July 15, 2015, 03:13:31 PM »
It's a matter of opinion, of course. However, yeah I think there are "some" good capitalists. There are also "some" good everyday american's who are still shitting on those levels below them on the bird stand. But I am not talking about whether there are such or not, I am instead saying if one were to be such a capitalist, I would have respect for them myself. Again though, I wouldn't go around suggesting they're a saint, but yeah I think they're doing some moderate good - that is my opinion.

Okay, but "you're better than the rest of the guards here at the death camp" is not very worthwhile praise.

To be fair though, I should disclose that the reason I picked landlords as an example is because I associate with many local ones often, and I am one myself. I own two real estate investment companies (one which holds a moderate rental portfolio) and head up a real estate solutions company as well. So, although my views were practically the same even back when I was in college and renting, I do question the level of my own bias.

Wow, shocking, the landlord defends landlordism and exploitation. It sounds to me like you are mostly just looking for absolution yourself and ways to justify your own behavior. If it's any consolation you will probably just naturally become a Republican in a few years at this rate and then you won't have to worry about it anymore.
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Re: anti-capitalism thread
« Reply #222 on: July 15, 2015, 03:21:32 PM »
It's a matter of opinion, of course. However, yeah I think there are "some" good capitalists. There are also "some" good everyday american's who are still shitting on those levels below them on the bird stand. But I am not talking about whether there are such or not, I am instead saying if one were to be such a capitalist, I would have respect for them myself. Again though, I wouldn't go around suggesting they're a saint, but yeah I think they're doing some moderate good - that is my opinion.

Okay, but "you're better than the rest of the guards here at the death camp" is not very worthwhile praise.

To be fair though, I should disclose that the reason I picked landlords as an example is because I associate with many local ones often, and I am one myself. I own two real estate investment companies (one which holds a moderate rental portfolio) and head up a real estate solutions company as well. So, although my views were practically the same even back when I was in college and renting, I do question the level of my own bias.

Wow, shocking, the landlord defends landlordism and exploitation. It sounds to me like you are mostly just looking for absolution yourself and ways to justify your own behavior. If it's any consolation you will probably just naturally become a Republican in a few years at this rate and then you won't have to worry about it anymore.


A few posts ago you were suggesting I couldn't see capitalism from the outside, now I'm aware of such to the point that I need to try to justify it... hmm...

If the system ever crumbles and they come knocking on my door demanding I give up deed/title and assets, then I will gladly give it all up without hesitation - until then, or until I know of a better way, then I aspire to be like those people I mentioned in such examples, and so maybe you could say I am justifying my aspirations, but I am not. I honestly don't feel I need to.
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Re: anti-capitalism thread
« Reply #223 on: July 15, 2015, 03:25:18 PM »
A few posts ago you were suggesting I couldn't see capitalism from the outside, now I'm aware of such to the point that I need to try to justify it... hmm...

No, not really, I didn't claim that your need to justify it came from any sort of great awareness about what capitalism is and how it actually functions. I think instead that you, like many others, are intuitively aware of the injustice of your very existence on some level, which I don't think requires a deep awareness of political economy. Because you have this awareness you seek rationalizations and excuses to justify your position and actions. To make an example, many people who make the argument that sweatshops are a net good are likely not educated in the science of Marxism and do not understand the deeper, scientific reasons why they are bad. But they understand sweatshops are bad on a visceral, intuitive moral level, and so they feel some need to justify an obvious injustice.

until then, or until I know of a better way, then I aspire to be like those people I mentioned in such examples, and so maybe you could say I am justifying my aspirations, but I am not. I honestly don't feel I need to.

Your posting in this thread implies otherwise.
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Re: anti-capitalism thread
« Reply #224 on: July 15, 2015, 03:35:16 PM »
A few posts ago you were suggesting I couldn't see capitalism from the outside, now I'm aware of such to the point that I need to try to justify it... hmm...

No, not really, I didn't claim that your need to justify it came from any sort of great awareness about what capitalism is and how it actually functions. I think instead that you, like many others, are intuitively aware of the injustice of your very existence on some level, which I don't think requires a deep awareness of political economy. Because you have this awareness you seek rationalizations and excuses to justify your position and actions. To make an example, many people who make the argument that sweatshops are a net good are likely not educated in the science of Marxism and do not understand the deeper, scientific reasons why they are bad. But they understand sweatshops are bad on a visceral, intuitive moral level, and so they feel some need to justify an obvious injustice.

until then, or until I know of a better way, then I aspire to be like those people I mentioned in such examples, and so maybe you could say I am justifying my aspirations, but I am not. I honestly don't feel I need to.

Your posting in this thread implies otherwise.

Fair enough. Although, I am not in the category of people would see sweatshops as a net good.

As for my posts implying otherwise. They definitely don't imply/conclude any such thing. Although it's a possibly conclusion, it cannot be concluded - there are many other motivations as to why I would post. I am already completely content with my actions, I don't need to justify them. On another note, I'm not saying that I am right and my way is right I am always open to hear other peoples side, but looking for justification is definitely not an incentive for my posting.