Author Topic: 'Murica thread (Nazi Nation)  (Read 230933 times)

Offline CumSavorer4385

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Re: 'Murica thread
« Reply #45 on: May 14, 2015, 09:31:56 PM »
that was my op

I first saw the OP at work so I never watched the video and didn't remember it. Sorry.
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Offline CumSavorer4385

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Re: 'Murica thread
« Reply #46 on: May 14, 2015, 09:33:02 PM »
it's interesting how Washington and other founders  and presidents warned against partisanship, sectionalism and getting involved in foreign wars... basically everything that is modern america . discuss

I don't think it's really that interesting because almost everyone, even extremely partisan and factional politicians, say they're against those things. Also I don't think the US is as politically partisan or factionalized as other countries.
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Offline Rit

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Re: 'Murica thread
« Reply #47 on: May 14, 2015, 09:37:45 PM »
Arguably the majority of the middle class of the US and other developed countries are more educated than the Founding Fathers were, even discounting the various advances in thought that they weren't aware of.

I really have to disagree with this statement when you consider someone like Jefferson who spoke and read multiple languages, had an in-depth understanding of history, and was very talented in a variety of areas.  I think it puts a lot of us to shame when you consider all of the knowledge he possessed.  Not many of the founders were this qualified though, but still received a much better education than our public school system offers us today. 

They lived in a time when education was only for elites, and they were elites, so of course they were educated. But their views were a reflection of their status as elite 18th century slave owning aristocrats and while I would not say they are totally irrelevant today (if for no other reason than a bunch of idiot nationalists think they are) there's certainly no reason to take them as gospel or as more credible than more contemporary thinkers, unless their thought and arguments are actually stronger, and they're not.

I agree with this.  I'm not sure if this was supposed to support the previous sentence though. 

Jefferson is no different than other liberal minded aristocrats of the time - they will ostensibly say they are against nobility and aristocracy but they are not actually, at best they simply support a different kind of aristocracy (in the case of Jefferson and many of his contemporaries, material wealth and property should be the legitimizing basis of the rule of the ruling class rather than noble birth, but they are not opposed to class domination in and of itself, categorically) or at worst are just speaking out of both sides of their mouths. Jefferson personally is well known as one of the biggest hypocrites of his era and its hard to take his warmed over Enlightenment crap seriously when the man literally raped and owned slaves and even enslaved his own children.

Jefferson contradicted himself quite a bit.  Being about 30 years older than Hemings, one can only assume he took advantage of her.  The man owned slaves and yet he worked to abolish the slave trade.  Very conflicted indeed and yet there's plenty there to learn from him, good or bad.

Thanks for giving me more here than in your previous posts.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2015, 09:40:15 PM by Rit »

Offline CumSavorer4385

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Re: 'Murica thread
« Reply #48 on: May 14, 2015, 10:19:29 PM »
I really have to disagree with this statement when you consider someone like Jefferson who spoke and read multiple languages, had an in-depth understanding of history, and was very talented in a variety of areas.  I think it puts a lot of us to shame when you consider all of the knowledge he possessed.  Not many of the founders were this qualified though, but still received a much better education than our public school system offers us today. 

This is pretty much romantic bullshit. Being multilingual isn't unusual in most of the developed world, the US is the exception in that regard. People aren't taught history because its dangerous but its not hard to get a good education in history if you seek it out through public institutions. Education was not nearly what it was then what it is now, the science and art of education has developed immensely in the past few centuries. What is especially relevant is that education is now based in a broader culture and is not a realm dominated by cloistered elites like Jefferson who have little relation to the lives of most people, by that metric alone even the worst aspects of public education in the US are a huge advancement over those times. Saying otherwise is crazy reactionary talk.

Jefferson contradicted himself quite a bit.  Being about 30 years older than Hemings, one can only assume he took advantage of her.  The man owned slaves and yet he worked to abolish the slave trade.  Very conflicted indeed and yet there's plenty there to learn from him, good or bad.

He did not do anything significant to abolish slavery and was quite supportive of the institution overall, particularly later in life he was very adamant that it was a just and necessary institution. I think this is a whitewash.
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Offline tora is a simp bitch for billionaires

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Re: 'Murica thread
« Reply #49 on: May 14, 2015, 11:12:05 PM »


I don't think it's really that interesting because almost everyone, even extremely partisan and factional politicians, say they're against those things. Also I don't think the US is as politically partisan or factionalized as other countries.
any modern politician who claims they're against those things are just parroting the original men who actually meant it. washington kept america neutral during the wars in europe and never advocated for a particular party.

Offline Rit

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Re: 'Murica thread
« Reply #50 on: May 15, 2015, 12:39:33 AM »
I really have to disagree with this statement when you consider someone like Jefferson who spoke and read multiple languages, had an in-depth understanding of history, and was very talented in a variety of areas.  I think it puts a lot of us to shame when you consider all of the knowledge he possessed.  Not many of the founders were this qualified though, but still received a much better education than our public school system offers us today. 

This is pretty much romantic bullshit. Being multilingual isn't unusual in most of the developed world, the US is the exception in that regard. People aren't taught history because its dangerous but its not hard to get a good education in history if you seek it out through public institutions. Education was not nearly what it was then what it is now, the science and art of education has developed immensely in the past few centuries. What is especially relevant is that education is now based in a broader culture and is not a realm dominated by cloistered elites like Jefferson who have little relation to the lives of most people, by that metric alone even the worst aspects of public education in the US are a huge advancement over those times. Saying otherwise is crazy reactionary talk.

Jefferson contradicted himself quite a bit.  Being about 30 years older than Hemings, one can only assume he took advantage of her.  The man owned slaves and yet he worked to abolish the slave trade.  Very conflicted indeed and yet there's plenty there to learn from him, good or bad.

He did not do anything significant to abolish slavery and was quite supportive of the institution overall, particularly later in life he was very adamant that it was a just and necessary institution. I think this is a whitewash.

I'm not sure where you get your information from.  Jefferson criticized Britain for sponsoring the slave trade in the colonies during the revolution.  He even lead Virginia to prohibit the importation of slaves in 1778.  In 1784, he proposed federal legislation to prohibit the slave trade in new territories of the US (which was voted down).  On March 2, 1807 during Jefferson's presidency, he supported and signed an act to prohibit the importation of slaves to the US. These were all steps toward abolishing slavery in the US. 

Before he signed the act in 1807, he said this in his annual message to congress:
"I congratulate you, fellow-citizens, on the approach of the period at which you may interpose your authority constitutionally, to withdraw the citizens of the United States from all further participation in those violations of human rights which have been so long continued on the unoffending inhabitants of Africa, and which the morality, the reputation, and the best interests of our country, have long been eager to proscribe."
« Last Edit: May 15, 2015, 02:39:14 AM by Rit »

Offline CumSavorer4385

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Re: 'Murica thread
« Reply #51 on: May 15, 2015, 08:51:29 AM »
any modern politician who claims they're against those things are just parroting the original men who actually meant it. washington kept america neutral during the wars in europe and never advocated for a particular party.

Yeah and that's lame, he should have supported Revolutionary France.

Also the idea that you can be a "neutral" politician is pretty goofy and stupid and mythological. People like Washington essentially advocate that class interests should be subordinate to national interests which is not only unrealistic and idealist to the point of being delusional but its also an essentially reactionary position.
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Offline CumSavorer4385

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Re: 'Murica thread
« Reply #52 on: May 15, 2015, 08:54:42 AM »
I'm not sure where you get your information from.  Jefferson criticized Britain for sponsoring the slave trade in the colonies during the revolution.  He even lead Virginia to prohibit the importation of slaves in 1778.  In 1784, he proposed federal legislation to prohibit the slave trade in new territories of the US (which was voted down).  On March 2, 1807 during Jefferson's presidency, he supported and signed an act to prohibit the importation of slaves to the US. These were all steps toward abolishing slavery in the US. 

Before he signed the act in 1807, he said this in his annual message to congress:
"I congratulate you, fellow-citizens, on the approach of the period at which you may interpose your authority constitutionally, to withdraw the citizens of the United States from all further participation in those violations of human rights which have been so long continued on the unoffending inhabitants of Africa, and which the morality, the reputation, and the best interests of our country, have long been eager to proscribe."

These are political acts, not moral ones. The US at this point had no need for further participation in the slave trade as the internal slave economy was more than sustainable to meet the needs of the Southern plantations, and in turn this deprived the rival (at the time) British of a lucrative market for their slaves. Slavery continued unabated for decades after the importation ban and indeed the Southern planter classes that Jefferson was a member of brought the country to the most brutal war and violence in its history over their right to enslave blacks. Jefferson himself of course continued to own, and rape, slaves to his death bed, after these actions were taken. If this was really some kind of great moral crusade he was on, can you explain that? No, you can't. This is another whitewash.

And "Jefferson was complicated" is a whitewash too. No shit, all people are complicated. Not everyone is a enthusiastic aristocratic slave owner.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2015, 08:59:38 AM by fuckboi1488 »
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Offline CumSavorer4385

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Re: 'Murica thread
« Reply #53 on: May 15, 2015, 07:14:50 PM »
Fuck Amerikkka for executing little kids pushed into terrorist plots by their domineering big brothers.
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Offline EviL~Ryu

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Re: 'Murica thread
« Reply #54 on: May 17, 2015, 05:29:51 PM »

Fuck Amerikkka for executing little kids pushed into terrorist plots by their domineering big brothers.

Your welcome for your welfare.

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Offline CumSavorer4385

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Re: 'Murica thread
« Reply #55 on: May 18, 2015, 08:46:09 AM »

Fuck Amerikkka for executing little kids pushed into terrorist plots by their domineering big brothers.

Your welcome for your welfare.

This message is sponsored by the US Government.


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Re: 'Murica thread
« Reply #56 on: May 18, 2015, 09:27:36 AM »


Fuck Amerikkka for executing little kids pushed into terrorist plots by their domineering big brothers.

Your welcome for your welfare.

This message is sponsored by the US Government.


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Oh.....I bet you receive it.


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Offline CumSavorer4385

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Re: 'Murica thread
« Reply #57 on: May 18, 2015, 09:58:52 AM »


Fuck Amerikkka for executing little kids pushed into terrorist plots by their domineering big brothers.

Your welcome for your welfare.

This message is sponsored by the US Government.


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I don't get welfare, but if I did that would be cool and I would brag about it just to make retards like you cry.

Oh.....I bet you receive it.


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Re: 'Murica thread
« Reply #58 on: May 18, 2015, 10:00:58 AM »



Fuck Amerikkka for executing little kids pushed into terrorist plots by their domineering big brothers.

Your welcome for your welfare.

This message is sponsored by the US Government.


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I don't get welfare, but if I did that would be cool and I would brag about it just to make retards like you cry.

Oh.....I bet you receive it.


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You must love ObamaCare....welfare slug....

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Offline tora is a simp bitch for billionaires

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Re: 'Murica thread
« Reply #59 on: May 18, 2015, 10:07:09 AM »
thank murica for their shitty barely functioning social programs, garbage health care (unless you're rich), and unwillingness to make minimum wage a livable one, aye thank murica