Warcraft II Forum
Warcraft II => Server.War2.ru => Topic started by: USA~Archer on April 07, 2015, 11:01:58 AM
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THIS IS THE #1 PROBLEM WITH WAR2RU
No I dont, and I'm actually thinking of leaving after seeing the videos from the "chop chop" newbie starter pack. I thought war2 would be simpler than newer RTS but this is all getting too complex for me.
60men pball
- Games last 2 to 5 minutes
- A player joins a game, having never played or heard of Warcraft II before, and instantly understands the map and what he needs to do
- Expert players do not ban newbs because the game is short, they are not committing to a long boring game against a newb opponent
- 60men players such as myself actually help teach newbs
- Newb learns how to play
- Newb tells his friends to make accounts so he can own them at 60men
GoW
- Average game lasts 15-30minutes, some even longer
- A newb joins, is asked s9, says what? and is banned without explanation, over and over and over
- Eventually the newb sneaks into a game and isnt banned, the game starts and he has no idea what is going on
- Gets made fun of
- Newb never learns how to play, builds resentment for the community as a whole
- Leaves War2 forever and tells his friends how shitty of an experience he had
Why 60men is key to War2RU survival, and GoW is key to War2RU collapse:
NO TIME SPENT LEARNING THE GAME
New players are LAZY. They do not want to spend time learning a game from 1995 and spend hours and hours learning all its building dependencies etc.
ANYONE CAN UNDERSTAND 60MEN, instantly.
Its like CoD. Even if its your first time ever playing or seeing it, you know what to do. You know where the trigger button is and that your objective is to shoot the other guys. THATS ALL YOU NEED TO KNOW. (to start, then, after youve already played a few times, you can start figuring out what you can do to improve)
SHORTER GAME TIMES
Also, most new players and players in general dont want to commit a half hour to a game. But 2-5 minutes is a much smaller commitment, Resulting in more people playing more frequently
GAMES CREATED MORE FREQUENTLY
Due to the smaller time commitment, more players will be playing, but also if you miss a game, you only have to wait 2-5minutes for the same group to make another game. This is what will keep even a small community alive is fast games. If theres 16 players online playing 2 games and they just started, you might have to wait a half hour or longer for anyone to join your game. but if 16 players are playing 60men, you only have to wait 2-5 minutes to jump in a game
60men players MAY migrate to become GoW players
60men will get newbs to start playing, then they are more likely to later become GoW players, but I see it as very unlikely a new player will start with GoW and stick around for longer than a day or two here
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and why GoW must die for community to survive.
I stopped reading exactly there hahahahaha.
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Okay i changed the title because I dont want GoW to die, I just dont want GoW and ChopFarms to not be all the community plays.
I think 60men is the best map for new players to the game.
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You are clearly ignorant. An average gow game is about 7-10minutes. Stopped reading there. Although your point above were total BS too...
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GOW games are more like 10-15 minutes than 30. And honestly I don't care if war2 survives in the form of 60man because that's not the War2 i would log on to play.
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YOU GUYS ARE IDIOTS
Have fun playing GoW with the 10 of you until the game is completely dead
THIS IS THE #1 PROBLEM WITH WAR2RU
No I dont, and I'm actually thinking of leaving after seeing the videos from the "chop chop" newbie starter pack. I thought war2 would be simpler than newer RTS but this is all getting too complex for me.
And none of you will even acknowledge that it is even a problem!!!!!!!!!!!!
I do not deny that GoW takes a ton of strategy and is complex, fun, challenging, interesting, for players who have been playing it since 1995, however NO NEW PLAYERS GIVE A SHIT
Not even old players like me give a shit. I started Battle.Net around 2002 and nobody EVER played GoW. I didn't even try to learn GoW until 2010 when I started playing here, but quickly left the community after being s9'd and banned from every game.
I still suck at GoW really, and sometimes get banned, but I'm still trying to learn when I can by watching youtube and reading strat guides.
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YOU GUYS ARE IDIOTS
Have fun playing GoW with the 10 of you until the game is completely dead
THIS IS THE #1 PROBLEM WITH WAR2RU
No I dont, and I'm actually thinking of leaving after seeing the videos from the "chop chop" newbie starter pack. I thought war2 would be simpler than newer RTS but this is all getting too complex for me.
And none of you will even acknowledge that it is a problem.
I do not deny that GoW takes a ton of strategy and is complex, fun, challenging, interesting, for players who have been playing it since 1995, however NO NEW PLAYERS GIVE A SHIT.
Listen brotha.
If you wanna play some lol type game, you better just join league of legend.
We have no probleme about the fact you want to made a little community for paintball.
We have probleme about your hacks and your way to dont cares about what we said, and your way to act with gow.
gow is totally the reason why this game is still alive after 15 years, gow is warcraft II, paintball is paintball.
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Why won't you people let the others play what they want? Diversity. If one thinks 60 men is more fun than gow, let him play that. Or mageball. or chopchop. Or various BNEs. Or the best map ever made - tumbleweed aka Mirror TE
literally anyone can organize tournaments, let the number of players and tournament participants decide rather than stupid threads, limericks and trickery.
Personally I agree with you - chill, easy maps without retarded instabanning tryhards are definitely better environment for a person willing to play w2 after 15 years break or some other casual oldgamer. I find the compstomp hosting bot a great middleground, but w/e, it's still in the making :P
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Why won't you people let the others play what they want? Diversity. If one thinks 60 men is more fun than gow, let him play that. Or mageball. or chopchop. Or various BNEs. Or the best map ever made - tumbleweed aka Mirror TE
literally anyone can organize tournaments, let the number of players and tournament participants decide rather than stupid threads, limericks and trickery.
Personally I agree with you - chill, easy maps without retarded instabanning tryhards are definitely better environment for a person willing to play w2 after 15 years break or some other casual oldgamer. I find the compstomp hosting bot a great middleground, but w/e, it's still in the making :P
He can play what he want, but that dont mean he have to be a retard for this reason.
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60 men = tic tac toe
gow = chess
60men isn't even warcraft 2.
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go make your own server already, we all know thats what your planning anyways and take your hacks with you
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GOW games are more like 10-15 minutes than 30. And honestly I don't care if war2 survives in the form of 60man because that's not the War2 i would log on to play.
Same old blid, idiots like this is why this game well never grow. Complete retard. Shut the fuck up, do your job as Admin and look after ALL gamers. You prick.
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funny that you choose me to insult when I said very little except I wouldn't be interested in logging on to play paintball. the OP is saying GOW is the key to War2's collapse, but to me, GOW (and other BNEs) are War2. Is it a ban happy community? Yes. Is it easy for new players to be competitive? No. Those are problems. But a custom map without resources and with one-hit kills is basically a totally different game. If you like it, have at it, but it's not something i'm interested in playing. If there were 100 users online daily but they only played 60man, war2 would be dead in my eyes.
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The BNE community needs to not ban every new person from their games though. It's shitty. They could learn from the chop etc players. People used to be helpful and let newbs play, tell them how to build, etc. now it's just like, "oh, you're new? get out." Hosting games in that way is just slow suicide. But I wonder if some of it has to do with the more international flavor of the game now. A lot of the newbs dont seem to really speak English, which means you cant tell them stuff and they might screw up games, and people dont want to risk wasting their time. Too bad.
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op players. People used to
chop is much more forgiving for newbs and easier to learn thats why. training someone on gow takes forever
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I disagree, chop isn't that easy. But maybe it's easier to win despite having noob allies because the trees buy you some time to overcome disadvantages. or maybe chop people are just more chill.
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also, chop is not paintball. Chop is war2
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Chop is totally easier map since you almost only have to do macro without micro blid.
New player have more interess to play chop because actually they can suvive a couple more minutes before die.
On gow its a question of time before you get scout and die.
But ganz, people dont get good at gow because they dont listen, not because its hard to learn it.
Most of pro players are still huge newbs because they actually think they are good and they dont need to learn Lol
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I disagree, chop isn't that easy. But maybe it's easier to win despite having noob allies because the trees buy you some time to overcome disadvantages. or maybe chop people are just more chill.
And you think custom games are easy to master? Pfft, shows how much you know.
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also, chop is not paintball. Chop is war2
How is Pball not war2? You still need skill @ unit control. Just because it uses different elements of the game doesn't make it war2.
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I disagree, chop isn't that easy. But maybe it's easier to win despite having noob allies because the trees buy you some time to overcome disadvantages. or maybe chop people are just more chill.
And you think custom games are easy to master? Pfft, shows how much you know.
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Com on dude, any pro player who will have interesst for custom map will rape 97% of the custom cumminity, the truth is pro maps are what we are lookin for, we want real strategie from a real war point of view.
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New player have more interess to play chop because actually they can suvive a couple more minutes before die.
On gow its a question of time before you get scout and die.
yeah, probably.
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I disagree, chop isn't that easy. But maybe it's easier to win despite having noob allies because the trees buy you some time to overcome disadvantages. or maybe chop people are just more chill.
And you think custom games are easy to master? Pfft, shows how much you know.
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Com on dude, any pro player who will have interesst for custom player will rape 97% of the custom cumminity, the truth is pro maps are what we are lookin for, we want real strategie from a real war point of view.
Lmfao and you think custom games don't offer real strat? You are really brain dead. It takes great skill to master AO and Pball such as 60 men or Alleria.
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also, chop is not paintball. Chop is war2
How is Pball not war2? You still need skill @ unit control. Just because it uses different elements of the game doesn't make it war2.
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You need skill at unit control in dota too. Is dota war2? Pball is on the war2 engine and has war2 units in it, so if you want to argue it's war2, it would be a technical or philosophical argument. Is everything you can play on the war2 engine war2? i don't care about that argument really.
Does it have resource gathering? resource management? Do you train units? Do you make buildings? Do you upgrade tech? Do you cast spells? Practically speaking, it's not war2.
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i disagree with 'forgiving', chop is very newb unfriendly, because:
- in gow it would be a simple 3v4, but in chop a newbie neighbour may completely fuck up his ally's base, so they get backstabbed sometimes. It would never happen in gow
- in chop farms, autistic newbies never leave forcing everyone to kill their farms and in consequence, losing everyones time. It's very annoying and probably one of the very few reasons they get banned
that's the technical stuff. I won't argue whether the most basic '1 rax-lust cookbook' strat is easier than a 'dont die' chop chop strategy, maybe so..
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also, chop is not paintball. Chop is war2
How is Pball not war2? You still need skill @ unit control. Just because it uses different elements of the game doesn't make it war2.
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You need skill at unit control in dota too. Is dota war2? Pball is on the war2 engine and has war2 units in it, so if you want to argue it's war2, it would be a technical argument. Is everything you can play on the war2 engine war2? That's a philosophical argument.
Does it have resource gathering? resource management? Do you train units? Do you make buildings? Do you upgrade tech? Do you cast spells? Practically speaking, it's not war2.
And Dota is considered war3, not sure if you even play it as i do every week on war3. Even war3 ladder players consider dota war3.
Pball still uses the element of the game you retard. You still need to know how a Alleria behaves. Ofc anything on war2 engine is war2 wtf are you talking about.
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I disagree, chop isn't that easy. But maybe it's easier to win despite having noob allies because the trees buy you some time to overcome disadvantages. or maybe chop people are just more chill.
And you think custom games are easy to master? Pfft, shows how much you know.
Sent from my Motorola DynaTAC 8000X
Com on dude, any pro player who will have interesst for custom player will rape 97% of the custom cumminity, the truth is pro maps are what we are lookin for, we want real strategie from a real war point of view.
Lmfao and you think custom games don't offer real strat? You are really brain dead. It takes great skill to master AO and Pball such as 60 men or Alleria.
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What is real strat for you? Do you think i start with gow? Most of pro players start on custom map too 15 years ago, difference was we are not playing same custom map.. In our time it was BGH, TOWER WAR, FREE CASTLE.
But there a time where you get older and you want more then free building and free units, you want to manage your own ressource, you want to choose your units and your building, you want to protect your base, you want to get control of the map with expantion, you want to do usefull attack with a nice micro, you want to think about EVERYTHING in a large way to do it.
Custom map are good for some people who dint want to get on next level, but every pro players know there nothing to compare about a custom map and a real rts map.
Im sorry brotha, but your gonna have to grow a good day too.
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i guess i don't think it will be productive to argue is or is it not war2. the better questions are:
Does it have resource gathering? resource management? Do you train units? Do you make buildings? Do you upgrade tech? Do you cast spells?
That's quite a significant number of elements it lacks. if it doesn't have any of those things, then it is an incredibly different type of game
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i guess i don't think it will be productive to argue is or is it not war2. the better questions are:Does it have resource gathering? resource management? Do you train units? Do you make buildings? Do you upgrade tech? Do you cast spells?
That's quite a significant number of elements it lacks. if it doesn't have any of those things, then it is an incredibly different type of game
I just dont think its productive for me to argue with a dimwit as yourself. So im done.
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i had not played this map ever.
i finally did a bit ago, it was 3v3.
played about 5 games.
the team where usaarcher was at (our opponent) lost 4 of those 5 games, and in all those 4, his teammates blamed archer for the loss. (being archer the first to die)
lol.
it was about 10 days ago.
so much for the 60men promotor 8)
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i guess i don't think it will be productive to argue is or is it not war2. the better questions are:Does it have resource gathering? resource management? Do you train units? Do you make buildings? Do you upgrade tech? Do you cast spells?
That's quite a significant number of elements it lacks. if it doesn't have any of those things, then it is an incredibly different type of game
I just dont think its productive for me to argue with a dimwit as yourself. So im done.
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there's nothing to argue about, blids latest post contains nothing but facts
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I do think you and or others returning and hosting 60 Men Tournaments / games is a good thing. I agree that it can help keep new users intrigued enough to begin the game and later even move onto other types of maps if they want. People having the option to choose any type of war2 related game doesn't hurt. The biggest thing is just players letting other players play. The more people hosting a game the better in my opinion. At that note can you please just remove the hack download from the website.
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Archer does make some good points. While I'm not personally a pball fan, you have to admit it's far more approachable for new players who just want to play a game and aren't particularly interested in becoming the next Viruz. It's not exclusively such though; there are a lot of fun maps that dumb down one aspect of gameplay or another and are easier to understand when one's first learning the game -- a lot of good examples mentioned in stevebrock's thread.
The overarching problem is the "instabanning newbs" mentality. The client's getting a respectable number of downloads, so the task now is to not instantly drive these people away. Teams can be arranged to accomodate newbs while still being interesting and balanced, e.g. an equal distribution per team, or one really newby newb on the weaker team in a 2v2, etc. Just letting them play some of the time is better than never. And once there's enough of them logging on regularly, they'll start gravitating towards players & games of their own skill level, which will make it easier for future newbs to integrate.
Failing that though, the autohosting bot is a great idea and possibly our only hope. Since the current gamebot now consistently has lat within 10 minutes of logging on it's basically useless, so if anyone feels like coding a new model there's a vacancy on a hosting computer.
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Thank you for acknowledging some of my points.
Our goal is the same, we all want to see War2RU continue to succeed: attract new players, turn them into good players, grow server.
Mouse, i want to help rewrite the gamebot - maybe start a thread in dev forum?
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yea give him the gamebot code so he can use it on his server that will try to steal all the custom players lol, not gonna happen.
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yea give him the gamebot code so he can use it on his server that will try to steal all the custom players lol, not gonna happen.
You morons are gonna do that all by yourselves lmao...why u blaming archer. For the amount you bash custom games and gamers it will happen all on its own.
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Thank you for acknowledging some of my points.
Our goal is the same, we all want to see War2RU continue to succeed: attract new players, turn them into good players, grow server.
Mouse, i want to help rewrite the gamebot - maybe start a thread in dev forum?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I would play paintball since I have no clue what an s9 is.
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Thank you for acknowledging some of my points.
Our goal is the same, we all want to see War2RU continue to succeed: attract new players, turn them into good players, grow server.
Mouse, i want to help rewrite the gamebot - maybe start a thread in dev forum?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I would play paintball since I have no clue what an s9 is.
Hahaha [emoji39] [emoji106]
Sent from my Motorola DynaTAC 8000X
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Thank you for acknowledging some of my points.
Our goal is the same, we all want to see War2RU continue to succeed: attract new players, turn them into good players, grow server.
Mouse, i want to help rewrite the gamebot - maybe start a thread in dev forum?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I would play paintball since I have no clue what an s9 is.
just say 30k when someone asks s9
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Someone must ask himself what is warcraft 2? What are the basics that are learned from the very essence of the game? I always thought that war2 should be learned from campaigns first (I'm talking about a total newb). You learn relations between buildings and units and their upgrades. Each step is taught one by one. Later in the campaigns you learn to micro-manage your units more, especially catapults. You learn about expanding, resource management, unit management, scouting, and how to defend efficiently from various types of attack.
When you transpose these strategies to online play, GOW is a map that requires ALL of these skills, which are the essence of warcraft 2 IMHO. I agree that GOW is played too much, that there are other maps that are fun and can lead to very complex games. But to say that GOW isn't the future of warcraft2 is to ignore WHY the game is still alive.
I personally have played A LOT on KALI and heat back then, and GOW was the most popular map. About a year ago, i log on ru and still find out that gow/high ef is STILL the most played setup! I didn't enjoy the first games as the players got MUCH better over the years. But you know what? I got a LOT better in no time and I still enjoy learning about advanced tactics on this map as I still get beat up badly by good players.
Poiros