Warcraft II Forum
Warcraft II => Server.War2.ru => Topic started by: Lone on September 07, 2019, 07:58:58 PM
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Ballista
-One idea is to make ballistas fire the same way as cats. I can't imagine counter-arguments to this change, but we'll see.
-An alternative, and ugly (but potentially easier) idea is to remove them all-together and give humans cats as well. Cats are race neutral and I'm pretty sure even the icons of commands would not be an issue by default. However I can see people disliking this which is understandable.
Paladin, holy vision
-When you cast holy vision, the game camera automatically centers itself around the casting square. Due to the latency, and cast-time this makes holy vision unnecessarily difficult to use. (pre-target dks, combine with exorcism, combine with polymorph on sea maps). The idea is to just remove the part where the camera shifts to the casting location and let the player retain control of the camera.
Paladin, heal
-Heal is technically useless. An idea to make it easier to utilize is to make it function like exorcism. Make it so, that you do not need to target the unit you wish to heal, but the game automatically tries to heal every unit in a certain (let's say 4x4) region after it is cast. To make it even remotely useful, players would usually need to use multi-cast, but at least it could be potentially utilized now and then.
-I doubt making heal only function on allied units could be a problem. Exorcism already only works on enemy units, so it should not be too difficult to code this. However, assuming heal does get changed, to AoE, then it could still heal enemy units, requiring the human to have better timing, or mouse accuracy, tho I'd vote against this. Lastly, mana cost could be decreased to 4 or left untouched.
-Alternatively, it could just be changed to cost 50 mana, and heal 50 hp, and leave it's mechanics as it is, but it's still gonna be useless. (Maybe combine this with a cheaper upgrade, ah whatever)
I assume we have access to the base code, as latency and lumber bug were fixed.
Imo, none of these changes would break the game, the change in power would be extremely small, and humies could add a tiny bit of diversity. Personally, I would not touch anything else as I have no other safe ideas. Playing vs humans gives a very different feeling. Playing Hu vs Hu is again very different (worse imo), hence I would not want to try to really balance the races. Also, I think perfect, or even 'good' balance is impossible. I see no harm in these ideas tho. Regarding nostalgia, I love the spell sounds of paladins. Lastly, I like seeing (or being) a good human player fighting an almost as good orc player.
Thoughts? Positive, negative, neutral all welcome, just please communicate properly!
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My thoughts: no.
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i like sum of those ideas... i dont like the auto heal tho .. if wed do ne thing id say jus make paladins spawn quicker... like if its 120 time to pop give it like 90 instead .. an wit that humans only need to make like 1 or 2 extra raxes instead of making double the amount of orcs
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many games has auto play ...perhaps this is good! specially the auto heal part!
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maybe u could take exo cast and tell it to target u and freindly..and cast heal instead of exo
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Tk, that was concise! Just to clarify, you are against all of these ideas right?
I wouldn't say it's 'auto' heal. It would work like exorcism or death coil which is an already existing wc2 mechanic. Auto heal, I believe would mean that paladins without the players control, heal their allied units (alike priests in wc3, if auto-cast is turned on)... For wc2, such auto-heal efforts would be futile in terms of programming/testing, and also unwanted.
APM-wise, heal multi-cast would take about the time of lusting 5 ogres: select all paladins + press ctrl 1 + select 1 paladin + press 'h' for heal + press alt 1 (multi-cast) + left click on/around target. The first 2 steps can be dropped, if paladins are already hotkeyd. Even so, spending apm on heal will be questionable unless you are a very fast player perhaps. At most I'd say it is AoE heal, not auto-heal.
Regarding faster, cheaper paladins (or knights)... Humies have different strengths and require a different playstyle. I would suggest we avoid helping paladins to straight up fight lusted ogres. Personally I'd welcome such a change, for a testing period at least, however I am almost certain most of the others will find it too major of a change. We can try to make a poll for it tho, and hear what others would say about it. In the end we could get to ideas together that would be welcome by enough players (80%+ given this is a classic).
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maybe u could take exo cast and tell it to target u and freindly..and cast heal instead of exo
In terms of code (and preserving wc2 mechanics), that would be the solution (also pay attention to factors like exo only works on undead units). I think self-targeting spells don't already exist on wc2, so I'd avoid that for nostalgia and coding reasons.
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well it is told to work on undead..it has a twin spell that is raise dead...ive tried putting heal on it but will crash right now as it uses the click on unit cast type.
i was hoping for more options that blizzard left in....kinda like custom puds
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i personally dont see any reason to modify the mechanics of the game outside of what was intended. lots of people have suggestions to do so. im always opposed =/
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when i say "outside of what was intended" .. the latency that we currently play at (even when set to low) is not how the game is actually supposed to play.
Go play vs a computer in single player and watch how responsive your units are.
I didnt think it was possible to get that level of responsiveness on the multi-player level until a few years ago when some members of the community toyed with the idea of moving the community to a server "voobly" which is ipx connection i believe. while testing it, it was very clear that the units were much more responsive than playing on pvpgn
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yeah kali pkt 4 u can play fastest and stop units....dosbox also when me and tupac tested it out but idk how it would fair in alot of people playing without latency that smooths the network..
which is another idea kali is free now and one could use that for bnet...just an idea ..and cotton would be besides himself with joy seeing people in his kali :-*
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I assume we have access to the base code, as latency and lumber bug were fixed.
Stop trying to modify war2. This is what Wargus is for and you DO have access to the native code there. In war2 you do NOT. Its all bubble gum and duct tape when you try to modify the original war2. Wargus exists for a reason. It's so that modifications of war2 could be done NATIVELY. You can take wargus and make it IDENTICAL to war2 and then re-modify it until it's no longer war2 if you want. And it is fully multi-user capable when coupled with a Metaserver (same idea as PVPGN). Host your own Metaserver, bam, done.
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Stop trying to modify war2. This is what Wargus is for and you DO have access to the native code there. In war2 you do NOT. Its all bubble gum and duct tape when you try to modify the original war2. Wargus exists for a reason. It's so that modifications of war2 could be done NATIVELY. You can take wargus and make it IDENTICAL to war2 and then re-modify it until it's no longer war2 if you want. And it is fully multi-user capable when coupled with a Metaserver (same idea as PVPGN). Host your own Metaserver, bam, done.
Wargus is horrible. It feels nothing like WC2.
Just because they ripped the graphics and used them in a completely different game engine doesn't make it any more like wc2 than farmville.
Please google "native code" then say some more clueless shit that makes me lol. I like it ;D
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I didnt think it was possible to get that level of responsiveness on the multi-player level until a few years ago when some members of the community toyed with the idea of moving the community to a server "voobly" which is ipx connection i believe. while testing it, it was very clear that the units were much more responsive than playing on pvpgn
IPX is not supported by IP (the base internet protocol). That is the whole point of Kali. It is an IPX emulator. It encapsulates IPX in TCP so it can be sent over the internet.
Any change in latency would be an effect similar to all players connecting through the same VPN, and has nothing to do with IPX.
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If you bring in a farmville player, told them that flame shield is the worst source of reliable damage and told them to face lambchops using only this for damage, they would easily complete this "challenge".
Lambchops would then immediately get mad and try to frame them for hacking afterwards despite the fact he himself was hacking in the game. You still need to stop cheating by the way. Take it to single player at least if you can't help yourself clown.
Tl;dr nerf flame shield so people can handicap themselves even more when playing lambchops
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I assume we have access to the base code, as latency and lumber bug were fixed.
Stop trying to modify war2. This is what Wargus is for and you DO have access to the native code there. In war2 you do NOT. Its all bubble gum and duct tape when you try to modify the original war2. Wargus exists for a reason. It's so that modifications of war2 could be done NATIVELY. You can take wargus and make it IDENTICAL to war2 and then re-modify it until it's no longer war2 if you want. And it is fully multi-user capable when coupled with a Metaserver (same idea as PVPGN). Host your own Metaserver, bam, done.
"In war2 you do NOT. Its all bubble gum and duct tape when you try to modify the original war2." I don't know much about this. I wonder, how did the prior modifications done by iL took place then.
1) Regardless, you're suggesting that the fixes I described would be considerably harder to implement, than to turn wargus into wc2? Cause the latter would require a huge amount of effort which in the end would be wasted.
-If this is the case, and you have some time to go on, I'd be curious to hear more about how wc2combat was modified up to this point. Wargus is out of the question. Even if someone managed to turn it into wc2 having spent probably months on it, it's unlikely the whole server (people, and on a technical level) would move.
2) Or are you simply against all or some changes (eg.: lumber fix, warlat)?
-This is also valid and understandable. I have not played (online) with the lumber bug, but I see no problem with it being in or out of the game. I can see people who were used to it, and suddenly had it taken away would be upset. On the other hand, everyone is fine with it now. Regarding warlat, some people don't use it (sg), some don't mind it (braviet). I personally rely on it to the point, I'd lose 30% more games without it, and I'd also have to simplify my playstyle. Tower 'bug' is a healthy element of the game, that requires a lot of experience to first understand, then utilize/fight against. "Fixing" tower "bug" would be a terrible idea for online wc2 for example. If you are plain against the above changes, please explain how the above changes will impact gameplay psychologically, and in terms of what happens in the game at various skill levels.
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1) Regardless, you're suggesting that the fixes I described would be considerably harder to implement, than to turn wargus into wc2?
2) Or are you simply against all or some changes (eg.: lumber fix, warlat)?
-This is also valid and understandable. I have not played (online) with the lumber bug, but I see no problem with it being in or out of the game. I can see people who were used to it, and suddenly had it taken away would be upset. On the other hand, everyone is fine with it now. Regarding warlat, some people don't use it (sg), some don't mind it (braviet). I personally rely on it to the point, I'd lose 30% more games without it, and I'd also have to simplify my playstyle. Tower 'bug' is a healthy element of the game, that requires a lot of experience to first understand, then utilize/fight against. "Fixing" tower "bug" would be a terrible idea for online wc2 for example. If you are plain against the above changes, please explain how the above changes will impact gameplay psychologically, and in terms of what happens in the game at various skill levels.
It would take literally 1-2 days of a REAL dev removing the GARBAGE that Wargus has added to it in order to bring it back to War2. It would take literally YEARS to implement what wargus has done with war2 and it would be BUGGY AS ALL HELL because it's not done using native code. Pick your poison. Lambhax doesnt know the difference between machine language and a real language, this is why he doesnt understand the comparison. Here an example, it's like trying to modify a car to make it louder, faster, and better, without being able to open the hood, sure you can do a few things, but eventually you're going to want to access whatever is under the hood in order to really make it pur. It's welded shut with an impenetrable metal and the only way you can get to it is by using a car lift, some fucked up tools that bend in ways that shouldnt be needed, etc. That is exactly how war2 is modified. But with wargus, everything is accessible, including the hood.
I am actually NOT against changes at all. I fully believe that there is already an outlet that does this beautifully and it's name is Wargus (not to be confused with stratagus which is the actual engine itself). Wargus is but ONE implementation of stratagus. That doesnt mean you cant re-create war2 (with its "feel") using stratagus. Anyone who says that, simply doesnt know what stratagus is or how it works. There are actually 2 paths you can take to recreate war2. Start with barebones Stratagus or Reverse changes done in Wargus. IMO it would be easiest to reverse Wargus than it would be to start with a base Stratagus, but either path is actually BETTER than attempting to "hook" war2 to death like has been going on. Just because no one has done this yet doesnt mean it's not a viable option.
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Why build a whole game when Warcraft 2 can be balanced with a code change. Blizzard never balanced Warcraft 2, even the devs admit that on water they were stronger and orc was stronger on land. We know that most people don’t play water maps. Sometimes small increases are better then none, especially if the public votes it (saw the chop bar removed because of how many votes)
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Incos, I realize you're still new around here and are not a developer, but "with a code change" isnt possible with War2. It's only possible with the STRATAGUS engine. If you change something in war2, you literally have to hack the thing with unconventional methods such as memory editing, changing MPQ files with hex editors, etc (it's like cutting through the hood of a car with a cutting torch just to get to the engine when you could instead pop the hood the right way with a lever). It makes no sense to modify war2 as far as balance goes. It makes more sense to use the proper tools for that which is Stratagus/Wargus.
I'm also now going to call you out on that "devs" admission quote. I am about 95% certain it was never said, so lets see it, link pls. Where did the blizzard devs say such non-sense (although the statement is true, it was never said publicly by blizzard devs). YWFN as far as I know is the ONLY blizzard personnel to have ever really been a member of the war2 community after BNE was released. Do you even know who that is? Probably not, you're still new around here so I wouldnt expect as much. And he wasnt a dev. He was just a QA person I believe and he is the ONLY person I can think of that Blizzard hired who would have said such a thing (mainly because it's a true statement).
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Yeah I played with ywfn on kali about 6 years before you came. We had azteca pimster guan, watje, archangel, tillerman, dethwlkr, warmonger and so many more. It was fun back then and it is still fun now.
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Yeah I played with ywfn on kali about 6 years before you came. We had azteca pimster guan, watje, archangel, tillerman, dethwlkr, warmonger and so many more. It was fun back then and it is still fun now.
Heh u crack me up. 6 yrs before I came would put that 4yrs BEFORE warcraft 1 let alone war2 lol. Seems you're a bit mixed up on whats what beyond just war2 mods :) You know whats even more curious, I recognize and know all the players you mentioned......... EXCEPT for you. So unless you've been smurfin since 2017, I do believe you're just pulling up the nostalgia page and claiming things :)
A lol war2 trivia night sounds cool. Where did Azteca work? (This is something all the players he played with knew because he gloated about it almost daily)
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I'm not sure what everyone's fascination with "fixing" this game is lately. I am generally not for it BUT I respect Lone and am not 100% against all of his ideas either.
I personally am okay with pults being equal to ballistas. This makes me a hypocrite but this change I don't really mind. I don't think the game shouldn't be imba so early on and gays are a HUGE part of GOW.
Unholy vision- I get it, I don't necessarily hate the idea but I don't see a HUGE necessity for it. Wouldn't piss me off if it went through but I would veto.
Heal- I would veto but wouldn't overly cry if it went through.
Lat- I'm all for the no lat. I'm not 100% sure how it works for war2 but I know in war3, when you had the 3rd party program and hosted a game, EVERYONE had the amazingly good lat, not just 1 person. I'm all for that. Makes a big difference in micro.
I'm also very against the whole, we can add it, and if you want it, you click on it when you install, and if you don't, you don't click on the feature. WE ALL NEED TO BE PLAYING THE SAME GAME, at least in game features. (Minus color patch) Allowing the people that want it to have it, and those who don't, to not have it, is not a solution. Those who don't want it, don't want it for EVERYONE.
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Lance, I'll check out Wargus in the future when I have time and energy for such hobbies. Not sure, but I assume I would personally need more than just 2 days. Without Wargus being turned into wc2, such changes are infeasible, and simply editing values of stuff (cost, speed etc...) via a hex editor will not gain a considerable amount of support/tolerance.
Harry, thanks for your kind and reasonable input! Also, what is Unholy vision? :) Sounds like a cool idea!
I am not sure how warlat works either and why some people have technical issues with it. It is probably due to people using older versions like BNE...
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ill save you the trouble ...wyrmsun is all you want
that's true lone... even customs are very hard to get any take off if they arent 20 y/o
all one would want to do with modding war2 is to make sc beta alpha... orcs in space..war2 goes purple..
unholy vision ;D