Warcraft II Forum
Warcraft II => Server.War2.ru => Topic started by: Sentinel1 on June 15, 2016, 12:49:15 AM
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The main problem with old/ef GoW is that everyone builds exactly the same with little to no variation. And when there's little variation in how people build, there is very little variation in how people attack each other. I thought about this watching a game the other day where braviet was at s9 and someone else was at 11. When 11's peon ran into s9, there's really only two spots braviet's hall can be, "middle" or "below" the gold mine.
Braviet's gold mine was in the middle, with his first farm creating two paths to block someone else from popping his peons below with a farm or tower. 11 blocked this with one wall, forcing braviet's peons to pop out below. Now having played thousands of games, this is something braviet has no doubt encountered countless times. Whereas someone like me hasn't yet figured out what's the optimal move now, braviet and most others have. And with the slow ef speed making execution a non-issue, to combat what's happening is just academic for him.
This is one small example. I watched Viruz play a series vs someone where he got 11 three games in a row. Every game he built exactly the same, rax walling him in, smith behind rax popping grunts out, followed by a chop below the smith a bit later to pop a cat inside. He won every game despite the fact that 95% of the gameplay was exactly the same.
On gow bne there's a little more room for building differently which is a big factor, but I think just as big is the fact that at higher speed, execution comes more into play. Things are a little more chaotic, especially if you're trying to break a dual while maintain things at home. Things get a little messier and that makes games vary much more.
tldr: since everyone on old/ef builds the same, every higher level player has tons of practice knowing what to do in every situation because they've already encountered the exact scenario countless times before and equally importantly, does not need to be fast to do what they know needs to be done.
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be humans, get some mages, research flame and burn their orges that should change it up a little.
ikr everyone is so fast with there hands :(
ef is still better unit control over f. gowbne as a map is better to me than gow.
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This is exactly what makes 1v1 boring as opposed to 2s, 3s or even 4s.... :) I mean to play players like jesk, ruz etc (not denying their skills) is an exercise in yawnfest/boredom.
I stopped caring about 1s years ago for some of the reasons you said. Too many people (including the good ones) have copied builds, or building placements.
Heck, just see some random guy play 9,5,11 and 4. The near exact same walling/placements. 12 is an exception this is one of the only viable builds available and is done by 99% of players and has been done since years ago (2 raxes/smith/farms under hall)
9,5,11 and 4 is just an occurence in RU....
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That s why we should play more another maps, since we are playing only gow PPL remember bulid, strats, etc. We know only too well this map
Few times I played vs viet with Humans, I can win with human in another map but in gow its impossible since spots play a big role
I prefer 1x1 games than team games. Why? Cause i can focus on myself. No need to watch my pard what is he doing or what he should doing.
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Hi all,
I'm pretty new in the group here, and have noticed that 80% of the games are GoW EF.
It is true that most old players you have mastered that map and you are winning by just repeating your builds and fixed strategies.
While that is great! And some of you have undeniable amazing skill in that map. War 2 is so much more than GoW! If we want the group to grow and have new skilled people we should be promoting other maps too!
That said, I think the good players should start making some great replays of other maps and post on youtube!
I would also like to see some chop games (even if I suck on them) I have to admit is fun like hell if you get your city up! And more maps with those too. I've seen only two different ones for now.
Also paintball games are fun! But I only had 2 games until now...
by using other maps, many of the new players will be much more challenging than when you play against them in GoW. That will make the game more interesting for all!
Cheers
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It is true that most old players you have mastered that map and you are winning by just repeating your builds and fixed strategies.
The first part of that statement is true (people have memorized the map) but the second part is not. They don't win because they're repeating builds and strategies, or else everyone would win, which is impossible. Some people win more because they're better. The winners wouldn't change much on other maps, even though the builds would.
The repetition does get tiring though, especially the most popular strategy of lightly rushing and then powering and popping in a cat. Things are more interesting in team games.
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It is true that most old players you have mastered that map and you are winning by just repeating your builds and fixed strategies.
The first part of that statement is true (people have memorized the map) but the second part is not. They don't win because they're repeating builds and strategies, or else everyone would win, which is impossible. Some people win more because they're better. The winners wouldn't change much on other maps, even though the builds would.
The repetition does get tiring though, especially the most popular strategy of lightly rushing and then powering and popping in a cat. Things are more interesting in team games.
You are answering your self! There is a clear repetition :-P. Some of the players are experienced enough to actually apply similar strategies to other maps too but when you take them out of GoW their fighting capacity drops drastically!
I have played a few games with some of the GoW EF players, and while on GoW the result is an easy victory for their side on other maps their chance of winning decreases drastically. This is obviously expected as they have specialized on GoW.
Often when I join a game, I state that I count as a 0.5 player (especially on Chop games) similarly in GoW. But on other maps such as PoS, Gold Mines, B2B, Gold separates... I give a good fight to most players.
The reason? Some GoW strategies simply don't work on other maps, and even lust in some maps has a decreased worth (for example Maze).
And yes this is part of the beauty of the game! War 2 is not only GoW. It is a lot of catching your opponent unsuspected and on GoW the existing players know how to react on almost everything! They know where their opponent will come from and what are the most efficient tactics. That simply decreases the creativity factor!
Do not take me wrong, I do not consider the GoW players doing something wrong. The reverse, they have actually mastered the map! I just agree with the initial post of Sentinel that the Group requires more variety! Or like Lightbringer said... 1s on GoW are boring and he only plays team games!
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Often when I join a game, I state that I count as a 0.5 player (especially on Chop games) similarly in GoW. But on other maps such as PoS, Gold Mines, B2B, Gold separates... I give a good fight to most players.
The reason? Some GoW strategies simply don't work on other maps, and even lust in some maps has a decreased worth (for example Maze).
i don't disagree about variety etc but the same players are good on pos, b2b, and other bne maps as on gow.
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In gow u got 60k gold in mine in pos u got 40k so u cant play the same or making 30 peons like in gow
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The repetition does get tiring though, especially the most popular strategy of lightly rushing and then powering and popping in a cat. Things are more interesting in team games.
+1...
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That s why we should play more another maps, since we are playing only gow PPL remember bulid, strats, etc. We know only too well this map
This is the best reply in this thread, would love to see lots of new maps being played on a regular basis. :)
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If playing a series, a loser picks next map is something i see on warcraft 3 often, it would be nice to see that on war2, though 80% of community would just pick gow when they lose haha.
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gow 1v1's among pro players is indeed extremely boring to watch. they've learned the safest strats (typically 7-8 grunts with cat, then race to lust) and whoever has the best unit control, timing, and resource management typically wins.. The only exception is with a few players like Its_hot_in_herr who play unconventionally. The people who try to make the games fun rather than focus strictly on winning. Those 1's can be really interesting.
In 2v2 though the games are completely different and gow is such a versatile map (especially for team games imo) that it's rare you see the same type of games back to back.
The problem isnt gow/ef, it's people who dont want to put in the time or effort to understand it and get good... but i'm all for playing other maps as well.
I just dont think there are any other maps as complex as gow played on even faster speed.
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gow 1v1's among pro players is indeed extremely boring to watch. they've learned the safest strats (typically 7-8 grunts with cat, then race to lust) and whoever has the best unit control, timing, and resource management typically wins.. The only exception is with a few players like Its_hot_in_herr who play unconventionally. The people who try to make the games fun rather than focus strictly on winning. Those 1's can be really interesting.
This is all very good and I agree, although you did leave out macro/map control as one of the most important elements of late game play
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i'm not sure if its possible with the code or whatever but how about one week a month - the client forces only a random classic map (such as gseps) and random resource for that entire week - no others can be hosted. This would also force the customs community to mix with the old / ef die hards - its just for one week a month, and if its popular, make it more often?
idk something like this is literally the only way anyone would ever change the status quo
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also i'd like to add I witnessed Sepi have a massive meltdown today, enraged because i was fucking around in a pointless noob tier 3v3 (wtf) and told me to go "adam" myself. As a person who's normally making fun of people who say they are offended, this actually offended me pretty hard. Who knew he could be such a douchebag..
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it would be hard to do a adam ..maybe lots of meth/cocain +sticking a wire in a 110 socket to go out by a heart.
u could drink whiskey alot (doing the slash)and in about 10 years udd be getting pretty weak then go run in a marathon!
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also i'd like to add I witnessed Sepi have a massive meltdown today, enraged because i was fucking around in a pointless noob tier 3v3 (wtf) and told me to go "adam" myself. As a person who's normally making fun of people who say they are offended, this actually offended me pretty hard. Who knew he could be such a douchebag..
i cant say it offends me but it is a majorly douchebag comment lol
although ive seen people say "soth yourself" for years :X
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Map is fine, learn it and stop crying
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Map is fine, learn it and stop crying
Without crying there would be no war2.
Sent from my Motorola DynaTAC 8000X using Tapatalk
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Map is fine, learn it and stop crying
Without crying there would be no war2.
Sent from my Motorola DynaTAC 8000X using Tapatalk
Don't you mean there would be no Equinox?
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Map is fine, learn it and stop crying
Without crying there would be no war2.
Sent from my Motorola DynaTAC 8000X using Tapatalk
Don't you mean there would be no Equinox?
[emoji23]
Sent from my Motorola DynaTAC 8000X using Tapatalk
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gow 1v1's among pro players is indeed extremely boring to watch. they've learned the safest strats (typically 7-8 grunts with cat, then race to lust) and whoever has the best unit control, timing, and resource management typically wins.. The only exception is with a few players like Its_hot_in_herr who play unconventionally. The people who try to make the games fun rather than focus strictly on winning. Those 1's can be really interesting.
In 2v2 though the games are completely different and gow is such a versatile map (especially for team games imo) that it's rare you see the same type of games back to back.
The problem isnt gow/ef, it's people who dont want to put in the time or effort to understand it and get good... but i'm all for playing other maps as well.
I just dont think there are any other maps as complex as gow played on even faster speed.
agreed - noobs don't know how to rush anymore
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The problem with gow ef is that you don't know how to play.
Gow is fine.
Also i dont think you have any basics of strategy, that's why, even tho i dont know you, you should quit this game.
Everything you see when u watch two good players playing a gow ef game is all been studied perfectly,based on experience and lots of games of trying to find the exact way to do things, building differently everytime would be itself a mistake.
Writing a post crying because you see someone building exactly the same way doesn't make you gain any credit, on the contrary, makes you look like a complete newb and idiot.
Instead, you should of just ASK why certain players build always the same.
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I beat lego 3-0 (with watchers) when he got 'good'. He had a fucking meltdown, called me a hacker, refused to play me and asked to boot me from games. His menstruation days are over it seems though.
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1v1 anytime lightbringer...
Trying to remind old scores won't make people think you are still better than me.
I would rape you hard as fuck.
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I would rape you hard as fuck.
Medivh, will you be using a condom or will you be going in raw dog? [/td][/tr][/table]
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The problem with gow ef is that you don't know how to play.
Gow is fine.
Also i dont think you have any basics of strategy, that's why, even tho i dont know you, you should quit this game.
Everything you see when u watch two good players playing a gow ef game is all been studied perfectly,based on experience and lots of games of trying to find the exact way to do things, building differently everytime would be itself a mistake.
Writing a post crying because you see someone building exactly the same way doesn't make you gain any credit, on the contrary, makes you look like a complete newb and idiot.
Instead, you should of just ASK why certain players build always the same.
Actually the problem is that you missed the point completely. I don't know if its because english is not your first language, or that you're not smart enough, or that your instantaneous rage you always display on War2 came up too fast and stopped you from thinking clearly. "You should quit this game." Settle down kid.
Yes, there is a reason people build the way they do. Obviously. My point is that for any build at any location, it can only be attacked a finite amount of ways. If everyone builds the same, that means they are constantly defending the same finite ways their base can be attacked, and attacking others in the same finite ways they can attack. Because its the same both ways. And after a small amount of time, you see these same things so much that you know exactly how to defend it because you've done everything there is to do already.
I do agree with others that posted here that team old/ef games are different and give a lot more variety and chaos. [/td][/tr][/table]
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1v1 anytime lightbringer...
Trying to remind old scores won't make people think you are still better than me.
I would rape you hard as fuck.
I am not trying to remind scores. I do not care if the series is 3-0 in my favour or 3-100 in your favour. I am just talking of the meltdown you had pretty much like meltdown sepi had vs allstar....
I will play you no problems, get raped no problems and take my loss like a fucking man because
i) I'm a fucking man
ii) It's just a fucking game.
Thanks. No harm intended.[/td][/tr][/table]
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also i'd like to add I witnessed Sepi have a massive meltdown today, enraged because i was fucking around in a pointless noob tier 3v3 (wtf) and told me to go "adam" myself. As a person who's normally making fun of people who say they are offended, this actually offended me pretty hard. Who knew he could be such a douchebag..
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