Warcraft II Forum

General => Moderated General Discussion => Topic started by: LiveFreeorDie on December 03, 2017, 03:37:12 PM

Title: WOMEN'S RIGHTS and FEMINISM
Post by: LiveFreeorDie on December 03, 2017, 03:37:12 PM
The issue of women's rights and feminism was slightly touched on, but no detail was really given as to why I said what I said regarding women's rights, which I actually can't find right now, but it was something about women in America today having too many rights.

A critical and apparently bewildered user replied with:

so babyshark is in one thread rambling on about how islam mistreats women while in another thread crying that women have too many freedoms like the freedom to choose to abort a fetus or not. you can't make this shit up  ;D ;D ;D


to which I replied

Both starvation and obesity are bad.

There is such a thing as balance.


I am going to explain what I am talking about here.

IN America, women currently have FIVE legal rights which MEN do not. They have not truly wanted EQUALITY as they claim, but DOMINION and SUPREMACY.

1. Once a man and woman have created a new human life that has started to form, the MOTHER can legally opt out of parenthood (morning after pill, abortion, dropping baby off with safe haven laws that allow baby to be abandoned to the care of the state, and adoption). The FATHER can NOT legally opt out of parenting (he cannot "financially abort" his child if he changes his mind about being a dad or did not want to become one in the first place.) A father who WANTS his baby CANNOT protect his child legally. WOMEN can choose parenthood. MEN can NOT.

2. FEMALE babies are legally in USA protected from genital mutilation (female "circumcision" commonly practised in 3rd world countries to remove possibility of sexual pleasure for women). MALE babies are not protected from circumcision (yes, ofc a less invasive and less damaging procedure, but all the same, a procedure for which the patient does not and is not able to give consent).

3. Women in USA can access federal services and vote without signing up to be drafted to military service. MEN do not have this right. A MAN has to sign up to be draft-able to be disposed of and die in a war. Women can vote for who will send these men to war, but women themselves do not need to be in the military. If women really wanted EQUAL rights, they would also be pushing that all women are able to be drafted to military service to the same extent men are with exceptions for age and health and so on.

4. When parents break up, women are always automatically favored for custody of the children. If a man wants equal custody, he needs to hire lawyers and other expensive professionals to prove that he is equally capable of parenting his children. He can win, but because of the prohibitive cost, most men can't afford to fight this.

5. Rape and sexual assault against women is DEFINED as rape and sexual assault. "Unwanted non-consensual sex that involves penetration of any orifice with any object." Women who coerce men into sex and rape men cannot be accused of rape because of the sexist definition of rape. Women cannot be rapists, apparently...just because they are female.

How many women breadwinners who make more than their ex-husband actually pay alimony?

When the Supreme Court ruled that, okay, women, you can have equality. If you were the higher earner, you are required to pay your ex-husband like husbands are required to pay for ex-wives. NO FAIR, scream the angry women.

http://time.com/money/4116161/alimony-reform-spousal-support/ (http://time.com/money/4116161/alimony-reform-spousal-support/)

Also, on TV/movies, you see women belittling, insulting, and smacking men. If the man were to do the EXACT same thing or say the exact same thing, he would be called sexist chauvinist abusive pig.

Here is a video demonstrating blatant feminist hypocrisy (ie. insulting/"body shaming" male body but judging same when done to a woman, women touching man's chest intimately/sexually without his consent, objectifying men, etc.):

How the Olympics is exposing feminist hypocrisy - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D03h8JSgW04#)

These are cases where women's rights EXCEED men's rights, and go to show that EQUALITY is not what they are after, but rather SUPREMACY.

Title: Re: WOMEN'S RIGHTS and FEMINISM
Post by: LiveFreeorDie on December 03, 2017, 03:46:36 PM
"I have the right to not be called fat if I'm a woman, even if I am!"

is VERY

VERY

VERRRRRRY

different from basic human rights that women are deprived of in Islamic nations.

Right to medical care
Right to drive a car
Right to choose who to marry
Right to show your face in public without being killed
Right to talk to male people
Right to leave your home by yourself
Right to not be raped
Right to not be stoned for adultery after being raped
Right to education
Right to not be mutilated and have sexual pleasure organ removed

Women and men should both have basic human rights and freedoms.

When women want MORE rights than men, MORE freedoms than men, LESS responsibility than men, LESS accountability than men, then I have a problem. Women in America have too many rights.

Women in Muslim countries have too few. They do not have basic human rights that men have, including education and medical care, unless they have consent from their male keepers.

This woman who was once a Muslim, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, is an educated woman who has left Islam and become an atheist, and speaks honestly and respectfully about her past religion. She has written several books including Infidel: My Life, Nomad: From Islam to America, The Caged Virgin, and Heretic: Why Islam Needs a Reformation Now.

She shares her views in the video below:

Ayaan Hirsi Ali - Islam & Women's Rights - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlk-0g30a9s#)

Title: Re: WOMEN'S RIGHTS and FEMINISM
Post by: tora is a simp bitch for billionaires on December 03, 2017, 04:52:44 PM
Quote
There is such a thing as balance.

yea and your idea of balance is some rights for women but not too many. your argument is essentially saying women need to be kept in line and not overstep their boundaries in a man's world.

Title: Re: WOMEN'S RIGHTS and FEMINISM
Post by: Ze_sAiNt on December 04, 2017, 10:05:14 AM
different from basic human rights that women are deprived of in Islamic nations.

Right to medical care
Right to drive a car
Right to choose who to marry
Right to show your face in public without being killed
Right to talk to male people
Right to leave your home by yourself
Right to not be raped
Right to not be stoned for adultery after being raped
Right to education
Right to not be mutilated and have sexual pleasure organ removed

What a load of crap.  I live in the United Arab Emirates, which is an Islamic nation, and I can tell you that whatever you wrote above is a lie.

Who is feeding you this information?  Where are your sources?  Why are you trying to deceive the readers with lies?  Is that what your religion teaches you - lying and deceiving others?

Get your facts right and stop spouting BS around on the forum just because you suffer from Islamophobia.  Be Christian enough to at least speak the truth.
Title: Re: WOMEN'S RIGHTS and FEMINISM
Post by: tora is a simp bitch for billionaires on December 04, 2017, 10:58:06 AM
She her sources are white supremacists on youtube.
Title: Re: WOMEN'S RIGHTS and FEMINISM
Post by: LiveFreeorDie on December 04, 2017, 05:35:50 PM
different from basic human rights that women are deprived of in Islamic nations.

Right to medical care
Right to drive a car
Right to choose who to marry
Right to show your face in public without being killed
Right to talk to male people
Right to leave your home by yourself
Right to not be raped
Right to not be stoned for adultery after being raped
Right to education
Right to not be mutilated and have sexual pleasure organ removed


What a load of crap.  I live in the United Arab Emirates, which is an Islamic nation, and I can tell you that whatever you wrote above is a lie.

Who is feeding you this information?  Where are your sources?  Why are you trying to deceive the readers with lies?  Is that what your religion teaches you - lying and deceiving others?

Get your facts right and stop spouting BS around on the forum just because you suffer from Islamophobia.  Be Christian enough to at least speak the truth.


There are MANY actual testimonies from formerly Muslim women whose testimony all line up about the oppression women experience in Muslim majority nations. Here are a handful of them, again:


[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58w884vRrl0#[/url] ([url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58w884vRrl0#[/url]) Ex-Muslim Woman Warns America, THEY'RE HERE TO KILL YOU! - YouTube

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yUJZ6fErmw#[/url] ([url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yUJZ6fErmw#[/url]) Woman Leaves Islam, After READING the Quran for Herself - YouTube

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7ojKL8A7qQ#[/url] ([url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7ojKL8A7qQ#[/url]) Ex-Muslim Woman Told The Truth About Islam And What She's Telling Will Shock You - YouTube

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WG_N3QltrWY#[/url] ([url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WG_N3QltrWY#[/url]) Sarah Haider: Ex-Muslim - YouTube




You also completely ignored ex-Muslim woman Ayaan Hirsi Ali's testimony above. I gather you didn't even watch or listen to anything she had to say.

Eyewitness testimony from Arab ex-Muslim women is 100% valid evidence.

This is nothing to do with race, and people who keep insisting that any criticism of Islam is "racist" or "Islamophobic" are being intentionally hard-headed and irrational. Even these Arab women have been accused of being racist and Islamophobic for telling the truth about Islam. Reasonable objections to Islam include disapproval of violence toward non-Muslims or oppression toward women, as well as the less frequently mentioned violence against young boys and men who are sent to go blow themselves up for Allah so they can obtain 72 virgins in Muslim paradise (http://www.albatrus.org/english/religions/islam/72virgins_and_boys.htm (http://www.albatrus.org/english/religions/islam/72virgins_and_boys.htm)).

This eradication of large numbers of males allows for the more powerful Muslims to have 4 wives each, since birth rates worldwide are generally close to 50/50.

Besides eyewitness testimony from Arab women, we also have the video taped words of Muslim men. Here Muslim men themselves share their views on a girl outside, alone and with her face and hair showing, saying things like "I'd shake her hard and hang her up there by an electric cord."

Muslim opinions on Women - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQHE_JVrzt0#)

The evidence is everywhere and there is so much of it that it's impossible to post even 1% of it. It's common knowledge that Islam oppresses women and that Muslim men treat women worse than dirt.

You have accused me with the empty label "Islamophobe". Would you care to explain what this term means?

Phobias are irrational fears.

Fear of Islam is not irrational, like the fear of mice or spiders that can't actually hurt you. If there is fear of Islam, it's based on widespread evidence and fact.

And if there is fear of Islam in the fantasy event that Islam is actually a super nice and super peaceful and super tolerant religion, then do you really think the best way to counter that fear is by flinging personal attacks at the fearful misinformed? (Ie. You're worthless! You're retarded! You're sick! You're pathetic!) That actually does not help your cause, because it showcases that the aggression and hostility is coming from the 3 self-proclaimed Muslim men (Ze_Saint, lightbringer, Tora).

All I am doing is raising points for discussion, because I care about people. I care about Islamic women who suffer in many ways. I care about Islamic young boys who are brainwashed to go blow themselves up for Allah. I care about non-Muslim people who want to live in peace and freedom and who may not want to embrace the ways of Islam or have Sharia law forced on them, or be given the choice to convert to Islam, get out of town, or be killed.

I am attacking a belief system because every belief system deserves to be questioned, especially belief systems that are used to propagate hate towards Jews, Christians, women, Muslim hypocrites, and infidels, according to the teachings of the Quran.

I am treating the individuals with respect even when I disagree with their views, and even when they use personal attacks (you're retarded, you're pathetic, you're sick, you're worthless) and are unable to actually discuss issues or look at the evidence.

They completely ignore the evidence in all the numerous videos of actual Arab people telling the truth about Islam.

Here are more Muslims talking about their beliefs:

Muslim Bloopers-Telling what they really believe- Must see - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ljqinq4abEA#)

So don't say I don't "have evidence". That's nonsense.
Title: Re: WOMEN'S RIGHTS and FEMINISM
Post by: LiveFreeorDie on December 04, 2017, 05:49:01 PM
Article specifically about United Arab Emirates anti-woman discrimination:

https://www.hrw.org/news/2015/03/08/time-take-action-women-united-arab-emirates (https://www.hrw.org/news/2015/03/08/time-take-action-women-united-arab-emirates)
Title: Re: WOMEN'S RIGHTS and FEMINISM
Post by: LiveFreeorDie on December 04, 2017, 06:14:53 PM
She her sources are white supremacists on youtube.

@marx was right

There is a Moderation Policy in effect in this section of the forum against libel and defamation. If you are unable to substantiate this claim with evidence, it will be considered libel (a published false statement that is damaging to a person's reputation; a written defamation) and will result in a one week ban. You have one week from this time to make your case backed with evidence that I have ever in my lifetime cited a single "white supremacist" Youtube source.

You are welcome to criticize actual evidence, actual testimony, and provide your own testimony and evidence, but false wild accusations and lies will not be tolerated.

Flaming is 100% disallowed in this section of the forum. Posters are encouraged to limit their posting here to substantive, conversationally ethical posts relevant to the topic of the thread & to express any disagreement they may have with any individual or stance in a coherent & respectful way. Other things which are highly discouraged & likely to result in punitive measures (determined on a case by case basis via the application of common sense) include: content that is harmful, threatening, abusive, harassing, torturous, defamatory, vulgar, obscene*, libelous, invasive of another's privacy, hateful, racially, ethnically or otherwise objectionable or generally unlawful.*
Title: Re: WOMEN'S RIGHTS and FEMINISM
Post by: tora is a simp bitch for billionaires on December 04, 2017, 06:17:39 PM
Lauren Southern is a white supremacist for one.
Title: Re: WOMEN'S RIGHTS and FEMINISM
Post by: tora is a simp bitch for billionaires on December 04, 2017, 06:20:18 PM
Did we ever get an explanation of why we let this racist moderate what is apparently supposed to be a serious forum?
Title: Re: WOMEN'S RIGHTS and FEMINISM
Post by: LiveFreeorDie on December 04, 2017, 07:27:48 PM
Lauren Southern is a white supremacist for one.


white su·prem·a·cy
noun
noun: white supremacy; plural noun: white supremacies

    the belief that white people are superior to those of all other races, especially the black race, and should therefore dominate society.

You need to prove that she believes this.

Your claims of racism are completely false and slanderous.

I've said this before and I'll say it again. God made all people and loves all people, and wants His people to love all people too, even enemies. "Race" is not even a scientific concept. There is only one race, the human race. All colors and sizes and varieties of human are exactly the same race, HUMAN.

https://answersingenesis.org/racism/bill-nye-agrees-theres-no-such-thing-as-race/ (https://answersingenesis.org/racism/bill-nye-agrees-theres-no-such-thing-as-race/)

http://www.newsweek.com/there-no-such-thing-race-283123 (http://www.newsweek.com/there-no-such-thing-race-283123)

http://www.iflscience.com/environment/science-says-there-no-such-thing-race/ (http://www.iflscience.com/environment/science-says-there-no-such-thing-race/)

http://newsreel.org/guides/race/pressreleasecredit.htm (http://newsreel.org/guides/race/pressreleasecredit.htm)

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/entry/race-is-not-biological_us_56b8db83e4b04f9b57da89ed (http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/entry/race-is-not-biological_us_56b8db83e4b04f9b57da89ed)

There are only varieties of human beings. The concept of different "races" is invented.

Racism comes from evolutionistic and nonsensical thinking, that white people are more evolved than black people. I've already shown you quotes from Darwin and Darwin's bulldog that they certainly promoted racist thinking. So did Hitler. He used Darwin's philosophy to promote an Arian race and wanted to help out evolution by eliminating less evolved "creatures" from the gene pool to purify and promote progress. His actions were obviously against God and the Bible, and Hitler also killed thousands of Christian clergy who would have protested what was happening at the time.

IF evolution is true, and that we are just random accidents and just atoms randomly bouncing around in space waiting to die, that came about without purpose and exist without purpose and will die without purpose, then you have no logical way to say that racism is bad. Or that ANYTHING is good or bad. You assume an absolute standard of good and bad (ie. murdering people is bad) and because there IS an absolute standard of good and evil, as we all as humans know from our God-given consciences, there has to be a setter of absolute standards, namely, God.

Racism does not come from God or the Bible. It comes from evolutionistic thinking, which is also illogical, unscientific baloney without evidence.

Acts 17-26-28

 26 And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, 27 so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28 for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also His offspring.’

If you continue to call me a racist when the evidence is clearly not supporting that statement, you will be removed from this section of the forum.

Your claims need to be backed by evidence.

Questioning Islam (beliefs, ideas) does NOT equal thinking I am better than people of other skin colors.
Title: Re: WOMEN'S RIGHTS and FEMINISM
Post by: tora is a simp bitch for billionaires on December 04, 2017, 08:59:12 PM
she defends white supremacist richard spencer (the same man that makes hitler salutes and wrote an article questioning whether black people deserve to exist...) she uses neo-nazi group "proud boys" as her personal bodyguards when she's out trolling and pretending she's a reporter... she defends white nationalism and says it's not the same as white supremacy..

"I've said this before and I'll say it again. God made all people and loves all people, and wants His people to love all people too, even enemies. "Race" is not even a scientific concept."

because race is a social construct doesn't mean racism isn't real. so i don't know what point you think you're making.
Title: Re: WOMEN'S RIGHTS and FEMINISM
Post by: LiveFreeorDie on December 04, 2017, 10:21:03 PM
@marx was right

Can you provide direct quotes from Lauren Southern? Articles, videos? I want to investigate your claims further.

Now that you have expanded on the labels and are starting to present something more resembling a viewpoint, even though I disagree with it, you are welcome to share it. Please in the future provide more information and evidence to support your points as that is more productive to learning and conversation.

Just throwing derogatory labels around is counterproductive and serves to separate rather than bring people into more understanding of each other's points of view.

You have averted the ban. Please do bring more information as I would like to learn more about your perspective.

I can tell you that I am not a racist and don't appreciate being labelled one, as racism actually stands against the Bible and my personal deeply held convictions about all people being equally valuable to God on account that He created them and loves them.

If you want to address specific points, specific interviews, comments, evidences that I have presented, please do so.
Title: Re: WOMEN'S RIGHTS and FEMINISM
Post by: Ze_sAiNt on December 05, 2017, 08:33:33 AM
@BabyShark

I appreciate you taking the time to reply to my posts, some of them at least for the time being.  I reckon that my posts have been quite lengthy - just as much as yours have been at times given the new arguments that are being brought up by both of us.

That said, I cannot understand why you are getting so worked up and being overly sensitive when being called 'pathetic' or 'sick'.  Your Lord and Savior Jesus Christ uses worse adjectives in your Holy Bible when he addressed others, including his own disciples for crying out loud.  Here are a few examples:

"O you of little faith..." [Matthew 14:31]

"O ye of little faith..." [Matthew 6:30]

"O ye of little faith..." [Matthew 8:26]

"You blind fools..." [Matthew 23:17]

"You wicked and adulterous generation..." [Matthew 12:39]

"O generation of vipers..." [Matthew 12:34]

"Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers..." [Matthew 23:33]

"You hypocrite..." [Matthew 7:5]

"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!..." [Matthew 23:13-15, 23]


By God, if Jesus were to speak on this forum, he will be the first one to get banned for using such offensive connotations!


Read the Bible and realize that what I said is insipid as compared to the language Jesus uses.  Jesus Christ, in addressing his own mother(Mary) at the wedding at Cana, said to her:

"WOMAN, what have I to do with thee..." [John 2:4]

He again uses the word "woman" to address his mother in John 19:26.

Now tell me, is that how you address your own mother?  How inappropriate and disrespectful!  Isn't there such a word as "mother" or "mom" in Hebrew or in English?

Jesus uses the same word "Woman" when addressing a prostitute at the Mount of Olives:

"Jesus stood up and said to her, “WOMAN, where are they? Has no one condemned you?”" [John 8:10]





There are MANY actual testimonies from formerly Muslim women whose testimony all line up about the oppression women experience in Muslim majority nations. Here are a handful of them, again:

Quote from: BabyShark on November 11, 2017, 10:08:36 AM

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58w884vRrl0#[/url] ([url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58w884vRrl0#[/url]) Ex-Muslim Woman Warns America, THEY'RE HERE TO KILL YOU! - YouTube

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yUJZ6fErmw#[/url] ([url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yUJZ6fErmw#[/url]) Woman Leaves Islam, After READING the Quran for Herself - YouTube

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7ojKL8A7qQ#[/url] ([url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7ojKL8A7qQ#[/url]) Ex-Muslim Woman Told The Truth About Islam And What She's Telling Will Shock You - YouTube

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WG_N3QltrWY#[/url] ([url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WG_N3QltrWY#[/url]) Sarah Haider: Ex-Muslim - YouTube




You also completely ignored ex-Muslim woman Ayaan Hirsi Ali's testimony above. I gather you didn't even watch or listen to anything she had to say.

Eyewitness testimony from Arab ex-Muslim women is 100% valid evidence.


Ever since you started those threads about Islam and Christianity, you have made a conscious effort in cherry picking the YouTube videos that talk against Islam, which first of all are just a minority's opinion and secondly, are by no means a representative sample of the whole muslim community.  As I said before, I am living in the UAE and I'm sure there are many non-muslims who have also been to UAE either as expatriates or as visitors.  They will be able to testify on the following (given that you probably think my opinion is biased):

"basic human rights that women are deprived of in Islamic nations."

Right to medical care - nonsense... it is the Law in UAE that everyone, irrespective of gender, has to be provided with medical insurance
Right to drive a car - please check the statistics of women drivers in the UAE before making such a claim
Right to choose who to marry - if any guardian prevents a woman under his care to marry someone righteous, this is totally against the teachings of the Islam.  You cannot single out a few cases and believe this is the common practice
Right to show your face in public without being killed - absurd... again, another baseless claim coming from a Christian who has probably never been to the Middle East.  I welcome you to come see for yourself.
Right to talk to male people - seriously??? this is becoming ridiculous now... and I'll stop commenting from this point onwards
Right to leave your home by yourself - refer to my last comment above
Right to not be raped - refer to my last comment above
Right to not be stoned for adultery after being raped - refer to my last comment above
Right to education - refer to my last comment above
Right to not be mutilated and have sexual pleasure organ removed - refer to my last comment above


Your claims are so absurd that it borders comical.



This is nothing to do with race, and people who keep insisting that any criticism of Islam is "racist" or "Islamophobic" are being intentionally hard-headed and irrational. Even these Arab women have been accused of being racist and Islamophobic for telling the truth about Islam. Reasonable objections to Islam include disapproval of violence toward non-Muslims or oppression toward women, as well as the less frequently mentioned violence against young boys and men who are sent to go blow themselves up for Allah so they can obtain 72 virgins in Muslim paradise ([url]http://www.albatrus.org/english/religions/islam/72virgins_and_boys.htm[/url] ([url]http://www.albatrus.org/english/religions/islam/72virgins_and_boys.htm[/url])).

This eradication of large numbers of males allows for the more powerful Muslims to have 4 wives each, since birth rates worldwide are generally close to 50/50.


You keep on attributing women oppression and violence to Islam but have so far failed to quote a single verse IN CONTEXT from the Qur'an about Islam preaching violence.  I am emphasizing on the words "IN CONTEXT" because you have so far only quoted verses without the text that comes before and after them.  To make sure you understand the word 'context', here is the definition: "the parts of something written or spoken that immediately precede and follow a word or passage and clarify its meaning".

Don't point to bad "Muslims"... as much as there are bad Muslims, there are equally bad Christians.  Point to a Qur'anic teaching and say this is wrong and that is wrong.

But now I will quote you a verse from the Bible (which I have already quoted 3 times already which you didn't comment on) where violence is being preached.  And by who?  Jesus Christ himself:

"But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring them hither, and slay them before me." [Luke 19:27]

Come on now, tell everyone how Jesus is preaching you to love your enemies?  By slaying them?

I've said this before and I'll say it again. God made all people and loves all people, and wants His people to love all people too, even enemies.


Can't you see?  Jesus is actually preaching Jihad in the Bible.  Read the verse in context and you will see that Jesus tells about the parable of a King whose subjects hated him and didn't want him to be their King.  So the solution to that everyone is to kill them all.  Simple.

Little wonder George Bernard Shaw said in his writings: "The Bible is the most dangerous book on earth, keep it under lock and key. Keep the Bible out of your children's reach."

The type of things you read in the Bible can poison your children's minds.  Keep it away from them!


The evidence is everywhere and there is so much of it that it's impossible to post even 1% of it. It's common knowledge that Islam oppresses women and that Muslim men treat women worse than dirt.


As I said before, it's time for you to come out of your cocoon and see the world for yourself.  Don't just watch biased YouTube videos and form a judgment thereon.  And again, quote me Qur'anic teachings in context showing the Islam oppresses women and treat women worse than dirt.  I can in fact tell you that the Bible degrades women.  Here are some biblical verses to prove my point:

Women must learn in silence and submission. [1 TIMOTHY 2:11]
Women must veil themselves or shave their heads. [1 CORINTHIANS 11:6]
Women must be subordinate. [1 CORINTHIANS 14:34]
Women were created for men but men were not created for women. [1 CORINTHIANS 11:6]
Women may not teach or have authority over men. [1 TIMOTHY 2:12]
The head of woman is man. [1 CORINTHIANS 11:3]
Women must be silent. [1 TIMOTHY 2:12]
The husband will rule over the wife. [GENESIS 3:16]
It is shameful for a woman to talk in church. [1 CORINTHIANS 14:35]

I reckon you accept the Bible in its entirety to be the word of God, so you, as a Christian should abide by these verses.  If you don't cover your head, you should have your head shaved!  Why don't you follow the teachings in your own Bible?  Double standards?


You have accused me with the empty label "Islamophobe". Would you care to explain what this term means?


Islamophobia means "irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against Islam or people who practice Islam".  This word means exactly what it means and describes you perfectly.


I'll stop here for now... I'll post the rest of my comments afterwards.
Title: Re: WOMEN'S RIGHTS and FEMINISM
Post by: LiveFreeorDie on December 05, 2017, 12:08:32 PM
This is useful discussion of the kind that I welcome. I have limited time atm so I'll just say a few things and more later.

I cannot understand why you are getting so worked up and being overly sensitive when being called 'pathetic' or 'sick'.  Your Lord and Savior Jesus Christ uses worse adjectives in your Holy Bible when he addressed others, including his own disciples for crying out loud.


Think about this. You are saying I'm overly sensitive for not enjoying being repeatedly insulted with things like "you're sick, you're pathetic, you're worthless, you're retarded, you'll never be beautiful and have flat boobs, you're a basement-dwelling drug-addicted loser" yet I am not the one trying to pass laws to stop anyone from SAYING anything against my religion lest my feelings become hurt. That would be the Muslims:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/canada-parliament-anti-islamophobia-motion-pass-muslim-irqa-khalid-david-anderson-racism-faith-a7647851.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/canada-parliament-anti-islamophobia-motion-pass-muslim-irqa-khalid-david-anderson-racism-faith-a7647851.html)

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/thomas-woodley/canada-anti-islamophobia-law_b_12753924.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/thomas-woodley/canada-anti-islamophobia-law_b_12753924.html)

I believe in freedom of speech, but that does not mean I'm not human and don't have human emotions and that I enjoy being trash-talked hatefully. I can handle it though. I'm a grown-up and it has not chased me away. I'm just pointing it out because it is factual that these kinds of insults are being used against me repeatedly, and I am not returning those kinds of insults towards the Muslims, who pretend that they are the victims of "Islamophobia" and people not being compassionate towards them as human beings.

Jesus has authority to point out exactly what people are like because He is God and knows people's thoughts and hearts. You don't and I don't. So it is more productive, if we as limited human beings, instead of assuming people's intentions and motives, simply ask the person why they did or said what they did.

If insults are used because of passion for an argument and passion against injustice, the reason for the outburst or view should be given as well, as Jesus did:

Matthew 23

23 Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples, 2 saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do. 4 For they bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. 5 But all their works they do to be seen by men. They make their phylacteries broad and enlarge the borders of their garments. 6 They love the best places at feasts, the best seats in the synagogues, 7 greetings in the marketplaces, and to be called by men, ‘Rabbi, Rabbi.’ 8 But you, do not be called ‘Rabbi’; for One is your Teacher, the Christ, and you are all brethren. 9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. 10 And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ. 11 But he who is greatest among you shall be your servant. 12 And whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.

13 “But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in. 14 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widows’ houses, and for a pretense make long prayers. Therefore you will receive greater condemnation.

15 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.

16 “Woe to you, blind guides, who say, ‘Whoever swears by the temple, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gold of the temple, he is obliged to perform it.’ 17 Fools and blind! For which is greater, the gold or the temple that sanctifies the gold? 18 And, ‘Whoever swears by the altar, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gift that is on it, he is obliged to perform it.’ 19 Fools and blind! For which is greater, the gift or the altar that sanctifies the gift? 20 Therefore he who swears by the altar, swears by it and by all things on it. 21 He who swears by the temple, swears by it and by Him who dwells in it. 22 And he who swears by heaven, swears by the throne of God and by Him who sits on it.

23 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone. 24 Blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!

25 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cleanse the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of extortion and self-indulgence. 26 Blind Pharisee, first cleanse the inside of the cup and dish, that the outside of them may be clean also.

27 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness. 28 Even so you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.

29 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, 30 and say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.’

31 “Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers’ guilt. 33 Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell? 34 Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, 35 that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.
Jesus Laments over Jerusalem

37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ ”

Jesus tells WHY He is saying these things. The religious leaders of the day were hypocrites. They killed and scourged the prophets God sent (verse 34 Jesus says "I SENT" again showing that He is God). They were guilty of bloodshed of innocent people, but honored the tombs of the prophets they had killed.

They followed laws to a zealous extent like measuring 1/10 of spices to give to God, but did not show mercy or compassion to other people, which God much prefers.

They devoured widows' houses. Instead of taking care of the most vulnerable members of society, like they should have, they took from the poorest, leaving them destitute, homeless, and with nothing. God calls them all kinds of things for their evil deeds. But at the end you see that Jesus loves them. He loved the sinful people, though, and wept over the city of Jerusalem.

Luke 19:41

41 Now as He drew near, He saw the city and wept over it


If you want to talk evil deeds of mine that you are aware of, we can. I certainly am a sinner and have done wrong things in my life and am not innocent.

But I am quite certain that insulting my looks or breasts or making false claims about drug habits are not made to improve the world or help me.

Also, I personally do not consider "woman" an insult. I rather think that thinking "woman" is insulting is insulting.

Edit**Addition:

You keep on attributing women oppression and violence to Islam but have so far failed to quote a single verse IN CONTEXT from the Qur'an about Islam preaching violence.  I am emphasizing on the words "IN CONTEXT" because you have so far only quoted verses without the text that comes before and after them.  To make sure you understand the word 'context', here is the definition: "the parts of something written or spoken that immediately precede and follow a word or passage and clarify its meaning".


If the Quran's orders to kill and/or subjugate, drive out, or slay non-Muslims, apostates, Jews, and Christians are MISUNDERSTOOD by Muslims who are carrying out these orders, why is there not a massive movement within Islam against this "misunderstanding"?

Quran (5:33) – “The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement.”

The above verse includes me, because I am "waging war" against Allah and Muhammad since my belief is that Muhammad was a man, a regular, sinful man (who married a 6 year old girl, Aishah, and consummated the marriage when she was 9) who invented Allah, and that Allah was ultimately Muhammad's sock puppet to make the people around him do what he wanted. I do not believe that a man who marries a child is a perfect example. I believe it's wrong for an adult to have sex with a child. I believe there is evidence that points to Islamic Scriptures as being a human production rather than from some supreme divine being, including scientific inaccuracy and that Allah always gave special favoritism to Muhammad in ways that were essentially Muhammad's own personal preferences. I am not doing this to offend or hurt anyone, but rather the opposite, to help Muslims look carefully at what it is the beliefs are and consider whether the teachings are true, good, and holy, or whether they are flawed and the product of a sinful human being. I know that a lot of people would want to kill me for daring to question Islam and Muhammad. We all have to die some day. Honestly, it's the torture before death part that scares me more. I care about Muslim people. I do not think I'm better than them. I want to see Muslim people, both men and women, experience real love, the love of God, and real freedom from the burdens of Islamic teaching that lay many rules and laws, but apparently no certainty or comfort of being able to obtain heaven, especially if you are a woman (since Islamic hell is supposedly full of women because they are inferior), but even if you are a man, because you never know if you have been good enough or done enough. I feel certain that there must be Muslim men who WANT to love their daughters and protect their daughters, sisters, wives, but the culture requires them to treat them a certain way. I think it's NATURAL to love your own family, and that all humans, both men and women want to be loved for who they are and treated with kindness and gentleness.

Quran (4:95) – “Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward.”

Quran (2:191-193) – “And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief] is worse than killing…but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful.   And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone.  But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)”

Quran (2:216) – “Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not.”  Not only does this verse establish that violence can be virtuous, but it also contradicts the myth that fighting is intended only in self-defense, since the audience was obviously not under attack at the time.  From the Hadith, we know that this verse was narrated at a time that Muhammad was actually trying to motivate his people into raiding merchant caravans for loot.

Quran (4:74) – “Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward.”

Quran (4:89) – “They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks.”

Quran (8:39) – “And fight with them until there is no more fitna (disorder, unbelief) and religion should be only for Allah”

(These quotes are taken from http://taylormarshall.com/2015/01/islam-really-peaceful-religion-quotes-quran.html (http://taylormarshall.com/2015/01/islam-really-peaceful-religion-quotes-quran.html))

If these verses are misunderstood by the average reader, including the average Muslim, to actually mean what they say, as opposed to meaning something other than what they say, then why are the Muslims who "truly understand" the verses not crying out in masses against the Muslims who misunderstand (and actually carry out jihad against infidels) and talk about dominating the world, as seen here?:

Muslim Bloopers-Telling what they really believe- Must see - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ljqinq4abEA#)

Your verse from Jesus was actually taken completely out of context, and He was certainly not instructing His followers to kill anyone, and you do not see Christians going around en masse killing people in the name of Jesus. For someone who was criticizing taking things out of context, it's surprising that you went ahead and did just that so soon after.

Here is the framework of the verse you quoted from Luke 19. Jesus was telling a PARABLE. A story! It is part of an illustration that Jesus was using to teach the people, and not at all a command for Christians then or now to go killing people.

Luke 19:11-27

11 Now as they heard these things, He spoke another parable, because He was near Jerusalem and because they thought the kingdom of God would appear immediately. 12 Therefore He said: “A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom and to return. 13 So he called ten of his servants, delivered to them ten minas, and said to them, ‘Do business till I come.’ 14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a delegation after him, saying, ‘We will not have this man to reign over us.’

15 “And so it was that when he returned, having received the kingdom, he then commanded these servants, to whom he had given the money, to be called to him, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading. 16 Then came the first, saying, ‘Master, your mina has earned ten minas.’ 17 And he said to him, ‘Well done, good servant; because you were faithful in a very little, have authority over ten cities.’ 18 And the second came, saying, ‘Master, your mina has earned five minas.’ 19 Likewise he said to him, ‘You also be over five cities.’

20 “Then another came, saying, ‘Master, here is your mina, which I have kept put away in a handkerchief. 21 For I feared you, because you are an austere man. You collect what you did not deposit, and reap what you did not sow.’ 22 And he said to him, ‘Out of your own mouth I will judge you, you wicked servant. You knew that I was an austere man, collecting what I did not deposit and reaping what I did not sow. 23 Why then did you not put my money in the bank, that at my coming I might have collected it with interest?’

24 “And he said to those who stood by, ‘Take the mina from him, and give it to him who has ten minas.’ 25 (But they said to him, ‘Master, he has ten minas.’) 26 ‘For I say to you, that to everyone who has will be given; and from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. 27 But bring here those enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, and slay them before me.’”



Jesus actually said His people should love and pray for enemies.

Matthew 5:43-45

43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.


I do pray for you, and as I learn more, I am developing more of a heart for Muslims, men and women and children, who are bound in this system. My hope is for them to know the amazing love of God and the freedom of knowing their sins are forgiven in Jesus Christ!

Title: Re: WOMEN'S RIGHTS and FEMINISM
Post by: LiveFreeorDie on December 05, 2017, 12:22:06 PM
The women who share their stories, you call biased. In what way are they biased? Did you even listen to them? Do you think they are lying? What evidence do you have to support that? Why are there so many vast numbers of people who tell very similar stories? I am completely convinced that these women are telling the truth. If you want to convince people otherwise, you will need evidence that they are lying or confused or I don't even know what you would say about these women. Why do you think they are telling a story if the story they are telling is anything other than the truth? What would motivate someone to say their religion is bad and oppressive if in fact their experience was wonderful? What would motivate a teenager to run away from home if her family was so loving and not trying to kill her for converting to Christianity, as in the case of Rifqa Bary (the first video)? I know that I never tried to run away from my loving parents or accuse them of abusing me...because they were loving parents and did not abuse me or try to kill me.

Why Rifqa Bary Fled Islam to Follow Jesus - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfrVcVRZyJg#)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58w884vRrl0# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58w884vRrl0#)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yUJZ6fErmw# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yUJZ6fErmw#)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7ojKL8A7qQ# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7ojKL8A7qQ#)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WG_N3QltrWY# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WG_N3QltrWY#)

Afghan women share stories of surviving abuse - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2X2hGQ7V_Ro#)

Afghan child bride tortured for six months - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fHqA4GQxsE#)

There are so, so, so many stories and documentaries and testimonies of abuse of women within Islam that is allowed and sanctioned by Islam.

How can you say there is no evidence? How can you say believing these women's stories is "absurd"?

Did you even watch them or listen to these women? If not, how can you assume they are biased? If yes, tell me any reason why you would think it is not sensible to believe these women?

It isn't only women who report these issues. President of Ex-Muslims of America Muhammad Syed also reports the same things, including that Islamic Scriptures teach that the primary denizens of hell are women, that women have half the intellect and half the religiosity of men, that they don't have equal rights in inheriting property, that the Quran teaches that husbands are allowed to beat their wives.

Examining Honor Culture and Violence in Islam (AHA Conference 2016) - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhwrOJvPfBw#)

Title: Re: WOMEN'S RIGHTS and FEMINISM
Post by: LiveFreeorDie on December 05, 2017, 12:35:33 PM
Ever since you started those threads about Islam and Christianity, you have made a conscious effort in cherry picking the YouTube videos that talk against Islam, which first of all are just a minority's opinion and secondly, are by no means a representative sample of the whole muslim community.  As I said before, I am living in the UAE and I'm sure there are many non-muslims who have also been to UAE either as expatriates or as visitors.  They will be able to testify on the following (given that you probably think my opinion is biased):

"basic human rights that women are deprived of in Islamic nations."

Right to medical care - nonsense... it is the Law in UAE that everyone, irrespective of gender, has to be provided with medical insurance
Right to drive a car - please check the statistics of women drivers in the UAE before making such a claim
Right to choose who to marry - if any guardian prevents a woman under his care to marry someone righteous, this is totally against the teachings of the Islam.  You cannot single out a few cases and believe this is the common practice
Right to show your face in public without being killed - absurd... again, another baseless claim coming from a Christian who has probably never been to the Middle East.  I welcome you to come see for yourself.
Right to talk to male people - seriously??? this is becoming ridiculous now... and I'll stop commenting from this point onwards
Right to leave your home by yourself - refer to my last comment above
Right to not be raped - refer to my last comment above
Right to not be stoned for adultery after being raped - refer to my last comment above
Right to education - refer to my last comment above
Right to not be mutilated and have sexual pleasure organ removed - refer to my last comment above


Your claims are so absurd that it borders comical.


I do not know how things are in UAE, but there are Islamic nations where women ARE deprived of these basic rights:

Right to drive (it was recently announced that Saudi Arabia plans to allow women the legal right to drive starting next summer - it is great wherever progress is being made)

http://time.com/4962707/saudi-arabia-women-driving-license/ (http://time.com/4962707/saudi-arabia-women-driving-license/)

Right to marry, open bank account, get a fair trial, travel, dress how they want (ie. be uncovered), interact with men, seek medical treatment, have custody of children

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/saudi-arabia-womens-rights-driving-ban-lifted-marriage-custody-bank-accounts-travel-medical-a7969551.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/saudi-arabia-womens-rights-driving-ban-lifted-marriage-custody-bank-accounts-travel-medical-a7969551.html)

Out of time for now

EDIT**Added later:

As I said before, it's time for you to come out of your cocoon and see the world for yourself.  Don't just watch biased YouTube videos and form a judgment thereon.  And again, quote me Qur'anic teachings in context showing the Islam oppresses women and treat women worse than dirt.  I can in fact tell you that the Bible degrades women.  Here are some biblical verses to prove my point:

Women must learn in silence and submission. [1 TIMOTHY 2:11]
Women must veil themselves or shave their heads. [1 CORINTHIANS 11:6]
Women must be subordinate. [1 CORINTHIANS 14:34]
Women were created for men but men were not created for women. [1 CORINTHIANS 11:6]
Women may not teach or have authority over men. [1 TIMOTHY 2:12]
The head of woman is man. [1 CORINTHIANS 11:3]
Women must be silent. [1 TIMOTHY 2:12]
The husband will rule over the wife. [GENESIS 3:16]
It is shameful for a woman to talk in church. [1 CORINTHIANS 14:35]

I reckon you accept the Bible in its entirety to be the word of God, so you, as a Christian should abide by these verses.  If you don't cover your head, you should have your head shaved!  Why don't you follow the teachings in your own Bible?  Double standards?


I do not have any issue with male authority and leadership. I can barely think of anything more admirable and beautiful than a loving male leader, whether it is a king or a president or a leader of an organization or a teacher or a coach or a husband and father leading his family. Yes, God gives the authority to males, and I have no issue with this at all.

God instructs husbands to love their wives and wives to submit to and respect their husbands.

Ephesians 5:22-33

22 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body. 24 Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything.

25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, 26 that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, 27 that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish. 28 So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies; he who loves his wife loves himself. 29 For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church. 30 For we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones. 31 “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” 32 This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church. 33 Nevertheless let each one of you in particular so love his own wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.



Christian women are not oppressed. They are protected and loved. Her husband is accountable to God for how he treats and loves her, so his authority comes from love and his decisions are what is best for his family including his wife. I have complete freedom. I can go out, wherever I want, whenever I want, I can take the children places, I can buy groceries, I can travel to America to visit my family, I can meet people, I can go to tennis lessons. I have never in my life been beaten or threatened with beating or physical punishment that damaged or harmed me, ever. I do not have to live in fear. I have freedom and peace. I work to do my best to make a nice home for my family, cooking, cleaning, doing laundry, organizing, teaching, reading, planning, shopping, going on trips because I love my family and want to give them good things. I don't do anything out of fear or force. It is when my husband and I have a difference of opinion that his will wins if I'm unable to persuade him, because in order for any group to function properly, there has to be an ultimate authority so function can continue when there isn't agreement on some issue, so that the family is protected from break-up.

The verses about women learning in silence and submission are in the context of the church. Only men are called to be pastors. Women in the ministry is outside of God's will, as the pastor has authority and God has given that authority within the church to men, not women.

1 Timothy 2:11-15

 11 Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. 12 And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. 15 Nevertheless she will be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control.


1 Corinthians 14:34-45

34 Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says. 35 And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church.


This does not speak about women's inferiority or lesser importance, but about different roles for men and women. God made women the ones who can bear life and give birth and milk. If men are whining about how this is so unfair and unequal and they want to do that job, or if women are whining that they want to be pastors and leaders of families, they are just failing to accept the different roles God gave us. God made men and women different. The differences are beautiful. A man's strength, courage, critical reasoning, desire to protect and provide is a perfect match for a woman's desire to nurture and comfort and serve. Women who are raising children and serving their families are the happiest women I know. They have incredible joy in marriage and children and serving. Women who have rejected family and marriage and have instead pursued casual sex with multiple partners for a long time until their attractiveness wanes and they become lonelier and less and less desirable to men tend to be unhappy and bitter, as are men who end up lonely after a series of sex partners in the absence of love, commitment, and family.

I have no issue with male authority, or with God-given gender roles, or even with women choosing to wear or not wear a headcovering for religious purposes.

My issues are with abusive male authority that beats or otherwise harms the woman he was designed to love and protect, for instance, if she chooses to not wear a headcovering. I have an issues with women being required to share their husbands. Yes this happened in the Bible's recorded history, and yes, I believe it was wrong for them, and no, nowhere in the Bible does God endorse or approve polygamous marriage. Many places are simply history being recorded, such as Jacob marrying Leah and Rachel, plus also sleeping with their maidservants Bilhah and Zilpah. There was animosity and jealousy between the women. There is no example in the entire Bible of polygamous marriage being a happy situation.

I have issues with women being seen as merely property, with their own feelings, desires, freedom, happiness made to be of no importance. Basic human rights and freedoms should be for all people, such as education, travel, medical care, and dressing oneself.

Headcoverings and Christianity

1 Corinthians 11:2-16

2 Now I praise you, brethren, that you remember me in all things and keep the traditions just as I delivered them to you. 3 But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. 4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonors his head. 5 But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, for that is one and the same as if her head were shaved. 6 For if a woman is not covered, let her also be shorn. But if it is shameful for a woman to be shorn or shaved, let her be covered. 7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. 8 For man is not from woman, but woman from man. 9 Nor was man created for the woman, but woman for the man. 10 For this reason the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels. 11 Nevertheless, neither is man independent of woman, nor woman independent of man, in the Lord. 12 For as woman came from man, even so man also comes through woman; but all things are from God.

13 Judge among yourselves. Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? 14 Does not even nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a dishonor to him? 15 But if a woman has long hair, it is a glory to her; for her hair is given to her for a covering. 16 But if anyone seems to be contentious, we have no such custom, nor do the churches of God.


A few points about headcoverings.

1. It's for when a woman is praying or prophesying, not just anytime she goes out or 24/7.
2. Your assumption that I don't wear a headcovering to church is not based on your asking me. You assumed. In this case, you are correct that I don't currently wear a covering to church. I did start wearing a headcovering to church until I discussed it with my pastor, who said it is not necessary, but I am welcome to wear one if I desire. The same thing happened at our former church in another city. I started covering my head in church, and asked the pastor about it, and was told I do not need to do this. I am perfectly willing to wear a headcovering and have no issues with women choosing to wear headcoverings for their religion IF they themselves desire to wear one. I accept the meaning and significance of the headcovering in Christianity, that a woman has the authority of her husband over her, and the authority of God over her, both of whom love her self-sacrificially.
3. There is no coercion or threat of death if a headcovering is not worn, as there is in Islam.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/muhammad-parvez-killer-daughter-hijab-clash-1.4002891 (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/muhammad-parvez-killer-daughter-hijab-clash-1.4002891)

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/2312363/woman-in-saudi-arabia-faces-calls-for-her-execution-after-being-pictured-without-a-hijab/ (https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/2312363/woman-in-saudi-arabia-faces-calls-for-her-execution-after-being-pictured-without-a-hijab/)

http://shoebat.com/2014/03/10/muslims-murder-women-wearing-hijab-2/ (http://shoebat.com/2014/03/10/muslims-murder-women-wearing-hijab-2/)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4025250/Woman-received-death-threats-vowing-without-hijab-Saudi-Arabia-ARRESTED-morality-police-faces-LASHED.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4025250/Woman-received-death-threats-vowing-without-hijab-Saudi-Arabia-ARRESTED-morality-police-faces-LASHED.html)

https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/nsw/woman-who-refused-to-wear-a-hijab-after-her-marriage-allegedly-threatened-by-husband/news-story/9a39fa2abec82cad933cb48cf57c3af0 (https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/nsw/woman-who-refused-to-wear-a-hijab-after-her-marriage-allegedly-threatened-by-husband/news-story/9a39fa2abec82cad933cb48cf57c3af0)

muslim girl Aqsa Parvez killed for not wearing hijab - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpV_cJ5E0wQ#)

Title: Re: WOMEN'S RIGHTS and FEMINISM
Post by: LiveFreeorDie on December 05, 2017, 11:36:46 PM
Slightly different topic related to WOMEN'S RIGHTS AND FEMINISM in USA.

Falsely accusing a man of rape or other sexual misconduct can ruin his reputation and his life.

If a woman accuses a man falsely, her punishment should be the same as his punishment would have been had he been guilty.

There is currently little or no penalty or punishment for women who intentionally and maliciously lie against innocent men.

That is not right.

In addition to ruining the reputation and life of innocent men, false accusers are also taking credibility away from true victims of rape.

The punishment for falsely accusing a man of rape or sexual misconduct should be the same as the punishment for the man would have been had he been guilty.

Title: Re: WOMEN'S RIGHTS and FEMINISM
Post by: LiveFreeorDie on December 06, 2017, 02:44:39 AM
Abortion activist punches peaceful pro-life teen in the head, giving concussion, caught on video

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/i-would-take-a-million-punches-if-it-saved-one-child-teen-assaulted-outside?utm_source=LifeSiteNews.com&utm_campaign=4d05790c23-Canadian_12_5_2017&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_12387f0e3e-4d05790c23-401544561 (https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/i-would-take-a-million-punches-if-it-saved-one-child-teen-assaulted-outside?utm_source=LifeSiteNews.com&utm_campaign=4d05790c23-Canadian_12_5_2017&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_12387f0e3e-4d05790c23-401544561)
Title: Re: WOMEN'S RIGHTS and FEMINISM
Post by: Ze_sAiNt on December 06, 2017, 08:31:42 AM
The women who share their stories, you call biased. In what way are they biased? Did you even listen to them? Do you think they are lying? What evidence do you have to support that? Why are there so many vast numbers of people who tell very similar stories? I am completely convinced that these women are telling the truth. If you want to convince people otherwise, you will need evidence that they are lying or confused or I don't even know what you would say about these women. Why do you think they are telling a story if the story they are telling is anything other than the truth? What would motivate someone to say their religion is bad and oppressive if in fact their experience was wonderful? What would motivate a teenager to run away from home if her family was so loving and not trying to kill her for converting to Christianity, as in the case of Rifqa Bary (the first video)? I know that I never tried to run away from my loving parents or accuse them of abusing me...because they were loving parents and did not abuse me or try to kill me.

Yes, I did watch the short videos but not the longer ones (you cannot reasonably expect me to watch a 1 or 2-hour video!) and as much as I do feel sorry for any woman who has been tortured by her parents or by whoever else, or who has been beaten for not wearing the hijab, or who has been a victim of 'honor killing', these practices are completely against the teachings of Islam.  Whosoever claims to be a muslim and abuses women, whether physically or otherwise, is not a muslim.

A muslim by definition is someone who submits his will to the will of God.  And what is God's will?  What does God want from us?  Let's see what the Qur'an says:

"O mankind, indeed We have created you from male and female and made you peoples and tribes that you may know one another (not that you may despise one another). Indeed, the most noble of you in the sight of Allah is the most righteous of you. Indeed, Allah is Knowing and Acquainted." [Qur'an 49:13].

"I created the jinn and humankind only that they might worship Me." [Qur'an 51:56]

God tells Moses in the Qur'an:

"Indeed, I am Allah. There is no deity except Me, so worship Me and establish prayer for My remembrance." [Qur'an 20:14]


So we understand clearly from these verses that Allah has created man in order to establish prayer for His remembrance, for man to know one another and not to despise one another.  So what about killing others?  Is that what Islam teaches?  Let's look at this further in the Qur'an where the story of Abel and Caen is being related to teach us a lesson about what is right and what is wrong (I am quoting the context so you may better understand):

"But recite unto them with truth the tale of the two sons of Adam, how they offered each a sacrifice, and it was accepted from the one of them and it was not accepted from the other. (The one) said: I will surely kill thee. (The other) answered: Allah accepteth only from those who ward off (evil).

"Even if thou stretch out thy hand against me to kill me, I shall not stretch out my hand against thee to kill thee, lo! I fear Allah, the Lord of the Worlds.

"Lo! I would rather thou shouldst bear the punishment of the sin against me and thine own sin and become one of the owners of the fire. That is the reward of evil-doers.

"But (the other's) mind imposed on him the killing of his brother, so he slew him and became one of the losers.

"Then Allah sent a raven scratching up the ground, to show him how to hide his brother's naked corpse. He said: Woe unto me! Am I not able to be as this raven and so hide my brother's naked corpse? And he became repentant.

"For that cause We decreed for the Children of Israel that whosoever killeth a human being for other than manslaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind, and whoso saveth the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind. Our messengers came unto them of old with clear proofs (of Allah's Sovereignty), but afterwards lo! many of them became prodigals in the earth."
[Qur'an 5:26-32]

In simple words, whosoever kills anybody else deliberately, it is as if he has killed the whole of mankind.

So my Q to you is: why would you then chose to quote verses of the Qur'an out of context to prove an ideology that has been fed to you through the media, social network or otherwise?  I bet you have never read the Qur'an from cover to cover or not even a few pages at a stretch, yet you have the audacity of making comments like "these are the teachings of Islam" and "the Qur'an teaches this and that"...

With regard to enforcing Islam upon others, this is what the Qur'an says:

"There is no compulsion in religion. Certainly, right has become clearly distinct from wrong. Whoever rejects the devil and believes in God has firmly taken hold of a strong handle that never breaks. God is All-hearing and knowing." [Qur'an 2:256]

People are free to believe what they want and are free to practice any religion they want.  However, the truth is clearly distinct from wrong - so people can clearly see what is right and what is wrong and are free to choose their own path.

The most absurd claim against Islam is that it was spread by the sword (i.e forced upon people).  To that, let's see what some famous Christian historians have to say:

De Lacy O’Leary In “Islam At The Crossroads’’ London, 1923

"History makes it clear however, that the legend of fanatical Muslims sweeping through the world and forcing Islam at the point of the sword upon conquered races is one of the most fantastically absurd myths that historians have ever repeated."


Thomas Carlyle In Heroes and Hero-Worship

"The sword; the sword indeed, but where will you get your sword! every new opinion, at its starting, is precisely in a minority of one. In one man’s head alone, there it dwells as yet. One man alone of the whole world believes it; there is one man against all men. That he take a sword, and try to propagate with that, will do little for him. You must first get your sword! on the whole, a thing will propagate itself as it can. We do not find, of the Christian religion either, that it always disdained the sword, when once it had got one. Charlemagne’s conversion of the saxons was not by preaching."

The biggest living proof that Islam did not spread by the sword is that today, you can boast that there are more than 15 million Christians living in Egypt, an Islamic nation.  If there was compulsion of any kind, there would not have been a single Christian left.

The Muslims ruled Spain for 736 years.  However, after eight centuries in Spain, the Muslims were totally eliminated from that country so that not even one man was left to give the Azan (the Muslim call to prayer). If the Muslims had used force, military or economic, there would not have been any Christian left in Spain to have kicked the Muslims out.


Time is against me.  I can't seem to catch up with all your posts.  I will post the rest of my comments later.
Title: Re: WOMEN'S RIGHTS and FEMINISM
Post by: Ze_sAiNt on December 06, 2017, 09:47:55 AM
There are so, so, so many stories and documentaries and testimonies of abuse of women within Islam that is allowed and sanctioned by Islam.

I've been asking for proof from the Qur'an that Islam condones the abuse of women but it seems like my requests have been falling on deaf ears.  Point out to any Qur'anic verse that preaches the abuse of women to prove your claim.

How can you say believing these women's stories is "absurd"?

Do not misquote me.  I never said these women's stories are absurd.  I said YOUR claims about "basic human rights that women are deprived of in Islamic nations" are absurd.  I made a general comment about you watching biased YouTube videos and forming a judgment thereupon.  There are hundreds of videos where non-muslims have testified about finding peace when they converted to Islam - why don't you post those?  That's because you have a preconceived notion that Islam is religion of oppression.

That's why I avoid posting videos from YouTube.  I would rather quote facts, for example, in another post where David Wood was attempting to depict Muhammad as a dictator and an oppressor, I responded by quoting verifiable historical information that was published by famous historians, most of which happen to be Christians.  If you choose to ignore these and prefer to watch selective videos from YouTube, I can only conclude that you are only acting out of prejudice.


I am again running out of time.  More on that afterwards...
Title: Re: WOMEN'S RIGHTS and FEMINISM
Post by: LiveFreeorDie on December 06, 2017, 10:14:28 AM
The Cain and Abel story (which is another version of the story from the Bible in Genesis, again showing that the author was copying other sources but putting his own spin on them) is about MEN. This story has absolutely nothing to do with women, whom the Quran calls spiritually and mentally deficient, and who are allowed to be beaten/scourged by husbands, and with whom Islam's hellfires are predominantly filled.

I'm listening to and considering your views that "real" Islam is peaceful and women are not treated like dirt by "real" Muslims.

If your version of reality is true, why are you not actively calling out other Muslims who do abuse women and who do believe in and promote the killing of Jews, Christians, and other non-Muslims?

(Like the many religious leaders in this video?)

Muslim Bloopers-Telling what they really believe- Must see - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ljqinq4abEA#)

"Brothers, be prepared to fight, be prepared to die, be prepared to kill. It's a part of the faith and this ain't your brother just saying this. This is history, this is Koran, nobody can deny it."

"The Islamic government spread by force. The expansion of the Islamic empire was done by force. There's no question about that."

2:06 "Every Muslim believes in Jihad. Jihad is part of Islam just like Salat (praying/worship) is part of Islam. Today, the Kafir (infidels) want us to delete this aspect of our Din (religion). You can understand why, just in the simple fact of what is the definition of Jihad. You don't do Jihad against Muslims. Jihad is against the infidels. So does it come as any surprise why they don't want Muslims to believe in Jihad? Because they don't want us to do Jihad against them."

3:17 At 3:17 you can see a woman being beaten by a man with an object in broad daylight in public, and no one thinks this is unusual. There is absolutely no reaction from anyone.

Do you fight against the violent Muslims who do oppress women? Are you willing to publicly renounce them and their actions, including promoting the legal prosecution and deportation of criminals?

If you believe that what they are doing is wrong, then prove it. Join those who stand for freedom of speech and human rights for both men and women in denouncing violence against women and innocent civilians wherever it may be found, no matter who is doing it.

Post educational videos publicly showing the two streams of Muslims, and that you and people like you do not believe in or support the actions of the violent ones. Call them out and call them to peaceful conduct and fair and kind treatment of women and girls.

I can guarantee you what would happen if anyone from your community were to find out. The Muslim community would target and ostracize you, possibly threaten your life or your family's life. You would be labelled kafir, infidel, hypocrite, apostate, racist, Islamophobe. The guy in the above video at 2:06 calls you Kafir and also a target of Jihad if you do not believe in Jihad.

I absolutely believe there are people who call themselves Muslims who are peaceful people. But the devout Muslims who follow the Quran and Muhammad call you infidels and are out to kill you as well, since in their eyes you are hypocrites.

This has been the experience of people like Sarah Haider and Muhammad Syed who are founder and president of the organization Ex-Muslims of North America.

There is sharp disagreement and incongruency between the stories of these and other ex-Muslims and your version of reality. Looking at all the evidence I've seen, between video footage and tesimonies and news reports and talking to people who came from Parkistan and Turkey, the evidence I've been presented weighs heavily, heavily in favor of being convinced by the ex-Muslims, who have absolutely nothing to gain by lying against their past religion and putting their own lives at risk. It does not make any sense that they would risk their lives to promote lies.

That's irrational.

Title: Re: WOMEN'S RIGHTS and FEMINISM
Post by: LiveFreeorDie on December 06, 2017, 12:34:59 PM
I've been asking for proof from the Qur'an that Islam condones the abuse of women but it seems like my requests have been falling on deaf ears.  Point out to any Qur'anic verse that preaches the abuse of women to prove your claim.


Qur'an 4:34 (Pickthall)—Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret what Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High Exalted, Great.

The woman doesn't even have to do anything to earn the beating. He only has to "fear" rebellion, and he can send her to her own bed and scourge her.

(https://i.imgur.com/zfA9vFK.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/nYiNKQ5.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/3SSz8Qk.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/HJsynED.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/2NJJl38.jpg)

The following quotes are taken from http://survincity.com/2012/12/in-islamic-countries-there-was-a-book-on-how-to/ (http://survincity.com/2012/12/in-islamic-countries-there-was-a-book-on-how-to/)

Thus, the author of the book "Women in Islam" Mohamed Kamal Mustafa believes that a woman is beaten with a switch (not too thick), as the strikes have to bring it in the first place, "not physical, but spiritual suffering." The author recommends that men "to strike the sensitive parts of the body: face, chest, abdomen, head, and so on."

Finally, the author of the book "On the subordination of women in Islam" Hassan Asha articulates the cases in which a man is to dismiss his hands. Such a method of influence on his wife say if she refuses to smarten up before meeting her husband, does not want to satisfy his sexual needs, neglects her religious duties without permission leaves the house.

(https://i.imgur.com/YB1OPQG.jpg)

Above image taken from https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/quran/wife-beating.aspx (https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/quran/wife-beating.aspx)

The above site also includes the quote listed above that allows men to beat/scourge wives from the Quran, plus quotes from other Islamic texts (Hadith and Sira):

Sahih Bukhari (72:715) - A woman came to Muhammad and begged him to stop her husband from beating her. Her skin was bruised so badly that it is described as being "greener" than the green veil she was wearing. Muhammad did not admonish her husband, but instead ordered her to return to him and submit to his sexual desires.

Sahih Bukhari (72:715) - "Aisha said, 'I have not seen any woman suffering as much as the believing women'" Muhammad's own wife complained Muslim women were abused worse than other women.

Sahih Muslim (4:2127) - Muhammad struck his favorite wife, Aisha, in the chest one evening when she left the house without his permission. Aisha narrates, "He struck me on the chest which caused me pain."

Sahih Muslim (9:3506) - Muhammad's fathers-in-law (Abu Bakr and Umar) amused him by slapping his wives (Aisha and Hafsa) for annoying him. According to the Hadith, the prophet of Islam laughed upon hearing this.

Abu Dawud (2141) - "Iyas bin ‘Abd Allah bin Abi Dhubab reported the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) as saying: Do not beat Allah’s handmaidens, but when ‘Umar came to the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) and said: Women have become emboldened towards their husbands, he (the Prophet) gave permission to beat them." (This is graded sahih - authentic) At first, Muhammad forbade men from beating their wives.  As the hadith indicates, he rescinded this once it was reported that women were becoming emboldened toward their husbands. Beatings in a Muslim marriage were deemed necessary at times to keep the woman in her place.

Abu Dawud (2142) - "The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: A man will not be asked as to why he beat his wife."  The authenticity of this chain of narration is characterized as daif (weak), however, a similar verse from Sunan Ibn Majah 3:9:1986 is said to be hasan (sufficient).

Abu Dawud (2126) - "A man from the Ansar called Basrah said: 'I married a virgin woman in her veil. When I entered upon her, I found her pregnant. (I mentioned this to the Prophet).' The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: 'She will get the dower, for you made her vagina lawful for you. The child will be your slave. When she has begotten (a child), flog her'" A Muslim man thinks he is getting a virgin for a wife, then finds out that she is pregnant. Muhammad tells him to treat the woman as a sex slave and then flog her after she delivers the child.  (Despite multiple chains of narration, this hadith is graded as daif).

Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 969 - Requires that a married woman be "put in a separate room and beaten lightly" if she "act in a sexual manner toward others." According to the Hadith, this can be for an offense as petty as merely being alone with a man to whom she is not related.

Kash-shaf (the revealer) of al-Zamkhshari (Vol. 1, p. 525) - [Muhammad said] "Hang up your scourge where your wife can see it"

http://www.irfi.org/articles/articles_401_450/is_beating_the_woman_in_the_shar.htm (http://www.irfi.org/articles/articles_401_450/is_beating_the_woman_in_the_shar.htm)

I'm certainly not suggesting that all Muslims beat their wives or that all Muslims that do beat their wives beat them or mutilate them as severely. But it is fact that it is common practice and it is commonly done and the men do not face punishment for these things, as the women are seen as his property do with with as he wishes.

I do call out people who call themselves Muslims for NOT calling out other Muslims who DO engage in barbaric, violent, cruel practices against women and girls. If you call yourself a Muslim and do NOT believe that women should be treated in these ways, you should be at the forefront of the voices calling for an end to the violence. The reality is that "Muslims" who want to be peaceful and not live in the manners prescribed by Islam are NOT considered true Muslims by devout Muslims, and will be risking their own lives to speak up. There is a lot of fear about being honest and exposing things that are going on where they are in fact happening.

Surely some countries are more "strict" in their practice than others, as are certain individuals within any given community. There are different brands of Islam and I certainly do not believe that everyone who calls or considers themselves Muslim approves of treating women this way. But those that do speak out and question Islam are branded Kafir and in Muslim majority countries are either ostracized or killed. In America, murder is less common and they are often just hated and villified and threatened, since USA still offers protection to its inhabitants and those who commit murders are normally going to be prosecuted.

But these "honor" killings and abuses do happen and there are real problems that need to be addressed and examined and talked about openly between all the people who do care about the way people are treated, whether they identify as Muslim or atheist or Christian or Jew or whatever else, anyone who cares about human rights and the treatment of abused women WHEREVER it happens BY WHOMEVER it is done and want to put a stop to it should be talking to each other and uniting against the violence.

The labels "Islamophobe" and "racist" are applied equally to Muslims and Arabs who question Islamic beliefs and practices. This is clearly, plainly completely an issue of beliefs and practices and nothing at all to do with race.

Female genital mutilation is also common in Islamic countries.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prevalence_of_female_genital_mutilation_by_country (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prevalence_of_female_genital_mutilation_by_country)

Taken from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_genital_mutilation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_genital_mutilation)

Type 1 is "partial or total removal of the clitoris and/or the prepuce". Type Ia (circumcision)[39] involves removal of the clitoral hood only. This is rarely performed alone.[d] The more common procedure is Type Ib (clitoridectomy), the complete or partial removal of the clitoral glans (the visible tip of the clitoris) and clitoral hood.[1][41] The circumciser pulls the clitoral glans with her thumb and index finger and cuts it off.[e]

Type II (excision) is the complete or partial removal of the inner labia, with or without removal of the clitoral glans and outer labia. Type IIa is removal of the inner labia; Type IIb, removal of the clitoral glans and inner labia; and Type IIc, removal of the clitoral glans, inner and outer labia. Excision in French can refer to any form of FGM.[1]
Type III

Type III (infibulation or pharaonic circumcision), the "sewn closed" category, involves the removal of the external genitalia and fusion of the wound. The inner and/or outer labia are cut away, with or without removal of the clitoral glans.[f] Type III is found largely in northeast Africa, particularly Djibouti, Eritrea, Ethiopia, Somalia, and Sudan (although not in South Sudan). According to one 2008 estimate, over eight million women in Africa are living with Type III FGM.[g] According to UNFPA in 2010, 20 percent of women with FGM have been infibulated.[44] In Somalia:

    The child is made to squat on a stool or mat facing the circumciser at a height that offers her a good view of the parts to be handled. ...[A]dult helpers grab and pull apart the legs of the girl. ... If available, this is the stage at which a local anaesthetic would be used.

    The element of speed and surprise is vital and the circumciser immediately grabs the clitoris by pinching it between her nails aiming to amputate it with a slash. The organ is then shown to the senior female relatives of the child who will decide whether the amount that has been removed is satisfactory or whether more is to be cut off.
    External images

        Type III
        IIIb (virgin)
        IIIb (sexually active)

    — RAINBO,[45] Swiss Medical Weekly[6]

    After the clitoris has been satisfactorily amputated ... the circumciser can proceed with the total removal of the labia minora and the paring of the inner walls of the labia majora. Since the entire skin on the inner walls of the labia majora has to be removed all the way down to the perineum, this becomes a messy business. By now, the child is screaming, struggling, and bleeding profusely, which makes it difficult for the circumciser to hold with bare fingers and nails the slippery skin and parts that are to be cut or sutured together. ...
    Having ensured that sufficient tissue has been removed to allow the desired fusion of the skin, the circumciser pulls together the opposite sides of the labia majora, ensuring that the raw edges where the skin has been removed are well approximated. The wound is now ready to be stitched or for thorns to be applied. If a needle and thread are being used, close tight sutures will be placed to ensure that a flap of skin covers the vulva and extends from the mons veneris to the perineum, and which, after the wound heals, will form a bridge of scar tissue that will totally occlude the vaginal introitus.[46]

The amputated parts might be placed in a pouch for the girl to wear.[47] A single hole of 2–3 mm is left for the passage of urine and menstrual fluid.[h] The vulva is closed with surgical thread, or agave or acacia thorns, and might be covered with a poultice of raw egg, herbs and sugar. To help the tissue bond, the girl's legs are tied together, often from hip to ankle; the bindings are usually loosened after a week and removed after two to six weeks.[48][28]:491 If the remaining hole is too large in the view of the girl's family, the procedure is repeated.[49]

The vagina is opened for sexual intercourse, for the first time either by a midwife with a knife or by the woman's husband with his penis.[49] In some areas, including Somaliland, female relatives of the bride and groom might watch the opening of the vagina to check that the girl is a virgin.[50] Psychologist Hanny Lightfoot-Klein interviewed hundreds of women and men in Sudan in the 1980s about sexual intercourse with Type III:

    The penetration of the bride's infibulation takes anywhere from 3 or 4 days to several months. Some men are unable to penetrate their wives at all (in my study over 15%), and the task is often accomplished by a midwife under conditions of great secrecy, since this reflects negatively on the man's potency. Some who are unable to penetrate their wives manage to get them pregnant in spite of the infibulation, and the woman's vaginal passage is then cut open to allow birth to take place. ... Those men who do manage to penetrate their wives do so often, or perhaps always, with the help of the "little knife". This creates a tear which they gradually rip more and more until the opening is sufficient to admit the penis.[51]

The woman is opened further for childbirth (defibulation or deinfibulation), and closed again afterwards (reinfibulation). Reinfibulation can involve cutting the vagina again to restore the pinhole size of the first infibulation. This might be performed before marriage, and after childbirth, divorce and widowhood.[52]
Type IV

Type IV is "[a]ll other harmful procedures to the female genitalia for non-medical purposes", including pricking, piercing, incising, scraping and cauterization.[1] It includes nicking of the clitoris (symbolic circumcision), burning or scarring the genitals, and introducing substances into the vagina to tighten it.[53][54] Labia stretching is also categorized as Type IV.[55] Common in southern and eastern Africa, the practice is supposed to enhance sexual pleasure for the man and add to the sense of a woman as a closed space. From the age of eight, girls are encouraged to stretch their inner labia using sticks and massage. Girls in Uganda are told they may have difficulty giving birth without stretched labia.[j][57]

A definition of FGM from the WHO in 1995 included gishiri cutting and angurya cutting, found in Nigeria and Niger. These were removed from the WHO's 2008 definition because of insufficient information about prevalence and consequences.[58] Angurya cutting is excision of the hymen, usually performed seven days after birth. Gishiri cutting involves cutting the vagina's front or back wall with a blade or penknife, performed in response to infertility, obstructed labour and other conditions. In a study by Nigerian physician Mairo Usman Mandara, over 30 percent of women with gishiri cuts were found to have vesicovaginal fistulae (holes that allow urine to seep into the vagina).[59]
Complications
Short-term and late
External image
Keloidal scar tissue
 — RAINBO, 1999[45]:97

FGM harms women's physical and emotional health throughout their lives.[60][61]:49 It has no known health benefits.[8] The short-term and late complications depend on the type of FGM, whether the practitioner has had medical training, and whether they used antibiotics and sterilized or single-use surgical instruments. In the case of Type III, other factors include how small a hole was left for the passage of urine and menstrual blood, whether surgical thread was used instead of agave or acacia thorns, and whether the procedure was performed more than once (for example, to close an opening regarded as too wide or re-open one too small).[6]

Common short-term complications include swelling, excessive bleeding, pain, urine retention, and healing problems/wound infection. A 2015 systematic review of 56 studies that recorded immediate complications suggested that each of these occurred in more than one in ten girls and women undergoing any form of FGM, including symbolic nicking of the clitoris (Type IV), although the risks increased with Type III. The review also suggested that there was under-reporting.[62] Other short-term complications include fatal bleeding, anaemia, urinary infection, septicaemia, tetanus, gangrene, necrotizing fasciitis (flesh-eating disease), and endometritis.[61]:49[63][6] It is not known how many girls and women die as a result of the practice, because complications may not be recognized or reported. The practitioners' use of shared instruments is thought to aid the transmission of hepatitis B, hepatitis C and HIV, although no epidemiological studies have shown this.[61]:50

All You Need To Know About FGM | End FGM - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HN1mulqwv5g#)

Female Genital Mutilation Rises In UK | FGM "Parties" | No Prosecutions - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3C-PZAXkNg#)

http://www.ohrc.on.ca/en/policy-female-genital-mutilation-fgm/4-fgm-canada (http://www.ohrc.on.ca/en/policy-female-genital-mutilation-fgm/4-fgm-canada)



Title: Re: WOMEN'S RIGHTS and FEMINISM
Post by: CumSavorer4385 on December 06, 2017, 07:27:35 PM
Slightly different topic related to WOMEN'S RIGHTS AND FEMINISM in USA.

Falsely accusing a man of rape or other sexual misconduct can ruin his reputation and his life.

If a woman accuses a man falsely, her punishment should be the same as his punishment would have been had he been guilty.

There is currently little or no penalty or punishment for women who intentionally and maliciously lie against innocent men.

That is not right.


http://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-charges/filing-a-false-police-report.html (http://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-charges/filing-a-false-police-report.html)
Title: Re: WOMEN'S RIGHTS and FEMINISM
Post by: tora is a simp bitch for billionaires on December 06, 2017, 09:26:25 PM
"There is currently little or no penalty or punishment for women who intentionally and maliciously lie against innocent men."

lol. just a blatant lie.
Title: Re: WOMEN'S RIGHTS and FEMINISM
Post by: LiveFreeorDie on December 07, 2017, 01:49:51 AM
There are very different scenarios that can all be categorized as the same thing.

A strange man breaks into a woman's home, attacks her and rapes her.

A young man and woman get tipsy, start making out, end up going all the way, the woman later claims she was under the influence and couldn't properly consent and therefore she was raped.

A woman changes her mind during or after sex that she agreed to and can claim she was raped.

The experience doesn't live up to her expectations and is perhaps uncomfortable, even painful.

Every fake or false or frivolous rape allegation is actually helping real rape charges not be taken as seriously. Of course, men can avoid most of the frivolous and ludicrous fake charges by not having sex with strangers who may expect a relationship and become bitter and angry when the man is not interested and want revenge. Then his DNA won't be found inside her body as evidence.

If the physical evidence is there, it is extremely difficult to prove, in the absence of video or voice recording, what was or was not said prior to any given encounter.

Here is an "I was raped and no one cares" claim where a girl didn't have the most blissful experience in the sack, and therefore decided she was raped since she "kind of" didn't want him to finish up when he was very close to orgasm:

https://www.bustle.com/articles/135171-i-didnt-say-no-but-it-was-still-rape?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=owned&utm_campaign=sexrelationshipsbustle (https://www.bustle.com/articles/135171-i-didnt-say-no-but-it-was-still-rape?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=owned&utm_campaign=sexrelationshipsbustle)

This is a reason among the many already listed as reasons not to have casual sex.

You need to be able to trust that the person is not going to try to send you to prison if they either don't like the experience or want more of a relationship than you do.

Here is a story about 17 year Jay Cheshire from UK who was falsely accused and was so distraught that he killed himself, and then his mother was so distraught that she killed herself:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/thinking-man/11912748/Guilty-until-proven-innocent-life-after-a-false-rape-accusation.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/thinking-man/11912748/Guilty-until-proven-innocent-life-after-a-false-rape-accusation.html)

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/1529606/family-of-tragic-mum-and-son-demand-face-to-face-showdown-with-woman-who-filed-false-rape-claim-which-triggered-suicides/ (https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/1529606/family-of-tragic-mum-and-son-demand-face-to-face-showdown-with-woman-who-filed-false-rape-claim-which-triggered-suicides/)

The girl who made the false accusation caused the deaths of two innocent people and walked away scot-free and anonymous to media.

False rape accusations are as bad as the crime of rape itself. It ruins lives, both of the falsely accused, and of honest women who are raped and want to press charges. It makes real victims of the vile crime of rape be eyed with suspicion.

If a female makes an accusation, often a man is considered guilty before he is even given a trial or before any evidence has been examined. In America, people are supposedly "innocent until proven guilty", but it doesn't always play out that way. The media trumpet the story and reputations are smeared before a trial has been conducted or before any actual evidence is examined. People should be more careful to look into facts before shouting labels about people.

Both men and women deserve protection from the law, from false accusations and from vile physical crimes, and the penalty for false rape accusations needs to be a lot tougher than it currently is. And those would of course need to go through a proper trial, overturning every shred of evidence like anything else.

Elizabeth Coast lied about being raped and a man was sentenced to prison for 7 years, but after serving 4, she apparently felt guilty and admitted she had lied. She served 2 months in jail.

4 years for the innocent. 2 months for the guilty. NOT QUITE JUSTICE if you ask me.

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/entry/elizabeth-coast-rape-lie_n_3784718 (http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/entry/elizabeth-coast-rape-lie_n_3784718)

Linsey Attridge chose strangers from facebook to accuse of rape. She even punched herself to make her story more credible. The randomly chosen strangers were arrested and their lives turned upside down with tests and interrogations. Their reputations were smeared. They were harassed by the community since people become justifiably upset when girls are hurt. When it came out that it was a lie to gain attention and sympathy from her boyfriend, all she got was 200 measly hours of community service.

Her acting was terrific, according to the article:

Throughout this process, Linsey sobbed, shook with fright and even made herself sick to hoodwink the female friend supporting her through her ‘ordeal’.

Her victims' lives were seriously damaged:

"Out in the real world, Philip’s ordeal was much worse: ‘He got harassed in the street; even in the school grounds parents were looking him up and down,’ remembers Kelly. ‘It was just horrible. I’m sure people were looking at me thinking “What is she still doing with him?” ’

The whispering at the gates of their daughter’s school became so unbearable that they withdrew her, moving her to another school where the pupils and parents knew nothing of Philip’s arrest.

‘We could tell what people were thinking by the way they were looking at us,’ says Kelly.

‘That’s why we ended up putting her in another school. That was hard.’"

‘Why would you do something like that? How many lives has she ruined? I wonder if she realises that it was a little girl’s life she ruined, too?’

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2348532/The-woman-accused-stranger-Facebook-rape--ruined-victims-life.html#ixzz50YQLh4Tl (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2348532/The-woman-accused-stranger-Facebook-rape--ruined-victims-life.html#ixzz50YQLh4Tl)

Cori Lynn Osiecki falsely accused her ex-boyfriend after he broke up with her. She later admitted to lying. I found no record of her receiving any kind of punishment.

I think if the punishment for false charges was more significant than a little community service or a measly 2 months in jail, people might think twice before going out to destroy the lives of innocent people including their target(s) and all the women and girls who are true victims of horrible crimes.







Title: Re: WOMEN'S RIGHTS and FEMINISM
Post by: Ze_sAiNt on December 07, 2017, 05:07:24 AM
Quran (5:33) – “The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement.”

The above verse includes me, because I am "waging war" against Allah and Muhammad

This is yet another example of someone ignorant singling out one verse from the Qur'an and quoting it out of its historical context and spreading misinformation and misguiding innocent people .  Here is the context that you failed to mention:

In order to understand this particular verse (Q 5:33), we have to go back to Prophet Muhammad’s life-time, with the historical sources available to us, and find out how it was interpreted by the Muslims then.

This verse was revealed in connection with a group of people who came to Madinah, they ate, rested and later in the day robbed and butchered an innocent shepherd to pieces. These criminals decapitated the shepherd(s), gouged their eyes out. After they fled, they also went on to rape women.

We have to keep in mind that the punishments was only carried out on these criminals as a result of the seriousness of what they did to innocent people. Such crimes committed even today would guarantee a criminal person(s) would be given the death penalty in a Democratic country like America, or life imprisonment without parole. As mentioned previously, the punishment meted out was in retaliation for their acts. The Prophet Muhammad punished them the same way they killed the shepherd.

As shown, making ‘mischief’ in the land, refers to robbery, murder and rape.  So, how does that verse include you in any way?  Unless, you attest to having done all those things...

But now I ask you:  how would you treat someone who would (hypothetically) rob, murder, and torture your own brother, by shoving spikes in his eye, slicing him in pieces and poking his eyes out, they also goes on to rape your sister???  Believe me, cutting off his hands and feet from opposite sides would be the most lenient of punishments you would want to inflict!


since my belief is that Muhammad was a man, a regular, sinful man

Once again, another false claim about Muhammad that can be historically verified.  What despises me the most about you is that you don't even bother reading or understanding the Islamic history or the Qur'an in its context and come up with your own conclusion.

Muhammad was known as a truthful and trustworthy person long before Islam.  He was known throughout Makkah as “Al-Sadiq Al-Amin“: the Truthful, Trustworthy one, a title he retained even by those who disbelieved in him after he declared his prophethood.  The Makkans agreed unanimously that Prophet Muhammad was a truthful person. Once before his conversion, a man called Yasir asked his son Ammar where he was going. Ammar replied that he was going to Muhammad. Being fully satisfied of his son’s safety while with Muhammad, he replied: “Muhammad is a trustworthy person. The Makkans recognize him so. If he claims prophethood, he must be telling the truth, for no one has ever heard him tell a lie.

Even Muhammad’s enemies did not accuse him of lying after he proclaimed his prophethood. After the Treaty of Hudaibiyah, in the year 6 after the Hijrah, Prophet Muhammad sent letters to the rulers of neighboring countries. The Emperor of Byzantium received his letter in Syria at a time when a Makkan trade caravan was in the area of Damascus. This caravan was headed by Abu Sufyan, one of the leading enemies of Islam and Prophet Muhammad.

The Emperor summoned him to inquire about Prophet Muhammad, and the following conversation took place:

“What is the status of his family among you?”

“He belongs to a good (noble) family amongst us”

“Has anybody else amongst you ever claimed the same (that is, to be a prophet) before him?”

“No”

“Was anybody amongst his ancestors a king?”

“No”

“Do the nobles or the poor follow him?”

“It is the poor who follow him.”

“Are his followers increasing or decreasing (day by day)?”

“They are increasing”

“Does anybody amongst those who embrace his religion become displeased and renounce the religion afterwards?”

“No.”

“Have you ever accused him of telling lies before his claim (to be a prophet)?”

“No”


“Does he break his promises?”

“No. We have a truce with him but we do not know what he will do”

“Have you ever had a war with him?”

“Yes”

“What were the outcomes of these battles?”

“Sometimes he was victorious, and sometimes we were”

“What does he order you to do?”

“He tells us to worship Allah and Allah alone and not to worship anything along with Him, and to renounce all that our ancestors had said. He orders us to pray, to be chaste, and to keep good relations with our kith and kin.”


Struck by Abu Sufyan’s answers, at that time the bitterest enemy of Islam, the Emperor acknowledged Muhammad’s position and said:

If what you have said is true, he will very soon occupy this place underneath my feet, and I knew it (from the scriptures) that he was going to appear but I did not know that he would be from you, and if I could reach him definitely, I would go immediately to meet him and if I were with him, I would certainly wash his feet. (Al-Bukhari)


These are all historically verifiable evidence which you intentionally or ignorantly choose to discard.  If anyone had to choose between your judgment and verifiable facts, I wonder which one they will choose...


who invented Allah, and that Allah was ultimately Muhammad's sock puppet to make the people around him do what he wanted

That's the first time in my life that I've heard something so ridiculous.  You have now reached a new low in your accusations of Muhammad, so much so that you even claim Muhammad to have "invented" Allah.


Quran (4:95) – “Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward.”

Quran (2:191-193) – “And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief] is worse than killing…but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful.   And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone.  But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)”

Quran (2:216) – “Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not.”  Not only does this verse establish that violence can be virtuous, but it also contradicts the myth that fighting is intended only in self-defense, since the audience was obviously not under attack at the time.  From the Hadith, we know that this verse was narrated at a time that Muhammad was actually trying to motivate his people into raiding merchant caravans for loot.

Quran (4:74) – “Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward.”

Quran (4:89) – “They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks.”

Quran (8:39) – “And fight with them until there is no more fitna (disorder, unbelief) and religion should be only for Allah”


This is not the first time you are quoting verses from the Qur'an out of context.  You apply the 'cut and choose' approach with regards to specific verses so that it suits you. You have failed again and again and again to show that you know the context of the verses you are quoting.  Your knowledge of Islamic history is very very poor, to say the least.  I will explain the context of one of the verses you quoted as an example so people can see how you are trying to deceive them:

Quran 2:190 – 195

2:190 Fight in the way of God those who fight you but do not transgress. Indeed. God does not like transgressors.
2:191 And kill them wherever you find them and expel them from wherever they have expelled you, and fitnah [Persecution] is worse than killing. And do not fight them at al-Masjid al- Haram until they fight you there. But if they fight you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers.
2:192 And if they cease, then indeed, God is Forgiving and Merciful.
2:193 Fight them until there is no [more] fitnah [Persecution] and [until] worship is for God. But if they cease, then there is to be no aggression except against the oppressors.
2:194 [Fighting in] the sacred month is for [aggression committed in] the sacred month, and for [all] violations is legal retribution. So whoever has assaulted you, then assault him in the same way that he has assaulted you. And fear God and know that God is with those who fear Him.
2:195 And spend in the way of God and do not throw [yourselves] with your [own] hands into destruction [by refraining]. And do good; indeed, God loves the doers of good.


Now, read it in its context. You only quoted the part which suited you, and you purposely isolated previous verses and the ones after. When the passage is examined in context, it is clear that nowhere does it sanction the killing of innocent people. From verse 2:190 to 2:195, when read in context, Allah makes it evident to fight only those who fight them, fighting in self-defence.

Gibbon, the master historian says in his  book "Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire":

"In the state of nature, every one has a right to defend his person and possessions, and extend his hostilities to a reasonable amount of satisfaction and retaliation"

Since you are time and again quoting Qur'anic verses out of context even though I urged you not to do so, it can mean only 2 things:

1) You are intentionally trying to deceive people, which is devilish; or
2) You do not understand the word 'context', which means that your understanding of the English language as a native speaker is extremely poor.

I believe everyone will conclude it's the former.


Your verse from Jesus was actually taken completely out of context, and He was certainly not instructing His followers to kill anyone, and you do not see Christians going around en masse killing people in the name of Jesus. For someone who was criticizing taking things out of context, it's surprising that you went ahead and did just that so soon after.

Here is the framework of the verse you quoted from Luke 19. Jesus was telling a PARABLE.

Aha.  So you DO understand the word 'context' after all when it suits you.  I guess my earlier conclusion was correct.

But let's look at the verse in question as well as the context.  Jesus is telling his disciples of a parable as you rightly emphasized on with CAPS.  So what is a parable?  A parable is defined as "a short allegorical story designed to illustrate or teach some truth, religious principle, or moral lesson.".  So what is the lesson we learn from these verses preceding Luke 19:27 and the ones that follow it?  We learn that Jesus speaks of a King whose subjects hated him and didn't want him to be their King.  The whole passage of the Parable of the Ten Minas culminates in Jesus saying "...those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me.."  And what does the Bible tell us about Jesus in the passage that immediately follows the Parable of the Ten Minas?  The title of that passage is summarized as "Jesus Comes to Jerusalem as King". 

What 'religious principle' or 'moral lesson' are we to learn from this?  The lesson is that it is the prerogative of anyone who claims to be a king to slaughter anyone who refuses to accept him as the king.
Title: Re: WOMEN'S RIGHTS and FEMINISM
Post by: Ze_sAiNt on December 07, 2017, 06:41:21 AM
The Cain and Abel story (which is another version of the story from the Bible in Genesis, again showing that the author was copying other sources but putting his own spin on them) is about MEN.

You are now claiming that Muhammad copied passages from the Bible and rehashed them to make them appear as if they were of divine origin.  So, before you start making allegations against the authorship and authenticity of the Qur'an, it would be wise for you to have a look at what your own Christian scholars have to say about your Bible:

J. B. Phillips (an English Bible scholar and an Anglican clergyman in the Church of England in 1930) - in his book "The Gospels in Modern English 1952"

J. B. Phillips writes in the preface to the Gospel of Matthew:

"Early traditions ascribed this Gospel to the Apostle Matthew (i.e this is what people say); but scholars nowadays, almost all reject this view" - (Who?  Muslim scholars? Hindu scholars? Jewish scholars?  No - Christian scholars all reject the view that Matthew wrote Matthew) (parenthesis mine)

"The author whom we can conveniently call Matthew has plainly drawn on the mysterious 'Q' which may have been a collection of oral traditions. He has used Marks Gospel freely..."

The author whom we can conveniently call Matthew? Why conveniently? Because otherwise we'll have to say, "The first book of the New Testament, verse so and so." Now instead, we can say MATTHEW 5:5 or MATTHEW 7:27 and so on, instead of wasting your time and my time.

And what about this mysterious 'Q' he mentioned? 'Q' is the first initial of the German word 'Quella', which means 'sources' or 'copying from the outside', i.e, these are not 'inspired words'.

J. B. Phillips further comments, "He has used Marks Gospel freely..." From an academic point of view, "Matthew" is guilty of plagiarism. He was copying wholesale from Mark. If you don't believe the words of a qualified Christian scholar of the Bible, all you need do is simply read a few verses to understand, for example:

"And as Jesus passed forth thence, he (Jesus) saw a man called Matthew, sitting at the receipt of custom; and he (Jesus) said unto him (Matthew), follow me, and he (Matthew) arose and followed him (Jesus)." (parenthesis mine) [Matthew 9:9]

The 'he's' and 'him's' in the above verse clearly show that neither Jesus nor Matthew were the author of this narration. This verse is written in the third person. Nobody knows who wrote the book; certainly though, not Matthew.


Nevertheless, for the sake of argument, let's assume hypothetically that Muhammad copied these verses from the Bible.  It is clear that you are missing the point, that the Qur'an (in as much as those verses I quoted explain) teaches that whosoever kills anybody else deliberately, it is as if he has killed the whole of mankind.  So what do you disagree to here?

Do you fight against the violent Muslims who do oppress women? Are you willing to publicly renounce them and their actions, including promoting the legal prosecution and deportation of criminals?

If you believe that what they are doing is wrong, then prove it. Join those who stand for freedom of speech and human rights for both men and women in denouncing violence against women and innocent civilians wherever it may be found, no matter who is doing it.

Post educational videos publicly showing the two streams of Muslims, and that you and people like you do not believe in or support the actions of the violent ones. Call them out and call them to peaceful conduct and fair and kind treatment of women and girls.


First of all, my purpose in posting response to your threads has been to rectify the misconceptions about Islam that you are spreading and to show you that before you start pointing fingers at muslim and finding faults with the Qur'an, you should start reading and understanding your own Bible and see how you being led by the nose to believe that Jesus died for your sins when Jesus preached otherwise - at least, this was how the discussion started.  If you want to be a human rights activist and go on a quest to change the world for the better, be my guest.  Don't expect everyone to follow suit.  My objective is not to change people's perception on a large scale - there are other scholars and activists already doing that.  But you seem to be doing a pretty good job at defaming Islam and it doesn't look like you are about to stop until the whole world has seen "the real face of Islam", despite me refuting your allegations all along.

Secondly, you are trying to depict a picture of anti-feminism in Islam by posting pictures of women who have been beaten and disfigured "by muslims" "in Islamic nations" and claim this comes from the teachings of Mohammad.  My response to you is to account for the following despite all your claims:

- Why is Islam still the fastest growing religion in the world today?
- Why are there more women entering Islam than there are leaving Islam?
- Who is forcing women in America (especially after 9/11) to accept Islam?  (According to a 2010 study by the Association of Religion Data Archives, the number of Muslims in America increased by 67 percent in the decade following the Sept. 11 attacks, most of whom being women)
- Why do so many non-muslim historians and scholars speak so highly of Muhammad? Of course, you very conveniently chose to disregard those unbiased writings of 16 non-muslims about Muhammad which I quoted in your other thread.


How about you start reflecting on this?
Title: Re: WOMEN'S RIGHTS and FEMINISM
Post by: LiveFreeorDie on December 07, 2017, 07:45:09 AM
I want you to recognize, @Ze_sAiNt, that my purpose is not to "make people look bad", but to help people. I actually have developed a lot more compassion for Muslim people by learning more about the religion and culture. I care about the people, including you.

I readily admit that my hope is that people who are persuaded by the teachings of Muhammad will recognize that there are problems in his teachings and life, including that he married and had sex with a child. Children should not be having sex and young girls' bodies can be seriously traumatized and damaged by forcible penetration by an adult. I would like truth and goodness to be prioritized over believing everything this man wrote or making his not very admirable life to be the "perfect example". I know that when you have been taught the same thing from childhood, it's really hard to think everything you learned is wrong. But it is my belief that it is a religion that is not based on truth and the values and teachings promoted are not good. I think children deserve to be loved and protected. I think women deserve to be loved and protected. I think boys and men deserve to be loved and protected.

I would like to see men and women to genuinely love and care for and value each other. I would like to see children loved. Even if you and I don't see things the same way, I want you to know I'm praying for you, as well as for Tora and Lightbringer, that you would come to know the love of Jesus personally. So many Muslims have been saved and come to know truth and love and freedom from an oppressive system of rules and laws that does not guarantee salvation for anyone, especially not for Muslim women, with whom Islam's hellfires are crowded.

I would ultimately like all men to come to a knowledge of the truth of Jesus Christ, and His love and forgiveness for all people. Jesus loves Muslims and His blood won forgiveness for every single one of them too, not only for me. We all have done wrong against God's holy laws.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1264729/Child-bride-13-dies-internal-injuries-days-arranged-marriage-Yemen.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1264729/Child-bride-13-dies-internal-injuries-days-arranged-marriage-Yemen.html)

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2010/apr/25/middle-east-child-abuse-pederasty (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2010/apr/25/middle-east-child-abuse-pederasty)

Muhammad's sex life according to Islamic writings:

https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/quran/muhammads-sex-life.aspx (https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/quran/muhammads-sex-life.aspx)

I already admitted that I knew quite little about Islam outside of the public perception and just minimal surface stuff that I'd learned up til that point in my life, when Tora brought it up on these forums. His bringing it up led me to go more and more into it.

There really are horrific abuses going on within Islam, and I think the abuses go further than what the Quran specifies (ie. disfiguring faces with acid and cutting off noses are more advanced than beating with a scourge) and there are horrific abuses going on outside of Islam. Certainly abuse is not limited to Islam. But when women are religiously and culturally categorized as less than men and as men's property, it paves the way for mistreatment of all kinds. Who is going to stand up for another man's property if he chooses to damage it? And yes, as the Bible is an accurate historical book, we see oppression of women in history in other cultures and peoples besides Islam as well.

I say it should be stopped wherever it's found by whomever it's done.

If I'm taking the verses of the Quran out of context, then so are the majority of Muslims who do act on them and act in violence against non-Muslims and women.

From my reading of it, it reads as though violence is to be used until there is no worship of anyone besides Allah and no resistance to subjugation. It is certainly forced on everyone. Even the Muslim men in the video say the same.

Even though Muslim men are committing abuses against Muslim women, I do also see Muslim men as victims of an oppressive religion and oppressive system.

I think men naturally want to be loved.

I do not think a woman is capable of loving a man who beats her and treats her terribly, like a thing, and I think he does these things because that's what he is raised to believe is appropriate behavior and pleasing to Allah.

I even wonder how Muslim men are able to enjoy sex with a woman or girl who is unable to feel pleasure because she has had her clitoris cut out. I don't know what joy or pleasure there is in having sex with someone who is forced to have sex with you whether she likes it or not and can't enjoy it anyways. I know that for most North .American men, the woman's desire and pleasure is enormously important and a source of his own pleasure.

I feel compassion for Muslim men who are deprived of love and who have to live with their own violent acts against the women they are designed to love and protect. It must be a horrible feeling deep inside.

It's a bad system. Cutting off a woman's genitals is completely barbaric and disgusting. I feel so much compassion for the girls and women who have this done to them, and have to live the rest of their life amputated from a big and pretty important part of being a human, their sexuality and experiencing sexual pleasure, all because men want to make sure they don't run off with some guy or have sex with anyone they shouldn't, but most of all because Allah (ie. Muhammad) prescribes it.

Female genital mutilation is a prescribed practice in Islam, and these traditions and practices follow Muslims wherever they go. So FGM, even though illegal in "Western" countries like USA and UK, is practiced there in Muslim communities. Many girls were flown out to have their genitals cut off, and then flown back in, but when authorities started clamping down on the borders and having girls removed from the UK, Musims started flying practitioners in to do multiple girls at once, in secret.

Circumcision is not an inherited custom as some people claim, rather it is prescribed in Islam and the scholars are unanimously agreed that it is prescribed. Not a single Muslim scholar – as far as we know – has said that circumcision is not prescribed.

Their evidence is to be found in the saheeh ahaadeeth of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), which prove that it is prescribed, for example:

1-

    The hadeeth narrated by al-Bukhaari (5889) and Muslim (257) from Abu Hurayrah (may Allaah be pleased with him), that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: "The fitrah is five things – or five things are part of the fitrah – circumcision, shaving the pubes, cutting the nails, plucking the armpit hairs, and trimming the moustache."

    This hadeeth includes circumcision of both males and females.

2-

    Muslim (349) narrated that ‘Aa’ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “When a man sits between the four parts (arms and legs of his wife) and the two circumcised parts meet, then ghusl is obligatory.”

    The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) mentioned the two circumcised parts, i.e., the circumcised part of the husband and the circumcised part of the wife, which indicates that a woman may be circumcised just like a man.

3-

    Abu Dawood (5271) narrated from Umm ‘Atiyyah al-Ansaariyyah that a woman used to do circumcisions in Madeenah and the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said to her: “Do not go to the extreme in cutting; that is better for the woman and more liked by the husband.” But the scholars differed concerning this hadeeth. Some of them classed it as da’eef (weak) and others classed it as saheeh. It was classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh Abi Dawood. The fact that circumcision for women is prescribed in Islam is confirmed by the ahaadeeth quoted above, not by this disputed hadeeth. But the scholars differed concerning the ruling, and there are three opinions:

1 –

    That it is obligatory for both males and females. This is the view of the Shaafa’is and Hanbalis, and is the view favoured by al-Qaadi Abu Bakr ibn al-‘Arabi among the Maalikis (may Allaah have mercy on them all).

    Al-Nawawi (may Allaah have mercy on him) said in al-Majmoo’ (1/367): "Circumcision is obligatory for both men and women in our view. This is the view of many of the salaf, as was narrated by al-Khattaabi. Among those who regarded it as obligatory is Ahmad… it is the correct view that is well known and was stated by al-Shaafa’i (may Allaah have mercy on him), and the majority stated definitively that it is obligatory for both men and women."

    See Fath al-Baari, 10/340; Kishshaaf al-Qinaa’, 1/80

2 –

    That circumcision is Sunnah for both males and females. This is the view of the Hanafis and Maalikis, and was narrated in one report from Ahmad. Ibn ‘Aabideen al-Hanafi (may Allaah have mercy on him) said in his Haashiyah (6/751): "In Kitaab al-Tahaarah of al-Siraaj al-Wahhaaj it says: Know that circumcision is Sunnah in our view – i.e., according to the Hanafis – for men and for women."

    See: Mawaahib al-Jaleel, 3/259

3 –

    That circumcision is obligatory for men and is good and mustahabb for women. This is the third view of Imam Ahmad, and it is the view of some Maalikis such as Sahnoon. This view was also favoured by al-Muwaffaq ibn Qudaamah in al-Mughni.

    See: al-Tamheed, 21/60; al-Mughni, 1/63

It says in Fataawa al-Lajnah al-Daa’imah (5/223):

    "Circumcision is one of the Sunnahs of the fitrah, and it is for both males and females, except that is it obligatory for males and Sunnah and good in the case of women."

Thus it is clear that the fuqaha’ of Islam are agreed that circumcision is prescribed for both males and females, and in fact the majority of them are of the view that it is obligatory for both. No one said that it is not prescribed or that it is makrooh or haraam.


(Taken from https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Qur%27an,_Hadith_and_Scholars:Female_Genital_Mutilation (https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Qur%27an,_Hadith_and_Scholars:Female_Genital_Mutilation))

Title: Re: WOMEN'S RIGHTS and FEMINISM
Post by: Ze_sAiNt on December 07, 2017, 10:29:24 AM
I want you to recognize, @Ze_sAiNt, that my purpose is not to "make people look bad", but to help people. I actually have developed a lot more compassion for Muslim people by learning more about the religion and culture. I care about the people, including you.

I readily admit that my hope is that people who are persuaded by the teachings of Muhammad will recognize that there are problems in his teachings and life, including that he married and had sex with a child. Children should not be having sex and young girls' bodies can be seriously traumatized and damaged by forcible penetration by an adult. I would like truth and goodness to be prioritized over believing everything this man wrote or making his not very admirable life to be the "perfect example". I know that when you have been taught the same thing from childhood, it's really hard to think everything you learned is wrong. But it is my belief that it is a religion that is not based on truth and the values and teachings promoted are not good. I think children deserve to be loved and protected. I think women deserve to be loved and protected. I think boys and men deserve to be loved and protected.

I would like to see men and women to genuinely love and care for and value each other. I would like to see children loved. Even if you and I don't see things the same way, I want you to know I'm praying for you, as well as for Tora and Lightbringer, that you would come to know the love of Jesus personally. So many Muslims have been saved and come to know truth and love and freedom from an oppressive system of rules and laws that does not guarantee salvation for anyone, especially not for Muslim women, with whom Islam's hellfires are crowded.

I would ultimately like all men to come to a knowledge of the truth of Jesus Christ, and His love and forgiveness for all people. Jesus loves Muslims and His blood won forgiveness for every single one of them too, not only for me. We all have done wrong against God's holy laws.

[url]http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1264729/Child-bride-13-dies-internal-injuries-days-arranged-marriage-Yemen.html[/url] ([url]http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1264729/Child-bride-13-dies-internal-injuries-days-arranged-marriage-Yemen.html[/url])

[url]https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2010/apr/25/middle-east-child-abuse-pederasty[/url] ([url]https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2010/apr/25/middle-east-child-abuse-pederasty[/url])

Muhammad's sex life according to Islamic writings:

[url]https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/quran/muhammads-sex-life.aspx[/url] ([url]https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/quran/muhammads-sex-life.aspx[/url])

I already admitted that I knew quite little about Islam outside of the public perception and just minimal surface stuff that I'd learned up til that point in my life, when Tora brought it up on these forums. His bringing it up led me to go more and more into it.

There really are horrific abuses going on within Islam, and I think the abuses go further than what the Quran specifies (ie. disfiguring faces with acid and cutting off noses are more advanced than beating with a scourge) and there are horrific abuses going on outside of Islam. Certainly abuse is not limited to Islam. But when women are religiously and culturally categorized as less than men and as men's property, it paves the way for mistreatment of all kinds. Who is going to stand up for another man's property if he chooses to damage it? And yes, as the Bible is an accurate historical book, we see oppression of women in history in other cultures and peoples besides Islam as well.

I say it should be stopped wherever it's found by whomever it's done.

If I'm taking the verses of the Quran out of context, then so are the majority of Muslims who do act on them and act in violence against non-Muslims and women.

From my reading of it, it reads as though violence is to be used until there is no worship of anyone besides Allah and no resistance to subjugation. It is certainly forced on everyone. Even the Muslim men in the video say the same.

Even though Muslim men are committing abuses against Muslim women, I do also see Muslim men as victims of an oppressive religion and oppressive system.

I think men naturally want to be loved.

I do not think a woman is capable of loving a man who beats her and treats her terribly, like a thing, and I think he does these things because that's what he is raised to believe is appropriate behavior and pleasing to Allah.

I even wonder how Muslim men are able to enjoy sex with a woman or girl who is unable to feel pleasure because she has had her clitoris cut out. I don't know what joy or pleasure there is in having sex with someone who is forced to have sex with you whether she likes it or not and can't enjoy it anyways. I know that for most North .American men, the woman's desire and pleasure is enormously important and a source of his own pleasure.

I feel compassion for Muslim men who are deprived of love and who have to live with their own violent acts against the women they are designed to love and protect. It must be a horrible feeling deep inside.

It's a bad system. Cutting off a woman's genitals is completely barbaric and disgusting. I feel so much compassion for the girls and women who have this done to them, and have to live the rest of their life amputated from a big and pretty important part of being a human, their sexuality and experiencing sexual pleasure, all because men want to make sure they don't run off with some guy or have sex with anyone they shouldn't, but most of all because Allah (ie. Muhammad) prescribes it.

Female genital mutilation is a prescribed practice in Islam, and these traditions and practices follow Muslims wherever they go. So FGM, even though illegal in "Western" countries like USA and UK, is practiced there in Muslim communities. Many girls were flown out to have their genitals cut off, and then flown back in, but when authorities started clamping down on the borders and having girls removed from the UK, Musims started flying practitioners in to do multiple girls at once, in secret.

Circumcision is not an inherited custom as some people claim, rather it is prescribed in Islam and the scholars are unanimously agreed that it is prescribed. Not a single Muslim scholar – as far as we know – has said that circumcision is not prescribed.

Their evidence is to be found in the saheeh ahaadeeth of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), which prove that it is prescribed, for example:

1-

    The hadeeth narrated by al-Bukhaari (5889) and Muslim (257) from Abu Hurayrah (may Allaah be pleased with him), that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: "The fitrah is five things – or five things are part of the fitrah – circumcision, shaving the pubes, cutting the nails, plucking the armpit hairs, and trimming the moustache."

    This hadeeth includes circumcision of both males and females.

2-

    Muslim (349) narrated that ‘Aa’ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “When a man sits between the four parts (arms and legs of his wife) and the two circumcised parts meet, then ghusl is obligatory.”

    The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) mentioned the two circumcised parts, i.e., the circumcised part of the husband and the circumcised part of the wife, which indicates that a woman may be circumcised just like a man.

3-

    Abu Dawood (5271) narrated from Umm ‘Atiyyah al-Ansaariyyah that a woman used to do circumcisions in Madeenah and the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said to her: “Do not go to the extreme in cutting; that is better for the woman and more liked by the husband.” But the scholars differed concerning this hadeeth. Some of them classed it as da’eef (weak) and others classed it as saheeh. It was classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh Abi Dawood. The fact that circumcision for women is prescribed in Islam is confirmed by the ahaadeeth quoted above, not by this disputed hadeeth. But the scholars differed concerning the ruling, and there are three opinions:

1 –

    That it is obligatory for both males and females. This is the view of the Shaafa’is and Hanbalis, and is the view favoured by al-Qaadi Abu Bakr ibn al-‘Arabi among the Maalikis (may Allaah have mercy on them all).

    Al-Nawawi (may Allaah have mercy on him) said in al-Majmoo’ (1/367): "Circumcision is obligatory for both men and women in our view. This is the view of many of the salaf, as was narrated by al-Khattaabi. Among those who regarded it as obligatory is Ahmad… it is the correct view that is well known and was stated by al-Shaafa’i (may Allaah have mercy on him), and the majority stated definitively that it is obligatory for both men and women."

    See Fath al-Baari, 10/340; Kishshaaf al-Qinaa’, 1/80

2 –

    That circumcision is Sunnah for both males and females. This is the view of the Hanafis and Maalikis, and was narrated in one report from Ahmad. Ibn ‘Aabideen al-Hanafi (may Allaah have mercy on him) said in his Haashiyah (6/751): "In Kitaab al-Tahaarah of al-Siraaj al-Wahhaaj it says: Know that circumcision is Sunnah in our view – i.e., according to the Hanafis – for men and for women."

    See: Mawaahib al-Jaleel, 3/259

3 –

    That circumcision is obligatory for men and is good and mustahabb for women. This is the third view of Imam Ahmad, and it is the view of some Maalikis such as Sahnoon. This view was also favoured by al-Muwaffaq ibn Qudaamah in al-Mughni.

    See: al-Tamheed, 21/60; al-Mughni, 1/63

It says in Fataawa al-Lajnah al-Daa’imah (5/223):

    "Circumcision is one of the Sunnahs of the fitrah, and it is for both males and females, except that is it obligatory for males and Sunnah and good in the case of women."

Thus it is clear that the fuqaha’ of Islam are agreed that circumcision is prescribed for both males and females, and in fact the majority of them are of the view that it is obligatory for both. No one said that it is not prescribed or that it is makrooh or haraam.


(Taken from [url]https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Qur%27an,_Hadith_and_Scholars:Female_Genital_Mutilation[/url] ([url]https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Qur%27an,_Hadith_and_Scholars:Female_Genital_Mutilation[/url]))





And yet, despite all this, more and more Americans are entering the fold of Islam, most of whom are women according to your statistics...

Don’t you care to find out why these American women are being ‘coerced’ into accepting Islam in such a free and Democratic nation as yours?  I’m sure you have a rational explanation for that too... why don’t you indulge us?
Title: Re: WOMEN'S RIGHTS and FEMINISM
Post by: LiveFreeorDie on December 07, 2017, 03:20:36 PM
One of my takeaways from these discussions so far is that we North American women are actually quite spoiled and whine about relatively petty things.

I now just want to worship the ground my husband walks on and go enjoy the body parts that I still actually have that haven't been cut out with him.

I suspect I may be rather *busy* for a little while.
Title: Re: WOMEN'S RIGHTS and FEMINISM
Post by: tora is a simp bitch for billionaires on December 07, 2017, 05:18:33 PM
Random thought  - Vaginoplasty that isn't necessary but desired by women who want to improve the appearance of their vaginas is often classified as female genital mutilation by WHO. We don't hear about reactionaries talking about that though, I wonder why.
Title: Re: WOMEN'S RIGHTS and FEMINISM
Post by: tora is a simp bitch for billionaires on December 07, 2017, 05:28:45 PM
One of my takeaways from these discussions so far is that we North American women are actually quite spoiled and whine about relatively petty things.

I now just want to worship the ground my husband walks on and go enjoy the body parts that I still actually have that haven't been cut out with him.


You can be submissive all you want to men, no one cares. In general though women should probably look to progress out of 19th century mentality. You can invent all the reasons in your head about men being oppressed, lol, about women having too many human rights today, lol, to justify your patriarchal disease of the mind. Simply though, you don't have the facts on your side. You don't have even basic human decency on your side.
Title: Re: WOMEN'S RIGHTS and FEMINISM
Post by: Ze_sAiNt on December 10, 2017, 06:02:53 AM
One of my takeaways from these discussions so far is that we North American women are actually quite spoiled and whine about relatively petty things.

My takeaway from these discussions, as many would observe, is that he (or in fact, she) who lives in a glass house shouldn't throw stones.
Title: Re: WOMEN'S RIGHTS and FEMINISM
Post by: LiveFreeorDie on December 10, 2017, 07:16:56 AM
I agree. The Muslim men who are adulterers should not be throwing stones at women they accuse of adultery (who are often actually innocent).

Woman Stoned for Alleged Adultery (GRAPHIC) - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWE1x9GRHo4#)

I also say the Muslim men who want sexual pleasure themselves should not deprive women of sexual pleasure by ensuring all Muslim females have their clitoris and/or labia cut off forcibly and against their will because Muhammad thought it was a good idea.

Female Genital Mutilation - FGM English - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nn_pKycgb38#)

Female Genital Mutilation And Islam- THE FACTS - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JGJUQEWKZY#)

Halal Certification link to FGM Female Genital Mutilation & Islam - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VqiBuQdD3xQ#)

How I Survived Female Genital Mutilation - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTG1MQdlNRY#)

This mutilation and amputation of women's healthy sex organs provides NO health benefits, but rather many complications including death, extreme pain with childbirth, hemorrhage, HIV, trauma, urinary problems, severe pain, infection, wound healing problems, shock, plus psychological effects, depression, anxiety, post traumatic stress disorder, and of course the obvious, NEVER BEING ABLE TO FEEL SEXUAL PLEASURE IN THEIR ENTIRE LIVES.

I also say Muslim men who don't want their bodies and minds destroyed, damaged, and traumatized should not destroy, damage, and traumatize little girls by "marrying" and raping them, sometimes killing them by forcibly penetrating a girl's body that is nowhere close to being ready for adult relations. Oh by the way, her genitals have already been cut out and sewn up, often leaving just a tiny hole where pee (and blood when she grows up) can come out. The man is supposed to force himself into a child's body through the stitched up, already traumatized tissue. Torture for her, obviously. It's sick. Pedophilia is part of Islam, and Muhammad himself married and raped a little girl.

8-year-old Yemeni Child Bride Dies on Wedding Night! - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWNNFXWHmDU#)

11 Year Old Child Bride Speaks About Evil Islam, Murdered After - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8E601ydP6s#)

Muslim men don't want to be beaten with weapons by people stronger than them. Yet they do this to girls and women. Here a man beats a girl who ran away from an abusive forced marriage.

How To Beat Your Child Bride _ savage tradition - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XucUtJNAat8#)

I agree with you.

I think people should treat people the way they want to be treated. That's what the Bible teaches.

Luke 6:31

Do to others as you would have them do to you.








Title: Re: WOMEN'S RIGHTS and FEMINISM
Post by: Ze_sAiNt on December 10, 2017, 08:16:59 AM
@BabyShark

You can post all the YouTube videos you want in an attempt to promote a twisted view of Islam, but you're only fooling yourself.

Despite all the mutilating and stoning and clitoris cutting and whatever else you are trying to attribute to Islam, it's mind-boggling to know that Islam is still the fastest growing religion in the world today and worse even for you to digest, American women are flocking towards Islam.  You are unable to account for that.  That, and the other point I mentioned earlier that you dare not comment on until now:

The picture that David Wood is trying to paint of Muhammad is that of an oppressor and a dictator.  But if you want to know the truth about Muhammad, then let's hear what non-muslim (and mostly christian) scholars and historians have to say about Muhammad and Islam:

1. George Bernard Shaw - The Genuine Islam Vol.No.8, 1936

"If any religion had the chance of ruling over England, nay Europe within the next hundred years, it could be Islam."

“I believe if a man like him were to assume the dictatorship of the modern world he would succeed in solving its problems in a way that would bring much needed peace and happiness.
I have studied him - the man and in my opinion is far from being an anti–Christ. He must be called the Savior of Humanity.
I have prophesied about the faith of Mohammad that it would be acceptable the Europe of tomorrow as it is beginning to be acceptable to the Europe of today.”


2. Nepolean Bonaparte – Quoted in Christian Cherfils BONAPARTE ET ISLAM (PARIS  1914)

“I hope the time is not far off when I shall be able to unite all the wise and educated men of all the countries and establish a uniform regime based on the principles of Qur'an which alone are true and which alone can lead men to happiness.”


3. M.K.Gandhi, YOUNG INDIA, 1924

"...I became more than ever convinced that it was not the sword that won a place for Islam in those days in the scheme of life. It was the rigid simplicity, the utter self-effacement of the prophet, the scrupulous regard for his pledges, his intense devotion to his friends and followers, his intrepidity, his fearlessness, his absolute trust in God and his own mission. These, and not the sword carried everything before them and surmounted every trouble."


4. Lamartine - Histoire de la Turquie, Paris 1854, Vol II, pp. 276-77

"If greatness of purpose, smallness of means, and astounding results are the three criteria of human genius, who could dare to compare any great man in modern history with Muhammad? The most famous men created arms, laws and empires only. They founded, if anything at all, no more than material powers which often crumbled away before their eyes. This man moved not only armies, legislations, empires, peoples and dynasties, but millions of men in one-third of the then inhabited world; and more than that, he moved the altars, the gods, the religions, the ideas, the beliefs and souls... the forbearance in victory, his ambition, which was entirely devoted to one idea and in no manner striving for an empire; his endless prayers, his mystic conversations with God, his death and his triumph after death; all these attest not to an imposture but to a firm conviction which gave him the power to restore a dogma. This dogma was twofold, the unit of God and the immateriality of God; the former telling what God is, the latter telling what God is not; the one overthrowing false gods with the sword, the other starting an idea with words.

"Philosopher, orator, apostle, legislator, warrior, conqueror of ideas, restorer of rational dogmas, of a cult without images; the founder of twenty terrestrial empires and of one spiritual empire, that is Muhammad. As regards all standards by which human greatness may be measured, we may well ask, is there any man greater than he?"


5. Edward Gibbon and Simon Ocklay  - History of the Saracen Empire, London, 1870, p. 54

"It is not the propagation but the permanency of his religion that deserves our wonder, the same pure and perfect impression which he engraved at Mecca and Medina is preserved, after the revolutions of twelve centuries by the Indian, the African and the Turkish proselytes of the Koran...The Mahometans have uniformly withstood the temptation of reducing the object of their faith and devotion to a level with the senses and imagination of man. 'I believe in One God and Mahomet the Apostle of God', is the simple and invariable profession of Islam. The intellectual image of the Deity has never been degraded by any visible idol; the honors of the prophet have never transgressed the measure of human virtue, and his living precepts have restrained the gratitude of his disciples within the bounds of reason and religion."


6. Rev. Bosworth Smith, Mohammed and Mohammadanism, London 1874, p. 92

"He was Caesar and Pope in one; but he was Pope without Pope's pretensions, Caesar without the legions of Caesar: without a standing army, without a bodyguard, without a palace, without a fixed revenue; if ever any man had the right to say that he ruled by the right divine, it was Mohammed, for he had all the power without its instruments and without its supports."


7. Annie Besant, The Life and Teachings of Muhammad, Madras 1932, p. 4

"It is impossible for anyone who studies the life and character of the great Prophet of Arabia, who knows how he taught and how he lived, to feel anything but reverence for that mighty Prophet, one of the great messengers of the Supreme. And although in what I put to you I shall say many things which may be familiar to many, yet I myself feel whenever I re-read them, a new way of admiration, a new sense of reverence for that mighty Arabian teacher."


8. Montgomery Watt, Mohammad at Mecca, Oxford 1953, p. 52

"His readiness to undergo persecutions for his beliefs, the high moral character of the men who believed in him and looked up to him as leader, and the greatness of his ultimate achievement – all argue his fundamental integrity. To suppose Muhammad an impostor raises more problems than it solves. Moreover, none of the great figures of history is so poorly appreciated in the West as Muhammad."


9. James A. Michener, 'Islam: The Misunderstood Religion' in Reader's Digest (American Edition), May 1955, pp. 68-70

"Muhammad, the inspired man who founded Islam, was born about A.D. 570 into an Arabian tribe that worshipped idols. Orphaned at birth, he was always particularly solicitous of the poor and needy, the widow and the orphan, the slave and the downtrodden. At twenty he was already a successful businessman, and soon became director of camel caravans for a wealthy widow. When he reached twenty-five, his employer, recognizing his merit, proposed marriage. Even though she was fifteen years older, he married her, and as long as she lived, remained a devoted husband.

"Like almost every major prophet before him, Muhammad fought shy of serving as the transmitter of God's word, sensing his own inadequacy. But the angel commanded 'Read'. So far as we know, Muhammad was unable to read or write, but he began to dictate those inspired words which would soon revolutionize a large segment of the earth: "There is one God."

"In all things Muhammad was profoundly practical. When his beloved son Ibrahim died, an eclipse occurred, and rumors of God's personal condolence quickly arose. Whereupon Muhammad is said to have announced, 'An eclipse is a phenomenon of nature. It is foolish to attribute such things to the death or birth of a human-being.'"

"At Muhammad's own death an attempt was made to deify him, but the man who was to become his administrative successor killed the hysteria with one of the noblest speeches in religious history: 'If there are any among you who worshipped Muhammad, he is dead. But if it is God you worshipped, He lives forever.'"


10. Michael H. Hart, The 100: A Ranking of the Most Influential Persons in History, New York: Hart Publishing Company, Inc. 1978, p. 33

"My choice of Muhammad to lead the list of the world's most influential persons may surprise some readers and may be questioned by others, but he was the only man in history who was supremely successful on both the religious and secular level."

"...It is probable that the relative influence of Muhammad on Islam has been larger than the combined influence of Jesus Christ and St. Paul on Christianity. ...It is this unparalleled combination of secular and religious influence which I feel entitles Muhammad to be considered the most influential single figure in human history."


11. Sarojini Naidu, the famous Indian poetess says – S. Naidu, Ideals of Islam, Speeches and Writings, Madaras, 1918

“It was the first religion that preached and practiced democracy; for, in the mosque, when the call for prayer is sounded and worshippers are gathered together, the democracy of Islam is embodied five times a day when the peasant and king kneel side by side and proclaim: 'God Alone is Great'... “


12. Thomas Caryle – Heros and Heros Worship

“…The lies (Western slander) which well-meaning zeal has heaped round this man (Muhammed) are disgraceful to ourselves only…How one man single-handedly, could weld warring tribes and wandering Bedouins into a most powerful and civilized nation in less than two decades….A silent great soul, one of that who cannot but be earnest. He was to kindle the world; the world’s Maker had ordered so."


13. Stanley Lane-Poole – Table Talk of the Prophet

“He was the most faithful protector of those he protected, the sweetest and most agreeable in conversation. Those who saw him were suddenly filled with reverence; those who came near him loved him; they who described him would say, "I have never seen his like either before or after." He was of great taciturnity, but when he spoke it was with emphasis and deliberation, and no one could forget what he said...”


14. Dr. William Draper, "A History of the Intellectual Development of Europe"

"Four years after the death of Justinian, A.D. 569, was born in Mecca, in Arabia, the man who, of all men, has exercised the greatest influence upon the human race... To be the religious head of many empires, to guide the daily life of one-third of the human race, may perhaps justify the title of a Messenger of God."


15. Leo Tolstoy - The Rule of Prophet Mohammed

“Muhammad has always been standing higher than the Christianity. He does not consider god as a human being and never makes himself equal to God. Muslims worship nothing except God and Muhammad is his Messenger. There is no any mystery and secret in it.”


16. K. S. Ramakrishna Rao - 'Mohammed: The Prophet of Islam,' 1989

"Today after a lapse of fourteen centuries, the life and teachings of Muhammad have survived without the slightest loss, alteration or interpolation. They offer the same undying hope for treating mankind’s many ills, which they did when he was alive. This is not a claim of Muhammad’s followers but also the inescapable conclusion forced upon by a critical and unbiased history."

"The personality of Muhammad is most difficult to get the whole truth of it. Only a glimpse of him I can catch. What dramatic succession of picturesque scenes? There is Muhammad the Prophet; there is Muhammad the General; Muhammad the King; Muhammad the Warrior; Muhammad the Businessman; Muhammad the Preacher; Muhammad the Philosopher; Muhammad the Statesman; Muhammad the Orator; Muhammad the Reformer; Muhammad the Refuge of Orphans; Muhammad the Protector of Slaves; Muhammad the Emancipator of Women; Muhammad the Judge; Muhammad the Saint... In all these magnificent roles and in all these departments of human activities he is equally a hero."




@BabyShark

These historians and famous personalities whom I quoted above have no ulterior motive for making those statements about Muhammad, unlike David Wood who is following his own anti-Islamic propaganda.  So, the choice is yours... would you rather listen to David Wood or the testimonies of these unbiased authors?


I'll end this post by quoting a beautiful verse from the Bible that shows you how to treat your wife with respect:

If two men are fighting and the wife of one of the men comes to save her husband's life, YOU SHOULD CUT OFF HER HAND.

"When men strive together one with another, and the wife of the one draweth near for to deliver her husband out of the hand of him that smiteth him, and putteth forth her hand, and taketh him by the secrets: Then thou shalt cut off her hand, thine eye shall not pity her." [Deuteronomy 25:11-12]

So, every Christian man who loves his wife should cut off her wife's hand when she comes to her rescue.  And this is how the "Loving God" of the Bible teaches you to show love and respect to your wife.

I rest my case.
Title: Re: WOMEN'S RIGHTS and FEMINISM
Post by: LiveFreeorDie on December 10, 2017, 09:40:17 AM
@Ze_sAiNt

I'm relieved to see we are finally both on the same page in caring about human rights and stopping abuse!

Let's join together to protest the abuse happening within our religions.

I will stand in front of a local church holding a sign reading "Stop Hand Amputation" and you will stand in front of a local mosque holding a sign reading "Stop Female Genital Mutilation, Wife-Beating, Child Marriage, and Stoning Women".

We will each take a picture of ourselves with our signs in front of the buildings and post them in this forum.

Ok?
Title: Re: WOMEN'S RIGHTS and FEMINISM
Post by: Ze_sAiNt on December 11, 2017, 06:06:26 AM
@BabyShark

If you think that 'hand amputation' is the only type of abuse promoted in the Bible, you are sadly mistaken.  I was only giving you a flavor of the kind of lunacy you are condoning by letting people read the Bible.  Your sign should actually read "BAN THE BIBLE" instead because of the immorality and violence it contains.

But wait a minute... a Christian lady already appealed to have the Bible banned!  Anne Spicer, an Irish Christian lady made an appeal to the Irish Censorship Board in 1988 to have the Bible banned.  Here is the quote from the Irish newspaper "The Canberra Times", Friday February 12, 1988:

DUBLIN, Thursday (Reuter), -
A Dublin housewife has asked Irish censors to ban the Bible because she says it glorifies violence, accepts the sexual abuse of young girls and supports mutilation.

"Mutilation and genocide coupled with graphic obscenity and ritual murder is a prominent theme and indeed many of the heroes and heroines are extolled for their murderous ability and promiscuous prowess," 34-year-old Mrs Anne Spicer said.

(http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/ah12/ze_saint/Ban%20the%20bible%20-%20its%20violent_zpse7vhwulk.jpeg)

And she had a very valid point.  Because when you read the Bible, you find that:

1) There are 10 cases of incest in the Bible.  It depicts the types and types of incest that someone can commit.  One example is a father-in-law having intercourse with his daughter-in-law (Genesis 38:12-18)

As a result, incest has reached epidemic proportions in America says Reverend Jimmy Swaggart in his book "Incest : the dark stain on our society, 1987".

Dr. Vernon Jones, an American psychologist of great repute, carried out experiments on groups of school children to whom certain stories were being read. And he said, “These stories make certain slight but permanent changes in character even in the narrow classroom situation.” The type of stories that you read will create the type of mentality that you are going to have.

2) It is a textbook on rape / gang-rape.  Here are a few examples:

- If you want to know how to rape your own sister, the Bible tells you how to (2 Samuel 13:6).

- Wholesale rape between son and 10 of his father's wives (2 Samuel 16:22)

3) It contains pornographic materials - things no decent man could ever read to his wife, his daughter, his sister or even to his fiancée if she is a good woman.

Read Ezekiel Chapter 23 "Whoredoms of the 2 Sisters", Ezekiel Chapter 16 "Jerusalem, the Insatiable Whore", and more and more... I dare not quote verses of these chapters here, else I might be banned for vulgarity and obscenity!

4) It contains verses promoting violence - like:

- “Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.” [Numbers 31:17-18]

- "He struck down some of the men of Beth-shemesh because they had looked into the ark of the LORD. He struck down of all the people, 50,070 men, and the people mourned because the LORD had struck the people with a great slaughter." [1 Samuel 6:19]

- "Then the Philistines seized him and gouged out his eyes; and they brought him down to Gaza and bound him with bronze chains, and he was a grinder in the prison." [Judges 16:21]

- "Then David commanded the young men, and they killed them and cut off their hands and feet and hung them up beside the pool in Hebron But they took the head of Ish-bosheth and buried it in the grave of Abner in Hebron." [2 Samuel 4:12]


No wonder George Bernard Shaw said about the Bible:

“THE MOST DANGEROUS BOOK ON EARTH “(the Bible), KEEP IT UNDER LOCK AND KEY.” Keep the Bible out of your children's reach.

(https://factszz.files.wordpress.com/2015/01/cicpaddw0aar_g0.jpg?w=924&h=553)


@BabyShark

You are being beaten again and again at your own game.  Everything you have said about Islam and the Qur'an has backfired on you.  My advice to you is, as Jesus rightly said:

"Do not judge others, and you will not be judged. For you will be treated as you treat others. The standard you use in judging is the standard by which you will be judged." [Matthew 7:1-3]
Title: Re: WOMEN'S RIGHTS and FEMINISM
Post by: LiveFreeorDie on December 11, 2017, 04:50:17 PM
First of all, this is not a game. These topics have to do with real life.

There are real life girls and women being abused, tortured, mutilated, stoned, beaten, raped, and killed every day in Islamic countries. This is reality.

This is not a game.

I am not here to "win" a "game". I like games and I like to play, but this discussion on truth, reality, beliefs, and practices isn't one of them.

I am here to speak for the victims of abuse and oppression, because I care about them. And I'm here to share the truth of the love of Jesus with you and all people because I care about you. I'm not here to hurt you.

I understand that it feels like reporting facts and sharing interviews of real people who were once Muslims and lived in Islamic countries where brutal abuse of women and girls is the norm and quoting Islamic texts is an attack on you. But my ultimate purpose is to help you realize that Muhammad was not a good guy and that his teachings are not good teachings. He lived a very violent life and killed a lot of people in his life. He was not faithful in marriage, having sex with numerous girls and women, supposedly with the endorsement of "Allah". He married and raped a child. I haven't researched his other wives and sex partners yet, but Aisha was 6 when he "married" her and 9 when he consummated the marriage. He promoted the cutting off of female genitals, which is still cruelly practiced to this very day. He promoted beating women. These are documented in Islamic writings as I have shown in previous posts. But my purpose is to open your eyes to the truth, so you may reject this evil man's false teachings as the work of the devil that they are, and realize your need for a Savior from sin that WE ALL NEED.

Jesus has loved you and me so much He gave His holy life to save us. This is the truth. This truth will set you free from bondage to sin and evil.

You can feel it inside of you, that cutting off little girls' genitals as they struggle and scream while being held down by many forceful hands is wrong. Yet Muhammad endorsed it.

You can feel inside of you, that a man beating a woman is abuse. He is meant to love and protect her. You know it's wrong. Yet Muhammad endorsed it.

You know that murdering people is wrong (even if they are Jews, Christians, atheists, or other non-Muslims), yet Muhammad endorsed Jihad against infidels until all are subjugated and no one worships any god but Allah, who is a false god.

Your conscience tells you these things are wrong. Even the people practicing these things know they are wrong. All the testimonies in the videos indicate that female genital mutilation is something they do not discuss openly. Little girls were threatened with death if they told anyone what happened. They are HIDING it, because they KNOW it's wrong. All of us have a God-given conscience that tells us right from wrong.

Muhammad was wrong. Muhammad's work is from Satan, not God. Satan often tries to copy and pervert and twist what God's created and what God's said and turn a beautiful thing into an ugly thing.

I understand that you're frustrated. I do. I feel for you. If you feel the need to throw insults my way, I understand. I know that according to Islam, saying the ugly truth about Muhammad or criticizing the teachings of Islam is punishable by death. I understand if you want me dead. I know where I'm going when I die. I know Jesus and heaven are waiting for me on the other side.

I want you to have that same comfort, that same knowledge, that your sins have been paid for, that you are loved, you are forgiven, you are precious and valuable, as is each human being to God. God made each of us, boys and girls, men and women, and each one of us is loved.

The true and living God wants people to live in harmony, love, and peace.

1 Corinthians 13:4-8a

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8 Love never fails.


God's love put us first. He sacrificed Himself to act in our best interest, so we could be saved from the penalty of our sins.

That's how God wants us to love each other as humans on earth.

Matthew 22

37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”


Romans 5:8

6 For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. 10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11 And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.


I am praying for you and Tora and Lightbringer, and others. I'm not your enemy. I am actually pretty confident that in time, within 5 years, you will become a Christian. Your heart is searching for the truth. I pray that you will find it.

But I understand if you see me the way you were raised to see me, as an enemy to be killed because I will not worship Allah nor will I tolerate the teachings that encourage abuse of women and girls and promote killing people. And if death comes to me one day for speaking the truth to help people, then I can only hope and pray that I can be brave in the face of the pain that will come before it.

I will also comment on a number of things that you've brought up, in the near future, but the reason I'm holding back from doing so at this time is because the most important thing for you to see and know is that you are loved. I want you to have some time to focus on how much you are loved by the living God.

So when I fight for the truth, when you see me in "combat" mode, asserting the truths of God's Word, recognize that I'm doing it because I care about you. And I care about truth.

I want you to know love, real love, the love of God that never dies, that has turned me and you from sinful wretch to beloved treasure.

You are a treasure to the living God.

We have all sinned and earned hell.
(https://i.imgur.com/ENrriiY.jpg)

This is what He stepped out of heaven's glory to do to save mankind from its own sinfulness. This was His plan to save us, because the wages of sin is death and hell, and we had earned it, but God poured His wrath on a perfect, holy, innocent substitute, Jesus Christ, who literally loved us to death.
(https://i.imgur.com/2QkaF56.jpg)

So He could have us with Him in heaven!
(https://i.imgur.com/zX6BTjA.jpg)
Title: Re: WOMEN'S RIGHTS and FEMINISM
Post by: Ze_sAiNt on December 12, 2017, 03:25:54 AM
First of all, this is not a game. These topics have to do with real life.

There are real life girls and women being abused, tortured, mutilated, stoned, beaten, raped, and killed every day in Islamic countries. This is reality.

This is not a game.

I'm still baffled by your poor understanding of your own native English language.  So, here we go...  This is English 101 for today:

Being beaten at one's own game is an idiom.  It does not actually mean a game is being played.  It means: "To defeat or triumph over someone by using their own strengths, techniques, or tactics to one's own advantage"

Isn't that what you've been trying to do all along?  You use tactics of quoting verses from the Qur'an and using Hadith quotations out of their historical context to prove Islam promotes violence.  So I showed you that your very own Bible glorifies violence, accepts the sexual abuse of young girls and supports mutilation, in the words of Anne Spicer.

Either you can't understand English or you are playing dumb and taking everything I say in its literal meaning, thereby avoiding to comment on the core of the matter by distracting the readers with beautiful necklaces of words?  I'll let the others be the judge of that...

I am here to speak for the victims of abuse and oppression, because I care about them.

Great.  So let's start with the victims of abuse in your own country, America:

The following facts and statistics, drawn from the National Center for Victims of Crime "Child Sexual Abuse" fact sheet, reveals the scope of child sexual abuse in the U.S. and its devastating long-term impact on a child's life:

1. The almost 90,000 cases of child sexual abuse reported each year fall far short of the actual number. Abuse frequently goes unreported because child victims are afraid to tell anyone what happened and the legal procedure for validating an episode is difficult. (American Academy of Child & Adolescent Psychiatry)

2. An estimated 25% of girls and 16% of boys experience sexual abuse before they are 18 years old. Statistics for boys may be falsely low because of reporting techniques. (Ann Botash, MD, in Pediatric Annual, May 1997.)

Of all victims of sexual assault reported to law enforcement agencies:
- 67% were under age 18
- 34% were under age 12
- 14% were under age 6

3. Of offenders who victimized children under age 6, 40% were under age 18. (Bureau of Justice Statistics, 2000.)

4. Despite what children are taught about "stranger danger," most child victims are abused by someone they know and trust. When the abuser is not a family member, the victim is more often a boy than a girl. The results of a three-state study of reported rape survivors under age 12 revealed the following about offenders:

- 96% were known to their victims
- 50% were acquaintances or friends
- 20% were fathers
- 16% were relatives
- 4% were strangers
(Advocates for Youth, 1995)

5. Girls are the victims of incest and/or intrafamily sexual abuse much more frequently than boys. Between 33-50% of perpetrators who sexually abuse girls are family members, while only 10-20% of those who sexually abuse boys are intrafamily perpetrators. Intrafamily abuse continues over a longer period of time than sexual abuse outside the family, and some forms -- such as parent-child abuse -- have more serious and lasting consequences.(Finkelhor, 1994.)

6. Behavioral changes are often the first signs of sexual abuse. These can include nervous or aggressive behavior toward adults, early and age-inappropriate sexual provocativeness, alcohol consumption and the use of other drugs. Boys are more likely than girls to act out or behave in aggressive and antisocial ways. (Finkelhor, 1994.)

7. The consequences of child sexual abuse are wide-ranging and varied. They can include:

- chronic depression
- low self-esteem
- sexual dysfunction
- multiple personalities

According to the American Medical Association, 20% of all victims develop serious long-term psychological problems. They may take the form of:

- dissociative responses and other signs of post-traumatic stress syndrome
- chronic states of arousal
- nightmares
- flashbacks
- venereal disease
- anxiety over sex
- fear of exposing the body during medical exams
("Child Sexual Abuse: Does the Nation Face an Epidemic - or a Wave of Hysteria?" CQ Researcher, 1993.)


This is what happens when you read "the most dangerous book on Earth" which promotes sexual abuse of young girls, condones incest and glorifies rape.  People's minds are getting programmed by such immorality.  YOU need to help them by telling them to STOP READING SUCH FILTH IN THE BIBLE.  This is not a Book of God.  God doesn't 'inspire' people to write such immorality.  This is Satan's handiwork.

But this is just the tip of the iceberg.  There are more and more problems in America, according to Reverand Jimmy Swaggart.

He writes in his book on "The Dangers of Alcohol":

There are 11 million drunkards in America and 44 million heavy drinkers. And Jimmy Swaggart says he sees no difference between the two. That means 55 million, he sees all of them to be drunkards.

What did this?  The Bible.  In his very first miracle, Jesus turned water into wine (John 2:7-10) and since then, wine has flowed like water in Christendom.  There's no stopping it now.  And it's the same W-I-N-E that Lot drank and had sex with his own daughters according to the Bible.

And further, according to Reverand Billy Graham in his book on "Homosexuality", he says: "If God doesn't soon bring judgment upon America, He'll have to go back and apologize to Sodom and Gomorrah!".  You now have millions of gays and lesbians in America and your statistics tell us that the numbers are not about to decrease in the future.  How are you dealing with this problem?

Then you have pornography that is being depicted in the Bible.  Ezekiel Chapter 23 "Whoredoms of the 2 Sisters", Ezekiel Chapter 16 "Jerusalem, the Insatiable Whore" to name a few.  The more people read this Bible, the more they become programmed to believe that porn is acceptable.

So BabyShark, before you go all 'Mother Theresa' and try to change the world, start by helping with the victims in your own country.  American Christian families are suffering.  They are being torn apart.  The Bible has caused (and is still causing) chaos in the life of innocent Christians.  It's is time to stop all this.  Pick up your "BAN THE BIBLE" sign and start propagating this to the world.  The world WILL become a better place with your help.

I pray to God that He helps you in this mission. Amen.
Title: Re: WOMEN'S RIGHTS and FEMINISM
Post by: LiveFreeorDie on December 13, 2017, 01:49:44 PM
DOES THE BIBLE PROMOTE VIOLENCE?

your very own Bible glorifies violence

This statement is false.

The Bible is a historical text and contains actual, factual recorded eyewitness accounts of events that took place, including a lot of evil committed by a lot of people (such as incest, rape, murder, etc.) The Bible absolutely does not promote incest or rape or violence.

The "Stop Hand Amputation" sign I mentioned would get some confused looks and some laughs, and possibly someone might come talk to me to ask what I'm talking about. Obviously, there is no hand amputation problem within the Christian church. I've been to probably upwards of 50 different Christian churches in my lifetime (I've moved a lot, and when I've travellled, I've often visited and worshipped at local churches wherever I am) and this just doesn't happen. It's laughable.

The verse in the Bible is talking about civil laws for a specific time in a specific place in history, not universal rules for all people of all time. And I suspect, that even at that time, there would be a paucity of handless individuals, since the punishment would likely serve as a strong deterrent to women against crushing and destroying a man's testicles when he is vulnerable and engaged in combat with another man. What do you think should be the punishment for destroying a man's testicles and likely rendering him infertile? In Islam, women and girls can be beaten, mutilated, raped, forcibly married, and killed on a whim. They don't even have to commit a crime. And the men face no punishment or penalty for these abuses because females are considered property and have no rights.

If you held up a sign in front of a mosque reading "Stop Female Genital Mutilation, Forced Marriage, Wife-Beating, and Stoning Women," in America you would likely be threatened, harassed, arrested, but in a Muslim-dominated country, you would be killed, with torture possibly preceding that. And that killing of you for dissent is very much approved of by the Quran, which commands the killing of infidels and dissenters who dare question the teachings of Muhammad.

This topic will be expanded later, probably with a new post, as time allows.

DOES THE BIBLE PROMOTE RAPE/INCEST?

2) It is a textbook on rape / gang-rape.  Here are a few examples:

- If you want to know how to rape your own sister, the Bible tells you how to (2 Samuel 13:6).


The True Story Recorded in the Bible of Amnon and Tamar (2 Samuel 13)

In the course of time, Amnon son of David fell in love with Tamar, the beautiful sister of Absalom son of David.

2 Amnon became so obsessed with his sister Tamar that he made himself ill. She was a virgin, and it seemed impossible for him to do anything to her.

3 Now Amnon had an adviser named Jonadab son of Shimeah, David’s brother. Jonadab was a very shrewd man. 4 He asked Amnon, “Why do you, the king’s son, look so haggard morning after morning? Won’t you tell me?”

Amnon said to him, “I’m in love with Tamar, my brother Absalom’s sister.”

5 “Go to bed and pretend to be ill,” Jonadab said. “When your father comes to see you, say to him, ‘I would like my sister Tamar to come and give me something to eat. Let her prepare the food in my sight so I may watch her and then eat it from her hand.’”

6 So Amnon lay down and pretended to be ill. When the king came to see him, Amnon said to him, “I would like my sister Tamar to come and make some special bread in my sight, so I may eat from her hand.”

7 David sent word to Tamar at the palace: “Go to the house of your brother Amnon and prepare some food for him.” 8 So Tamar went to the house of her brother Amnon, who was lying down. She took some dough, kneaded it, made the bread in his sight and baked it. 9 Then she took the pan and served him the bread, but he refused to eat.

“Send everyone out of here,” Amnon said. So everyone left him. 10 Then Amnon said to Tamar, “Bring the food here into my bedroom so I may eat from your hand.” And Tamar took the bread she had prepared and brought it to her brother Amnon in his bedroom. 11 But when she took it to him to eat, he grabbed her and said, “Come to bed with me, my sister.”

12 “No, my brother!” she said to him. “Don’t force me! Such a thing should not be done in Israel! Don’t do this wicked thing. 13 What about me? Where could I get rid of my disgrace? And what about you? You would be like one of the wicked fools in Israel. Please speak to the king; he will not keep me from being married to you.” 14 But he refused to listen to her, and since he was stronger than she, he raped her.

15 Then Amnon hated her with intense hatred. In fact, he hated her more than he had loved her. Amnon said to her, “Get up and get out!”

16 “No!” she said to him. “Sending me away would be a greater wrong than what you have already done to me.”

But he refused to listen to her. 17 He called his personal servant and said, “Get this woman out of my sight and bolt the door after her.” 18 So his servant put her out and bolted the door after her. She was wearing an ornate robe, for this was the kind of garment the virgin daughters of the king wore. 19 Tamar put ashes on her head and tore the ornate robe she was wearing. She put her hands on her head and went away, weeping aloud as she went.

20 Her brother Absalom said to her, “Has that Amnon, your brother, been with you? Be quiet for now, my sister; he is your brother. Don’t take this thing to heart.” And Tamar lived in her brother Absalom’s house, a desolate woman.

21 When King David heard all this, he was furious. 22 And Absalom never said a word to Amnon, either good or bad; he hated Amnon because he had disgraced his sister Tamar.
Absalom Kills Amnon

23 Two years later, when Absalom’s sheepshearers were at Baal Hazor near the border of Ephraim, he invited all the king’s sons to come there. 24 Absalom went to the king and said, “Your servant has had shearers come. Will the king and his attendants please join me?”

25 “No, my son,” the king replied. “All of us should not go; we would only be a burden to you.” Although Absalom urged him, he still refused to go but gave him his blessing.

26 Then Absalom said, “If not, please let my brother Amnon come with us.”

The king asked him, “Why should he go with you?” 27 But Absalom urged him, so he sent with him Amnon and the rest of the king’s sons.

28 Absalom ordered his men, “Listen! When Amnon is in high spirits from drinking wine and I say to you, ‘Strike Amnon down,’ then kill him. Don’t be afraid. Haven’t I given you this order? Be strong and brave.” 29 So Absalom’s men did to Amnon what Absalom had ordered. Then all the king’s sons got up, mounted their mules and fled.

30 While they were on their way, the report came to David: “Absalom has struck down all the king’s sons; not one of them is left.” 31 The king stood up, tore his clothes and lay down on the ground; and all his attendants stood by with their clothes torn.

32 But Jonadab son of Shimeah, David’s brother, said, “My lord should not think that they killed all the princes; only Amnon is dead. This has been Absalom’s express intention ever since the day Amnon raped his sister Tamar. 33 My lord the king should not be concerned about the report that all the king’s sons are dead. Only Amnon is dead.”

34 Meanwhile, Absalom had fled.

Now the man standing watch looked up and saw many people on the road west of him, coming down the side of the hill. The watchman went and told the king, “I see men in the direction of Horonaim, on the side of the hill.”

35 Jonadab said to the king, “See, the king’s sons have come; it has happened just as your servant said.”

36 As he finished speaking, the king’s sons came in, wailing loudly. The king, too, and all his attendants wept very bitterly.

37 Absalom fled and went to Talmai son of Ammihud, the king of Geshur. But King David mourned many days for his son.

38 After Absalom fled and went to Geshur, he stayed there three years. 39 And King David longed to go to Absalom, for he was consoled concerning Amnon’s death.



Let's look at the incident described in the Bible.

No, my brother!” she said to him. “Don’t force me! Such a thing should not be done in Israel! Don’t do this wicked thing. 13 What about me? Where could I get rid of my disgrace? And what about you? You would be like one of the wicked fools in Israel. Please speak to the king; he will not keep me from being married to you.” 14 But he refused to listen to her, and since he was stronger than she, he raped her.

15 Then Amnon hated her with intense hatred. In fact, he hated her more than he had loved her. Amnon said to her, “Get up and get out!”

16 “No!” she said to him. “Sending me away would be a greater wrong than what you have already done to me.”

But he refused to listen to her. 17 He called his personal servant and said, “Get this woman out of my sight and bolt the door after her.” 18 So his servant put her out and bolted the door after her. She was wearing an ornate robe, for this was the kind of garment the virgin daughters of the king wore. 19 Tamar put ashes on her head and tore the ornate robe she was wearing. She put her hands on her head and went away, weeping aloud as she went.


DON'T DO THIS WICKED THING. SUCH A THING SHOULD NOT BE DONE IN ISRAEL.

It is clear from this text that what Amnon did was EVIL. It happened. But the Bible does NOT APPROVE of what he did. It's telling the story to teach us something. Learning about the wicked deeds of other people should teach us to NOT do these harmful wicked things and to look at the painful and devastating consequences of evil.

An innocent woman was raped, disgraced and shamed, then thrown out. Horrible. Disgusting.

Tamar's brother Absalom was enraged and killed Amnon.

Don't mistake recording facts with endorsing the evils that are reported.

You wrote statistics about child abuse, how children are harmed. Does that prove you support child abuse? No, your reporting the facts of child abuse and statistics you found does not prove you support child abuse.

What DOES prove you support child abuse is that you support, protect, uphold, promote a religion whose belief system includes forcibly marrying little girls against their will, to be raped by adult men who traumatize and harm them physically, mentally, emotionally and a belief system that includes forcing little girls down with many hands while they scream and cry and flail, and adult hands forcing her legs open to cut off her private parts with a razor blade. This is torture. This is excruciatingly painful. This will prevent her from ever experiencing sexual pleasure in her life. Islam DOES promote abuse and torture and rape of children. This is factual, and supported with evidence both from eyewitnesses, videos of it happening, testimony from doctors/gynecologists who see these women as patients in "Western" countries like UK and USA, and from Islamic texts that prescribe it as a necessary thing for being a good Muslim, calling the chopping off of a girl's genitals with a euphemistic and inaccurate term "circumcision" (which in males is the removal of a small piece of skin, has health benefits for the man, and does not impede sexual pleasure at all).

If I did "female circumcision" to my child, I would go to jail, and possibly be executed by people angry at the injustice and torture of an innocent little girl.

Why does my white child deserve more protection than any other child? Why shouldn't ALL children be equally protected from having body parts removed without their consent, from being raped, from being tortured, from being forced into marriage with an adult?

I believe ALL children should be protected.

I do not think "culture" or "religion" should be any excuse to torture children.

It's wrong.

Title: Re: WOMEN'S RIGHTS and FEMINISM
Post by: LiveFreeorDie on December 13, 2017, 02:19:12 PM
DOES THE BIBLE PROMOTE PORNOGRAPHY, SEXUAL IMMORALITY, AND OBJECTIFYING WOMEN?

Then you have pornography that is being depicted in the Bible.  Ezekiel Chapter 23 "Whoredoms of the 2 Sisters", Ezekiel Chapter 16 "Jerusalem, the Insatiable Whore" to name a few.  The more people read this Bible, the more they become programmed to believe that porn is acceptable.

Jesus said in Matthew 5:28

But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

And "You shall not commit adultery" is God's law to protect people and families.

The Bible absolutely does not promote adultery or porn use or casual sex.

You are RIGHT in recognizing that United States of America (and Canada - I'm actually Canadian, but I identify as and America-loving American) the nation is FILLED with evil, wickedness, corruption, sin.

This is not BECAUSE of Christianity or because they follow the teachings of Christ, but because AMERICA has rejected God! Most Americans are NOT Christians. Even people that call themselves "Christian" are often people who do not read the Bible, do not worship God in church, do not know or care what the Bible teaches, and do not show any interest in even trying to follow its teachings. When I was in public school, in a class of about 25 students, I would often be the only Christian in my class, or at least the only Christian who was willing to tell others I was a Christian. It's not popular anymore around here. You get quickly labelled with all kinds of nonsense labels that are not based on truth or reason. There is a lot of hatred of Christians and persecution is being pushed into law (ie. saying that homosexuality is a sin is to be criminalized as "hate speech").

America has turned its back on God. There are so many people in power who are actively trying to get God out of everything, out of schools, out of the courtroom, out of public discourse, in favor of the great hoax of atheistic evolution which teaches that the world came about by chance, and that all this design magically appeared by unknown mechanisms (since NO mechanism exists which can account for the appearance of NEW information in the genetic code, only a scrambling of existing information), beginning with one unknown, unscientific, religiously-believed SELF-REPLICATING MOLECULE (that doesn't exist, but Richard Dawkins wants to believe in it anyways), not because of science, but because of a desire to do evil without judgement. People are religiously devoted to the lie of evolution, not because of science, but because they are rabidly aggressive in trying to remove God from the equation so they can follow their lusts.

All evidence that does not fit the theory of evolution is hidden.

There is AMPLE evidence that does not fit the theory.

A little off-topic, I suppose, but it is all related and connected. The way we behave comes out of what we believe.

If a person believes that we are just random, meaningless, purposeless, accidental particles in motion (as the false teaching of evolution asserts), then there is no right and wrong. There can't be. How could there be?

It's a completely incoherent, unreasonable worldview, to believe that racism, sexism, Christians, destroying the planet, bullying, judging, speaking your mind, violence, oppression, lying, hate, or ANYTHING is actually, factually undeniably BAD or WRONG, if there is no absolute truth and if we are just particles in motion, following the laws of physics.

How are there even laws of physics? How are there scientific laws? How is there order in the universe? The teaching of evolution cannot account for these things.

The fact is that most people throughout all of history have believed in some kind of supreme being/god/creator. Atheists are the minority, and it IS a religion, and it's a religion that can never form a coherent worldview.

Even Dawkins talks about good and evil (ie. the "evil" of the Bible and Christian values), all while promoting the idea that we are all just random particles in motion with no meaning, purpose, goal, or reason. It does not make sense for good or evil to exist, since they are outside of the realm of the physical. To call something good or bad implies that there is actually something more than the physical, since the physical cannot account for "good" or "evil".

So, Darwin proves that he actually believes in God, but just hates him (as the always-true, completely reliable and trustworthy Bible teaches):

Romans 1:18-32

18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. 32 Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

John 3:16-20

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed.

John 15:18-19

18 If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. 19 If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you.


The topic that led to all of this was my topic addressing casual sex (which Tora has advertised that he practices and believes in), because I believe it is very harmful to society as a whole and to individuals, and leave a trail of devastation in its wake. That was where Tora brought up Islam and which led to me researching the teachings of Islam and learning a great many things I did not previously know, including that female genital mutilation is prescribed by Muhammad and a requirement to be a good Muslim. This one fact alone is, in my mind, enough of a reason to scrap EVERYTHING this man taught.

Sexual immorality is rampant in USA, that is true. People today laugh at the idea of waiting until marriage to have sex.

It strikes me as ironic that Islam teaches the importance of women being "pure" and "virgin" to the extent that their sexual organs are cut off, usually in childhood, and their vaginas are sewn shut so they can't be entered, but a self-proclaimed Muslim (ie. Tora) is taking away the purity of women and promoting that behavior of using women for casual sex and then throwing them away.

I see no problems with having casual sex.

 It seems like a contradiction. So either Tora is not a real Muslim, or real Muslims are hypocrites who promote sexual purity to the point of sewing up girls' vaginas by force and keeping women locked in houses...but only for women...which isn't going to work out too well because Muslims also are against homosexuality, so the sex would have to be with women, and then they are destroying sexual purity by themselves being sexually promiscuous.

Hypocrisy.
Title: Re: WOMEN'S RIGHTS and FEMINISM
Post by: LiveFreeorDie on December 13, 2017, 02:30:14 PM
EZEKIEL 23 AND SEXUAL IMMORALITY

Then you have pornography that is being depicted in the Bible.  Ezekiel Chapter 23 "Whoredoms of the 2 Sisters", Ezekiel Chapter 16 "Jerusalem, the Insatiable Whore" to name a few.  The more people read this Bible, the more they become programmed to believe that porn is acceptable.

Ezekiel 23 describes how God's people had turned away from Him to commit adultery against God and He uses the picture of women being whores and harlots and being unfaithful, which God also calls adultery and does not condone.

Again, it is telling a historical account of how people acted with each other and acted towards God, which God is calling sin, and wrong, and saying He will judge wickedness.

Ezekiel 23:45-48

45 But righteous judges will sentence them to the punishment of women who commit adultery and shed blood, because they are adulterous and blood is on their hands.
46 “This is what the Sovereign Lord says: Bring a mob against them and give them over to terror and plunder. 47 The mob will stone them and cut them down with their swords; they will kill their sons and daughters and burn down their houses.

48 “So I will put an end to lewdness in the land, that all women may take warning and not imitate you. 49 You will suffer the penalty for your lewdness and bear the consequences of your sins of idolatry. Then you will know that I am the Sovereign Lord.”


God is absolutely NOT approving of adultery or bloodshed against innocents or the evils that were happening in the land. God is declaring His righteous judgement against evil deeds.

To say that Ezekiel 23 is promoting the use of pornography is ludicrous. Completely the opposite is true. God is calling people to repent of their evil deeds.
Title: Re: WOMEN'S RIGHTS and FEMINISM
Post by: LiveFreeorDie on December 13, 2017, 02:39:42 PM
DRUNKENNESS

There are 11 million drunkards in America and 44 million heavy drinkers. And Jimmy Swaggart says he sees no difference between the two. That means 55 million, he sees all of them to be drunkards.

What did this?  The Bible.  In his very first miracle, Jesus turned water into wine (John 2:7-10) and since then, wine has flowed like water in Christendom.  There's no stopping it now.  And it's the same W-I-N-E that Lot drank and had sex with his own daughters according to the Bible.

The Bible does not approve of drunkenness either.

Wine is a gift and can be enjoyed in moderation, but drinking excessively to drunkenness is not approved.

1 Peter 4:3

3 For you have spent enough time in the past doing what pagans choose to do—living in debauchery, lust, drunkenness, orgies, carousing and detestable idolatry.

1 Timothy 5:23

23 Stop drinking only water, and use a little wine because of your stomach and your frequent illnesses.

Ecclesiastes 9:7

7 Go, eat your food with gladness, and drink your wine with a joyful heart, for God has already approved what you do.

Proverbs 20:1

Wine is a mocker and beer a brawler;
    whoever is led astray by them is not wise.

Romans 13:13

13 Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in carousing and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy.

Proverbs 31:4-5

It is not for kings, Lemuel—
    it is not for kings to drink wine,
    not for rulers to crave beer,
5
lest they drink and forget what has been decreed,
    and deprive all the oppressed of their rights.

Galatians 5:19-21

19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Drinking in moderation is fine. Drinking excessively, which is often combined with sexual immorality, is sin.
Title: Re: WOMEN'S RIGHTS and FEMINISM
Post by: Ze_sAiNt on December 14, 2017, 09:46:34 AM
@BabyShark

Why does God have to go out of his way to relate to mankind such filthy and dirty stories in such detail in the Bible?  The kind of immorality that happens in America is a direct consequence of what you Christians are reading in your Bible.

The Bible gives us a beautiful test with regard to the 'inspired' words of God.  The Bible says:

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" [2 Timothy 3:16]

If the Bible is the word of God, it should prove one of these 4 points.  Any revelation coming from God should serve some purpose; it is not for people's entertainment.  There are lessons to be learnt from the inspired verses of the Bible.  And I agree.

Let's now apply this test to some particular verses of the Bible:

"Sometime later, Samson went to Gaza, saw a prostitute there, and went in to have sex with her. " [Judges 16:1]

So, Samson goes to Gaza, and saw a prostitute there and had sex with her.  FULL STOP.  There is not a single redeeming word that follows.  Now let's see how this fits into the test I gave above:

1) Doctrine - is that your teaching?  That when you go to a certain place and see a harlot, you have sex with her?
2) Reproof - was there any reproof given by God that He will punish Samson and put him in hell?
3) Correction - did God correct him in any way?  This guy, Samson, is instead portrayed as a hero!
4) Instruction in righteousness - not a single instruction is given.

Everyone will agree that you can't fit this verse anywhere.  And if you can't, it falls under pornography.

Let's have a look at another verse:

"While he was living there, Reuben had intercourse with Bilhah, his father’s concubine, and Jacob soon heard about it." [Genesis 35:22]

Note: Concubine and Wife are synonymous terms in the Bible (refer to Genesis 25:1 and 1 Chronocles 1:32 with regard to "Keturah").

So, Reuben had sex with his father's (Jacob's) wife and Jacob heard about it.  Then what?  Nothing.  FULL STOP.  NO MORE CONTEXT.

Jacob didn't react at all.  He didn't reprimand his son in the least.  He didn't even give him a slap!  So what is the moral?  It teaches you that INCEST IS CONDONED IN THE BIBLE.


Another example of how incest is glorified in the Bible is in Genesis Chapter 38.  You read about Judah, the father of the Jewish race.  He went to Timnath to shear his sheep.  On the way, he sees a woman sitting by the way side.  Thinking she's a prostitute (not knowing that it was actually his daughter-in-law), he comes up to and says:

"ALL RIGHT, HOW MUCH DO YOU CHARGE?" &

"She said what will you give me?" (To have sex with me).

"He answered, I WILL SEND YOU A YOUNG GOAT FROM MY FLOCK.

"She said, "All right, if you will give me something to keep as a pledge until you send the goat.

". . . He gave them (the pledges) to her. Then had INTERCOURSE, and she became pregnant. " [Genesis 38:15-18]


Out of this incestuous relationship between a father-in-law and his daughter-in-law, twins were born, who were destined to become the great-grand-fathers of Jesus Christ - see Matthew 1:3

"And Judas begat Phares and Zarah of Thamar ..."

(https://image.slidesharecdn.com/mattpptchapt01-178124507-101016101241-phpapp02/95/matthew-the-man-and-chapter-1-of-the-gospel-29-728.jpg?cb=1287225019)

(https://i1.wp.com/www.the13thenumeration.com/Blog13/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/Lineage-of-Yeshua1314_1000.jpg?resize=350%2C200)

Imagine, children of INCEST being glorified in a book of God.  What is the moral?
Title: Re: WOMEN'S RIGHTS and FEMINISM
Post by: LiveFreeorDie on December 14, 2017, 12:49:46 PM
@Ze_sAiNt

I want to thank you for allowing me the opportunity to engage in useful dialogue with you. It is a rare person who is actually willing to put themselves and their thoughts on the line like you are doing, and I respect you for it.

It's great to see that we are digging into material and able to talk about it, a Muslim and a Christian having a conversation and discussing beliefs and writings from the past.

I am really glad that you are digging into what's in the Bible and thinking about it, and sharing those thoughts. This is what we need more of in the world, is digging into and discussing ideas and thoughts and beliefs openly, rather than simply labelling people (as Adam J. Macleod discusses in his article) and refusing to engage in what the beliefs and views actually are, in order to be able to logically either agree or disagree.

I'm short on time atm, but will get on discussing these further with you!

Again, thank you for being willing to discuss and share and dialogue. I appreciate you for this. :)
Title: Re: WOMEN'S RIGHTS and FEMINISM
Post by: I hate naggers on January 18, 2018, 04:10:45 PM
Jordan Peterson debate on the gender pay gap, campus protests and postmodernism - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMcjxSThD54#) end of thread
Title: Re: WOMEN'S RIGHTS and FEMINISM
Post by: CumSavorer4385 on January 18, 2018, 04:54:46 PM
The Dark Professor
Title: Re: WOMEN'S RIGHTS and FEMINISM
Post by: tora is a simp bitch for billionaires on January 18, 2018, 05:47:20 PM
(https://i.redd.it/5x3kcqhfyta01.jpg)


 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: WOMEN'S RIGHTS and FEMINISM
Post by: I hate naggers on January 18, 2018, 06:25:34 PM
if you just put one more smiley face, i would be convinced. but because you didnt, i believe Mr. Jordan completely
Title: Re: WOMEN'S RIGHTS and FEMINISM
Post by: tora is a simp bitch for billionaires on January 18, 2018, 06:36:19 PM
he used lobsters to attempt to debunk the idea that hierarchical structures are a sociological construct...
Title: Re: WOMEN'S RIGHTS and FEMINISM
Post by: I hate naggers on January 18, 2018, 06:50:30 PM
do you know what "society" is?
Title: Re: WOMEN'S RIGHTS and FEMINISM
Post by: tora is a simp bitch for billionaires on January 18, 2018, 07:03:06 PM
do you know what "society" is?

do you barely try to make cogent arguments because you know you'll own yourself?
Title: Re: WOMEN'S RIGHTS and FEMINISM
Post by: I hate naggers on January 18, 2018, 07:21:59 PM
i think you ridicule arguments that refer to outside of society despite the fact thats EXACTLY what we should be doing.
in order to prove that its not "sociological construct", he pointed an example outside of society. do you know what this is? logic.

for some of us, its as simple as 2+2=4. others probably need to give it some thought
Title: Re: WOMEN'S RIGHTS and FEMINISM
Post by: tora is a simp bitch for billionaires on January 18, 2018, 07:40:20 PM
no that's simplistic unthinking babble and has nothing to do with logic. logical thinking requires a little more nuance than that. for one thing, lobsters are predominately solitary in the wild lol. it isn't until we impact their behaviour that they'll start to form little hierarchies. that's the other thing, our impact on animal behaviour.  this shit argument by your pseudo-intellectual hero doesn't even contemplate how we impact animal behaviour in significant ways, after destroying their natural environments for instance.
another question we should ask is why the fuck are we deriving our morals from wild animals? monkeys have hierarchies and it makes them prone to violence and continually fighting which each other. from this we can conclude that hierarchies aren't a good thing and need to be abolished.
if we start to derive our morals from animals we'll start flinging our shit at people and eating our shit as well, oh you already do that.
Title: Re: WOMEN'S RIGHTS and FEMINISM
Post by: I hate naggers on January 19, 2018, 04:20:29 AM
"why the fuck are we deriving our morals from wild animals?"
we are? read again

"i think you ridicule arguments that refer to outside of society despite the fact thats EXACTLY what we should be doing.
in order to prove that its not "sociological construct", he pointed an example outside of society. do you know what this is? logic. "
we are not looking for a moral compass, but rather answering a question whether something is or isnt a sociological construct
does this question make sense? to me, not at all, but apparently feminists care... and clearly our guy, as he's some kind of behavioral psychologist or w/e. its probably a matter of research and fun for him, but for some reason this offends certain (WRONG) points of view. Which are largely triggered when confronted with facts. Evidence. Real world example... if its true, i dont care about lobsters. I care about ostriches, pigeons and geese

(https://i.pinimg.com/736x/c9/4e/30/c94e30fedef1c09f34a958fc83674db9--pigeon-pictures-racing-pigeons.jpg)
Title: Re: WOMEN'S RIGHTS and FEMINISM
Post by: CumSavorer4385 on January 19, 2018, 07:47:35 AM
Jordan Peterson should be thrown into a vat of boiling sugar cane
Title: Re: WOMEN'S RIGHTS and FEMINISM
Post by: I hate naggers on January 19, 2018, 08:36:56 AM
why u mad tho, cum savorer?
Title: Re: WOMEN'S RIGHTS and FEMINISM
Post by: tora is a simp bitch for billionaires on January 19, 2018, 08:58:05 AM
"why the fuck are we deriving our morals from wild animals?"
we are? read again

"i think you ridicule arguments that refer to outside of society despite the fact thats EXACTLY what we should be doing.
in order to prove that its not "sociological construct", he pointed an example outside of society. do you know what this is? logic. "
we are not looking for a moral compass, but rather answering a question whether something is or isnt a sociological construct
does this question make sense? to me, not at all, but apparently feminists care... and clearly our guy, as he's some kind of behavioral psychologist or w/e. its probably a matter of research and fun for him, but for some reason this offends certain (WRONG) points of view. Which are largely triggered when confronted with facts. Evidence. Real world example... if its true, i dont care about lobsters. I care about ostriches, pigeons and geese


 looking at lobsters which only become hierarchical after we've 'constructed' an environment for that behaviour is the worst example to use when trying to invent an argument that our hierarchical structures aren't socially invented. now no real scientist agrees with peterson on anything, simple because he's wrong and argues against facts. he's a petulant moron who makes money off bigger drooling morons who want to hear him confirm their prejudices.
Title: Re: WOMEN'S RIGHTS and FEMINISM
Post by: tora is a simp bitch for billionaires on January 19, 2018, 08:58:52 AM
https://www.reddit.com/r/enoughpetersonspam/ (https://www.reddit.com/r/enoughpetersonspam/)
Title: Re: WOMEN'S RIGHTS and FEMINISM
Post by: I hate naggers on January 19, 2018, 09:56:16 AM
look bro, I dont know much about lobsters or if we're manipulating lobsters behaviour (lol) as you're suggesting.
even if lobster theory is not quite correct, maybe there's another animal that behaves certain ways, and it would be a very solid argument (of course, the closer in the evolutionary sense we are as a species, the better)
Title: Re: WOMEN'S RIGHTS and FEMINISM
Post by: tora is a simp bitch for billionaires on January 19, 2018, 10:03:00 AM
no it's not a solid argument dumbshit, that's the point. it's a very bad one your roommate makes after taking a huge hit off his bong.
Title: Re: WOMEN'S RIGHTS and FEMINISM
Post by: I hate naggers on January 19, 2018, 11:04:51 AM
it is. it really doesnt matter what you or anyone else have to say. its not a matter of hierarchy, society, lobsters or behaviour. Its about the foundations of LOGIC.

https://www.google.pl/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&ved=0ahUKEwiu0q_Bs-TYAhWhiKYKHRTWA_0QFgg9MAI&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.uow.edu.au%2F~bmaloney%2Fwuct121%2FLogicWeek6Lecture1.pdf&usg=AOvVaw1G6J8DzJwRkYd_aKd7r2Tm (https://www.google.pl/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&ved=0ahUKEwiu0q_Bs-TYAhWhiKYKHRTWA_0QFgg9MAI&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.uow.edu.au%2F~bmaloney%2Fwuct121%2FLogicWeek6Lecture1.pdf&usg=AOvVaw1G6J8DzJwRkYd_aKd7r2Tm)
3.6.1 and 3.6.2
Title: Re: WOMEN'S RIGHTS and FEMINISM
Post by: tora is a simp bitch for billionaires on January 19, 2018, 11:22:39 AM
you're drooling again
Title: Re: WOMEN'S RIGHTS and FEMINISM
Post by: CumSavorer4385 on January 19, 2018, 11:34:22 AM
why u mad tho, cum savorer?

Because I keep seeing this brainless retards videos online.
Title: Re: WOMEN'S RIGHTS and FEMINISM
Post by: I hate naggers on January 19, 2018, 11:46:04 AM
it's a very bad one your roommate makes after taking a huge hit off his bong.
maybe if youre a commie lowlife, you indeed have roommates and smoke pot. it doesnt appeal to me, though
Title: Re: WOMEN'S RIGHTS and FEMINISM
Post by: tora is a simp bitch for billionaires on January 19, 2018, 12:04:13 PM
 you're the one that thinks these shit arguments that sound like people are making them high off their asses are good. 'bro what about the lobsters tho'
Title: Re: WOMEN'S RIGHTS and FEMINISM
Post by: I hate naggers on January 19, 2018, 12:55:53 PM
not surprised you lack knowledge of fundamental logic rules. i dont know about lobsters