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31

Moderated General Discussion / Re: Testimonies from Ex-Muslims

« on: December 07, 2017, 12:18:51 PM »

Ze_Saint's position is that the Bible does not teach that Jesus is God.

That's another lie - and I would like you to retract that statement because I never said so.  Shall I repeat my words?  I said:

Jesus never said in the Bible that "I am God" or "Worship Me".  Here is a quote from one of my earlier posts:

Where does Jesus say in the Bible that He is God?  Prove it to me.  Quote me an unequivocal statement from the Bible where Jesus either says "I am God" or where he says "Worship me".  Do that, and I am ready to accept him as my God.  In fact, Jesus never made such a claim.  To make your task easy, find a red letter bible where every word Jesus ever spoke is in red.

You have yet to quote me those statements as well...

The self-proclaimed Muslim trio of Tora, lightbringer, and Ze_saint have, instead of sticking to discussion, insisted on repeated and unfounded personal attacks:

Quote from: Ze_sAiNt on December 04, 2017, 04:31:04 AM
You are just pathetic.


Quote from: Ze_sAiNt on November 29, 2017, 12:33:06 PM
I can see clearly that you are sick and you need help.

You know very well that those statements were made in the spirit of discussion and argument.  And I still concede you have a sickness... of lying - as I clearly showed above and in other posts how you are distorting facts and making false claims.  Don't get oversensitive.

Any and every single one of Ze_Saint's issues can be easily addressed, but the problem is that even when he is presented with evidence, he refused to acknowledge it.

IE.

Ze_Saint view: The Bible does not say Jesus is God.

Again, lies. Plain and simple.

Regarding David Wood, tell me some "lies" that he has spread.

I've watched a number of his videos, and he is basically reading out of the Quran and hadiths.

...yes he is, OUT OF CONTEXT.  Perhaps you got that from him too.  Quoting verses out of context makes it deceitful, hence they become lies.

What is your goal for me, from this interaction? What's your ideal outcome? Do you hope to turn me into a Muslim? What benefits does Islam offer, other than having to share your husband with 3 other women?

Ask those American converts to Islam why they did so?  What did Islam have to offer them?  Perhaps they may talk some sense out of you...

Quote from: Ze_sAiNt on November 29, 2017, 12:33:06 PM
you say Islam is a religion of hate and oppression...

Quote from: BabyShark on November 13, 2017, 09:20:37 PM

    I know Islam is a man-made concoction of hate and oppression


...but you do not construe that as an attack on Islam.  However, when I quote you biblical verses where it says God killed 50,070 men for looking into an Ark, expecting you to reasonably explain to everyone how this is the act of a "God of Love" as you claim, you jump the gun and say I am attacking you and the Bible.


I never did say that my claims are not attacks on Islam. Yes, I would like to see Islam disappear and be replaced by everyone knowing the loving, merciful God of the Bible who does not demand the sacrifice of daughters for "honor killings" or the sacrifice of sons for jihad, but who GAVE to the people He loves, His own blood poured out for the people He made so He could save us from our sins.

And this is how you have avoided addressing the points I have raised (and you claim I ignore your comments) - see how you avoid explaining how God killing 50,070 men for looking into an Ark makes him a "God of Love", according to your Bible.  You bring up another unrelated topic and divert our attention onto something else... Bravo!  Well done.

Muslim nations have a problem, though, when each man takes 4 wives. You have then 3/4 or 75% "surplus" men who can't get a wife. Those men are discarded via importing them to other nations en masse and/or sending them to suicide bomb or otherwise dispose of themselves for the cause of Allah.

First of all, you can't seem to comprehend your own native English language.  Your understanding of simple English has been very poor so far.  You read something and understand something else.  The Qur'anic verse in question says: "Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then marry only one..." [Qur'an 4:3].  And from that, you understand that every muslim has 4 wives.  There is only a tiny fraction of muslim men who have more than one wife, let alone 4 wives.  So all your mathematical calculations that follow is garbage.

Secondly, we have more than 1.5 billion muslims in the world today... if Islam teaches every muslim man to go "blow themselves up" in non-muslim countries, there would probably be just as few non-muslims today as there would be muslims, given that one suicide bomber is expected to blow up and kill more than one other person.  Make some sense please?

God's Wrath on Unrighteousness

Romans 1:18-32

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

It's amazing how you quote verses from the Bible and don't even understand what you are quoting.  I'll quote you some of the verses above with a little emphasis, so you can understand why you have those gays and lesbians;

22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,

23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves,

25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature.

27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.

You are worshipping Jesus, a man (as described in the Bible - weary, sleepy, hungry, thirsty, ...), instead of the Father in heaven.  For this cause, God made those men to go after men and those women to go after women.  You bring the Almighty God to the level of a man, you face the wrath of God.

32

Moderated General Discussion / Re: Testimonies from Ex-Muslims

« on: December 07, 2017, 12:13:39 PM »

When evidence presented is completely ignored and the same thing is repeated over and over again in spite of evidence shown, it needs to be considered whether ANY evidence of any kind can ever persuade such a person.

Where have I completed ignored the evidence you have given me?  Look at my posts and you will see that I have addressed most, if not all of your comments and refuted them wherever applicable.  If you chose to ignore my responses and then repost the same comments again, how can you blame me for that?  And by the way, I also mentioned that the evidence you have provided is not persuasive too as I have proven, no matter how many times you requote them!  Anyways, I will repost my responses to your quote in Reply # 31 below:

@BabyShark

It seems that you are suggesting that Jesus Christ Himself was a "false Christ".

That is certainly not what I am suggesting.  My point is that the Bible mentions that people, other than Jesus Christ, were able to perform miracles.  Jesus Christ himself prophesised that even false Christs and false prophets would be able to do miracles and wonders to deceive people.  The Bible also shows us how Moses was able to perform miracles. Therefore, your point that Jesus Christ is God because he was able to perform miracles does not stand.

Jesus' supernatural power is not coming from Satan. Satan is the enemy of God.

Jesus' supernatural power is coming from God, obviously.

So, is Jesus just a man? Or is Jesus both fully God and fully man like the Bible teaches?

Would God give supernatural power to a liar?

Why can't God give supernatural power to Jesus Christ as a prophet and messenger?  He certainly did so with Moses (as I mentioned earlier) and many others.

And I still cannot see where the Bible teaches that Jesus is FULLY God and FULLY man... this is your own interpretation.  You are yet to produce clear proof to justify your case.

If I were to worship anyone as my God, I would like to hear that God say "I am God" or "Worship me", not some ambiguous statements or other statements by inference.

The God in the Koran says in multiple instances:

(10) And when he came to it (the fire), he was called by name: "O Mûsa (Moses)! (11) "Verily! I am your Lord! So take off your shoes, you are in the sacred valley, Tuwa. (12) "And I have chosen you. So listen to that which will be revealed (to you). (13) "Verily! I am Allâh! Lâ ilâha illa Ana (none has the right to be worshipped but I), so worship Me, and perform As-Salât (Iqâmat-as-Salât) for My Remembrance. (14)  [Al-Qur'an 20:11-14]

And I (Allâh) created not the jinn and mankind except that they should worship Me (Alone). [Al-Qur'an 51:56]

John 5:18

18 Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.

This is the jews' interpretation of Jesus Christ's statements, not Jesus Christ admitting this himself.  The jews were always looking to catch him out because they did not like his preaching.  They tried to find fault with any statement, every statement he made and accused him of blasphemy because of their deliberate misunderstanding of his words.

Jesus uses the same words that God Himself used from the burning bush with Moses to describe Himself, saying that "before Abraham was, I AM." The Jews were so angry that He was calling Himself God that they picked up stones to stone Him to death, but Jesus just supernaturally walked right through them.

Regarding the statement "before Abraham was, I AM", Jesus Christ does not actually say "I AM GOD".  He said "I AM".  So, how WAS HE?  Was he with God?  I accept that.  Jesus was with God... but then so was I, so were you, so was Muhammad, so was everybody.  How?  In what form, shape or size?  No, not in form, shape or size, but in knowledge, i.e in the knowledge of God, Jesus was there before Abraham was physically in this earth.  He knew about Jesus long before Abraham chronologically walked this earth.  God is omniscient - He knows everything.  What we know as past, present and future, for God it is all one, like an open book.  God tells Jeremiah:

"I knew you before I formed you in your mother’s womb.  Before you were born I set you apart and appointed you as my prophet to the nations." [Jeremiah 1:5]

How can God know Jeremiah before he went into his mother's womb???  Was Jeremiah with God?  Yes, he was there in His knowledge.

There are 3 possiblities.

1. Jesus is lying.
2. Jesus is insane.
3. Jesus is telling the truth.

The possibility that Jesus is a good man or a good human prophet does not exist, because good men and good prophets don't go around lying to people and telling everyone they are God.

Why should Jesus be either a Liar, Lunatic or Lord?  Why can't he be a true messenger of God, a good man, a human prophet?  Why should it be either black or white?  What about the endless shades of grey in between... do you see them at all?

You are basing your assumption that Jesus is God because he "claimed" to be so, but then I see you have not been able to prove it so far.

He was born of a virgin, human woman by the Holy Spirit, so He did not inherit sinfulness like all the rest of us do from our parents. Isaiah prophesied about His birth 700 years earlier. Immanuel means "God with us" and describes Jesus as being God in the flesh, here with us.

Matthew 1:18-23

18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: After His mother Mary was betrothed to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit. 19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not wanting to make her a public example, was minded to put her away secretly. 20 But while he thought about these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. 21 And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.”

22 So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying: 23 “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,”

Let's have a look at this prophecy of Isaiah.  Verse 22 says "...and they shall call His name Immanuel".  Did anyone ever call Jesus "Immanuel" during his lifetime?  The Bible certainly does not say so.  Then this prophecy is clearly not fulfilled, thus everything else you said in connection with this becomes a moot point.

Jesus took on humanity, and in His humanity, was lower than God. He did not lose His God-ness, but He took on humanity. Why??

So He could keep the law perfectly (where we cannot) so that He could become the sacrifice for our sins, and die. He needed to be human so he could take our place of punishment.

So here, my Q to you is: Did Jesus die as a man or as God?

If it's the former, then one man cannot take on the sins of mankind - that's common sense.

Then, he must have died as God?  If that's the case, that's an even bigger problem for you to solve... first of all, God dying is blasphemy, period.  Secondly, who ruled the world for 3 days and 3 nights (before his "alleged" ascension onto heaven)?

So already we can clearly see that Islam, which teaches that Jesus was just a human prophet (it is impossible to be a good human prophet when you are going around calling yourself God if you are not) is not compatible with the Bible, which teaches that Jesus is the Son of God, true God, the second person of the triune God-head with the Father and the Holy Spirit.

The only place in the Bible where the trinity is defined per se is 1 John 5:7, where it reads:

"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." - [1 John 5:7 - King James Version]

This is the clearest statement on the trinity to be found in the Bible.  But judging from your quotations, I see you are using the "New American Standard Bible" and this verse is not there!  What happened? It has been taken out as a fabrication, as an interpolation, as an adulteration.

So, who took it out and why?  32 Christian scholars of the highest eminence, back by 50 cooperating Christian denominations took the verse out as a fabrication because it was not in the most ancient manuscripts.  It's an amazing situation where the most up to date bible, going back to the most ancient manuscripts does not contain the very foundation of your belief on the trinity, and YET, you still insist that the Bible teaches the trinity.

What's even more amazing is that the word "TRINITY" itself does not exist in the Bible.  The Christians have produced hundreds of different versions of the Bible but the word "TRINITY" is nowhere to be found in any of them!  The word "TRINITY" however is in the Koran, and this is what it reads:

"O people of the Book! commit no excesses in your religion: nor say of Allah aught but truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) an Messenger of Allah and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a Spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not "Trinity": desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is One Allah: glory be to him: (for Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belongs all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs." [Al Qur'an 4:171]


I think I've given you plenty to ponder upon.  I look forward to your reply.

... and I am still looking forward to your reply by the way... and I further refuted your claims in the immediately following the one I quoted above:

@BabyShark

I'm continuing from where I left off in my previous post.  I also have comments on another thread of yours, which I will post afterwards.

Satan twists and distorts the God-made, natural functions, and comes up with all kinds of perversion that go against God's perfect will. God says sex belongs between a man and woman who have committed to each other for life in marriage, thus creating the natural family that is the perfect place for children that come from the union to be loved, protected, and raised.

Satan has deceived people to think it's a good idea to have sex with anyone and anything, no matter the suffering that results from it. Broken families are everywhere. Following the allure of Satan's deception leads to brokenness, pain, and death.

The pleasure in sex was God's design. The pain of disease, the pain of being rejected by someone you love, the pain of having someone else raising your child, the pain of being cheated on, the pain of being unable to respond normally to your spouse after porn has ruined your mind and body, those are things Satan wants for people. He uses the bait of God-made sexual pleasure, but in ways and places where God doesn't allow it, and then Satan rejoices and laughs when families are destroyed and hearts are broken and bodies are riddled with disease and when unwanted children are torn apart in the womb, piece by piece.

I couldn't agree more to what you said.  If we were all to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ in the Bible and what God has ordained in the Koran, we would not be having so many broken families.  We have to deal problem at its source.

Jesus says in the Bible:

"27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: 28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart." [Matthew 5:27-28]

Jesus is teaching us here that we should lower our gaze to avoid temptation.  The same message is given in the Koran:

"Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that will make for greater purity for them; and Allah is acquainted with all that they do." [QUR'AN 24:30]

"And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and adornments except what must ordinarily appear thereof; that they should cover their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers,..." [QUR'AN 24:31]

Satan is behind Islam, and in some ways and in some places, there is some imitation of the real thing. But closer examination reveals that Satan is laughing at humans who swallow the nonsensical teachings of Islam.

I fail to see from that one Hadith which you quoted how "Satan is behind Islam".  Washing up one's nose 3 times to ward off Satan barely justifies your statement.

However, I can quote you Biblical verses that seem to be more of an inspiration from Satan than from God:

If two men are fighting and the wife of one of the men comes to save her husband's life, YOU SHOULD CUT OFF HER HAND.

" When men strive together one with another, and the wife of the one draweth near for to deliver her husband out of the hand of him that smiteth him, and putteth forth her hand, and taketh him by the secrets: Then thou shalt cut off her hand, thine eye shall not pity her." [Deuteronomy 25:11-12]

Is this the inspiration of God or that of Satan?  Is this sanity or lunacy?  Nay, this is lunacy of the highest order.  Much has been said about Islam degrading women, yet Christianity teaches you to cut off your wife's hand if she comes to your rescue...

God kills 50,070 men for looking into an Ark

"He struck down some of the men of Beth-shemesh because they had looked into the ark of the LORD. He struck down of all the people, 50,070 men, and the people mourned because the LORD had struck the people with a great slaughter." [1 Samuel 6:19]

This God of Love and Mercy that you are boasting about allows 50,070 men to look into an Ark and then slaughters all of them.  He could have killed the first one and let it be a lesson to the remaining 50,069 men... but no, this God is bloodthirsty.  And you say these are words inspired from God?  I cannot attribute such monstrosity to the All-Loving God.

33

Moderated General Discussion / Re: WOMEN'S RIGHTS and FEMINISM

« on: December 07, 2017, 10:29:24 AM »

I want you to recognize, @Ze_sAiNt, that my purpose is not to "make people look bad", but to help people. I actually have developed a lot more compassion for Muslim people by learning more about the religion and culture. I care about the people, including you.

I readily admit that my hope is that people who are persuaded by the teachings of Muhammad will recognize that there are problems in his teachings and life, including that he married and had sex with a child. Children should not be having sex and young girls' bodies can be seriously traumatized and damaged by forcible penetration by an adult. I would like truth and goodness to be prioritized over believing everything this man wrote or making his not very admirable life to be the "perfect example". I know that when you have been taught the same thing from childhood, it's really hard to think everything you learned is wrong. But it is my belief that it is a religion that is not based on truth and the values and teachings promoted are not good. I think children deserve to be loved and protected. I think women deserve to be loved and protected. I think boys and men deserve to be loved and protected.

I would like to see men and women to genuinely love and care for and value each other. I would like to see children loved. Even if you and I don't see things the same way, I want you to know I'm praying for you, as well as for Tora and Lightbringer, that you would come to know the love of Jesus personally. So many Muslims have been saved and come to know truth and love and freedom from an oppressive system of rules and laws that does not guarantee salvation for anyone, especially not for Muslim women, with whom Islam's hellfires are crowded.

I would ultimately like all men to come to a knowledge of the truth of Jesus Christ, and His love and forgiveness for all people. Jesus loves Muslims and His blood won forgiveness for every single one of them too, not only for me. We all have done wrong against God's holy laws.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1264729/Child-bride-13-dies-internal-injuries-days-arranged-marriage-Yemen.html

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2010/apr/25/middle-east-child-abuse-pederasty

Muhammad's sex life according to Islamic writings:

https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/quran/muhammads-sex-life.aspx

I already admitted that I knew quite little about Islam outside of the public perception and just minimal surface stuff that I'd learned up til that point in my life, when Tora brought it up on these forums. His bringing it up led me to go more and more into it.

There really are horrific abuses going on within Islam, and I think the abuses go further than what the Quran specifies (ie. disfiguring faces with acid and cutting off noses are more advanced than beating with a scourge) and there are horrific abuses going on outside of Islam. Certainly abuse is not limited to Islam. But when women are religiously and culturally categorized as less than men and as men's property, it paves the way for mistreatment of all kinds. Who is going to stand up for another man's property if he chooses to damage it? And yes, as the Bible is an accurate historical book, we see oppression of women in history in other cultures and peoples besides Islam as well.

I say it should be stopped wherever it's found by whomever it's done.

If I'm taking the verses of the Quran out of context, then so are the majority of Muslims who do act on them and act in violence against non-Muslims and women.

From my reading of it, it reads as though violence is to be used until there is no worship of anyone besides Allah and no resistance to subjugation. It is certainly forced on everyone. Even the Muslim men in the video say the same.

Even though Muslim men are committing abuses against Muslim women, I do also see Muslim men as victims of an oppressive religion and oppressive system.

I think men naturally want to be loved.

I do not think a woman is capable of loving a man who beats her and treats her terribly, like a thing, and I think he does these things because that's what he is raised to believe is appropriate behavior and pleasing to Allah.

I even wonder how Muslim men are able to enjoy sex with a woman or girl who is unable to feel pleasure because she has had her clitoris cut out. I don't know what joy or pleasure there is in having sex with someone who is forced to have sex with you whether she likes it or not and can't enjoy it anyways. I know that for most North .American men, the woman's desire and pleasure is enormously important and a source of his own pleasure.

I feel compassion for Muslim men who are deprived of love and who have to live with their own violent acts against the women they are designed to love and protect. It must be a horrible feeling deep inside.

It's a bad system. Cutting off a woman's genitals is completely barbaric and disgusting. I feel so much compassion for the girls and women who have this done to them, and have to live the rest of their life amputated from a big and pretty important part of being a human, their sexuality and experiencing sexual pleasure, all because men want to make sure they don't run off with some guy or have sex with anyone they shouldn't, but most of all because Allah (ie. Muhammad) prescribes it.

Female genital mutilation is a prescribed practice in Islam, and these traditions and practices follow Muslims wherever they go. So FGM, even though illegal in "Western" countries like USA and UK, is practiced there in Muslim communities. Many girls were flown out to have their genitals cut off, and then flown back in, but when authorities started clamping down on the borders and having girls removed from the UK, Musims started flying practitioners in to do multiple girls at once, in secret.

Circumcision is not an inherited custom as some people claim, rather it is prescribed in Islam and the scholars are unanimously agreed that it is prescribed. Not a single Muslim scholar – as far as we know – has said that circumcision is not prescribed.

Their evidence is to be found in the saheeh ahaadeeth of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), which prove that it is prescribed, for example:

1-

    The hadeeth narrated by al-Bukhaari (5889) and Muslim (257) from Abu Hurayrah (may Allaah be pleased with him), that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: "The fitrah is five things – or five things are part of the fitrah – circumcision, shaving the pubes, cutting the nails, plucking the armpit hairs, and trimming the moustache."

    This hadeeth includes circumcision of both males and females.

2-

    Muslim (349) narrated that ‘Aa’ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “When a man sits between the four parts (arms and legs of his wife) and the two circumcised parts meet, then ghusl is obligatory.”

    The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) mentioned the two circumcised parts, i.e., the circumcised part of the husband and the circumcised part of the wife, which indicates that a woman may be circumcised just like a man.

3-

    Abu Dawood (5271) narrated from Umm ‘Atiyyah al-Ansaariyyah that a woman used to do circumcisions in Madeenah and the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said to her: “Do not go to the extreme in cutting; that is better for the woman and more liked by the husband.” But the scholars differed concerning this hadeeth. Some of them classed it as da’eef (weak) and others classed it as saheeh. It was classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh Abi Dawood. The fact that circumcision for women is prescribed in Islam is confirmed by the ahaadeeth quoted above, not by this disputed hadeeth. But the scholars differed concerning the ruling, and there are three opinions:

1 –

    That it is obligatory for both males and females. This is the view of the Shaafa’is and Hanbalis, and is the view favoured by al-Qaadi Abu Bakr ibn al-‘Arabi among the Maalikis (may Allaah have mercy on them all).

    Al-Nawawi (may Allaah have mercy on him) said in al-Majmoo’ (1/367): "Circumcision is obligatory for both men and women in our view. This is the view of many of the salaf, as was narrated by al-Khattaabi. Among those who regarded it as obligatory is Ahmad… it is the correct view that is well known and was stated by al-Shaafa’i (may Allaah have mercy on him), and the majority stated definitively that it is obligatory for both men and women."

    See Fath al-Baari, 10/340; Kishshaaf al-Qinaa’, 1/80

2 –

    That circumcision is Sunnah for both males and females. This is the view of the Hanafis and Maalikis, and was narrated in one report from Ahmad. Ibn ‘Aabideen al-Hanafi (may Allaah have mercy on him) said in his Haashiyah (6/751): "In Kitaab al-Tahaarah of al-Siraaj al-Wahhaaj it says: Know that circumcision is Sunnah in our view – i.e., according to the Hanafis – for men and for women."

    See: Mawaahib al-Jaleel, 3/259

3 –

    That circumcision is obligatory for men and is good and mustahabb for women. This is the third view of Imam Ahmad, and it is the view of some Maalikis such as Sahnoon. This view was also favoured by al-Muwaffaq ibn Qudaamah in al-Mughni.

    See: al-Tamheed, 21/60; al-Mughni, 1/63

It says in Fataawa al-Lajnah al-Daa’imah (5/223):

    "Circumcision is one of the Sunnahs of the fitrah, and it is for both males and females, except that is it obligatory for males and Sunnah and good in the case of women."

Thus it is clear that the fuqaha’ of Islam are agreed that circumcision is prescribed for both males and females, and in fact the majority of them are of the view that it is obligatory for both. No one said that it is not prescribed or that it is makrooh or haraam.


(Taken from https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Qur%27an,_Hadith_and_Scholars:Female_Genital_Mutilation)

And yet, despite all this, more and more Americans are entering the fold of Islam, most of whom are women according to your statistics...

Don’t you care to find out why these American women are being ‘coerced’ into accepting Islam in such a free and Democratic nation as yours?  I’m sure you have a rational explanation for that too... why don’t you indulge us?

34

Moderated General Discussion / Re: WOMEN'S RIGHTS and FEMINISM

« on: December 07, 2017, 06:41:21 AM »

The Cain and Abel story (which is another version of the story from the Bible in Genesis, again showing that the author was copying other sources but putting his own spin on them) is about MEN.

You are now claiming that Muhammad copied passages from the Bible and rehashed them to make them appear as if they were of divine origin.  So, before you start making allegations against the authorship and authenticity of the Qur'an, it would be wise for you to have a look at what your own Christian scholars have to say about your Bible:

J. B. Phillips (an English Bible scholar and an Anglican clergyman in the Church of England in 1930) - in his book "The Gospels in Modern English 1952"

J. B. Phillips writes in the preface to the Gospel of Matthew:

"Early traditions ascribed this Gospel to the Apostle Matthew (i.e this is what people say); but scholars nowadays, almost all reject this view" - (Who?  Muslim scholars? Hindu scholars? Jewish scholars?  No - Christian scholars all reject the view that Matthew wrote Matthew) (parenthesis mine)

"The author whom we can conveniently call Matthew has plainly drawn on the mysterious 'Q' which may have been a collection of oral traditions. He has used Marks Gospel freely..."

The author whom we can conveniently call Matthew? Why conveniently? Because otherwise we'll have to say, "The first book of the New Testament, verse so and so." Now instead, we can say MATTHEW 5:5 or MATTHEW 7:27 and so on, instead of wasting your time and my time.

And what about this mysterious 'Q' he mentioned? 'Q' is the first initial of the German word 'Quella', which means 'sources' or 'copying from the outside', i.e, these are not 'inspired words'.

J. B. Phillips further comments, "He has used Marks Gospel freely..." From an academic point of view, "Matthew" is guilty of plagiarism. He was copying wholesale from Mark. If you don't believe the words of a qualified Christian scholar of the Bible, all you need do is simply read a few verses to understand, for example:

"And as Jesus passed forth thence, he (Jesus) saw a man called Matthew, sitting at the receipt of custom; and he (Jesus) said unto him (Matthew), follow me, and he (Matthew) arose and followed him (Jesus)." (parenthesis mine) [Matthew 9:9]

The 'he's' and 'him's' in the above verse clearly show that neither Jesus nor Matthew were the author of this narration. This verse is written in the third person. Nobody knows who wrote the book; certainly though, not Matthew.


Nevertheless, for the sake of argument, let's assume hypothetically that Muhammad copied these verses from the Bible.  It is clear that you are missing the point, that the Qur'an (in as much as those verses I quoted explain) teaches that whosoever kills anybody else deliberately, it is as if he has killed the whole of mankind.  So what do you disagree to here?

Do you fight against the violent Muslims who do oppress women? Are you willing to publicly renounce them and their actions, including promoting the legal prosecution and deportation of criminals?

If you believe that what they are doing is wrong, then prove it. Join those who stand for freedom of speech and human rights for both men and women in denouncing violence against women and innocent civilians wherever it may be found, no matter who is doing it.

Post educational videos publicly showing the two streams of Muslims, and that you and people like you do not believe in or support the actions of the violent ones. Call them out and call them to peaceful conduct and fair and kind treatment of women and girls.

First of all, my purpose in posting response to your threads has been to rectify the misconceptions about Islam that you are spreading and to show you that before you start pointing fingers at muslim and finding faults with the Qur'an, you should start reading and understanding your own Bible and see how you being led by the nose to believe that Jesus died for your sins when Jesus preached otherwise - at least, this was how the discussion started.  If you want to be a human rights activist and go on a quest to change the world for the better, be my guest.  Don't expect everyone to follow suit.  My objective is not to change people's perception on a large scale - there are other scholars and activists already doing that.  But you seem to be doing a pretty good job at defaming Islam and it doesn't look like you are about to stop until the whole world has seen "the real face of Islam", despite me refuting your allegations all along.

Secondly, you are trying to depict a picture of anti-feminism in Islam by posting pictures of women who have been beaten and disfigured "by muslims" "in Islamic nations" and claim this comes from the teachings of Mohammad.  My response to you is to account for the following despite all your claims:

- Why is Islam still the fastest growing religion in the world today?
- Why are there more women entering Islam than there are leaving Islam?
- Who is forcing women in America (especially after 9/11) to accept Islam?  (According to a 2010 study by the Association of Religion Data Archives, the number of Muslims in America increased by 67 percent in the decade following the Sept. 11 attacks, most of whom being women)
- Why do so many non-muslim historians and scholars speak so highly of Muhammad? Of course, you very conveniently chose to disregard those unbiased writings of 16 non-muslims about Muhammad which I quoted in your other thread.


How about you start reflecting on this?

35

Moderated General Discussion / Re: WOMEN'S RIGHTS and FEMINISM

« on: December 07, 2017, 05:07:24 AM »

Quran (5:33) – “The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement.”

The above verse includes me, because I am "waging war" against Allah and Muhammad

This is yet another example of someone ignorant singling out one verse from the Qur'an and quoting it out of its historical context and spreading misinformation and misguiding innocent people .  Here is the context that you failed to mention:

In order to understand this particular verse (Q 5:33), we have to go back to Prophet Muhammad’s life-time, with the historical sources available to us, and find out how it was interpreted by the Muslims then.

This verse was revealed in connection with a group of people who came to Madinah, they ate, rested and later in the day robbed and butchered an innocent shepherd to pieces. These criminals decapitated the shepherd(s), gouged their eyes out. After they fled, they also went on to rape women.

We have to keep in mind that the punishments was only carried out on these criminals as a result of the seriousness of what they did to innocent people. Such crimes committed even today would guarantee a criminal person(s) would be given the death penalty in a Democratic country like America, or life imprisonment without parole. As mentioned previously, the punishment meted out was in retaliation for their acts. The Prophet Muhammad punished them the same way they killed the shepherd.

As shown, making ‘mischief’ in the land, refers to robbery, murder and rape.  So, how does that verse include you in any way?  Unless, you attest to having done all those things...

But now I ask you:  how would you treat someone who would (hypothetically) rob, murder, and torture your own brother, by shoving spikes in his eye, slicing him in pieces and poking his eyes out, they also goes on to rape your sister???  Believe me, cutting off his hands and feet from opposite sides would be the most lenient of punishments you would want to inflict!

since my belief is that Muhammad was a man, a regular, sinful man

Once again, another false claim about Muhammad that can be historically verified.  What despises me the most about you is that you don't even bother reading or understanding the Islamic history or the Qur'an in its context and come up with your own conclusion.

Muhammad was known as a truthful and trustworthy person long before Islam.  He was known throughout Makkah as “Al-Sadiq Al-Amin“: the Truthful, Trustworthy one, a title he retained even by those who disbelieved in him after he declared his prophethood.  The Makkans agreed unanimously that Prophet Muhammad was a truthful person. Once before his conversion, a man called Yasir asked his son Ammar where he was going. Ammar replied that he was going to Muhammad. Being fully satisfied of his son’s safety while with Muhammad, he replied: “Muhammad is a trustworthy person. The Makkans recognize him so. If he claims prophethood, he must be telling the truth, for no one has ever heard him tell a lie.”

Even Muhammad’s enemies did not accuse him of lying after he proclaimed his prophethood. After the Treaty of Hudaibiyah, in the year 6 after the Hijrah, Prophet Muhammad sent letters to the rulers of neighboring countries. The Emperor of Byzantium received his letter in Syria at a time when a Makkan trade caravan was in the area of Damascus. This caravan was headed by Abu Sufyan, one of the leading enemies of Islam and Prophet Muhammad.

The Emperor summoned him to inquire about Prophet Muhammad, and the following conversation took place:

“What is the status of his family among you?”

“He belongs to a good (noble) family amongst us”

“Has anybody else amongst you ever claimed the same (that is, to be a prophet) before him?”

“No”

“Was anybody amongst his ancestors a king?”

“No”

“Do the nobles or the poor follow him?”

“It is the poor who follow him.”

“Are his followers increasing or decreasing (day by day)?”

“They are increasing”

“Does anybody amongst those who embrace his religion become displeased and renounce the religion afterwards?”

“No.”

“Have you ever accused him of telling lies before his claim (to be a prophet)?”

“No”

“Does he break his promises?”

“No. We have a truce with him but we do not know what he will do”

“Have you ever had a war with him?”

“Yes”

“What were the outcomes of these battles?”

“Sometimes he was victorious, and sometimes we were”

“What does he order you to do?”

“He tells us to worship Allah and Allah alone and not to worship anything along with Him, and to renounce all that our ancestors had said. He orders us to pray, to be chaste, and to keep good relations with our kith and kin.”

Struck by Abu Sufyan’s answers, at that time the bitterest enemy of Islam, the Emperor acknowledged Muhammad’s position and said:

If what you have said is true, he will very soon occupy this place underneath my feet, and I knew it (from the scriptures) that he was going to appear but I did not know that he would be from you, and if I could reach him definitely, I would go immediately to meet him and if I were with him, I would certainly wash his feet. (Al-Bukhari)


These are all historically verifiable evidence which you intentionally or ignorantly choose to discard.  If anyone had to choose between your judgment and verifiable facts, I wonder which one they will choose...

who invented Allah, and that Allah was ultimately Muhammad's sock puppet to make the people around him do what he wanted

That's the first time in my life that I've heard something so ridiculous.  You have now reached a new low in your accusations of Muhammad, so much so that you even claim Muhammad to have "invented" Allah.

Quran (4:95) – “Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward.”

Quran (2:191-193) – “And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief] is worse than killing…but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful.   And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone.  But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)”

Quran (2:216) – “Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not.”  Not only does this verse establish that violence can be virtuous, but it also contradicts the myth that fighting is intended only in self-defense, since the audience was obviously not under attack at the time.  From the Hadith, we know that this verse was narrated at a time that Muhammad was actually trying to motivate his people into raiding merchant caravans for loot.

Quran (4:74) – “Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward.”

Quran (4:89) – “They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks.”

Quran (8:39) – “And fight with them until there is no more fitna (disorder, unbelief) and religion should be only for Allah”

This is not the first time you are quoting verses from the Qur'an out of context.  You apply the 'cut and choose' approach with regards to specific verses so that it suits you. You have failed again and again and again to show that you know the context of the verses you are quoting.  Your knowledge of Islamic history is very very poor, to say the least.  I will explain the context of one of the verses you quoted as an example so people can see how you are trying to deceive them:

Quran 2:190 – 195

2:190 Fight in the way of God those who fight you but do not transgress. Indeed. God does not like transgressors.
2:191 And kill them wherever you find them and expel them from wherever they have expelled you, and fitnah [Persecution] is worse than killing. And do not fight them at al-Masjid al- Haram until they fight you there. But if they fight you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers.
2:192 And if they cease, then indeed, God is Forgiving and Merciful.
2:193 Fight them until there is no [more] fitnah [Persecution] and [until] worship is for God. But if they cease, then there is to be no aggression except against the oppressors.
2:194 [Fighting in] the sacred month is for [aggression committed in] the sacred month, and for [all] violations is legal retribution. So whoever has assaulted you, then assault him in the same way that he has assaulted you. And fear God and know that God is with those who fear Him.
2:195 And spend in the way of God and do not throw [yourselves] with your [own] hands into destruction [by refraining]. And do good; indeed, God loves the doers of good.


Now, read it in its context. You only quoted the part which suited you, and you purposely isolated previous verses and the ones after. When the passage is examined in context, it is clear that nowhere does it sanction the killing of innocent people. From verse 2:190 to 2:195, when read in context, Allah makes it evident to fight only those who fight them, fighting in self-defence.

Gibbon, the master historian says in his  book "Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire":

"In the state of nature, every one has a right to defend his person and possessions, and extend his hostilities to a reasonable amount of satisfaction and retaliation"

Since you are time and again quoting Qur'anic verses out of context even though I urged you not to do so, it can mean only 2 things:

1) You are intentionally trying to deceive people, which is devilish; or
2) You do not understand the word 'context', which means that your understanding of the English language as a native speaker is extremely poor.

I believe everyone will conclude it's the former.

Your verse from Jesus was actually taken completely out of context, and He was certainly not instructing His followers to kill anyone, and you do not see Christians going around en masse killing people in the name of Jesus. For someone who was criticizing taking things out of context, it's surprising that you went ahead and did just that so soon after.

Here is the framework of the verse you quoted from Luke 19. Jesus was telling a PARABLE.

Aha.  So you DO understand the word 'context' after all when it suits you.  I guess my earlier conclusion was correct.

But let's look at the verse in question as well as the context.  Jesus is telling his disciples of a parable as you rightly emphasized on with CAPS.  So what is a parable?  A parable is defined as "a short allegorical story designed to illustrate or teach some truth, religious principle, or moral lesson.".  So what is the lesson we learn from these verses preceding Luke 19:27 and the ones that follow it?  We learn that Jesus speaks of a King whose subjects hated him and didn't want him to be their King.  The whole passage of the Parable of the Ten Minas culminates in Jesus saying "...those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me.."  And what does the Bible tell us about Jesus in the passage that immediately follows the Parable of the Ten Minas?  The title of that passage is summarized as "Jesus Comes to Jerusalem as King". 

What 'religious principle' or 'moral lesson' are we to learn from this?  The lesson is that it is the prerogative of anyone who claims to be a king to slaughter anyone who refuses to accept him as the king.

36

Moderated General Discussion / Re: WOMEN'S RIGHTS and FEMINISM

« on: December 06, 2017, 09:47:55 AM »

There are so, so, so many stories and documentaries and testimonies of abuse of women within Islam that is allowed and sanctioned by Islam.

I've been asking for proof from the Qur'an that Islam condones the abuse of women but it seems like my requests have been falling on deaf ears.  Point out to any Qur'anic verse that preaches the abuse of women to prove your claim.

How can you say believing these women's stories is "absurd"?

Do not misquote me.  I never said these women's stories are absurd.  I said YOUR claims about "basic human rights that women are deprived of in Islamic nations" are absurd.  I made a general comment about you watching biased YouTube videos and forming a judgment thereupon.  There are hundreds of videos where non-muslims have testified about finding peace when they converted to Islam - why don't you post those?  That's because you have a preconceived notion that Islam is religion of oppression.

That's why I avoid posting videos from YouTube.  I would rather quote facts, for example, in another post where David Wood was attempting to depict Muhammad as a dictator and an oppressor, I responded by quoting verifiable historical information that was published by famous historians, most of which happen to be Christians.  If you choose to ignore these and prefer to watch selective videos from YouTube, I can only conclude that you are only acting out of prejudice.


I am again running out of time.  More on that afterwards...

37

Moderated General Discussion / Re: WOMEN'S RIGHTS and FEMINISM

« on: December 06, 2017, 08:31:42 AM »

The women who share their stories, you call biased. In what way are they biased? Did you even listen to them? Do you think they are lying? What evidence do you have to support that? Why are there so many vast numbers of people who tell very similar stories? I am completely convinced that these women are telling the truth. If you want to convince people otherwise, you will need evidence that they are lying or confused or I don't even know what you would say about these women. Why do you think they are telling a story if the story they are telling is anything other than the truth? What would motivate someone to say their religion is bad and oppressive if in fact their experience was wonderful? What would motivate a teenager to run away from home if her family was so loving and not trying to kill her for converting to Christianity, as in the case of Rifqa Bary (the first video)? I know that I never tried to run away from my loving parents or accuse them of abusing me...because they were loving parents and did not abuse me or try to kill me.

Yes, I did watch the short videos but not the longer ones (you cannot reasonably expect me to watch a 1 or 2-hour video!) and as much as I do feel sorry for any woman who has been tortured by her parents or by whoever else, or who has been beaten for not wearing the hijab, or who has been a victim of 'honor killing', these practices are completely against the teachings of Islam.  Whosoever claims to be a muslim and abuses women, whether physically or otherwise, is not a muslim.

A muslim by definition is someone who submits his will to the will of God.  And what is God's will?  What does God want from us?  Let's see what the Qur'an says:

"O mankind, indeed We have created you from male and female and made you peoples and tribes that you may know one another (not that you may despise one another). Indeed, the most noble of you in the sight of Allah is the most righteous of you. Indeed, Allah is Knowing and Acquainted." [Qur'an 49:13].

"I created the jinn and humankind only that they might worship Me." [Qur'an 51:56]

God tells Moses in the Qur'an:

"Indeed, I am Allah. There is no deity except Me, so worship Me and establish prayer for My remembrance." [Qur'an 20:14]


So we understand clearly from these verses that Allah has created man in order to establish prayer for His remembrance, for man to know one another and not to despise one another.  So what about killing others?  Is that what Islam teaches?  Let's look at this further in the Qur'an where the story of Abel and Caen is being related to teach us a lesson about what is right and what is wrong (I am quoting the context so you may better understand):

"But recite unto them with truth the tale of the two sons of Adam, how they offered each a sacrifice, and it was accepted from the one of them and it was not accepted from the other. (The one) said: I will surely kill thee. (The other) answered: Allah accepteth only from those who ward off (evil).

"Even if thou stretch out thy hand against me to kill me, I shall not stretch out my hand against thee to kill thee, lo! I fear Allah, the Lord of the Worlds.

"Lo! I would rather thou shouldst bear the punishment of the sin against me and thine own sin and become one of the owners of the fire. That is the reward of evil-doers.

"But (the other's) mind imposed on him the killing of his brother, so he slew him and became one of the losers.

"Then Allah sent a raven scratching up the ground, to show him how to hide his brother's naked corpse. He said: Woe unto me! Am I not able to be as this raven and so hide my brother's naked corpse? And he became repentant.

"For that cause We decreed for the Children of Israel that whosoever killeth a human being for other than manslaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind, and whoso saveth the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind. Our messengers came unto them of old with clear proofs (of Allah's Sovereignty), but afterwards lo! many of them became prodigals in the earth." [Qur'an 5:26-32]

In simple words, whosoever kills anybody else deliberately, it is as if he has killed the whole of mankind.

So my Q to you is: why would you then chose to quote verses of the Qur'an out of context to prove an ideology that has been fed to you through the media, social network or otherwise?  I bet you have never read the Qur'an from cover to cover or not even a few pages at a stretch, yet you have the audacity of making comments like "these are the teachings of Islam" and "the Qur'an teaches this and that"...

With regard to enforcing Islam upon others, this is what the Qur'an says:

"There is no compulsion in religion. Certainly, right has become clearly distinct from wrong. Whoever rejects the devil and believes in God has firmly taken hold of a strong handle that never breaks. God is All-hearing and knowing." [Qur'an 2:256]

People are free to believe what they want and are free to practice any religion they want.  However, the truth is clearly distinct from wrong - so people can clearly see what is right and what is wrong and are free to choose their own path.

The most absurd claim against Islam is that it was spread by the sword (i.e forced upon people).  To that, let's see what some famous Christian historians have to say:

De Lacy O’Leary In “Islam At The Crossroads’’ London, 1923

"History makes it clear however, that the legend of fanatical Muslims sweeping through the world and forcing Islam at the point of the sword upon conquered races is one of the most fantastically absurd myths that historians have ever repeated."


Thomas Carlyle In Heroes and Hero-Worship

"The sword; the sword indeed, but where will you get your sword! every new opinion, at its starting, is precisely in a minority of one. In one man’s head alone, there it dwells as yet. One man alone of the whole world believes it; there is one man against all men. That he take a sword, and try to propagate with that, will do little for him. You must first get your sword! on the whole, a thing will propagate itself as it can. We do not find, of the Christian religion either, that it always disdained the sword, when once it had got one. Charlemagne’s conversion of the saxons was not by preaching."

The biggest living proof that Islam did not spread by the sword is that today, you can boast that there are more than 15 million Christians living in Egypt, an Islamic nation.  If there was compulsion of any kind, there would not have been a single Christian left.

The Muslims ruled Spain for 736 years.  However, after eight centuries in Spain, the Muslims were totally eliminated from that country so that not even one man was left to give the Azan (the Muslim call to prayer). If the Muslims had used force, military or economic, there would not have been any Christian left in Spain to have kicked the Muslims out.


Time is against me.  I can't seem to catch up with all your posts.  I will post the rest of my comments later.

38

Moderated General Discussion / Re: WOMEN'S RIGHTS and FEMINISM

« on: December 05, 2017, 08:33:33 AM »

@BabyShark

I appreciate you taking the time to reply to my posts, some of them at least for the time being.  I reckon that my posts have been quite lengthy - just as much as yours have been at times given the new arguments that are being brought up by both of us.

That said, I cannot understand why you are getting so worked up and being overly sensitive when being called 'pathetic' or 'sick'.  Your Lord and Savior Jesus Christ uses worse adjectives in your Holy Bible when he addressed others, including his own disciples for crying out loud.  Here are a few examples:

"O you of little faith..." [Matthew 14:31]

"O ye of little faith..." [Matthew 6:30]

"O ye of little faith..." [Matthew 8:26]

"You blind fools..." [Matthew 23:17]

"You wicked and adulterous generation..." [Matthew 12:39]

"O generation of vipers..." [Matthew 12:34]

"Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers..." [Matthew 23:33]

"You hypocrite..." [Matthew 7:5]

"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!..." [Matthew 23:13-15, 23]


By God, if Jesus were to speak on this forum, he will be the first one to get banned for using such offensive connotations!


Read the Bible and realize that what I said is insipid as compared to the language Jesus uses.  Jesus Christ, in addressing his own mother(Mary) at the wedding at Cana, said to her:

"WOMAN, what have I to do with thee..." [John 2:4]

He again uses the word "woman" to address his mother in John 19:26.

Now tell me, is that how you address your own mother?  How inappropriate and disrespectful!  Isn't there such a word as "mother" or "mom" in Hebrew or in English?

Jesus uses the same word "Woman" when addressing a prostitute at the Mount of Olives:

"Jesus stood up and said to her, “WOMAN, where are they? Has no one condemned you?”" [John 8:10]

There are MANY actual testimonies from formerly Muslim women whose testimony all line up about the oppression women experience in Muslim majority nations. Here are a handful of them, again:

Quote from: BabyShark on November 11, 2017, 10:08:36 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58w884vRrl0# Ex-Muslim Woman Warns America, THEY'RE HERE TO KILL YOU! - YouTube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yUJZ6fErmw# Woman Leaves Islam, After READING the Quran for Herself - YouTube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7ojKL8A7qQ# Ex-Muslim Woman Told The Truth About Islam And What She's Telling Will Shock You - YouTube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WG_N3QltrWY# Sarah Haider: Ex-Muslim - YouTube




You also completely ignored ex-Muslim woman Ayaan Hirsi Ali's testimony above. I gather you didn't even watch or listen to anything she had to say.

Eyewitness testimony from Arab ex-Muslim women is 100% valid evidence.

Ever since you started those threads about Islam and Christianity, you have made a conscious effort in cherry picking the YouTube videos that talk against Islam, which first of all are just a minority's opinion and secondly, are by no means a representative sample of the whole muslim community.  As I said before, I am living in the UAE and I'm sure there are many non-muslims who have also been to UAE either as expatriates or as visitors.  They will be able to testify on the following (given that you probably think my opinion is biased):

"basic human rights that women are deprived of in Islamic nations."

Right to medical care - nonsense... it is the Law in UAE that everyone, irrespective of gender, has to be provided with medical insurance
Right to drive a car - please check the statistics of women drivers in the UAE before making such a claim
Right to choose who to marry - if any guardian prevents a woman under his care to marry someone righteous, this is totally against the teachings of the Islam.  You cannot single out a few cases and believe this is the common practice
Right to show your face in public without being killed - absurd... again, another baseless claim coming from a Christian who has probably never been to the Middle East.  I welcome you to come see for yourself.
Right to talk to male people - seriously??? this is becoming ridiculous now... and I'll stop commenting from this point onwards
Right to leave your home by yourself - refer to my last comment above
Right to not be raped - refer to my last comment above
Right to not be stoned for adultery after being raped - refer to my last comment above
Right to education - refer to my last comment above
Right to not be mutilated and have sexual pleasure organ removed - refer to my last comment above


Your claims are so absurd that it borders comical.

This is nothing to do with race, and people who keep insisting that any criticism of Islam is "racist" or "Islamophobic" are being intentionally hard-headed and irrational. Even these Arab women have been accused of being racist and Islamophobic for telling the truth about Islam. Reasonable objections to Islam include disapproval of violence toward non-Muslims or oppression toward women, as well as the less frequently mentioned violence against young boys and men who are sent to go blow themselves up for Allah so they can obtain 72 virgins in Muslim paradise (http://www.albatrus.org/english/religions/islam/72virgins_and_boys.htm).

This eradication of large numbers of males allows for the more powerful Muslims to have 4 wives each, since birth rates worldwide are generally close to 50/50.

You keep on attributing women oppression and violence to Islam but have so far failed to quote a single verse IN CONTEXT from the Qur'an about Islam preaching violence.  I am emphasizing on the words "IN CONTEXT" because you have so far only quoted verses without the text that comes before and after them.  To make sure you understand the word 'context', here is the definition: "the parts of something written or spoken that immediately precede and follow a word or passage and clarify its meaning".

Don't point to bad "Muslims"... as much as there are bad Muslims, there are equally bad Christians.  Point to a Qur'anic teaching and say this is wrong and that is wrong.

But now I will quote you a verse from the Bible (which I have already quoted 3 times already which you didn't comment on) where violence is being preached.  And by who?  Jesus Christ himself:

"But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring them hither, and slay them before me." [Luke 19:27]

Come on now, tell everyone how Jesus is preaching you to love your enemies?  By slaying them?

I've said this before and I'll say it again. God made all people and loves all people, and wants His people to love all people too, even enemies.

Can't you see?  Jesus is actually preaching Jihad in the Bible.  Read the verse in context and you will see that Jesus tells about the parable of a King whose subjects hated him and didn't want him to be their King.  So the solution to that everyone is to kill them all.  Simple.

Little wonder George Bernard Shaw said in his writings: "The Bible is the most dangerous book on earth, keep it under lock and key. Keep the Bible out of your children's reach."

The type of things you read in the Bible can poison your children's minds.  Keep it away from them!

The evidence is everywhere and there is so much of it that it's impossible to post even 1% of it. It's common knowledge that Islam oppresses women and that Muslim men treat women worse than dirt.

As I said before, it's time for you to come out of your cocoon and see the world for yourself.  Don't just watch biased YouTube videos and form a judgment thereon.  And again, quote me Qur'anic teachings in context showing the Islam oppresses women and treat women worse than dirt.  I can in fact tell you that the Bible degrades women.  Here are some biblical verses to prove my point:

Women must learn in silence and submission. [1 TIMOTHY 2:11]
Women must veil themselves or shave their heads. [1 CORINTHIANS 11:6]
Women must be subordinate. [1 CORINTHIANS 14:34]
Women were created for men but men were not created for women. [1 CORINTHIANS 11:6]
Women may not teach or have authority over men. [1 TIMOTHY 2:12]
The head of woman is man. [1 CORINTHIANS 11:3]
Women must be silent. [1 TIMOTHY 2:12]
The husband will rule over the wife. [GENESIS 3:16]
It is shameful for a woman to talk in church. [1 CORINTHIANS 14:35]

I reckon you accept the Bible in its entirety to be the word of God, so you, as a Christian should abide by these verses.  If you don't cover your head, you should have your head shaved!  Why don't you follow the teachings in your own Bible?  Double standards?

You have accused me with the empty label "Islamophobe". Would you care to explain what this term means?

Islamophobia means "irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against Islam or people who practice Islam".  This word means exactly what it means and describes you perfectly.


I'll stop here for now... I'll post the rest of my comments afterwards.

39

Moderated General Discussion / Re: WOMEN'S RIGHTS and FEMINISM

« on: December 04, 2017, 10:05:14 AM »

different from basic human rights that women are deprived of in Islamic nations.

Right to medical care
Right to drive a car
Right to choose who to marry
Right to show your face in public without being killed
Right to talk to male people
Right to leave your home by yourself
Right to not be raped
Right to not be stoned for adultery after being raped
Right to education
Right to not be mutilated and have sexual pleasure organ removed

What a load of crap.  I live in the United Arab Emirates, which is an Islamic nation, and I can tell you that whatever you wrote above is a lie.

Who is feeding you this information?  Where are your sources?  Why are you trying to deceive the readers with lies?  Is that what your religion teaches you - lying and deceiving others?

Get your facts right and stop spouting BS around on the forum just because you suffer from Islamophobia.  Be Christian enough to at least speak the truth.

40

Moderated General Discussion / Re: Testimonies from Ex-Muslims

« on: December 04, 2017, 04:31:04 AM »

I have a little bit of time now, and it seems prudent to start with the most urgent and pressing concern you have raised, namely, my health, to ensure that everyone is safe:

I can see clearly that you are sick and you need help.

Can you describe the symptoms of illness that you see, and recommend which kind of doctor I may visit who may accurately diagnose me and provide remedy?

I do concede that I have had a cold lately, with a sore throat and a cough. Is that what you're referring to? If it is, I can assure you that this sickness is not life-threatening, and cannot be passed along over the internet.

You are just pathetic.  You've had several hours to respond to my posts, yet all you could come up with was 'my health'!?  And yet, you still managed to initiate several new threads as a decoy instead of addressing the real problem which you got yourself into and which don't want to deal with...

But since you mentioned it, you should know that the type of sickness you have is spiritual, not physical.  You suffer from Islamophobia and everyone can see how you hallucinate that muslims are always trying to attack you or your religion.  You convince yourself to believe that Islam is a religion of hate and oppression and use every opportunity you have to launch attacks on Islam.  You keep on watching and posting videos of David Wood - who spreads lies about Muhammad and Islam with the most sarcastic smile on his face - and you have now become programmed to believe everything the guy says.  Jesus Christ warned you against those types of people when he said:

"Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravening wolves." [Matthew 7:15]

Incidentally, in the same chapter, Jesus also warns you about judging others - in as much as you said the Qur'an teaches violence, not seeing that the Bible itself contains numerous verses teaching violence - so, Jesus Christ is telling you:

"Do not judge, or you too will be judged.

"For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?

"How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye?

"You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye." [Matthew 7:1-5]


Isn't it about time you overcome your irrational fears, get out of your coccoon and start thinking for yourself?

41

Moderated General Discussion / Re: Testimonies from Ex-Muslims

« on: November 29, 2017, 12:33:06 PM »

@BabyShark

I found it strange how so many people on this forum, discord and in the game itself hate you so much (easycompany, Tora and lightbringer to name a few) and I was inclined towards giving you the benefit of the doubt.  But now I can see clearly that you are sick and you need help.

Stop being a hypocrite by making others believe you are keen in engaging in intellectual discussions when you clearly do not want to reply to my posts and you are claiming in your private message to me that I am attacking you and your Bible.  I won't post the details of our private conversation here but everyone can judge here how you are using double standards: you say Islam is a religion of hate and oppression...

I know Islam is a man-made concoction of hate and oppression

...but you do not construe that as an attack on Islam.  However, when I quote you biblical verses where it says God killed 50,070 men for looking into an Ark, expecting you to reasonably explain to everyone how this is the act of a "God of Love" as you claim, you jump the gun and say I am attacking you and the Bible.

So, let's try to reason.

If you read the many passages from the Quran that instruct Muslims to kill Jews, Christians, fake Muslims "hypocrites" (who are unwilling to be violent against non-Muslims), how can you say that Muslims who follow these orders are misunderstanding their religion? Is that what you are suggesting? That Muslims who carry out the Quran's instructions to dominate and kill others are confused and don't understand their religion? Or do you concede that the Quran teaches violence against non-Muslims, as can be read by any person who is literate and can read a translation of the Quran?

You have a sickness of quoting verses out of context, be it in the Bible or the Koran.  If by quoting the above verses from the Koran, you are trying to make people believe that Islam promotes violence, then what have you to say when Jesus says in the Bible:

"But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring them hither, and slay them before me." [Luke 19:27]

It is obvious to anyone reading this verse that Jesus is preaching violence... and for what?  For not accepting him as their ruler.  Explain that to others... or would you rather avoid the topic altogether like you've done before and keep on saying "Jesus died for our sins".

If one's religions offers hope, peace, life, comfort, and help to a troubled and broken world filled with suffering and pain and death, of course one would want to share it with the world!

My religion does offer hope and peace and life and comfort and help to a dying world.

Tell me, how is your religion (Christianity) offering solutions to the problems of the world today?  We have problems of alcoholism, gambling, homosexuality, etc. What solutions does your Bible offer?

Jesus said in the Bible:

"I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

He shall glorify me..." [John 16:12-14]

Who is this "he, the Spirit of Truth" that Jesus is referring to?  Any Christian, including YOU, will tell you it is the Holy Spirit.  Fine.  So tell me now, what guidance did the Holy Spirit bring you in the past 2,000 years that Jesus did not already tell you in so many words in the Bible?  How is the Holy Spirit guiding humanity in solving the problems I mentioned above?  YOU HAVEN'T GOT AN ANSWER TO THIS.

I am telling you now that this Spirit of Truth is Muhammad and I'll prove it to you.  Let's see what solution Muhammad has brought to mankind after Jesus left this world:

Alcoholism and Gambling

"O ye who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination,- of Satan's handwork: eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper." [Qur'an 5:90]

When this verse was revealed, barrels of wine were emptied in the city of Madina never to be refilled again.  What did it?  One verse from the Qur'an.  And today, muslims as a whole don't imbibe in alcohol.  Muslims also have the lowest rate of gambling in the world.  I'm not saying that no muslim gambles... we all have our black sheep in our societies but as a whole, I can say muslims don't gamble.

Homosexuality

"We also sent Lut. He said to his people: 'Will you commit lewdness such as no people in creation ever committed before you? For you come in lust to men in preference to women. No, you are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds' (Qur'an 7:80-81).

In another verse, Lut advised them: 'Of all the creatures in the world, will you approach males, and leave those whom Allah has created for you to be your mates? No, you are a people transgressing (all limits)!' (Qur'an 26:165-166).

Many western countries, including your own, have legalized homosexuality and gay marriages.  Need I say more?

Surplus women

We have a problem of surplus women in many western countries today.  Statistics tell us there are millions of women more than men in America alone.  If every man were to get married in America, there'll still be millions of women who will be left without a husband.  Add to that your gay population.  That's another few million women who can't get husbands.  Then, there's your prison population that is > 95% men.  Your problem is compounding... Islam offers you a solution:

"Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one..." [Qur'an 4:3]

There is a type of woman who does not mind sharing a husband and there is a type of man who does not mind taking on additional responsibility.  Islam offers you this as a solution.  It might not go easily down your throat but ask any woman who can't get a husband if she would mind sharing one with another woman... You don't mind having dozens of illegitimate partners but when it comes to polygamy, you say "over my dead body!".  Then, you will simmer in your soup and your problems will keep on compounding.

To silence open discussion on reality in the world, to silence free speech, is exactly what Muslims want. They do not want the Quran to be read by critical thinkers because it can not stand up to scrutiny and reason.

You can't be further away from the truth.  Muslims welcome people to come and read the Qur'an and analyze it critically and discuss it.  The Qur'an says:

"Say: "O People of the Book (Jews and Christians)! come to common terms as between us and you: That we worship none but Allah; that we associate no partners with him; that we erect not, from among ourselves, Lords and patrons other than Allah." If then they turn back, say ye: "Bear witness that we (at least) are Muslims (bowing to Allah's Will)." [Qur'an 3:64]

The Qur'an tells us to come to a common platform with the Jews and Christians to discuss matters of faith, which is exactly what I have been trying to do.   I invite you to read the Qur'an with an open heart and critically analyze it, and not just quote verses out of context...

42

Moderated General Discussion / Re: Last words of Jesus, Muhammad, and two Christian men, Stephen and Nabeel

« on: November 29, 2017, 02:37:33 AM »

@BabyShark

Since you are posting a video from David Wood, I can only assume you subscribe fully to everything he says in that video.  Therefore, I would like correct some of the things he said in it concerning Islam:

1. With regard to the grave of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) which is incorporated into his mosque, it is well known that the Mosque of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) was built before his death, and was not built over his grave. It is also well known that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) was not buried in the mosque, rather he was buried in his house which was separate from the mosque. At the time of al-Waleed ibn ‘Abd al-Malik he wrote to his governor in Madeenah, who was ‘Umar ibn ‘Abd al-‘Azeez, in 88 AH, ordering him to dismantle the Prophet’s Mosque and add to it the rooms of the wives of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). ‘Umar gathered the prominent people and fuqaha’, and read the letter of the caliph al-Waleed to them. That caused them distress, and they said: “Leave it as it is, that is better.” And it was narrated that Sa’eed ibn al-Musayyib denounced the incorporation of ‘Aa’ishah’s room into the mosque, as if he feared that the grave would be taken as a place of worship.

Umar wrote a letter to that effect to al-Waleed, and al-Waleed sent word to him ordering him to carry out his instructions, so ‘Umar had no other choice.  So you see that the grave of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) was not placed in the mosque, and the mosque was not built over it, so there are no grounds for people like David Wood to make others believe that muslims have "built the prophetic mosque over Muhammad's grave".

2. Why did Muhammad curse the Jews and the Christians at the time of his death?  Because they took the graves of their Prophets as places of worship - and idolatry is forbidden and condemned in Islam.  But did you know that the Jews are also cursed in the Bible?  And it is for the very same reason that Muhammad cursed the Jews and Christians, i.e because of idolatry.  Why doesn't David Wood tell us that?  The Levites addressed the people of Israel (i.e Jews) saying:

"Cursed is anyone who carves or casts an idol and secretly sets it up. These idols, the work of craftsmen, are detestable to the LORD." [Deuteronomy 27:15]


Now, let's talk about "The God of Love"

Our God is a God of love.

You are boasting about your so-called God of Love in Christianity and this is what your God of Love does in the Bible:

God kills 50,070 men for looking into an Ark

"He struck down some of the men of Beth-shemesh because they had looked into the ark of the LORD. He struck down of all the people, 50,070 men, and the people mourned because the LORD had struck the people with a great slaughter." [1 Samuel 6:19]

So, this God of Love allows 50,070 men to look into an Ark and then slaughters all of them.  He allows one... two... three... fifty... one thousand... but that's not enough... He is a saddistic God, so he allows more and more to look into that Ark until he kills 50,070 men.  So much for your "God of Love".

Christians love you enough to tell you the truth, in spite of how much they will be hated for doing it.

Christians want Muslims to come to know the truth, and the God of love!

And so do we, muslims!  We love our Christian brethren and that is why we are trying to rectify your wrong understanding of the concept of God.  The truth we are presenting to the Christians is plain and simple, but as Jesus said:

"Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand."  [Matthew 13:13]

The picture that David Wood is trying to paint of Muhammad is that of an oppressor and a dictator.  But if you want to know the truth about Muhammad, then let's hear what non-muslim (and mostly christian) scholars and historians have to say about Muhammad and Islam:

1. George Bernard Shaw - The Genuine Islam Vol.No.8, 1936

"If any religion had the chance of ruling over England, nay Europe within the next hundred years, it could be Islam."

“I believe if a man like him were to assume the dictatorship of the modern world he would succeed in solving its problems in a way that would bring much needed peace and happiness.
I have studied him - the man and in my opinion is far from being an anti–Christ. He must be called the Savior of Humanity.
I have prophesied about the faith of Mohammad that it would be acceptable the Europe of tomorrow as it is beginning to be acceptable to the Europe of today.”


2. Nepolean Bonaparte – Quoted in Christian Cherfils BONAPARTE ET ISLAM (PARIS  1914)

“I hope the time is not far off when I shall be able to unite all the wise and educated men of all the countries and establish a uniform regime based on the principles of Qur'an which alone are true and which alone can lead men to happiness.”


3. M.K.Gandhi, YOUNG INDIA, 1924

"...I became more than ever convinced that it was not the sword that won a place for Islam in those days in the scheme of life. It was the rigid simplicity, the utter self-effacement of the prophet, the scrupulous regard for his pledges, his intense devotion to his friends and followers, his intrepidity, his fearlessness, his absolute trust in God and his own mission. These, and not the sword carried everything before them and surmounted every trouble."


4. Lamartine - Histoire de la Turquie, Paris 1854, Vol II, pp. 276-77

"If greatness of purpose, smallness of means, and astounding results are the three criteria of human genius, who could dare to compare any great man in modern history with Muhammad? The most famous men created arms, laws and empires only. They founded, if anything at all, no more than material powers which often crumbled away before their eyes. This man moved not only armies, legislations, empires, peoples and dynasties, but millions of men in one-third of the then inhabited world; and more than that, he moved the altars, the gods, the religions, the ideas, the beliefs and souls... the forbearance in victory, his ambition, which was entirely devoted to one idea and in no manner striving for an empire; his endless prayers, his mystic conversations with God, his death and his triumph after death; all these attest not to an imposture but to a firm conviction which gave him the power to restore a dogma. This dogma was twofold, the unit of God and the immateriality of God; the former telling what God is, the latter telling what God is not; the one overthrowing false gods with the sword, the other starting an idea with words.

"Philosopher, orator, apostle, legislator, warrior, conqueror of ideas, restorer of rational dogmas, of a cult without images; the founder of twenty terrestrial empires and of one spiritual empire, that is Muhammad. As regards all standards by which human greatness may be measured, we may well ask, is there any man greater than he?"


5. Edward Gibbon and Simon Ocklay  - History of the Saracen Empire, London, 1870, p. 54

"It is not the propagation but the permanency of his religion that deserves our wonder, the same pure and perfect impression which he engraved at Mecca and Medina is preserved, after the revolutions of twelve centuries by the Indian, the African and the Turkish proselytes of the Koran...The Mahometans have uniformly withstood the temptation of reducing the object of their faith and devotion to a level with the senses and imagination of man. 'I believe in One God and Mahomet the Apostle of God', is the simple and invariable profession of Islam. The intellectual image of the Deity has never been degraded by any visible idol; the honors of the prophet have never transgressed the measure of human virtue, and his living precepts have restrained the gratitude of his disciples within the bounds of reason and religion."


6. Rev. Bosworth Smith, Mohammed and Mohammadanism, London 1874, p. 92

"He was Caesar and Pope in one; but he was Pope without Pope's pretensions, Caesar without the legions of Caesar: without a standing army, without a bodyguard, without a palace, without a fixed revenue; if ever any man had the right to say that he ruled by the right divine, it was Mohammed, for he had all the power without its instruments and without its supports."


7. Annie Besant, The Life and Teachings of Muhammad, Madras 1932, p. 4

"It is impossible for anyone who studies the life and character of the great Prophet of Arabia, who knows how he taught and how he lived, to feel anything but reverence for that mighty Prophet, one of the great messengers of the Supreme. And although in what I put to you I shall say many things which may be familiar to many, yet I myself feel whenever I re-read them, a new way of admiration, a new sense of reverence for that mighty Arabian teacher."


8. Montgomery Watt, Mohammad at Mecca, Oxford 1953, p. 52

"His readiness to undergo persecutions for his beliefs, the high moral character of the men who believed in him and looked up to him as leader, and the greatness of his ultimate achievement – all argue his fundamental integrity. To suppose Muhammad an impostor raises more problems than it solves. Moreover, none of the great figures of history is so poorly appreciated in the West as Muhammad."


9. James A. Michener, 'Islam: The Misunderstood Religion' in Reader's Digest (American Edition), May 1955, pp. 68-70

"Muhammad, the inspired man who founded Islam, was born about A.D. 570 into an Arabian tribe that worshipped idols. Orphaned at birth, he was always particularly solicitous of the poor and needy, the widow and the orphan, the slave and the downtrodden. At twenty he was already a successful businessman, and soon became director of camel caravans for a wealthy widow. When he reached twenty-five, his employer, recognizing his merit, proposed marriage. Even though she was fifteen years older, he married her, and as long as she lived, remained a devoted husband.

"Like almost every major prophet before him, Muhammad fought shy of serving as the transmitter of God's word, sensing his own inadequacy. But the angel commanded 'Read'. So far as we know, Muhammad was unable to read or write, but he began to dictate those inspired words which would soon revolutionize a large segment of the earth: "There is one God."

"In all things Muhammad was profoundly practical. When his beloved son Ibrahim died, an eclipse occurred, and rumors of God's personal condolence quickly arose. Whereupon Muhammad is said to have announced, 'An eclipse is a phenomenon of nature. It is foolish to attribute such things to the death or birth of a human-being.'"

"At Muhammad's own death an attempt was made to deify him, but the man who was to become his administrative successor killed the hysteria with one of the noblest speeches in religious history: 'If there are any among you who worshipped Muhammad, he is dead. But if it is God you worshipped, He lives forever.'"


10. Michael H. Hart, The 100: A Ranking of the Most Influential Persons in History, New York: Hart Publishing Company, Inc. 1978, p. 33

"My choice of Muhammad to lead the list of the world's most influential persons may surprise some readers and may be questioned by others, but he was the only man in history who was supremely successful on both the religious and secular level."

"...It is probable that the relative influence of Muhammad on Islam has been larger than the combined influence of Jesus Christ and St. Paul on Christianity. ...It is this unparalleled combination of secular and religious influence which I feel entitles Muhammad to be considered the most influential single figure in human history."


11. Sarojini Naidu, the famous Indian poetess says – S. Naidu, Ideals of Islam, Speeches and Writings, Madaras, 1918

“It was the first religion that preached and practiced democracy; for, in the mosque, when the call for prayer is sounded and worshippers are gathered together, the democracy of Islam is embodied five times a day when the peasant and king kneel side by side and proclaim: 'God Alone is Great'... “


12. Thomas Caryle – Heros and Heros Worship

“…The lies (Western slander) which well-meaning zeal has heaped round this man (Muhammed) are disgraceful to ourselves only…How one man single-handedly, could weld warring tribes and wandering Bedouins into a most powerful and civilized nation in less than two decades….A silent great soul, one of that who cannot but be earnest. He was to kindle the world; the world’s Maker had ordered so."


13. Stanley Lane-Poole – Table Talk of the Prophet

“He was the most faithful protector of those he protected, the sweetest and most agreeable in conversation. Those who saw him were suddenly filled with reverence; those who came near him loved him; they who described him would say, "I have never seen his like either before or after." He was of great taciturnity, but when he spoke it was with emphasis and deliberation, and no one could forget what he said...”


14. Dr. William Draper, "A History of the Intellectual Development of Europe"

"Four years after the death of Justinian, A.D. 569, was born in Mecca, in Arabia, the man who, of all men, has exercised the greatest influence upon the human race... To be the religious head of many empires, to guide the daily life of one-third of the human race, may perhaps justify the title of a Messenger of God."


15. Leo Tolstoy - The Rule of Prophet Mohammed

“Muhammad has always been standing higher than the Christianity. He does not consider god as a human being and never makes himself equal to God. Muslims worship nothing except God and Muhammad is his Messenger. There is no any mystery and secret in it.”


16. K. S. Ramakrishna Rao - 'Mohammed: The Prophet of Islam,' 1989

"Today after a lapse of fourteen centuries, the life and teachings of Muhammad have survived without the slightest loss, alteration or interpolation. They offer the same undying hope for treating mankind’s many ills, which they did when he was alive. This is not a claim of Muhammad’s followers but also the inescapable conclusion forced upon by a critical and unbiased history."

"The personality of Muhammad is most difficult to get the whole truth of it. Only a glimpse of him I can catch. What dramatic succession of picturesque scenes? There is Muhammad the Prophet; there is Muhammad the General; Muhammad the King; Muhammad the Warrior; Muhammad the Businessman; Muhammad the Preacher; Muhammad the Philosopher; Muhammad the Statesman; Muhammad the Orator; Muhammad the Reformer; Muhammad the Refuge of Orphans; Muhammad the Protector of Slaves; Muhammad the Emancipator of Women; Muhammad the Judge; Muhammad the Saint... In all these magnificent roles and in all these departments of human activities he is equally a hero."




@BabyShark

These historians and famous personalities whom I quoted above have no ulterior motive for making those statements about Muhammad, unlike David Wood who is following his own anti-Islamic propaganda.  So, the choice is yours... would you rather listen to David Wood or the testimonies of these unbiased authors?

43

Moderated General Discussion / Re: Testimonies from Ex-Muslims

« on: November 28, 2017, 05:28:44 AM »

@BabyShark

I have to applaud you.  You have beautifully avoided addressing my points, whilst at the same time, you have quoted numerous biblical verses that are irrelevant to the discussion and also brought back points which I have already proven to be unconvincing.

Let's have a look at what you wrote:

There is ample evidence Scripturally and historically for the following:

1. Jesus did many miracles during His ministry on earth

Agreed, but does that prove in any way that Jesus is God?  No - and I've proven to you from the Bible itself that others also performed miracles.  Does that make them gods too?

2. Jesus was crucified and died.

Again, another vain argument as I showed you clearly from the Bible that Jesus said to the jews that he will be LIKE Jonah (i.e ALIVE and not dead) for 3 days and 3 nights - you have expounded to great lengths on how this likeness was in comparison to the people of Nineveh but that's not what this verse is all about.  Jesus only referred to the MIRACLE of Jonah, starting from when he was thrown overboard in a raging sea (where he ought to die and didn't), then was swallowed by the whale (and still didn't die when he ought to) and then again inside the belly of the whale where he prayed to God (where we would expect anyone to die out of the heat and suffocation and Jonah still didn't)... This was a miracle three times over and the man was still ALIVE!!! And Jesus tells you he is like Jonah for 3 days and 3 nights.  I don't know if you understand English the same way I understand it.  It doesn't get any simpler than this.

3. Jesus rose from the dead.

It's plastered all over the entire Bible. His disciples witnessed His death and resurrection.

I'm sorry to say this but you don't know your own Bible.  None of Jesus's disciples were present to witness his "death and resurrection".  And I will give you yet another proof that Jesus did not die that abominable death on the cross and hence did not rise from the dead:

You see, when Jesus goes back to that upper room (where he had that last supper) after his alleged crucifixion, he goes in and he wishes his disciples in the Hebrew language "Shalom Aleichem", which is the same as the Islamic greeting "Salam Alaikum" which means "Peace be unto you" [Luke 24:36].

Instead of his disciples embracing and kissing him (as was the Jewish tradition in those days), they were terrified.  So why were they terrified?  Luke says: "But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit." [Luke 24:37].

Why would they suppose Jesus was a spirit when he didn't look like a spirit?  The answer is that the disciples of Jesus had heard from hearsay that the master was hanged on the cross; they had heard from hearsay that he had given up the ghost (i.e he had died); they had heard from hearsay that now he is dead and buried for three days.  All their knowledge was from hearsay because they were not eye witnesses to the happening because Mark tell us that at the most critical junction in the life of Jesus, all his disciples forsook him and fled.

"Then all his disciples deserted him and ran away." [Mark 14:50]

So, does ALL mean ALL to you?  It sure does.  On hearsay knowledge, if you heard about a man who's dead and buried for three days, you expect him to be stinking in his grave... and when you see such a person in front of you, naturally you'll be terrified.  But Jesus wants to assure them that he's not what they're thinking, so he says:

"Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have." [Luke 24:39]

It is an axiomatic truth that spirits have no flesh and bones, so why is Jesus going out of his way to prove to his disciples that he is NOT a spirit?  That's because they are thinking that he is one.  To assure them further that they were wrong in their thinking, Jesus tells them:

"And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?
And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
And he took it, and did eat before them." [Luke 24:41-43]

Jesus ate in front of his disciples to prove to them that he is ALIVE and not "dead and resurrected".  I honestly can't understand how you can read those verses in your own mother tongue and understand the exact opposite of what you're reading!

John 12:47-48

 47 And if anyone hears My words and does not believe, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world. 48 He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him—the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.

That passage in John 12 says that the word of Christ found in Scripture, when men reject it, will be the very words that judge them. So these words you are reading right now quoted from Scripture, the words of Jesus Christ, if you choose to reject them and Him, if you reject His love and grace and mercy with which He SAVED THE WORLD, these words that you rejected and refused to believe will be the words that judge you in the end, either when Jesus comes back to judge the world, or when you die and face judgement.

You claim to follow the words of Jesus Christ but in reality, you are only following Paul.  Let's have a look at which of Jesus's or Paul's teachings you follow:

1. Adhering to the laws and commandments

Jesus tells you to keep the laws and the commandments [Matthew 5:17-20]

Paul says that the Law will not bring any justification but a man will only be justified by faith in Christ Jesus. [Galatians 2:16]

You follow Paul.

2. How to attain salvation

Jesus links salvation to the keeping of the commandments. [Matthew 19:16-17]

According to Paul, just professing that Jesus is Lord and that he was raised from the dead will result in the person being saved [Romans 10:9]

You follow Paul.

Paul initiated the whole doctrine of atonement based on the concept of 'original sin' (ROMANS 5:12, 1 CORINTHIANS 15:21-22). Such a concept which states that every human being is born stained with the sin of Adam and Eve, is against the Justice of God.  Major Yeats Brown in his book Life of a Bengal Dancer comments on this absurd concept:

"No heathen tribe has conceived so grotesque an idea, involving as it does the assumption, that man was born with a hereditary stain upon him; and that this stain (for which he is not personably responsible) was to be atoned for; and that the Creator of all things had to sacrifice his only begotten son to neutralize this mysterious curse."

3. Eating the flesh of the swine

Jesus never ate the pig as he followed the Law, which states: "The pig is also unclean; although it has a divided hoof, it does not chew the cud. You are not to eat their meat or touch their carcasses." [Deuteronomy 14:8].

Paul allows everything to be eaten, regardless of what the Law says. [Corinthians 10:25]

You follow Paul.

4. Circumcision

Jesus was circumcised on the 8th day. [Luke 2:21]. And Jesus says, "he is not of me who does not take up his cross and follow me" as I quoted before.

Paul says circumcision is nothing and non-circumcision is nothing. [Corinthians 7:19]

What is good for your "Lord" should be good for you, but the bulk of Christians would rather follow Paul in not circumcising.

You follow Paul.



So, I'm confused.  Which words of Jesus are YOU following?  Can't you see, you're following Paul all the way.

We are so full of sin of every kind and are completely unable to save ourselves by our own efforts.

ONLY JESUS can save us.

It seems to me that you are reading the Bible with blinkers on and you want me and the rest of the world to read the Bible in the same way.  But looking at the verses of the Bible in an objective way, you will find that everyone is responsible for his own deeds, good or bad, and everyone has an opportunity to repent to God Almighty (not Jesus) in order to be saved.  Look into the book of Ezekiel Chapter 18 and you will find those verses, which are truly Islamic:

"The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. [Ezekiel 18:20]

But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die." [Ezekiel 18:21]

Our father Adam sinned by eating the forbidden fruit; we, his children, are not responsible for what he did.  And whatever his children today are doing today, God will not question Adam for that and hold him accountable.  Whatever good someone does, he will get his reward for it and whatever evil someone does, he will get his punishment for it.

So, how do you get salvation?  The answer is in verse 21 - if the evildoer repents from his sins and do that which is good, he shall live (spiritually that is) forever.

Matthew 5:20

 20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus has given us salvation and righteousness.

It is ONLY the righteousness of Jesus Christ who lived a holy and sinless life that is good enough to get into heaven with.

The righteousness of Jesus Christ is the righteousness that exceeds the righteousness of the Pharisees and scribes.

You are clearly quoting those verses out of context.  Here is the context.  Matthew Chapter 5 begins with Jesus addressing his disciples and teaching them.  Jesus is telling them THEY can only enter heaven if THEIR righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and the Pharisees, NOT BY BELIEVING IN HIS OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS!!!  Otherwise, he would have said: "Unless you believe that MY righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and the Pharisees..."


Therefore, to sum up, you are a strict follower of Paul, who has never met Jesus in his lifetime, self-proclaimed himself the 13th disciple of Jesus, invented a whole new religion that wasn't preached or taught by Jesus, and initiated the whole doctrine of atonement based on the concept of 'original sin' based on which he made you believe that Jesus died for your sins and the Law is now nailed to the cross.

In contrast to that, Jesus told you to keep the laws and commandments if you want to enter Heaven; he told you to take up the cross and to follow him in order to attain salvation.  If you insist on calling yourself a true Christian, my advice to you is to start following the teachings of Jesus, not those of Paul.


On a separate note, you have yet to respond (with proof from the Bible) to the points I have raised earlier:

1) Produce any verse where Jesus either says "I am God" or where he says "Worship me".

2) Produce any verse from the Bible where someone actually calls Jesus "Immanuel" during his lifetime in order to fulfill the prophecy in Matthew 1:23.

3) Who ruled the world for 3 days and 3 nights if Jesus died as a God (ignoring the fact that saying so is blasphemy)?

4) Produce any verse from the Bible where the word "trinity" is mentioned.

44

Moderated General Discussion / Re: Testimonies from Ex-Muslims

« on: November 23, 2017, 08:21:15 AM »

@BabyShark

Jesus said there is a prophecy that still needs to be fulfilled, namely, that He was numbered with the transgressors. He wanted to be arrested, so He could fulfill this prophecy and carry out the work He came to do of saving us, in His great love.

I would agree for the sake of argument that Jesus fulfilled this prophecy... just as there are hundreds of other prophecies in the Bible fulfilling the event of the "death and resurrection" of Jesus Christ.

But what about that ONE AND ONLY miracle (The Sign of Jonah) that Jesus Christ prophecised unto the Jews about his "death and resurrection"?  Was that one fulfilled?  Let's have a look at it in Matthew 12:38-40:

"38 One day some teachers of religious law and Pharisees came to Jesus and said, “Teacher, we want you to show us a miraculous sign to prove your authority.”

39 But Jesus replied, “Only an evil, adulterous generation would demand a miraculous sign; but the only sign I will give them is the sign of the prophet Jonah.

40 For as Jonah was in the belly of the great fish for three days and three nights, so will the Son of Man be in the heart of the earth for three days and three nights."

In reply to verse 38, Jesus could have taken this opportunity to mention all (or some at least) of the miracles he had performed before like healing those blind and the lepers, raising Lazarus up from the dead, drying up the fig tree from its very roots, and the list goes on.  But instead, Jesus is putting all his eggs in one basket.  The ONLY sign he was willing to give was that of the sign of Jonah.  You don't need to even open the book of Jonah to know what the sign of Jonah was... everybody knows the story of Jonah and the whale and how Jonah managed to stay alive over and over and over until he was thrown onto the shore by the whale.

So, let's compare now.  How was Jesus for 3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth?  The bulk of Christians says DEAD.  And how was Jonah for 3 days and 3 nights in the belly of the whale?  You say ALIVE.

Jesus = DEAD for 3 days and 3 nights
Jonah = ALIVE for 3 days and 3 nights

In English, is that LIKE Jonah or UNLIKE Jonah?  You have to accept it is UNLIKE Jonah.  So either Jesus was lying by inferring he was dead during that time or YOU MISUNDERSTOOD the whole thing and Jesus was alive during those 3 days and 3 nights - and if Jesus was alive, that means the "death and resurrection" never happened.  And as Paul says:

"And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain." [Corinthians 15:14]

That means if no "death and resurrection", then no Christianity.

45

Moderated General Discussion / Re: Testimonies from Ex-Muslims

« on: November 21, 2017, 08:12:58 AM »

@BabyShark

I've read through your comments on this thread and here are some of my thoughts:

Jesus stepped down from supreme heavenly power, glory, and majesty to become a human baby, so that He could take the punishment I deserve for my sinful thoughts, words, and actions.

His plan was to die!

OK, let's have a look at how Jesus prepared for his death on the eve of his "alleged" crucifixion. Jesus takes his disciples to the upper room where they're having the last supper together.  At the supper table, Jesus tells his disciples:

"When I sent you out on your mission of preaching and healing without purse, bags or sandals, did you lack anything? They replied and said: "Nothing" [Luke 22:35]

Then He (Jesus) said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one." [Luke 22:36]

They said, "Lord, look, here are two swords." And He said to them, "It is enough." [Luke 22:38]

What do the disciples now need a sword for when they didn't need it at any time before?  To chop apples and bananas??  No, it's to chop off people's head, just as Jesus said in Luke 19:27:

"But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring them hither, and slay them before me." [Luke 19:27]

So now, Jesus tells his disciples to arm themselves and they do so.  Then, he takes them to the garden of Gethsemane, in the middle of the night.  What for?  To pray?  Couldn't he have prayed in that upper room?  Couldn't he have gone to the temple of Jerusalem, a stone's throw from where he was?

No, there is a strategy involved here.  Jesus was preparing for his own protection and here is how I prove it to you:

When he reaches the garden of Gethsemane, he puts 8 men at the gate and tells them to sit there while he takes Peter (The "Rock") and the two sons of Zebedee (the "Sons of Thunder") further into the garden and makes an inner line of defense and tells them "sit ye here and watch with me" [Matthew 26:38]. Watch what?  Jesus meant "KEEP GUARD".

And going a little farther he fell on his face and prayed, saying, "My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as you will." [Matthew 26:39], in other words he was telling God "Oh my Lord, I want you to save me but in the end, I put myself at your disposal".

Is that how you would prepare for a willing sacrifice?  With 8 at the gate and 3 others keeping watch behind him...?

The Christians say there is a contract between the Father and the Son, that in the year 4000 after Adam, God Almighty will send His son into the world to die for the sins of mankind... yet, it seems like Jesus knew nothing about it seeing the way he was acting in the garden of Gethsemane.

Jesus is the only way to heaven. Trust in Him! Pick up your Bible today, right now, and learn more about Him while there is still time to repent.

Yes, let's learn more about Jesus in the Bible.  Let's see what Jesus says in the Bible and see how many of his teachings you and the bulk of Christians follow:

"For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven." [Matthew 5:20]

In other words, there is no heaven for you Christians unless you are better than the Jews; and how do you expect to be better than the Jews but not keeping the laws and the commandments in a more strict manner than them?

"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.  For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." [Matthew 5:17-19]

Once again, Jesus is telling you to keep the laws and the commandments.  But why won't you?  Oh right, because your sins are nailed to the cross!  And who told you that?  Jesus?  No, PAUL told you that in his teachings.  You are contradicting Jesus because he says:

"The disciple is not greater than the master..." [Matthew 10:24].  Who is your master?  You say Jesus, but then how come you choose to follow Paul's teachings instead of Jesus'?!  You should call yourselves Paulians, not Christians because Paul is the real founder of Christianity, not Jesus.  If you follow Jesus and listen to him, you can't help being a muslim.  You will be a muslim through and through.  But you don't want to listen to Jesus because Paul offers you easy salvation.

And Jesus says "Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me." [Matthew 10:38]

So take up your cross and follow Jesus.  That is your way to salvation.