Warcraft II Forum

Warcraft II => Server.War2.ru => Topic started by: ~oE~ on January 08, 2018, 03:17:32 PM

Title: Question for U8t3ior2d2c3polastjedi....
Post by: ~oE~ on January 08, 2018, 03:17:32 PM
How come you never go level 7 shields? Seems like it should hurt you in the long run but it doesnt (against other opponents that are lusted and level 7). Is it just a micro thing where you are regrouping during battle? I think the only time it seems to really disadvantage you was in games versus Viruz where he was capable of micro'ing/regrouping like you?
Title: Re: Question for U8t3ior2d2c3polastjedi....
Post by: Szwagier on January 08, 2018, 04:35:55 PM
cause lust is imba, and i didnt lost cause it
i lost cause i wanted play long game where he is best, if u watched all games u should see one game where we were nib and i won in 5 mins?and lucky spots, whenever i got 6/8 he had 12/2 ^_^
http://occult.war2.ru/strategy/mechanics/bloodlust.php (http://occult.war2.ru/strategy/mechanics/bloodlust.php)

Level 5 ogre with bloodlust attacks a level 5 knight: ((24 - 8) + 8 = 24. The ogre will do 12-24 damage per hit. That's 3.0 times as strong as the ogre without bloodlust.
12-24 "random dmg u can be lucky, your ogre will hit 24, u can be unlucky your ogre will git 12 ^_^
so
12-24
14-26
still random dmg will win
its not like in sc where marine  got "5dmg" and he will hit 5 dmg vs 0 armor

lvl 5 will be usefull in 12v2
Title: Re: Question for U8t3ior2d2c3polastjedi....
Post by: Antti_Kiviniemi on January 08, 2018, 11:17:21 PM
its 12-24 vs 13-26, not 12-24 vs 14-26. ogres with lvl 2 shields are 8.3% stronger in this case (19.5 avg dmg divided by 18 avg dmg equals 1.0833)
Title: Re: Question for U8t3ior2d2c3polastjedi....
Post by: Szwagier on January 09, 2018, 12:38:16 PM
This are still numbers, random dmg lvl 5 ogre Still can win vs 7 ogre

Many Times in 9v9 ogre is changing enemy ogre to hit and he is missing one attack
Title: Re: Question for U8t3ior2d2c3polastjedi....
Post by: ~oE~ on January 09, 2018, 12:46:57 PM
So are you saying that random damage outweighs the benefit of having max shield?? Because all else equal, a level 7 lusted ogre should defeat a lusted level 6 ogre right? 
Title: Re: Question for U8t3ior2d2c3polastjedi....
Post by: Szwagier on January 09, 2018, 01:31:54 PM
Yes, many Times i won/lost,  i can do test latem if some1 want
Title: Re: Question for U8t3ior2d2c3polastjedi....
Post by: ~oE~ on January 09, 2018, 02:58:08 PM
Interesting..900/500 (especially the wood) is a lot to give up mid-game too so its interesting that it may not even be an advantage. Good to know.
Title: Re: Question for U8t3ior2d2c3polastjedi....
Post by: Antti_Kiviniemi on January 09, 2018, 03:57:33 PM
Interesting..900/500 (especially the wood) is a lot to give up mid-game too so its interesting that it may not even be an advantage. Good to know.

if you think about 9 ogres vs 9 ogres battle, the expected value of your losses after one 9 vs 9 ogres oggrebattle, assuming you don't have lvl 2 shields and your opponent does, is:

gold:
9x800 - (9x800)x0,923
<=> 7200-7200x0.923
<=> 7200-6645,6 = 554.4

wood:
9x100 - 9x100x0.923
<=> 900-900x0.923
<=> 900-830,7 = 69.3

So the expected value of your expected losses after each 9 vs 9 ogre battle is apx 550 gold and 70 wood.
Title: Re: Question for U8t3ior2d2c3polastjedi....
Post by: Antti_Kiviniemi on January 09, 2018, 04:25:17 PM
let us see after how many battles of 9 ogres vs 9 ogres will the shield upgrade have paid itself off.

first let's convert wood into gold. I do not have the numbers of wood and gold gathering speeds (at fortress phase of the game) therefore I cannot give exact factor - I used to have these numbers but I have lost my excel files. Let us go with an educated guess of factor of 2.2.

(900 + 500x2.2) / (550 + 70x2.2)
<=> (900 + 1100) / (550+154)
<=> 2000/704 = 2,840909090909091

So after 3 ogre battles of 9 vs 9 ogres your lvl 2 shield upgrade will have paid itself off.

Of course this is a very complicated topic and you need to balance your decisions in relation to every circumstance regarding your individual unique game (e.g.1: does your opponent have lvl 7 ogres or lvl 6 ogres, or e.g.2: can you yourself afford to get a temple of the damned plus 1-3 death knights plus the upgrades death and decay & haste).
Title: Re: Question for U8t3ior2d2c3polastjedi....
Post by: I hate naggers on January 09, 2018, 06:18:47 PM
sepi gets it. apparently you gotta be IT to get it
Title: Re: Question for U8t3ior2d2c3polastjedi....
Post by: Szwagier on January 10, 2018, 12:12:24 AM
You forgot about place where ogre fight
Title: Re: Question for U8t3ior2d2c3polastjedi....
Post by: easycompany on January 10, 2018, 12:18:58 AM
you canna shove it right up uo ass
Title: Re: Question for U8t3ior2d2c3polastjedi....
Post by: easycompany on January 10, 2018, 12:20:08 AM
you dumb sob u cant even play what isit warcraft1
Title: Re: Question for U8t3ior2d2c3polastjedi....
Post by: easycompany on January 10, 2018, 12:21:32 AM
i really forgot i am warcraft1
Title: Re: Question for U8t3ior2d2c3polastjedi....
Post by: easycompany on January 10, 2018, 12:22:42 AM
you want to say your someone....from god
Title: Re: Question for U8t3ior2d2c3polastjedi....
Post by: easycompany on January 10, 2018, 12:23:54 AM
kemco
Title: Re: Question for U8t3ior2d2c3polastjedi....
Post by: Ywfn on January 11, 2018, 12:45:48 PM
let us see after how many battles of 9 ogres vs 9 ogres will the shield upgrade have paid itself off.

first let's convert wood into gold. I do not have the numbers of wood and gold gathering speeds (at fortress phase of the game) therefore I cannot give exact factor - I used to have these numbers but I have lost my excel files. Let us go with an educated guess of factor of 2.2.

(900 + 500x2.2) / (550 + 70x2.2)
<=> (900 + 1100) / (550+154)
<=> 2000/704 = 2,840909090909091

So after 3 ogre battles of 9 vs 9 ogres your lvl 2 shield upgrade will have paid itself off.

Of course this is a very complicated topic and you need to balance your decisions in relation to every circumstance regarding your individual unique game (e.g.1: does your opponent have lvl 7 ogres or lvl 6 ogres, or e.g.2: can you yourself afford to get a temple of the damned plus 1-3 death knights plus the upgrades death and decay & haste).

Hey Sepi, I didn't look closely at your math to try to figure out your formula, but does it take in to account that every point of damage dealt above lethal damage is irreverent?  I'm thinking that might be a key factor in how it might play out.  The hp of an ogre and the average damage dealt might just work out to ogres generally killing each other with the same number of hits, and level 7 ogres just generally "overkill" level 6 ogres by a bit more.

If not, maybe it would be interesting to look at this as how many hits it takes a level 6 ogre to kill a level 7 ogre, vs a level 7 ogre to kill a level 6 ogre, figure out the distribution, and compute the gains/losses that way.
Title: Re: Question for U8t3ior2d2c3polastjedi....
Post by: eyyy im walkin here on January 11, 2018, 01:04:30 PM
if you have one or two ogres die first then you have less ogres dealing damage than they do and the imbalance accelerates and your men get swamped and your units die and you lose the game.
Title: Re: Question for U8t3ior2d2c3polastjedi....
Post by: Szwagier on January 11, 2018, 03:34:17 PM
let us see after how many battles of 9 ogres vs 9 ogres will the shield upgrade have paid itself off.

first let's convert wood into gold. I do not have the numbers of wood and gold gathering speeds (at fortress phase of the game) therefore I cannot give exact factor - I used to have these numbers but I have lost my excel files. Let us go with an educated guess of factor of 2.2.

(900 + 500x2.2) / (550 + 70x2.2)
<=> (900 + 1100) / (550+154)
<=> 2000/704 = 2,840909090909091

So after 3 ogre battles of 9 vs 9 ogres your lvl 2 shield upgrade will have paid itself off.

Of course this is a very complicated topic and you need to balance your decisions in relation to every circumstance regarding your individual unique game (e.g.1: does your opponent have lvl 7 ogres or lvl 6 ogres, or e.g.2: can you yourself afford to get a temple of the damned plus 1-3 death knights plus the upgrades death and decay & haste).

Hey Sepi, I didn't look closely at your math to try to figure out your formula, but does it take in to account that every point of damage dealt above lethal damage is irreverent?  I'm thinking that might be a key factor in how it might play out.  The hp of an ogre and the average damage dealt might just work out to ogres generally killing each other with the same number of hits, and level 7 ogres just generally "overkill" level 6 ogres by a bit more.

If not, maybe it would be interesting to look at this as how many hits it takes a level 6 ogre to kill a level 7 ogre, vs a level 7 ogre to kill a level 6 ogre, figure out the distribution, and compute the gains/losses that way.

there are a lot of other factors,  lvl attack, position, how many ogres will change target in fight(if ogre is changing his target, he will watch his "new" opponent and he is miss one hit, while ogre which didnt change opponent will hit him)


Title: Re: Question for U8t3ior2d2c3polastjedi....
Post by: Antti_Kiviniemi on January 12, 2018, 01:55:18 AM
Hey Sepi, I didn't look closely at your math to try to figure out your formula, but does it take in to account that every point of damage dealt above lethal damage is irreverent?  I'm thinking that might be a key factor in how it might play out.  The hp of an ogre and the average damage dealt might just work out to ogres generally killing each other with the same number of hits, and level 7 ogres just generally "overkill" level 6 ogres by a bit more.

If not, maybe it would be interesting to look at this as how many hits it takes a level 6 ogre to kill a level 7 ogre, vs a level 7 ogre to kill a level 6 ogre, figure out the distribution, and compute the gains/losses that way.

Great question. It took me a while to figure out a formula for this but I was able to abstract a method for brute forcing the "overkill" damage points for both situations 6vs7 & 7vs6. I'm very excited for this computation, I'll return with my math later (there will be a wall of text, but its nothing complicated).
Title: Re: Question for U8t3ior2d2c3polastjedi....
Post by: Lambchops on January 12, 2018, 04:36:01 AM
/me looks at his feet, whistles, then looks out the window for a while, says nothing, and wanders away....  :blank:
Title: Re: Question for U8t3ior2d2c3polastjedi....
Post by: Antti_Kiviniemi on January 12, 2018, 08:38:11 AM
i was going to show all the combinations of damage an ogre does but it seems that there will be something like 250 combinations in total and i do not feel like attaining such a deep understanding of this topic to start generating algorithmic solutions for this.

To answer your original question whether or not my numbers take into account the extra damage being irrelevant, the answer is: yes it does. now go find out yourself how it does it.
Title: Re: Question for U8t3ior2d2c3polastjedi....
Post by: tk[as] on January 12, 2018, 06:34:48 PM
The easy solution to all of this is to use double click lust hacks
Title: Re: Question for U8t3ior2d2c3polastjedi....
Post by: tk[as] on January 12, 2018, 06:35:13 PM
Win 99% of ogre wars
Title: Re: Question for U8t3ior2d2c3polastjedi....
Post by: eyyy im walkin here on January 12, 2018, 06:50:35 PM
Lol Tk "double click lust hacks" will save you like half a second total and your ogres will probably still die to lusties before you even notice there's a battle. 
Title: Re: Question for U8t3ior2d2c3polastjedi....
Post by: XuRnT on January 12, 2018, 06:54:10 PM
I think I usually upgrade 2nd shield before 2nd sword 😞
Title: Re: Question for U8t3ior2d2c3polastjedi....
Post by: Lambchops on January 12, 2018, 10:53:39 PM
/me enjoys the view despite having to crane his neck to see past the enormous elephant in the room