Warcraft II Forum
Warcraft II => Server.War2.ru => Topic started by: ~oE~ on January 08, 2018, 03:17:32 PM

How come you never go level 7 shields? Seems like it should hurt you in the long run but it doesnt (against other opponents that are lusted and level 7). Is it just a micro thing where you are regrouping during battle? I think the only time it seems to really disadvantage you was in games versus Viruz where he was capable of micro'ing/regrouping like you?

cause lust is imba, and i didnt lost cause it
i lost cause i wanted play long game where he is best, if u watched all games u should see one game where we were nib and i won in 5 mins?and lucky spots, whenever i got 6/8 he had 12/2 ^_^
http://occult.war2.ru/strategy/mechanics/bloodlust.php (http://occult.war2.ru/strategy/mechanics/bloodlust.php)
Level 5 ogre with bloodlust attacks a level 5 knight: ((24  8) + 8 = 24. The ogre will do 1224 damage per hit. That's 3.0 times as strong as the ogre without bloodlust.
1224 "random dmg u can be lucky, your ogre will hit 24, u can be unlucky your ogre will git 12 ^_^
so
1224
1426
still random dmg will win
its not like in sc where marine got "5dmg" and he will hit 5 dmg vs 0 armor
lvl 5 will be usefull in 12v2

its 1224 vs 1326, not 1224 vs 1426. ogres with lvl 2 shields are 8.3% stronger in this case (19.5 avg dmg divided by 18 avg dmg equals 1.0833)

This are still numbers, random dmg lvl 5 ogre Still can win vs 7 ogre
Many Times in 9v9 ogre is changing enemy ogre to hit and he is missing one attack

So are you saying that random damage outweighs the benefit of having max shield?? Because all else equal, a level 7 lusted ogre should defeat a lusted level 6 ogre right?

Yes, many Times i won/lost, i can do test latem if some1 want

Interesting..900/500 (especially the wood) is a lot to give up midgame too so its interesting that it may not even be an advantage. Good to know.

Interesting..900/500 (especially the wood) is a lot to give up midgame too so its interesting that it may not even be an advantage. Good to know.
if you think about 9 ogres vs 9 ogres battle, the expected value of your losses after one 9 vs 9 ogres oggrebattle, assuming you don't have lvl 2 shields and your opponent does, is:
gold:
9x800  (9x800)x0,923
<=> 72007200x0.923
<=> 72006645,6 = 554.4
wood:
9x100  9x100x0.923
<=> 900900x0.923
<=> 900830,7 = 69.3
So the expected value of your expected losses after each 9 vs 9 ogre battle is apx 550 gold and 70 wood.

let us see after how many battles of 9 ogres vs 9 ogres will the shield upgrade have paid itself off.
first let's convert wood into gold. I do not have the numbers of wood and gold gathering speeds (at fortress phase of the game) therefore I cannot give exact factor  I used to have these numbers but I have lost my excel files. Let us go with an educated guess of factor of 2.2.
(900 + 500x2.2) / (550 + 70x2.2)
<=> (900 + 1100) / (550+154)
<=> 2000/704 = 2,840909090909091
So after 3 ogre battles of 9 vs 9 ogres your lvl 2 shield upgrade will have paid itself off.
Of course this is a very complicated topic and you need to balance your decisions in relation to every circumstance regarding your individual unique game (e.g.1: does your opponent have lvl 7 ogres or lvl 6 ogres, or e.g.2: can you yourself afford to get a temple of the damned plus 13 death knights plus the upgrades death and decay & haste).

sepi gets it. apparently you gotta be IT to get it

You forgot about place where ogre fight

you canna shove it right up uo ass

you dumb sob u cant even play what isit warcraft1

i really forgot i am warcraft1

you want to say your someone....from god

kemco

let us see after how many battles of 9 ogres vs 9 ogres will the shield upgrade have paid itself off.
first let's convert wood into gold. I do not have the numbers of wood and gold gathering speeds (at fortress phase of the game) therefore I cannot give exact factor  I used to have these numbers but I have lost my excel files. Let us go with an educated guess of factor of 2.2.
(900 + 500x2.2) / (550 + 70x2.2)
<=> (900 + 1100) / (550+154)
<=> 2000/704 = 2,840909090909091
So after 3 ogre battles of 9 vs 9 ogres your lvl 2 shield upgrade will have paid itself off.
Of course this is a very complicated topic and you need to balance your decisions in relation to every circumstance regarding your individual unique game (e.g.1: does your opponent have lvl 7 ogres or lvl 6 ogres, or e.g.2: can you yourself afford to get a temple of the damned plus 13 death knights plus the upgrades death and decay & haste).
Hey Sepi, I didn't look closely at your math to try to figure out your formula, but does it take in to account that every point of damage dealt above lethal damage is irreverent? I'm thinking that might be a key factor in how it might play out. The hp of an ogre and the average damage dealt might just work out to ogres generally killing each other with the same number of hits, and level 7 ogres just generally "overkill" level 6 ogres by a bit more.
If not, maybe it would be interesting to look at this as how many hits it takes a level 6 ogre to kill a level 7 ogre, vs a level 7 ogre to kill a level 6 ogre, figure out the distribution, and compute the gains/losses that way.

if you have one or two ogres die first then you have less ogres dealing damage than they do and the imbalance accelerates and your men get swamped and your units die and you lose the game.

let us see after how many battles of 9 ogres vs 9 ogres will the shield upgrade have paid itself off.
first let's convert wood into gold. I do not have the numbers of wood and gold gathering speeds (at fortress phase of the game) therefore I cannot give exact factor  I used to have these numbers but I have lost my excel files. Let us go with an educated guess of factor of 2.2.
(900 + 500x2.2) / (550 + 70x2.2)
<=> (900 + 1100) / (550+154)
<=> 2000/704 = 2,840909090909091
So after 3 ogre battles of 9 vs 9 ogres your lvl 2 shield upgrade will have paid itself off.
Of course this is a very complicated topic and you need to balance your decisions in relation to every circumstance regarding your individual unique game (e.g.1: does your opponent have lvl 7 ogres or lvl 6 ogres, or e.g.2: can you yourself afford to get a temple of the damned plus 13 death knights plus the upgrades death and decay & haste).
Hey Sepi, I didn't look closely at your math to try to figure out your formula, but does it take in to account that every point of damage dealt above lethal damage is irreverent? I'm thinking that might be a key factor in how it might play out. The hp of an ogre and the average damage dealt might just work out to ogres generally killing each other with the same number of hits, and level 7 ogres just generally "overkill" level 6 ogres by a bit more.
If not, maybe it would be interesting to look at this as how many hits it takes a level 6 ogre to kill a level 7 ogre, vs a level 7 ogre to kill a level 6 ogre, figure out the distribution, and compute the gains/losses that way.
there are a lot of other factors, lvl attack, position, how many ogres will change target in fight(if ogre is changing his target, he will watch his "new" opponent and he is miss one hit, while ogre which didnt change opponent will hit him)

Hey Sepi, I didn't look closely at your math to try to figure out your formula, but does it take in to account that every point of damage dealt above lethal damage is irreverent? I'm thinking that might be a key factor in how it might play out. The hp of an ogre and the average damage dealt might just work out to ogres generally killing each other with the same number of hits, and level 7 ogres just generally "overkill" level 6 ogres by a bit more.
If not, maybe it would be interesting to look at this as how many hits it takes a level 6 ogre to kill a level 7 ogre, vs a level 7 ogre to kill a level 6 ogre, figure out the distribution, and compute the gains/losses that way.
Great question. It took me a while to figure out a formula for this but I was able to abstract a method for brute forcing the "overkill" damage points for both situations 6vs7 & 7vs6. I'm very excited for this computation, I'll return with my math later (there will be a wall of text, but its nothing complicated).

/me looks at his feet, whistles, then looks out the window for a while, says nothing, and wanders away.... :blank:

i was going to show all the combinations of damage an ogre does but it seems that there will be something like 250 combinations in total and i do not feel like attaining such a deep understanding of this topic to start generating algorithmic solutions for this.
To answer your original question whether or not my numbers take into account the extra damage being irrelevant, the answer is: yes it does. now go find out yourself how it does it.

The easy solution to all of this is to use double click lust hacks

Win 99% of ogre wars

Lol Tk "double click lust hacks" will save you like half a second total and your ogres will probably still die to lusties before you even notice there's a battle.

I think I usually upgrade 2nd shield before 2nd sword 😞

/me enjoys the view despite having to crane his neck to see past the enormous elephant in the room