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21
Server.War2.ru / Re: Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance!
« Last post by woofy on November 13, 2018, 04:42:40 PM »
I think Exorcism being able to hit Ogre Mages could be interesting.

Exorcism nullifying OM mana, or unlusting units would be awesome

Except that wouldn't be exorcism anymore we might as well rename it dispel at this point.

I mean one could argue it may be fun to have skeletons as the primary spell for death knights, a strong shield instead of a heal for paladins or haste and why not summon demons for axe throwers instead of trolls regeneration and divine intervention for mages so that they can revive units. Soon enough that would not be anything like war2 anymore we can achieve balance without changing the mechanics nor the way the game works.

I created that post because I saw a lot of people talking about balancing things but really they mostly suggest we change the game. Warcraft 2 is a game that first is not badly designed, second is not that badly balanced either, and third which remaining success relies primarily on nostalgia.

People come back to the game that they remember and loved, almost every old player remembers paladins have heal and exorcism it is iconic they love these spells they remember what you could use it for, most people remember heal as being good because if felt good throughout the campaign,  most of them didn't ever use lust as efficiently as we do.

Almost none of them remembers exactly how much heal was able to heal and how much mana it cost, they certainly don't remember how powerful exorcism was and how much mana it cost. Players tend to have a memory bias they remember the game as being more balanced than it really is but they do remember very well what spells are and what they were used for.

People want to play the game they remember they come back for these cool mechanics, if it happens to be more balanced that is very good because either they wont remember or they will welcome the change because it will still be war2 but if it feels different that is where you start to loose people big time.

That is why here I am talking balance changes, and numbers tweaking, not mechanics changes or re-design (except for heal not having cap to behave like exorcism because that people wont remember and as mentioned before it should always have been the case).




I think Exorcism being able to hit Ogre Mages could be interesting.

Exorcism nullifying OM mana, or unlusting units would be awesome
22
Server.War2.ru / Re: Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance!
« Last post by Cel on November 13, 2018, 03:57:52 PM »
I think Exorcism being able to hit Ogre Mages could be interesting.

Exorcism nullifying OM mana, or unlusting units would be awesome

Except that wouldn't be exorcism anymore we might as well rename it dispel at this point.

I mean one could argue it may be fun to have skeletons as the primary spell for death knights, a strong shield instead of a heal for paladins or haste and why not summon demons for axe throwers instead of trolls regeneration and divine intervention for mages so that they can revive units. Soon enough that would not be anything like war2 anymore we can achieve balance without changing the mechanics nor the way the game works.

I created that post because I saw a lot of people talking about balancing things but really they mostly suggest we change the game. Warcraft 2 is a game that first is not badly designed, second is not that badly balanced either, and third which remaining success relies primarily on nostalgia.

People come back to the game that they remember and loved, almost every old player remembers paladins have heal and exorcism it is iconic they love these spells they remember what you could use it for, most people remember heal as being good because if felt good throughout the campaign,  most of them didn't ever use lust as efficiently as we do.

Almost none of them remembers exactly how much heal was able to heal and how much mana it cost, they certainly don't remember how powerful exorcism was and how much mana it cost. Players tend to have a memory bias they remember the game as being more balanced than it really is but they do remember very well what spells are and what they were used for.

People want to play the game they remember they come back for these cool mechanics, if it happens to be more balanced that is very good because either they wont remember or they will welcome the change because it will still be war2 but if it feels different that is where you start to loose people big time.

That is why here I am talking balance changes, and numbers tweaking, not mechanics changes or re-design (except for heal not having cap to behave like exorcism because that people wont remember and as mentioned before it should always have been the case).


23
Server.War2.ru / Re: Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance!
« Last post by woofy on November 13, 2018, 02:20:54 PM »
I think Exorcism being able to hit Ogre Mages could be interesting.

Exorcism nullifying OM mana, or unlusting units would be awesome
24
Server.War2.ru / Re: Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance!
« Last post by Cel on November 13, 2018, 01:52:33 PM »
So I did some more testing and set the life of ogres and farms to 1000 to be able to make a full blizzard and full d&d without units dying at the first two casts thus getting a better average because more casts of blizzard within each tests.

So far the "myth" holds odd number of tiles = more damage from blizzard even = more damage from d&d
the bigger the units the smaller the difference though.

Ogres take more damage from blizzard than d&d though it is worth mentionning that neither survives being directly under 1 cast of d&d or blizzard but it does mean that a unit running through has more chances to survive if it is d&d than if it is blizzard so yeah go humans on that part.

On farms the damage difference is consistent as dks will often even kill a farm where mages will mostly get them in yellow and red on rare occasions (1000hp farms) this one did seem pretty obvious though when trying with the 400hp default life of farms that noticeably d&d killed more farms than blizzard on average also because blizzard damages were more spread. So on that part yeah go Orcs.

On barracks there is a slight advantage for blizzard it seems but it is smaller than the one d&d has on farms and much much smaller than the one blizzard has on units.

On halls the advantage is for d&d but at this point it seems it is not at a big degree of difference and we would need a very big sample to get the exact difference.

Boats and dragons are 2x2 in size and they evolve on a different grid so I would definitely try them next because I am now very curious it could very well be that d&d is better for these if they count as 2x2 in size but it could be possible that blizzard deals more damage to them because they are units.

Oil platforms are in fact 3x3 in size but just like the boats and air, so far any difference between the two is hardly noticeable even with 1000 hp each, both spells seem to perform exactly the same on these, I do not have a big sample but I can already tell the difference if there is one is not as visible as the one that exist on farms and units.

Yeah @Lambchops I noticed that both spells have that weird behavior when multi-casting I am also pretty sure it works the same for other spells like runes tornado and even attack ground if I am not mistaking which is very handy :thumbsup:

Yes @Winchester I can agree that rune has more range of utility and is arguably a better spell at the moment, all things can be balanced by tweaking values and thus keeping the game mechanics intact though. There is value to this approach we all love these iconic spells and what they can do how they look like, if we can manage to make them all worth using without changing that we are doing things right.

I think people really love exorcism, heal, skeletons and flameshield these are very cool spells we only need to make them a little more worth it, and make spells that are a bit too op a little bit less.

All so that in the end we get to see everything used more often depending on different situations, players using lust to burst down defenses or win with short skirmishes or getting runes to get more map control and adopt a more defensive approach these type of things not just going lust for the simple reason that it is that much better than everything else. ;)
25
General Discussion / Re: massive diarrhea spot on the earth
« Last post by individualism results in littering on November 13, 2018, 11:09:21 AM »
USSR had the technology and never used it. meanwhile amerikkka almost destroyed the entire earth with nukes. this same stupid fucking country that had ideas like setting off a nuke on the moon (Project A119) and murdering its own citizens  then blame it on Cuba to gain popularity for war against them (Operation Northwoods)..


Largest man-made explosion ever: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsar_Bomba

How much does Putin pay to troll America? 2 rubles every 1k posts?
It's slave labour, have some self respect.



-- edit --

See Also: Kuzma's mother


communism was a backwards cult that killed a trillion people that simultaneously took a destroyed post-ww1 economy into a superpower on par with the u.s and which made impressive advances in technology - the confused liberal brain

trump probably got help from putin to get into the white house - also stupid liberal brain
26
General Discussion / Re: massive diarrhea spot on the earth
« Last post by easycompany on November 13, 2018, 09:59:10 AM »
it aint 11:58 for nothing ...why u think people busting ass  to get to mars?

"Largest man-made explosion ever: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsar_Bomba"
actually it was gonna be twice as big  :o but half of it would blow off to space.

"USSR had the technology and never used it. meanwhile amerikkka almost destroyed the entire earth with nukes. this same stupid fucking country that had ideas like setting off a nuke on the moon (Project A119) and murdering its own citizens  then blame it on Cuba to gain popularity for war against them (Operation Northwoods).. "

jon is right..usa was very careless in the testing..completely ruined a island ..blasting in the ocean. yup sent citizens to die.. god bless john kennedy
27
General Discussion / Re: Medical science in the 1700s
« Last post by Lambchops on November 13, 2018, 08:13:07 AM »
28
General Discussion / Re: massive diarrhea spot on the earth
« Last post by Lambchops on November 13, 2018, 08:02:40 AM »
USSR had the technology and never used it. meanwhile amerikkka almost destroyed the entire earth with nukes. this same stupid fucking country that had ideas like setting off a nuke on the moon (Project A119) and murdering its own citizens  then blame it on Cuba to gain popularity for war against them (Operation Northwoods)..


Largest man-made explosion ever: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsar_Bomba

How much does Putin pay to troll America? 2 rubles every 1k posts?
It's slave labour, have some self respect.



-- edit --

See Also: Kuzma's mother




29
Server.War2.ru / Re: Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance!
« Last post by Lambchops on November 13, 2018, 06:47:48 AM »
After running a few more tests last night, I must admit its starting to look like d&d does more damage to gts than blizz, and blizz does more damage to rax than d&d. Maybe the 2x2 - 3x3 thing is true. Not what I expected, but thats what the results seem to say. Got to be scientific about it.

Any thoughts on the difference between multicast d&d/blizz targeting a building and targeting the ground?

Here's the thing:

If you multi-select 9 mages or dks then target a building with blizz/d&d they all cast in exactly the same spot - the AOE is a perfect square, but if you target the ground *usually* they all cast at slightly different spots so the total AOE is more spread out.

BUT (and I have no idea why) if you put your 9 mages (or dks) in a straight line, either vertical or horizontal then multi-select and cast at the ground, they will all cast at the same spot as if you targeted a building.

This works out the same using either of the 2 multi-cast methods. It's weird  ???


The difference in effect is quite marked.   Thoughts? ???

-- edit --

this even works if they are in a diagonal line, but as soon as they are clumped together then they start targeting a random spot.


30
Server.War2.ru / Re: Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance!
« Last post by Winchester on November 13, 2018, 05:16:24 AM »
Ogres certainly do not have a way to one shot mages at such a range

placing runes on a typical path can kill even an invisible mage. And you can force the mages to take that path by continously walling off entry spots (s12 to 11 on gow for example, followed by the s12 to 9 spot, leaving only middle as the path to come from to reach 11, as you can put the farm at the top of s9 too )  Granted it's not a technical 1 shot kill, the odds of them stepping on another in a tight space is pretty high. It takes 2/5 of the runes to kill. so it can technically kill multiple mages in a single cast. And the odds of you microing a mage back after just stepping on nicely placed runes requires a very slow game speed.


Other then that your point on the Exorcism is fine, gold cost or mana cost reduction is fine. A mana cost reduction will allow you to 1 shot a death knight after spotting it with Holy Vision with the same paladin.
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