Warcraft II Forum
Warcraft II => Server.War2.ru => Topic started by: LiveFreeorDie on April 05, 2018, 11:50:08 PM
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(https://i.imgur.com/2Ljpqi1.jpg)
MR. BEAN
(https://i.imgur.com/79vNu7K.jpg)
ZONES
@XuRnT @eyyy im walkin here @mousEtopher @anyone else who would like to help out
I believe the community of Warcraft 2 would like to add two excellent, expertly made maps to the "valid" playing pool of maps that qualify for ladder 1s. These maps have been embraced by a significant portion of the community and have become beloved to many users as well as offering an exciting new battleground for those dipping their toes on them for the first time.
People are requesting these maps more and more and the quality of these productions is evident in both the beautiful visuals as well as the top notch game play seen on these masterpieces that deserve to go down in the W2 Hall of Fame for best maps ever created for the game of Warcraft 2.
If someone who knows could present the method for making these maps official, the community and I would be most appreciative. Swag at one point mentioned he had discovered a way to easily convert these maps but wanted a community vote on them. I am amenable to carrying out a community vote if that is the method that would best accomplish the officializing of these W2 cartographical gems.
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These maps are like the bastard love child of a 1 night stand. Sure technically a PUD but no real thought or effort put into them, shit choke points, strat variety, strategic Dk spacing, chop points, pathing and feel. Plots pud would be more fun, or Mini Gow... There are better ways to impress Nedro
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Lol. Don't even know where to start with that one.
Your implication seems to be there's something wrong with one night stands...this coming from you makes me chuckle.
If you either made a map better than one of these, or had even played a handful of games on either one, your reviews would hold more weight. As it is, it seems you are just stuck in a GOW rut in W2 life and stepping out of that comfort zone scares you. Live a little.
I don't remember Plots, but I'll be sure to refresh my memory by trying it out soon.
And your Nedro comment combined with your earlier comment today makes it look like you're jealous of your hilariously perceived "let's-impress-Nedro" vibes. They happen to be great maps on their own merits, which if you were as seasoned at critiquing maps as you are at your one magic pud, you would easily recognize. :)
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I think I only seen one of these maps hosted once when you weren't online... definitely not embraced by a "significant" amount of people, unless that means like 8 people.
Don't see how adding them to ladder would hurt though, should add Chop and BGH and everything else people play too, etc.
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I would like to see them in Forest and Winter.
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.. shit choke points, strat variety, strategic Dk spacing, chop points, pathing and feel...
What, like Garden of War?
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I would like to see them in Forest and Winter.
Mr. Bean in Forest
(https://i.imgur.com/1bTXaF9.jpg)
Mr. Bean in Winter
(https://i.imgur.com/FD1mT8j.jpg)
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I would like to see them in Forest and Winter.
Zones in Forest
(https://i.imgur.com/Eo75l68.jpg)
Zones in Winter
(https://i.imgur.com/vuAhvPf.jpg)
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they aren't the best maps. but they're not terrible ~ Yamon
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Well I would vote in favor of adding these and some other maps in the ladder maps.
Especially some 8plp water maps are needed for the ladder maps.
Cherrios
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I would like to see them in Forest and Winter.
Mr. Bean in Forest
(https://i.imgur.com/1bTXaF9.jpg)
Mr. Bean in Winter
(https://i.imgur.com/FD1mT8j.jpg)
I would like to see them in Forest and Winter.
Zones in Forest
(https://i.imgur.com/Eo75l68.jpg)
Zones in Winter
(https://i.imgur.com/vuAhvPf.jpg)
Thank you!
Aesthetics-wise, the Zones design reminds me a lot of Stir Crazy, in that it has a very structured, organized type of look. The difference is, of course, that each "zone" comes with openings that don't need to be chopped out. This gives it a playstyle rather reminiscent of Plots, as Paperboy pointed out. Plots is a little less structured but works in basically the same way. Plots can be found in the "Expansion" subfolder of the "Classic" maps folder. I would recommend players just stick with Plots, which is quite a fun map.
Mr. Bean looks like the type of Blizzard-created map that the original Warcraft II came with, not self-conscious about being perfectly balanced and symmetrical, which leads to a lot of the fun in a map like Garden of War. Now that I have seen it in winter, I have to say, it looks shockingly like Gold Separates East from West, right down to the water in the top left corner. But Mr. Bean seems to be its own map. I assume it is bigger than gseps and can accommodate more players; the spaces aren't the same, so building will play out differently; and it has that Continent to Explore-style random exp island. People familiar with the map after multiple plays probably have all sorts of quirks they've learned about it. Despite not being particularly innovative, and not having some type of gimmick, it looks like a fun map people could get into. I see a few places where units could get stuck in the trees, but people have figured out how to navigate around that in GOW, so I figure they could do the same here given repeated play.
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think of the implications on iron-man.. the point of ladder is there Blizzards maps and any player from the old versions who find war2 can play these maps and know where they stand unedited perserved in greatness
you want to add them, i say thats the worse idea since tvb counted as ladder match
im not puting abusive tone when i say that.. and i will say a new selection should be made
RU-ladder folder
with our greatest maps to be saved forever in all there glory for years later when war2 is no longer played in public lol
New AIE folder should be added for solo players
lets for a second think where this game is going (if it does not update to web browser it will die) 2years 5years 10years its coming and we know it but our RU-Ladder would be saved proof there was still people playing in 2018 :)
so update ladder (Noo)
update new RU-Ladder logo to the best maps and put em in new folder (Yess)
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But this map Must be balanced, mr bean is not.
I even wrote here how to do it ladder map no1 make single ladder map ;D
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But this map Must be balanced, mr bean is not.
I even wrote here how to do it ladder map no1 make single ladder map ;D
I have to challenge both statements.
"The map must be balanced."
Garden of War is not balanced.
6 and 8 it's impossible to build as close to gold, running to another location puts player behind, s9 as a start spot, you're behind and have only 30 k gold compared with double that at every other start spot.
11 has more gold than other start locations.
Some start locations can be walled off, some can't.
Very unfair and unbalanced...yet people like the map anyway.
A ton of other maps that are currently "legit" for ladder are also seriously unbalanced and unfair.
Some examples of unbalanced currently approved maps besides the lopsided GOW:
A Continent to Explore - middle mine start location has 70 k, other start location golds have 40 k
Crossover - bottom right start you can't build as close to gold mine
Death in the Middle - bottom right you can't build as close to gold mine
Oil is the Key - bottom right island has 20000 and 15000 in 2 gold mines, all other islands have 2 gold mines of 25000
POS classic - R2 spot requires farther hall or walling your peons out of gold mine
Battle_1 - no gold mines, a joke of a map
Plots (blid's recommendation) - some players have significantly more or less building space than others (ie. teal start spot much bigger than red start spot), and not all players have equal access to expand, ie. red start spot is blocked in by blue start spot, so blue has the advantage
WizWar - different start spots have different gold amounts (bot right 107500, bot left 102500, middle island (which has no building room btw and much harder to expand) 100000 each start spot
There are many more, but if "fairness" and "balance" is a necessary criterion, how are these maps valid?
I also challenge your second statement "Mr. Bean is not balanced."
Mr. Bean, each player starts with 55000 in starting gold mine. Every player can equally wall off. Every player has a similar amount of building room and similar access to trees. Every player has equal opportunity to expand. How on earth can you say it's not balanced? I'm not seeing that at all.
And I understand you can do it, ie. that it's possible, but I would only want to make it happen if enough people agree that it's what today's W2ers want, and I think that they do.
I think things that will expand the game, expand the map pool, and hopefully be factors in making a better place to play, thereby expanding the community and being an inviting place with fresh things happening, like new quality maps that people actually play and enjoy are good things.
I'd like to see the W2 community grow, and not just in numbers of players or numbers of maps worth playing again and again, but also in a spirit of welcome and togetherness, being joined in a game we all love.
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@UK_Restless
This isn't about what folder the maps go in. It doesn't matter to me too much what folder they go in or what the folder is called. Mr. Bean and Zones have been sitting in my cluttered "Downloads" folder for ages.
I think quality maps deserve recognition and official status, regardless of whether they were made by some computer game designer from 20 years ago who might have played W2 briefly or whether they were made by a W2 enthusiast more recently who played for decades and loved the game.
The notion that "old" maps are good and "new" maps are bad is faulty. I think people who have spent 20 years playing this game probably have a better idea of what makes a good map than someone who was given a job to make some maps for money and just smacked together something for a paycheque. There's a reason why a LOT of maps from a long time ago, like the "official" or "included" maps kind of suck.
I mean, take a look in Map Editor at the map SeaWar in Classic Expansion folder. Clearly made by a huge newb. Look especially at the middle and try to explain how what you see there makes any sense.
Change can be scary, but sometimes change is good.
There are also a lot of other good maps that could be considered for adding to a collection of official maps, like Pirate's Lagoon, Ocean Bloom, Party at Midnight, Canals, and XBremer1 has made a bunch of new ones that I've seen once or twice that could be really awesome, but I need to play them more to be sure.
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Yeah lot of Maps are not balanced, So u are going make another no balanced map? Logic
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I love logic lol. If you could bring some to the table I'd be delighted. :)
1. You haven't explained how Mr. Bean is unbalanced. I haven't seen anyone else complain about Mr. Bean being unbalanced.
2. It hasn't been proven that unbalanced maps are not good maps or fun maps or maps worth playing (as obviously the unbalanced GOW classic has a lot of devotees).
3. If unbalanced maps should not be used for ladder, unbalanced ones that are currently valid should have their status removed, including GOW. There would be a major outcry from everyone if GOW were invalidated, therefore the community as a whole supports unbalanced maps being valid for ladder 1s so long as the play value and enjoyability are there.
4. I'll repeat the question again since you missed it previously. How is Mr. Bean unbalanced? I don't think it is, and certainly not to the same degree as GOW is unbalanced, even if microscopic discrepancies in favor of some start spot(s) could be discovered.
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ok i will show
place where u can tower/cat your enemy
(http://s2.ifotos.pl/mini/wwwpng_qnsxshw.png) (http://ifotos.pl/z/qnsxshw/)
middle got 3, few spot got 2, few got 1, still balance map?
i know in your skill its fine but if u want "real" map when map will be fair and some1 wont win cause he got better spot
and i said it many times, GOW IS UNBALANCE, but ppl play it cause they know ONE MAP
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Ok, at least now I kind of know what you're saying, but I think it's a stretch to say it's unbalanced in the true sense of the term. I mean, in 1s, how many different spots are you going to tower/cat at a time? If you tower middle spot in 3 places, won't you disadvantage yourself by using too much res? Mid player can make cats and kill them all, can't he? Obviously you're higher skill level by far and maybe you see things I don't, but GOW is for sure a much more unbalanced map and ppl play it all day over and over and over again. Unbalanced doesn't mean unfun, the evidence shows.
Say it's team game and 2 people target middle at diff spots. Won't the towerers be vulnerable at home base from mid player's allies?
I mean, to get a 100% balanced map in every microscopic detail, you'd have to play straight squares that are geometrically identical in all areas. I think a lot of people enjoy the aesthetic appeal of a more natural looking layout, although geometrically symmetrical maps can be nice also, as in the example of Zones.
Swag how many games have you actually played on Mr. Bean?
I've been thinking of organizing a fun round robin tourney for my level players that anchors on the maps Mr. Bean and Zones, but I think I'd also like to open up a separate competition for the upper level players if they aren't too shy to try.
I've talked to some ppl already but finding a good time is tricky because people are in all diff time zones so no matter what time, it would seem someone gets left out.
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Map should be balance in 1s 2s 3s and 4s
If u are making balance for 2s that mean this is bad map
OK another few spots like right bottom can rape his peons only if dk will be in his base, mid spot can be rape by dk from top, let, right and bottom
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HAH... or then you could take a map like GOW that is so totally unbalanced that people routinely walk half way accross the map before building from 2 out of 8 spots. WTF?
It is the differences between the spots... each with their strengths and weaknesses that make for rich gameplay.
Even with maps that have "perfectly" balanced spots like chop or bgh, the spots still have their own characteristics because of the inherantly non-symmetrical mechanics of the game.
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You make stupid question, it should be YES/NO now i see 5 negative vs 4 positive
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For once I will agree with u8...
The poll should be:
Yes - please include the maps
No - do not include the maps
Conditional Yes - Include after small revise (for example peon spots)
Also the poll should not be whether we like or not the maps.
For example I do not like Mr Bean but I do not mind if it is included or not... There are plenty of maps that I do not like that are part of the ladder folder.
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Strong disagree with Szwagier. Ladder maps as they exist on our server consist of every Blizzard map, because all Blizzard map games are logged for the ladder. Therefore the standard for this map to qualify shouldn't be "every single thing has to be symmetrical and equal," because that's certainly not true of many many Blizzard maps. It just has to be balanced enough not to be a joke of a map, and Mr. Bean easily qualifies, and tbqh the winner is very, very rarely going to come down to spots as far as I can tell. If it's not equal enough for Szwagier, then he wouldn't have to host or join it, but basically he's being stupid and a dick. Personally, I think the totally symmetrical maps are usually sort of boring, and as Lambchops pointed out, they're still not really equal anyway. Yes to Mr Bean, firm no to Zones, which is too basic of a map to be worthy of a special addition. That's not an option on the poll so I won't vote
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yes sure cause i belive we should make a fair map and make championship not again at gow or maybe just tours (@XuRnT ??)on new map and would be nice it will be balance map
Forest trail/btbc isnt symmetrical but its balanced map
blind dick is you
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It's up to you to play maps you designate as fair enough for you, and up to tourney hosters to pick maps that you like, but there's objectively nothing about Mr. Bean that makes it less fair than a large number of currently valid maps for ladder - which, again, is ALL Blizzard maps.
I don't know if anyone actually cares about Mr. Bean besides Babyshark but if a bunch of people do, no reason it shouldn't be added.
For you to try to say it's too unfair is dishonest if you compare it to what else is out there, and for you to say other people don't understand because they're not as good at War2 as you is just extremely arrogant
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well said blid, very much agree! idk that many people care much in general about the ladder map selection but both these maps have been pretty widely played by a good amount of people at this point, and at least one bunch enjoyed it enough to continue hosting it on their own after i signed off which impressed me! I'm in favor of adding these & other quality customs to the ladder pool, it seems easy enough to do & not many/any downsides that i can see. as with current ladder picks no one has to play anything they don't want to
another thought -- if i were to set up a site that tracks which maps are hosted in order of frequency like that usa-archer site (seems not hard to do & map get around to it sometime) that could be another metric for determining whether or not to add maps.
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Swag mentioned something along these lines in the Custom Map Recognition thread:
I remember there was stats about ru.server maps,players
we can also add if map was playing 100(50?) times in month as another rule to add new map
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I’ve played both of these. Mr Bean is an ok map, better than some of the current ladder maps and has a few unique things about it that make it fun.
Zones isn’t that fun. Too symmetrical and too much open space.
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The current numbers at the poll show that the community overwhelmingly wants to officialize Mr. Bean and Zones and have them included for ladder and included in a new edition of War2Combat.
It looks like Mr. Bean and Zones have received the welcome wagon and now we just need to figure out who will be the one to do the honors, to go down in history as the Official Officiator of Mr. Bean and Zones. Forever.
I'm thinking a Map Initiation Ceremony.
We need a master of ceremonies, someone to send out invitations, a few plaques, a DJ, the works.
It will be an event to remember.
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I think most people like Mr Bean more, ive seen three different people (thats counting myself) say Zones is a notyhing map...
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problem was that this maps were bored..
I could play gow 30 times and still its "funny" while when i played 10 games.. I was bored nothing special
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Lol, I think I know why you feel like that!
While GoW is not my favorite map... I have to accept that GoW is a map that you can have action at all the stages of the game!
And that makes it one of the best maps ever created!
I know that people do not like the simplicity of zones but that is a map that you again get actions at all the stages of the game...
And a map that allows for many different strategies also :-D
I plan to watch your matches with Kyr Voodoo one of these days.
See what strategies you used to kick his butt :-P (I'm pretty sure you did that badly)
Cheerios
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Mr. Bean is the next big thing.
Yeah it's quite beany.