Warcraft II Forum

Warcraft II => Server.War2.ru => Topic started by: Cel on March 07, 2018, 07:39:42 PM

Title: Encourage players to play for the challenge. Remove counters all together :P
Post by: Cel on March 07, 2018, 07:39:42 PM
I discussed with a lot of new players since I joined war2.ru and there is one common thing that always comes out of it "I don't want to play because I am bad" also "players are just super rude when you don't perform well" etc we all have heard that don't we?

My point is the following:
Since when did it become more cool and rewarding to win a game than to have a challenging and hard game even though we might or will most likely loose it?

Well from what I see the way we do stats does go this way, and trust me even though all say stats are stupid and don't mean anything some people do take it pretty seriously.

Here is one example:
I played a game against a player that was much stronger than me (I wont give any name its not the point) but he tried something that went wrong and instead of playing the game as it was and have a challenging and hard game he basically asked me to ally victory as he really wasn't planning to loose a game like for real! You join a game and play it only if you think you wont loose? Because I didn't want that person to feel bad I accepted but hey man if that is not misplaced pride what is that?
Thus the question above ^

So my proposal is the following we remove these counters all together, they don't mean anything they just encourage people to put value in the win more than the fun and the challenge a game brings. So from what I see they just don't bring anything good to the game at all so lets just get rid of them.

So you might argue well then how do we know people skill levels, and I say well you never did know... At least now if the guy was surfing it wont change your stupid stats so you can quit whining about it play the game make yourself an idea of that player's level and next game you can already balance it better.

If we really want to have some kind of ranking system it should be separated from the usual games people play. And surely it should adopt a elo system where there is no reward when you win against a much lower elo player.
Here is one explaination of how it could work: How Elo Ratings Are Calculated - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTaAWtuLHuo#)

But for casual games they should have no recording so that people don't feel punished when they try crazy stupid things to make the games more fun / tricky.

Some people (me to take one random example) genuinely don't care about their stats so when I feel my team is a bit stacked I play something that is most likely to under-perform but still is fun and can work so that everyone has a chance to win and most of the time it even is rewarding to win that way or even loose if you put a good fight and it was intense. I would like us to try to encourage these kind of behaviors.

If that happens then new players might not loose as many games and if they do well at least there will not be a constant reminder for anyone so see and pick on.
They should be proud of playing the game even though its hard.
In that way they even deserve more respect than some much stronger players if you ask me :P

So yeah my point we remove them counters so we get:
> less judging and bullying over meaningless numbers.
> less incentive to stack teams
> less misplaced pride that goes in the way of fun
> less punishing risk taking
> more fun for everyone overall
Title: Re: Encourage players to play for the challenge. Remove counters all together :P
Post by: LiveFreeorDie on March 07, 2018, 07:42:19 PM
You can achieve the same result with players that want this by agreeing to ally victory all every game you play before starting. :)
Title: Re: Encourage players to play for the challenge. Remove counters all together :P
Post by: Cel on March 07, 2018, 07:55:18 PM
The point is you wouldn't even have to do that since winning or loosing would not matter at all in the end you would just be happy that you had a good game.
Plus this is more about giving incentive to more people to naturally seek challenging experiences and balanced games over stock piling stupid points over intentionally stacked games.
You would be surprised to see how much a simple change on the rewarding system in a game can change players behaviors and experience overall.
In our case I think that wouldn't really cost anything and could be very rewarding.

Especially when it comes to the way new players are introduced to the game.

I am just pointing out that maybe that is something we could discuss and think about as it could induce good changes at very low cost.  ^-^
Title: Re: Encourage players to play for the challenge. Remove counters all together :P
Post by: O4L on March 07, 2018, 09:09:03 PM
Remove all units except archers
Title: Re: Encourage players to play for the challenge. Remove counters all together :P
Post by: Lambchops on March 07, 2018, 09:19:14 PM
Remove all units except archers

YES!  :thumbsup:  :thumbsup:  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Encourage players to play for the challenge. Remove counters all together :P
Post by: Cel on March 07, 2018, 09:23:19 PM
That would make it less exotic and unexpected though  :))

When a team is stacked replace all attacking units they can buy by skeletons now that is a handicap XD

BTW your archers killed a looot of mages with them transports in that game: HSC | XuRnT/Cel/Raz/Restless vs. Seth/Everlast/Neau/ggggowwww - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bF6sX_iBosU#)

That is actually a very good example of how self inflicted handicaps and rules can lead to both challenging and fun games :-)

What I am proposing is just making sure we do all we can to help players be in that state of mind where they want to get the most of each game, have fun and most challenging games possible and nothing stops them or deters them from that.
Especially being bad or having new players in their games and/or taking risks. ;-)
Title: Re: Encourage players to play for the challenge. Remove counters all together :P
Post by: tk[as] on March 07, 2018, 09:59:18 PM
People are silly ... They want wins to make themselves feel good about themselves. They honestly think their win/loss record validates their skill.

How come I can have a losing record and dominate 95% of war2 players 1v1 in their map/res/speed?
Title: Re: Encourage players to play for the challenge. Remove counters all together :P
Post by: Meck on March 07, 2018, 10:12:41 PM
People are silly ... They want wins to make themselves feel good about themselves. They honestly think their win/loss record validates their skill.

How come I can have a losing record and dominate 95% of war2 players 1v1 in their map/res/speed?

Because you’re a terrible teammate?
;p


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Encourage players to play for the challenge. Remove counters all together :P
Post by: Player on March 07, 2018, 10:41:02 PM
People are silly ... They want wins to make themselves feel good about themselves. They honestly think their win/loss record validates their skill.

How come I can have a losing record and dominate 95% of war2 players 1v1 in their map/res/speed?

Because you’re a terrible teammate?
;p


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Lol
Title: Re: Encourage players to play for the challenge. Remove counters all together :P
Post by: tk[as] on March 08, 2018, 11:35:06 AM
People are silly ... They want wins to make themselves feel good about themselves. They honestly think their win/loss record validates their skill.

How come I can have a losing record and dominate 95% of war2 players 1v1 in their map/res/speed?

Because you’re a terrible teammate?
;p


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Oh please! You and I both know I'm a phenomenal dancer now I know you're lying through your teeth
Title: Re: Encourage players to play for the challenge. Remove counters all together :P
Post by: Igognito on March 08, 2018, 11:54:34 AM
We do have an ELO system.
I implemented one. It is reported together with the Ladder system and only takes in account the ladder games.
Also if my bot is online (intel) you can ask for the elo of a player with a message to intel.

\m intel igognito(z)

Title: Re: Encourage players to play for the challenge. Remove counters all together :P
Post by: Cel on March 08, 2018, 03:24:11 PM
I mean yeah a true elo system is good and more relevant than plain stupid win/loss counters still I believe that not all games should be recorded.

Only specific ones like iron man or "ranked" ones we could make a rule that if you want your game to be counted in you have to add "[ranked]" in the end of the game name or something.
That way anyone that enters it knows it counts and the rest of "non ranked" games could be a place where people feel free to try things and seek a challenge without necessarily hurting their "rank".

I mean I know it feels like it is a small thing but overall you'd be surprised how much little things like that can subconsciously change human behaviors.
Title: Re: Encourage players to play for the challenge. Remove counters all together :P
Post by: Szwagier on March 08, 2018, 03:25:34 PM
lets make official spoof hack, if some1 join there will be no name just empty space and u will dont know vs who u are playing (-ping only for mods!)

yes i fap all the time "oh i got +50%wr yessssssssssssss yessssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss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Title: Re: Encourage players to play for the challenge. Remove counters all together :P
Post by: WyZe on March 08, 2018, 04:20:13 PM
> less judging and bullying over meaningless numbers. - No one judges players based on their stats, i.e. people still let TTP into their games. They know each others skill level without stats.
> less incentive to stack teams - People stack to win, not to buff their stats, they could just play LOLEZWIN! to buff their stats if that's what they cared about.
> less misplaced pride that goes in the way of fun - How?
> less punishing risk taking - Uhhh..
> more fun for everyone overall - n0pe.
Title: Re: Encourage players to play for the challenge. Remove counters all together :P
Post by: Cel on March 08, 2018, 04:51:35 PM
Ok so other questions:
Why do you want to keep these numbers?
What do they really mean to you?
What good are they overall?

I can give you reasons why they can have a negative effects on players behaviors using rational incentive game theory.
Now you say you don't want to ditch them give me one reason we should keep them.
 :critter:

*Grabbing popcorn*
Title: Re: Encourage players to play for the challenge. Remove counters all together :P
Post by: WyZe on March 08, 2018, 05:01:33 PM
They mean nothing to me, I'm just playing devils advocate because I think your entire premise is flimsy nonsense that only makes sense in your head and won't change anything even if they are removed.

lol @ rational incentive game theory though, that's good.

Title: Re: Encourage players to play for the challenge. Remove counters all together :P
Post by: Cel on March 08, 2018, 06:25:50 PM
Well here is the approach my logic follows when I say we can easily identify reasons why they can have a negative effect on player's behaviors:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behavioral_game_theory
Indeed game theory is good and a very powerful way of analyzing consequences of rules and actions on people's behaviors.

Now even if you think that is bullshit and you think that argument is not good enough well give us one reason we should keep them.
One reason why you would think we need these numbers.

I am not saying removing them is the only way I am saying we should start thinking about this and maybe discuss it.

I have a proposition I think it might be a good start lets discuss it, mix points of views, and maybe agree on something.
I am willing to stay open minded but for the moment I honestly do not see what these numbers are good for though I can see reasons why we would be better off without them.

Again very very small change but hey maybe someone put these numbers there for a reason?
I want to know what it is.
So maybe we can talk about this see if that reason still stands and if there is a better reason to get rid of them and/or change the thing.
Title: Re: Encourage players to play for the challenge. Remove counters all together :P
Post by: Lambchops on March 08, 2018, 07:11:06 PM
I don't care about stats. They mean very little. GOW ef players will have disproportionatly larger win stats because there is tradition of watchings games in that format. Total games played/watched is relevant, as is the % of discs.

I don't think the stats system will or should be changed, simply because it is a job that someone has to do, you can't just snap your fingers and these things magically happen, someone - presumable iL would have to devote their time to doing this, and I think if he had spare time to spend on server mods he would do something more useful - or IDK maybe this is simple to change.

Either way, personally I really don't care about stats.
Title: Re: Encourage players to play for the challenge. Remove counters all together :P
Post by: Cel on March 08, 2018, 07:21:06 PM
^Now that is more constructive thinking it might be hard to do although if it is on server side it could be also very easy depending on how it is done and of course that would be a good concern to take into consideration.

I changed the poll options because I wasn't being very constructive and did not reflect properly the open-mind I was saying I would keep so there you go lets be a bit more serious about this :-)

If it is doable and you guys want to keep these numbers I want to know why and your point of views and your thinking behind it.
Title: Re: Encourage players to play for the challenge. Remove counters all together :P
Post by: MaStA{hR} on March 08, 2018, 07:49:56 PM
I understand the negative side affects, but as a competitive player, I will likely quit for good if there is no stat component. I would lose motivation other than sporadically playing with random friends that are also rarely ever on. Some people play only for stats still, which is kind of funny this game being so old and stats meaning nothing, but I would like to see status quo maintained. Focus effort on server improvements like hosting issues/ping rather than something that holds little bearing to noobs getting in or out of games.
Title: Re: Encourage players to play for the challenge. Remove counters all together :P
Post by: Cel on March 08, 2018, 08:09:36 PM
I am not talking about removing all kind of stats/ranking more about keeping them where they are relevant and remove the ones that are not.
This is about clear separation providing both competitive ranking and serious gaming as we know it.
And a place where you can do all the bad things you want without it be counted anywhere so people feel they have a place to practice.

Basically you would just have to say your game is ranked so people know when they get in and are in the right state of mind.
These games would have way more relevant stats too.
We already have a ranking system what I am talking about are the win/loss counters you have in your profile that I think do not add competitiveness but still may have negative effects.

These are the only ones I am talking about removing I do not want to remove the ladder just maybe make it more clear when a game will be ranked and not for everyone :-)

If you are a competitive player you would see how it actually helps your cause.
From that perspective to have both things separated new players will tend to avoid ranked games until they think they are ready so you will get more interesting and serious games.
Also because basically in a ranked game you don't have watchers you can have ranked team games stats that mean something now that would be nice.
Title: Re: Encourage players to play for the challenge. Remove counters all together :P
Post by: ~ToRa~ on March 08, 2018, 08:16:42 PM
Will never happen.
We been waiting for the next AH update for 2 years now. Odds of something like this materializing is slim to none.
Title: Re: Encourage players to play for the challenge. Remove counters all together :P
Post by: Meck on March 08, 2018, 08:33:03 PM
I would be interested to know how you would get to an Elo for any game type outside of 1v1. Is this possible?

Lots of players never do 1v1s, or enough over a period of time to establish a stable and representative elo.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Encourage players to play for the challenge. Remove counters all together :P
Post by: Cel on March 08, 2018, 08:38:51 PM
Mankind always wanted to fly some said it would never happen because none could reach that goal before them
yet that did not stop humanity to seek solutions and  to eventually succeed.

What I mean by that is that it does not hurt to ask/discuss about it and check our options see what we can do toward these goals.

But if we stay in the cave and watch at the wall we'll never see what's possible or not out there.
Maybe that is not worth, maybe it is worth, in any case if that has a potential to have a positive effect on the community at a very low cost that is worth talking about don't you agree?

Yet we do not know what it would take to make that change it is true but it is quite common to a lot of great ideas you start with an idea and then you think about how to make it happen and if you can :-)

@Meck yes it is possible to adapt a elo system to team games though for that to work we need to make sure that all players are on the same page when you start the game and that team cannot be changed afterward. At the moment it is impossible to know if a game was played seriously or if there were trolls, watchers or else in the game. The idea to keep ranked games separated from the rest by say making hosts add a keyword like "ranked" in the title of the game for it to be ranked would help toward that goal.
Title: Re: Encourage players to play for the challenge. Remove counters all together :P
Post by: Lambchops on March 08, 2018, 10:21:37 PM
I would be interested to know how you would get to an Elo for any game type outside of 1v1. Is this possible?

Lots of players never do 1v1s, or enough over a period of time to establish a stable and representative elo.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yeah I usually only do 1s as a last resort if I can't get a team game, that or sometimes with friends when were just chatting and having a laugh while we play.
Title: Re: Encourage players to play for the challenge. Remove counters all together :P
Post by: woot. on March 09, 2018, 12:39:00 AM
Not all wins are equal remember that... Only i leave games when i win.. or troll/point shaving for someone to win to make them feel better about themselves... ie when someone dont want to vis me after i asked multiple times i will leave the game and not take a win..  to me its really just a game that i enjoy to play/watch... stats is just but stats. real recognize real... but there are times where i do feel the high from it and i get cocky from time to time.. but i try to keep myself in check... nuff said gg ??? :o :P >:D ;)
Title: Re: Encourage players to play for the challenge. Remove counters all together :P
Post by: Igognito on March 09, 2018, 06:15:17 AM
Hi all,

My penny to the topic.

1) \stats as is now should be ignored... Better use \m Intel XXX. That will give you the ladder stats and Elo of player. Not perfect but much more representative.

2) \stats should be interpreted as total # of games and # of disconnects. Wins/loss ratio is irrelevant.

To this I would like to point out that I would prefer a title rather than the numbers.
Something like new player is a: Peon, 500+ games is an axe throwing, 1000+ games a grunt etc...
Similar with the forum titles.

3) team games are complicated to evaluate. I had made some suggestions when I was developing the Elo.
If people are interested we can implement a team Elo score in parallel with the Elo score.

4) watchers are not a problem as the are detected for ladder games. Trolls are a problem...

5) I would keep my hopes low to see anything being integrated in game. But I could implement anything out of the game and Intel could be doing the reporting in game.

Cheers
Title: Re: Encourage players to play for the challenge. Remove counters all together :P
Post by: Cel on March 09, 2018, 04:18:02 PM
When stupid numbers stop you from enjoying, have fun and playing a game that is when we can question why we need them in the first place.  :critter:
Title: Re: Encourage players to play for the challenge. Remove counters all together :P
Post by: Cel on March 10, 2018, 05:15:44 AM
? biased how so?

BTW I never said it was you you just happen to find yourself in that story.
Well indeed, we had such a story though it is also quite relevant too.

See the problem is the carrot and the stick are stupidly designed. We are talking about highly inefficient and corrupted way of counting wins and loss that do not give you incentive to play better or even promote competition.

I think it is better to have a place where we don't count so you can loose after trying to hop without knowing how it works :P.

And later when you know how to play and you feel like you are in a mood to play seriously you can play a ranked game where your rank is actually properly representing your real level in the community.

Not just how many time you destroyed new players and lower level players in a stacked and unfair manner.

You want a carrot well lets make a carrot but not one that will make you want to stack games, better one that makes you seek competitive and challenging opponents.

I am talking about a real Elo system like in any competitive games you see today in E-Sports.
And a clear separation between ranked games and non ranked games.
Title: Re: Encourage players to play for the challenge. Remove counters all together :P
Post by: Szwagier on March 10, 2018, 05:51:56 AM
any system in w2 WONT WORK since there is 200? active players, most of them will dodge cause they dont want lose "elo"
System will work if there will be ladder like in sc/w3 where u cant choose your opponent

if some1 want "free wins" there should be option buy "1000 wins but u need 5$ donate tours" -_-
Title: Re: Encourage players to play for the challenge. Remove counters all together :P
Post by: Cel on March 10, 2018, 09:23:12 PM
Most of them wont have to dodge they would just play non ranked games and have fun.
Though I agree having a ranked blind queue would be awesome though close to impossible to do as you would have to edit the .exe quite heavily.

Unless:
We (I could do that) make a ranked queue system outside of the game that you register on with your in game aka.

On a dedicated site you would basically queue up you or even with your team and basically say if you can host.
The site then gives you your opponent out of a random list and you then have to meet in game, host the game with the map and settings the site gives you and play.
(you would have to run insight though so we caster can get some great replays after games are played but also because it would make conflicts easier to fix).

We could even think of adding the possibility to pick/ ban maps from the list of maps we want to feature.
And also say one or two type or starting resources. (like for example you don't want to play high res).
And much more, these kind of features are then very easy to set up.

We could have two types of queue:
One for when you want to play within a certain time frame:
Of course when you click the button you basically say to the site you are ready to play/host the game within that timeline could be from now to like one or two hours depending on the time you say you have. Then the algorithm would try to match you up with people on that same timeline.

The other queue is like timeless it gives you your opponent and try to minimize ELO difference and until you played that opponent on the given settings you cannot play someone else on that queue.

No shows (games that are not played) we could have something following this idea:
For the time frame queue the site gives you like 20 min to show up and create the game with the name and password given and play it.
Players have to show up with the correct AKA.
The host has to create the game within the first 10 min then click a button to say the game is created.
Then the rest of the players have to join the game within the remaining time.
Players click a button and the site will try to find that game if it is up. It will say the game is up if it is but if it was not found although host said it was up then host is declared to have lost the game so host has to keep hosting.
Once all players are in the game game can start.
Any other conflict like host booting people and players leaving game would require SS as proof.
we could also have an option for all players to basically say they couldn't play the match for x reason in which case one player can click a button and if all players click it the match is cancelled plain and simple ( for example host and player conflict lag or drops ). Again here if game is not playable and players do not agree then a ss can solve the issue. (maybe we can even see logs for latency or drops).

I mean that is a possibility this I know it is doable and would deserve a topic to make sure we design this together.
Here though we talk about removing the two counters that shows when you do /stats.
These counters are the only thing I am talking about removing in that post as I think it would be better to have nothing than this.
We could either remove them completely or replace them by just the number of games played overall which is actually the only real thing you can read from them anyways.

:-)
Title: Re: Encourage players to play for the challenge. Remove counters all together :P
Post by: Paper_Boy on March 10, 2018, 11:04:34 PM
After every game i play, I type / stats THEN BEAT MY FUCKING CHEST LIKE A FUCKING APE, AINT NOBODY GOING TO STOP ME oR HOLD ME DOWN> I played on Kali where there were no official stats and if both people got back doored on friends, people would peon Hop and a stand off or a stale mate would occur. IF the guy eventually left, U had to take a SS incase he tried to lie in chat about the loss. Like Malik Yoba in Cool Runnings “When I look in Dee mirror, I SEE PRIDE, I SEE POWER, I SEE A BAD MUTHA FUCKAA WHO DONT TAKE SHIT FROM NoBODY”  The Current system is allowable for both philosophies, those who prefer more competitive stakes or those who don’t take numbers as serious or only vs certain players.  I host a lot of games and stats make it easier for me to balance teams, someone with a 1:5 Loss ratio requires a stronger player etc. Like a trophy some players take pride after a hard fought victory and there are still tons of people dicking around exploring more creative strats with out sacrificing the competitive nature,  So what if some people take pride in their stats,  it’s not your place to say, not everyone has to share your value or belief system. Takes a lot of audacity to think you’re going to some how impose your beliefs upon the entire server because you’ve had a few unpleasant experiences and don’t like to Av people (I could give 2 shits).  Clearly your a liberal, u have a strange notion you’re going to some how socially engineer the server for participation trophies and have displayed clear contempt in your poll with anyone who has an opposing view point. You’re posting a lot of unrealistic non sense, bad ideas aside its hard to take a chop player seriously on matters concerning actual war2. DONNY YOU’RE OUT OF YOUR ELEMENT^


You never provided your Supposed “game theory” analogy , posting a wiki link makes u a poser who doesn’t know
what the fuck ur talking about.
Title: Re: Encourage players to play for the challenge. Remove counters all together :P
Post by: Lambchops on March 10, 2018, 11:18:13 PM
hard to take a chop player seriously on matters concerning actual war2.

Spoken like a chop noob with his tail between his legs from too many thrashings ;)


Good point about the hosting tho - you know if hight win/loss they have been watching lots of gow...
Title: Re: Encourage players to play for the challenge. Remove counters all together :P
Post by: Cel on March 11, 2018, 12:50:45 AM
@Lambchops LOL yeah pretty much :P

Again I'm not talking about removing every way we have to know a player's level I am proposing to have:
1) A non ranked games place for people to do what ever the fuck they want spectate games, troll and whatever.
2) A Elo ranking that has more meaning because not as easily trickable. (especially if we limit the ranking system to people that have played like at least 100 games or something like that :P

Keeping the total number of games played on the server will tell you already how new the guy is in a more positive manner (see the fact that he watched, lost or won these games does not matter are all positive experiences for a player's global level and should be reflecting that I think).
A ratio that is not taking into account if the game was stacked if you were a watcher and all that does not send the same message.

I don't have a specific "game theory" I am saying the school of thinking that I would relate the most to when in comes to link behaviors to rational choices and partial pieces of information is "game theory".
This is group of models of thinking that studies how the way information is given to players influences the way they behave.

In that particular case having an aggregated information replacing these counters could avoid some bad feelings making that information more about "experience" in a positive way.

That is all I am saying now you are free to disagree and it seems like a lot of you guys do.

So yeah maybe things are perfectly fine the way they are. Now it does not hurt to exchange/share points of views does it? :P

All I am thinking about here is how can we as a community with little changes make this server more attractive for new players, beginners, E-sport, and competitive scene to stop it from dying all together.

I can be wrong yet again we didn't get to have central heating by saying all was fine and comfy in the caverns and saying we shouldn't be talking about changing things.
 :critter:
Title: Re: Encourage players to play for the challenge. Remove counters all together :P
Post by: Lambchops on March 11, 2018, 03:59:58 AM
After every game i play, I type / stats THEN BEAT MY FUCKING CHEST LIKE A FUCKING APE, AINT NOBODY GOING TO STOP ME oR HOLD ME DOWN

but I gotta admit I love this description...  kudos+cred llol
Title: Re: Encourage players to play for the challenge. Remove counters all together :P
Post by: Igognito on March 12, 2018, 09:14:53 AM
@Lambchops LOL yeah pretty much :P

Again I'm not talking about removing every way we have to know a player's level I am proposing to have:
1) A non ranked games place for people to do what ever the fuck they want spectate games, troll and whatever.
2) A Elo ranking that has more meaning because not as easily trickable. (especially if we limit the ranking system to people that have played like at least 100 games or something like that :P



@Cel THERE is an Elo ranking system!
http://ladder.war2.ru/ (http://ladder.war2.ru/)
Also you can get these information in game by asking intel!

\m intel XXX
for example: \m intel igognito(z)

or try: \m intel me
etc...

Now whether the Elo system is perfect or not we can discuss about it.

The current Ladder, Elo (2 different systems) both have their imperfections but are certainly more precise than the in build \stats command.

Lets now be honest, the problem that any system is going to have is Smurfs...
You actually, suggested a partial solution for smurfing and that might worth investigating it. (consider entry to ladder/elo only after a minimum # of games)

At an ideal world I would like the following system:
In game 4 buttons called: Join Game, Create Game, Find Ranked Game, Enter Tournament Game

These 4 buttons would be handled differently and would provide much clearer insight on player ranking.

Currently we have the following scheme:
every 1v1 (with or without watchers) on a Classic or BNE map counts for your Ladder rank and modifies your Elo score.
every other game does not count and it is considered a casual game.

I doubt that anyone gives focus on your actual \stats
\stats is mainly used to figure out how many games a player had, and to reveal some smurfs. (When someone is with 10 wins 0 loses 99% is a smurf)

Uncovering of smurfs is the only reason that I would keep \stats as is. Otherwise I would made it the sum of the games played.

While personally, I think we could improve on the current system, I do not think you are looking from the right angle.

What we certainly need is Tournaments, those attract people. And we need tournaments for noobs where they get to be entertained and be awarded!
That would motivate the players to stay!

@~ToRa~, @XuRnT both and more people are trying with organizing tournaments.
I think also organizing a championship would be interesting.

Anyhow, if you think you have a concrete idea to improve the existing Elo or ladder system I can implement the idea.
Title: Re: Encourage players to play for the challenge. Remove counters all together :P
Post by: Cel on March 12, 2018, 05:40:48 PM
So there is a ranked elo system.
Therefore the argument saying you need the built-in counters stats for competition is invalidated as you have more reliable and accurate numbers to look up to :P

 :critter:

Well yeah maybe we could rank even team games if we select them by name using a keyword.
If for example you add "ranked" in the game name like "Gow ranked" it would be very obvious what game counts and what game doesn't.

I noted what Szwagier said about people not wanting to play better players, the problem is it will affect any Elo system if players can consistently choose their opponents.
Having different buttons and queues in game would be the dream solution but seems a bit hard to do as you would have to modify the existing binary.
Therefore we could try to make a "Random queue site" to try to overcome that problem like I was describing in my answer like two posts before.
Making a independent site/app is way more doable. even if we make it available on smartphones. :-)

But this would be an entire different topic :P
Title: Re: Encourage players to play for the challenge. Remove counters all together :P
Post by: O4L on March 12, 2018, 06:08:53 PM
Nobody would write Ranked in their game name just like nobody would want to go through effort to report loses on Cases. Thats one of the bright things about the current ladder it takes care of it for them and its still there for those who want to use it or easy to ignore if they don't. (Ladder.war2.ru)
Title: Re: Encourage players to play for the challenge. Remove counters all together :P
Post by: Igognito on March 13, 2018, 02:53:33 PM
I could start thinking of approaches for ranking team games.
Writing a keyword would not be necessary.
But I can see a lot of problems that would arise by ranking team games.

Anyhow, when I implemented the Elo system noone was interested in ranking team games.

What I would like to see would be tournament games to be ranked with higher importance and then it would also mean to rank team games too!
I have ideas on that but I dont have the time right now to elaborate.

Anyhow, have a look at the current ladder and Elo system to get some ideas your self.
If you see something that can be directly improved please tell us :-)