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Server.War2.ru / Re: HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced
« on: January 30, 2019, 03:06:42 PM »I keep answering respectfully because maybe you are being serious with the whole thing but I honestly thing you may just be trolling at this point.
You seriously think that in 20 years you are the first one who wants to make it work?
Do you think no one ever ran the math before you to see how much game speed affected both races?
My "ticks" are not wrong, a tick is one game time unit that is not depending on the speed the game is played at, that is what ticks are.
Warcraft 2 is a turn based game where turns are ticks and time is what makes every turn pass to the next.
If you want to remove time out of the equation it is simple: consider war2 a turn based game where a tick is one turn which is why talking in ticks makes sense.
Humans need less workers than Orcs? In what scenario exactly? Prove it!
Do the math and / or share with us one build order that works better for humans than orcs where humans have such an advantage.
And when I say a build order I mean for every peon up to the time you get your advantage tell us what are the orders you give them.
Maybe you feel more comfortable putting your peasant in the gold and not on the wood that is your preference but you see the thing is your argument without facts to back it up can go both ways. One might say if you fail to be as fast when playing the orcs than as a human it just mean you are bad at managing your resources it basically is not relevant.
But hey!
If you really think you can come up with a build order that will allow you to get footmen / knights / Mages faster with better upgrades as humans than an orc can do please go ahead and give us the build order including every peons and what you send them to do.
That way we can discuss / analyse / compare with what an orc may be able to do in the same amount of game time (Ticks) and starting resources, that would be more interesting than just opinionated statements.
Here is what a fact looks like:
On POS low and many other settings human weapon upgrade cost 1200 more gold than the orc weapon upgrade this is 2 extra grunts from the starting gold mine. On a map like this it can be a significant advantage.
As in many other maps really where gold is more scarce than lumber gold is the one resource players are used fighting over. Now that is also true and undeniable.
Some other fruits for though:
Submarines / Giant turtles rush requires exactly the same number of peons / peasants before upgrading your keep to get your first two turtles out.
same Sappers / Demos Rush.
same goes for DK + D&D / Mage + Blizzard Rush.
Fact is it is true because for all these strats the units / upgrades and ticks costs are exactly the same.
I am betting your point is if you do upgrade your melee troops and include that to your build order it changes things then all I am asking is that you prove it and give us a real undeniable fact to look at.
Now more facts:
The speed makes targeting slow and other tricky spells of humans easier so we may assume an ideal scenario where both players always cast their spell perfectly and never miss:
If humans have perfect micro then the same goes for orcs.
Meaning if both players bring mages and dks to the fight slow and haste are canceled out everytime because both spells take exactly the same amount of resources and game time to get for both races.
The way lust is: as soon as ogres have lust it is safe to consider that lust will always be up on them so no there is no out-running them it is always up.
The hit point healed by heal are just nothing compared to lust I gave the math behind this earlier the spell cost exactly the same price in gold and double the time to research and does not have at all a comparable impact on the game and is harder to use properly.
But hey we said perfect micro here game is super slow both players will have the time to perfectly use all spells.
What does that give us:
6 points of mana for heal = 1 hit point
Heal:
1 point of mana = 0.16666667 hit points
For lust if you use it on an ogre attacking something the ogre has the time to land 40 hits maximum:
We are talking here 16 bonus damage per hit times 40 = 640 bonus damage for 50 mana:
Lust if the ogre lands all his punches (40):
50 mana = 640 bonus damage.
1 point of mana = 12.8 hit points
Lust if the ogre lands only one single punch:
50 mana = 16 bonus damage.
1 point of mana = 0.32 hit points
So to resume if we do not take player mistakes into account and consider a hypothetical perfect micro environment we can compare the two spells by their mana vs hit points balance ratio:
Worst case scenario for humans Lust is 80 times as efficient as heal.
Best case scenario for humans Lust is still twice as efficient as heal.
And keep in mind both spells can be used on all organic units but heal will only affect organic units while lust will also boost damages against buildings and structures or mechanical units.
Also that it will cost twice the time to research heal (200 ticks vs 100 ticks for lust).
Funny that you would mention Exhorcism is a very expensive spell (2 times more expensive than its counter parts and is slower to research too), it has a use on one single type of unit out of the 30 units the game really has which unit they already do pretty good against in most situations. Not often that a dk will escape 2 knights running at him so the plus value of exhorcism there is debatable.
So we are talking here a very very situational thing hat has a 4 mana cost per hit points balance effect.
Exhorcism:
1 point of mana = 0.25 hit points
Still is 0.25 hit points per mana.
So still not as effective as a one punch lust (0.32).
Do you seriously think any reasonable player would rather have exhorcism than lust or runes, even if it was for the same price and research time?
Same goes for mage spells vs death knights spells everything humans have orcs have but better / cheaper / faster.
Unless you can bring something to the table that is an actual fact that is measurable and comparable not just statements this wont go anywhere.
I honestly think that keeping an open mind is important, I am ok with the idea that we all could be wrong for so long, but I am not just buying opinions without facts and repeatable or calculable evidence to back them up.
Undeniable facts that would be big enough to overcome the ones I just gave you.
If no facts are given it just is a matter of belief and this usually does not go anywhere.
already proved orcs need more wood then humans tier 1 there for need more workers gold is a easier resource to get so hu can get the extra gold faster then orcs can get the extra wood ... so not needing wood in tier 1 for humans lets them tech faster ... i dont see what is so hard to understand? what do i need to prove to you do you need screen shots of how much the upgrades cost?
are you serious? so lets play a game 12v2 human vs orc, peonstop 9 peons, orc got advanced cause he need less gold for upg,
one peon will get 300 gold or 100 wood , go try it, set low sets make 1 peon 0 gold 0 wood and try get lvl 2 weapon, which race will be faster orc or human?
who are you? are u tier2 player?
