Warcraft II Forum

Warcraft II => Server.War2.ru => Topic started by: iL on February 10, 2015, 03:29:10 AM

Title: Anybody experienced in sound-recording? War2 music quality question
Post by: iL on February 10, 2015, 03:29:10 AM
* midi.zip (194.26 kB - downloaded 0 times.)
Same in WAV: 190Mb
That difference kills me...
I want to get the most perfect quality music for war2.

Does anybody know what is the source of this war2 soundtracks midi music? Is it a lossy repack from wav source or w/e?

My next idea for music: to distribute war2 with mid-format music and mid2wav converter. It will convert midi music 2 wav format and repack it into mpq archive.
Looks like the best way to keep it compatible with war2, reduce the installer size and have music in war2.

The main doubt is quailty loss while converting.

My ear for music is terrible, i never discerned good quality from bad, i also have speaker system cost $5 and don't need better.
That's why i need help in measuring the sound/music quality in war2.
We should definitely get war2 music with the best quality in midi and then lossless repack it into war2 during installation.
Title: Re: Anybody experienced in sound-recording? War2 music quality question
Post by: Nox on February 10, 2015, 05:01:00 AM
Midi is useless for WAR2, midi is the pure source of a sound or a total composition.

Midi is not even a sound, midi is only a kind of signals for a compositions, it's like the note of a composition.

It's usefull if i want to open an instrumental in share parts into a audio software for producer.

So i can have that instrumental in share parts like the drums, the piano, the violins etc, etc, it's mostly for dj or producer who want to make a mix of a sound or take independant parts of a composition.

I dont see why you want to use midi into war2 untill war2 have his own reader of midi and that sound to play the midi signals, and i really dont thing it's the case.

The only way you can save space is by finding a way to use mp3 with war2, if you cant the only second option is too compress your war2 combat into a zip file so people will save time on the DL.

PS: Also, quality is not a probleme, the quality of sound if pretty good even for now in 2015, dont forget blizzard use real orchestral and alot of high producing materials to do this game..

Your not gonna get better quality for the original sound of that game..

Trying to get better quality will mean to add plug in on your basic sound and will get bigger on the final save, and since we need to use wav, your wav gonna be the same or even higher.

The only thing you can do to give a new dimension to this game, its to create a new patch with new music, new special effect etc etc, it mean, do something totally new.
Title: Re: Anybody experienced in sound-recording? War2 music quality question
Post by: iL on February 10, 2015, 08:32:05 AM
I see, just also read about what midi is.
Good thing is midi as signals for compositions is not lossy, so it's possible to get perfect sound.

Another thing i find out is there were some sound cards or w/e hardware to recode midi to audio (like mp3 or cda).
There should be also some kind of software solutions for converting midi to sound. Not sure if software solution are worse or not.

As i know, war2bne doesn't support midi music, old war2 only did. I remember all these sound&music hardware detection before game starting...
At least, i've never seen midi inside mpq files and playing music is being stored as wav. So i think midi is not supported by war2bne.

So my idea is to include that 190 kb midi files and some kind of software to get wav from midi. Just googled and got several projects (most likely GUI, but that should be something working in batch mode also).
I hope that will receive much less than 190 MB and also allow to get wav not worse than original wav.
There are no limits for size for result wav-files making during installation because user each can select the music size he wants to get.

Not sure about mp3, war2 doesn't support it natively and it's also a lossy format. I think that's possible to distribute mp3 instead of midi and convert it to wav while installing, but we will loss some quality because of mp3 stage then.
Title: Re: Anybody experienced in sound-recording? War2 music quality question
Post by: Nox on February 10, 2015, 08:49:47 AM
I see, just also read about what midi is.
Good thing is midi as signals for compositions is not lossy, so it's possible to get perfect sound.

Another thing i find out is there were some sound cards or w/e hardware to recode midi to audio (like mp3 or cda).
There should be also some kind of software solutions for converting midi to sound. Not sure if software solution are worse or not.

As i know, war2bne doesn't support midi music, old war2 only did. I remember all these sound&music hardware detection before game starting...
At least, i've never seen midi inside mpq files and playing music is being stored as wav. So i think midi is not supported by war2bne.

So my idea is to include that 190 kb midi files and some kind of software to get wav from midi. Just googled and got several projects (most likely GUI, but that should be something working in batch mode also).
I hope that will receive much less than 190 MB and also allow to get wav not worse than original wav.
There are no limits for size for result wav-files making during installation because user each can select the music size he wants to get.

Not sure about mp3, war2 doesn't support it natively and it's also a lossy format. I think that's possible to distribute mp3 instead of midi and convert it to wav while installing, but we will loss some quality because of mp3 stage then.

In the best world you dont want a better quality, you just want to keep the best quality possible with all this convertion.

But the thing is, there no way to keep the same quality if your planning to convert it..

Wave is the pure sound without convertion, thats why the file is so loud.

But like any format, when the convertion happen, it mean compression, and there no way to dont lose quality, and its even worst from a game of 2000.

There some new format where you dont lose alot of quality and still can have a low format size.

But i dont think war2 gonna use it if they dont use mp3... Mp3 is pretty bad but still can do something good with a 96khz bitrate.

I like the idea you have about the midi to wav convertion after download..

But i dont think it's gonna work because what are you gonna convert into wav??? a signal?? and your signal gonna play what? Midi is only a signal to play Notes... If you dont have the sound your not gonna ear nothing. Your plan is great, but your wave gonna be empty.

The right thing you want to do is to link your every midi signal into your wave sound bank... or your mp3 sound bank.. or your something sound bank..

But you cant convert a signals into a free sound from nowhere lol
Title: Re: Anybody experienced in sound-recording? War2 music quality question
Post by: Nox on February 10, 2015, 08:59:36 AM
Why not 2 different dowload version?

1 with music ( wav format ) biz size download.
1 without music, fast download.

Probleme resolved.
Title: Re: Anybody experienced in sound-recording? War2 music quality question
Post by: chayliss on February 10, 2015, 11:53:41 AM
get creative....find some guys willing to PLAY the music with real instruments....don't use garbage software
Title: Re: Anybody experienced in sound-recording? War2 music quality question
Post by: Nox on February 10, 2015, 12:44:53 PM
get creative....find some guys willing to PLAY the music with real instruments....don't use garbage software

There no garage band who will reproduce orchestral of war2, im sorry but you dont know about what you talk.

Doing what you want in good quality will cost 600K easily for CREATIVE composition, musicians, records, mixing, mastering.

Just be serious man.
Title: Re: Anybody experienced in sound-recording? War2 music quality question
Post by: EviL~Ryu on February 10, 2015, 01:18:00 PM
get creative....find some guys willing to PLAY the music with real instruments....don't use garbage software

There no garage band who will reproduce orchestral of war2, im sorry but you dont know about what you talk.

Doing what you want in good quality will cost 600K easily for CREATIVE composition, musicians, records, mixing, mastering.

Just be serious man.
Maybe EQ could sing for us [emoji57]

Sent from my Motorola DynaTAC 8000X

Title: Re: Anybody experienced in sound-recording? War2 music quality question
Post by: SmurfKinG on February 10, 2015, 01:19:15 PM
actually MIDI relies solely on the hardware used. both, when originally recorded and when played.

for instance, a professional $200 soundcard will play it way way way much better than the standard included soundcard from the average person.... i.e. equinox's computer.



so, overall, i think its a good idea, just find the best software with the best reviews for midi to wav and base your decision on that only, you probably don't have a pro sound card to get the most out of a midi.


Title: Re: Anybody experienced in sound-recording? War2 music quality question
Post by: SmurfKinG on February 10, 2015, 01:23:18 PM
get creative....find some guys willing to PLAY the music with real instruments....don't use garbage software

rofl

sure
lets do a moneybomb to pay the London Orchestre Philharmonique to do us a war2 soundtrack
sounds doable huh
:P
Title: Re: Anybody experienced in sound-recording? War2 music quality question
Post by: Nox on February 10, 2015, 01:36:36 PM
actually MIDI relies solely on the hardware used. both, when originally recorded and when played.

for instance, a professional $200 soundcard will play it way way way much better than the standard included soundcard from the average person.... i.e. equinox's computer.



so, overall, i think its a good idea, just find the best software with the best reviews for midi to wav and base your decision on that only, you probably don't have a pro sound card to get the most out of a midi.




You dont know about what you talk, you can use midi from different software, the only thing is you gonna need to replace all instruments for your own one if you dont have the original one.

This is one of the major reason why midi have been created! Lol

Also, buy a soundcard will affect your independant quality, it not will affect everyone quality, this dude is a pure troll.


Title: Re: Anybody experienced in sound-recording? War2 music quality question
Post by: iL on February 10, 2015, 02:58:21 PM
But you cant convert a signals into a free sound from nowhere lol
Hm, You thoughts make sense, but i still don't understand: i just opened that midi-file by my media player and it's playing. If it's playing, then i'm sure there should be a way to save it to wav or any other format. Well, maybe i'll try that before to release the next combat version if i have time...
Why not 2 different dowload version?

1 with music ( wav format ) biz size download.
1 without music, fast download.

Probleme resolved.
Maybe you right and i should just relax and release the new FULL combat version. Also including videos and campaign briefings. People like to download big installers. The only problem is place to host such big archives. Current VPS is not so big...
But maybe midi would be possible to use, then small version will contain music, that would be good.
Title: Re: Anybody experienced in sound-recording? War2 music quality question
Post by: SmurfKinG on February 10, 2015, 03:45:29 PM
this dude is a pure troll.


this is hilarious...... coming from you......

this is the roflcopter epic comment of the week.


p.s. thought you didn't care   8)


Title: Re: Anybody experienced in sound-recording? War2 music quality question
Post by: SmurfKinG on February 10, 2015, 03:49:31 PM
in any case,  i shouldn't even be commenting on this subject cuz i don't give 2 shits about ingame music, so my opinions on this are to be disregarded from this point on.

I have always turned off background music on all RTS games when gaming online


Title: Re: Anybody experienced in sound-recording? War2 music quality question
Post by: Nox on February 10, 2015, 09:14:29 PM
But you cant convert a signals into a free sound from nowhere lol
Hm, You thoughts make sense, but i still don't understand: i just opened that midi-file by my media player and it's playing. If it's playing, then i'm sure there should be a way to save it to wav or any other format. Well, maybe i'll try that before to release the next combat version if i have time...
Why not 2 different dowload version?


Maybe your file is a GENERAL MIDI, not MIDI,  almost the same but a little bit different.

With the standart midi you need your own soundbank to allow the signal to play something.

But with general midi you dont need any soundbank because general midi have his own worldwide soundback of 128 instruments if im right, that mean every software or hardware build on a general midi mode will have the same 128 instruments, so if i create a general midi from my house and i send it to you, you will ear it if you have a software included general midi, Thats an old format people where using in ''90'' so maybe thats the case right here. The only thing is i dint know yet media player can play general midi. Can you send me that file i will told you exactly what it is.
Title: Re: Anybody experienced in sound-recording? War2 music quality question
Post by: iL on February 10, 2015, 11:55:25 PM
Maybe your file is a GENERAL MIDI, not MIDI,  almost the same but a little bit different.

Hm, so, there are 2 different midi formats exist? I didn't know that.
Can you send me that file i will told you exactly what it is.

It's a war2 soundtracks archive attached to this message: http://forum.war2.ru/index.php/topic,366.msg4351.html#msg4351 (http://forum.war2.ru/index.php/topic,366.msg4351.html#msg4351)
Title: Re: Anybody experienced in sound-recording? War2 music quality question
Post by: Nox on February 11, 2015, 12:42:06 AM
That's right, i just listen  * midi.zip 194.26 kB!

And that's General Midi file.

I want you to Listen closely ** W2_H1 ** the first file of your ** midi.zip 194.26 kB** and after i want you to listen this!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bz4INLEmh_I#ws (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bz4INLEmh_I#ws)

As you can see thats the same song, same melody, same tempo, but in reality, every instruments of your midi file are replace for the General Midi one, thats not the same instruments of the original sound of youtube, instruments are different, it sound more robotic then the original one.

Maybe it's look too sound better, but in reality if you find the real wave version of youtube, it will sound better then the youtube one.

Now i need to know where you find this file? Is that an official release from blizzard or someone made this midi file himself? Because if it's an official release from blizzard, it probably mean war2 support general midi..

And in that case you probably not even need a converter wave... Maybe your midi file is suppose to link up directly with the game at this point.



Title: Re: Anybody experienced in sound-recording? War2 music quality question
Post by: iL on February 11, 2015, 01:33:32 AM
And that's General Midi file.

I want you to Listen closely ** W2_H1 ** the first file of your ** midi.zip 194.26 kB** and after i want you to listen this!
I see, i'll listen it when i be at home and try to hear the difference...
As you can see thats the same song, same melody, same tempo, but in reality, every instruments of your midi file are replace for the General Midi one, thats the not same instruments of the original sound of youtube, instruments are different, it sound more robotic then the original one.
I see, looks like not proper conversion, just almost similar. So using this midi is not perfect for our purposes...
Now i need to know where you find this file?
Not sure, that's a question to Teron-Gorefiend, but here's the readme file inside archive:
Quote
Ripped by Keyszer Soze using 4 combined methods.
At least that's not an official midi from blizzard...
There is no midi inside war2bne archives, i'll check that again, but looks like it doesn't support it. Of course that would be the easiest solution.
I'll also try to extract "proper" midi from old war2td version to see what is that...
Title: Re: Anybody experienced in sound-recording? War2 music quality question
Post by: Nox on February 11, 2015, 02:01:02 AM
Tell me more about mpq, how work the link between sound and action? Is that waves in a folder and the game link up with every title sound file.

Exemple:

HumanSword.wav
OrcSword.wav
Gryphon.wav
Dragons.wav

etc, etc.
Title: Re: Anybody experienced in sound-recording? War2 music quality question
Post by: Nox on February 11, 2015, 02:21:58 AM
I see, looks like not proper conversion, just almost similar. So using this midi is not perfect for our purposes...

I just understand what you mean Lol.....

But no, you can use that if you want, but the fact is you made a thread about answer and ill give you, these General midi files are cool and OK... But not much compare the original one in the games... Your midi files sound like a karaoke or something, the original one sound GREATFUL and something else.

You can use that midi files if you want... But i dont see why your always crying about size in 2015....

Title: Re: Anybody experienced in sound-recording? War2 music quality question
Post by: iL on February 11, 2015, 03:00:16 AM
Tell me more about mpq, how work the link between sound and action? Is that waves in a folder and the game link up with every title sound file.
Yes, each wav-file is attached to it's action in game.
So each action is a single wav-file inside mpq.
Each soundtrack in war2bne is also a single wav-file inside mpq.

I just understand what you mean Lol.....

But no, you can use that if you want, but the fact is you made a thread about answer and ill give you, these General midi files are cool and OK... But not much compare the original one in the games... Your midi files sound like a karaoke or something, the original one sound GREATFUL and something else.
Sure, i can use it, but i don't like to get music different from original... The idea of combat is to keep the original war2 atmosphere. Maybe i never hear a difference in original and this midi music, but others can.
Of course i can just use that midi, but i'd prefer to use something closer to original...

You can use that midi files if you want... But i dont see why your always crying about size in 2015....
Partly that's just a habit i think. I spent much time and forces to make it as small as possible...
Partly that's a problem to store big files on my hosting. It's total capacity is just 8Gb and it's 90% full. It's not easy to put yet another 500Mb file there... It's a big difference between 50 and 250 Mb for me then.
Title: Re: Anybody experienced in sound-recording? War2 music quality question
Post by: Nox on February 11, 2015, 03:30:17 AM
I understand for your hosting ok.

If you take a new wav rename it as the same one of any one in the mpq file and replace it... Did your new sound will play for this linked action instead the old one.
Title: Re: Anybody experienced in sound-recording? War2 music quality question
Post by: iL on February 11, 2015, 03:43:10 AM
If you take a new wav rename it as the same one of any one in the mpq file and replace it... Did your new sound will play for this linked action instead the old one.
Sure, that is how it worked before for combat. Several useless wavs have been replaced to "empty" wav with 0 length and no sound.
If you just delete wav and the game try to play it - it will crash.
You can also change any wavs to anything you want: localized sounds, sounds for another game, etc. Just make sure your new wav has supported bitrate or w/e. War2 supports just several options...
Title: Re: Anybody experienced in sound-recording? War2 music quality question
Post by: Nox on February 11, 2015, 03:47:54 AM
Maybe if you take all these wav is possible to make them lower size, but it will lose small quality, nothing important, gonna be literally new waves, same sound, but a little bit lower quality, dont even think we can made a difference.

was is the supported bitrate?

And what is that actual bitrate?
Title: Re: Anybody experienced in sound-recording? War2 music quality question
Post by: iL on February 11, 2015, 05:15:42 AM
Maybe if you take all these wav is possible to make them lower size, but it will lose small quality, nothing important, gonna be literally new waves, same sound, but a little bit lower quality, dont even think we can made a difference.
Sure, and it already works so: MPQ format supports lossy compression for wav-files with manually selected ratio from 0 to 9.
Original blizzard MPQs already distributed with some compress ratio, otherwise the whole sound data would be about 2x (or probably 5x) bigger.
I used some compromise values to keep sound good and to reduce the total size of archive.
That's why war2 is being already distributed by blizzard with some kind of lossy wavs, so original midi music could be better in case of using perfect sound card...
And what is that actual bitrate?
I don't remember, something like 16 or 32 kbps, at least i'd wonder if something like 196 or 256 will work...
Title: Re: Anybody experienced in sound-recording? War2 music quality question
Post by: Lambchops on September 19, 2017, 10:42:30 AM
Just noticed this old thread. Here's some info if anyone is still interested.

MIDI (Musical Instrument Digital Interface) was basically developed as a way for (piano type) digital keyboards to interface with computers. MIDI files are not sound files.

The best analogy for MIDI files is sheet music. They contain a list of what note to play on what instruments when and for how long. The sounds are generated by whatever sound hardware you are playing them on (as SmurfKing pointed out above).

So if you record a wav file from a MIDI file on very good hardware, you will get a better sound replaying that wav file on a lower quality sound hardware than playing the original MIDI file on the low quality hardware.

Of course the wav file contains much more information than the MIDI file and will be considerably larger.

Compression such as MP3 is a seperate subject, and is only relevent for the wav file, which contains actual audio, whereas the MIDI file does not. Audio compression is just a size/quality trade off. Mild compression is a good thing and provides exellent audio quality, however if you try to squeeze it too much it will sound aweful.

Just a thought .... but back in 1996 everything was 8-bit audio. IIRC the first 16-bit soundblaster cards came out a little while after this. It may be that someone with a modern VHQ audio setup might be able to produce really good audio recordings from an original MIDI source that sound better than anything they could produce back in 1996.

... and of course there is that awesome live orchestral version on youtube somewhere.