Warcraft II Forum
Warcraft II => Server.War2.ru => Topic started by: xXxSmeagolxXx on October 12, 2015, 12:18:08 PM
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I am not doubting EF makes a BNE game play out better nor trying to start up another troll debate. Just showing that in some games people can control units just fine on fastest. This is an RPG 1 Peon vs 296 grunts that charge until all are killed or they kill your peon. Example:
http://youtu.be/lgS2JZxy9Dc (http://youtu.be/lgS2JZxy9Dc)
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Fun lookin' map.
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That's pretty limited micro. It's just a single unit that you don't even move...
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It is fun but it can be very frustrating too. It's hard to click that fast, I make it look easier than it is. Also if you misclick on one of them in some spots your peon will move and you have to move back to your original spot during the chaos.
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Try it Blid I'll send you the map. You also can't misclick much because you will move. I killed 133 per minute in that video without missing barely at all. Not many could beat this map without a lot of time put into it. Also you don't move the peon(unless you misclick and have to move back to your spot) but you have to click each unit as it's charging so it takes precise clicking and getting into a rhythm of clicking, also have to have some decent APM.
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I didn't say it was easy, just that it only encompasses a very small portion of what unit control is considered to be.
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Yes it isn't a full army of unit control I agree. I was just showing that there are games that are played on fastest and can be played at the same level or better than EF. RPGs are always played on fastest from my experience. Also a lot of customs people only play on F. It's just a cool video to show hyper fast precision clicking to kill a horde of units lol.
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I play RPG's on EF. It makes way more sense imo. Some of them I can't even imagine playing on fastest, like Star-shaped Arrows.
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The hardest RPG I ever played and beat is The Lost City. You get 1 Alleria with 5 hp and 9 range vs over 700 units including 60 hp cats and mages that kill with a single fireball if you touch them. I've beaten so many RPGs over the years many of them with QUICK{hR} and they were all on fastest. There could be some where EF is better I guess but not the ones I've played. Fastest takes quicker reactions and makes it more fun to me.
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I play RPG's on EF. It makes way more sense imo. Some of them I can't even imagine playing on fastest, like Star-shaped Arrows.
Your missing out on all the fun if you play a RPG on EF lol....
Sent from my Motorola DynaTAC 8000X using Tapatalk
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Nope.
Try to beat starshaped arrows. There's a download link here but it doesn't work:
http://war2.warcraft.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=304885&highlight=arrows#304885 (http://war2.warcraft.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=304885&highlight=arrows#304885)
Bet you can't beat it. Bet you can't even download it.
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I have Star Shaped Arrows in one of my folders somewhere. I've never really played it though or at least never tried to beat it. I could give it a shot with QUICK{hR} he is the best RPG pard I've ever had. There may very well be RPGs that are played on EF but they are the minority.
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Every RPG would be better on EF. Like, it makes even more sense to play RPGs on EF than it makes to play GOW on EF. Unless you got some shit map where you have to hack enemies or buildings hundreds of times to kill them.
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I will never agree with you on this Blid. I'll agree with you EF takes more skill or makes the game better in GOW/BNEs because of as you all put it "time to plan". You need no time to plan in an RPG. It's purely about unit control and killing all the enemies. You don't have to worry about pulling miners or choppers and balancing building/creating units with fighting. Slowing an RPG down doesn't hold the same argument for slowing it down to increase the skill like GOW in my opinion. Playing RPGs at the fastest speed makes it a better game and makes you react faster and use better unit control.
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. Fastest takes quicker reactions and makes it more fun to me.
Again, you're forgetting that there is a PHYSICAL barrier called "Network Latency" that effects ALL games regardless. You can only speed up a game so much before network latency becomes a problem. This problem becomes obvious when playing on speeds at EF or above in War2. Anyone that says otherwise............ is just plain stupid. You cannot debate a fact. So no amount of "reflexes" will fix the issue no matter what you "think" is going on. Just because it appears like you're overcoming this barrier, doesnt mean you ACTUALLY are.
There is no debate to be had. EF simply has better unit control then Fastest. Period. Why? Because of the latency issue that is abundantly obvious to the rest of us, especially those who have been playing these speeds for decades now. And Faster has better unit control than Even Faster, and Fast as better unit control than Faste.................. do you see the pattern forming here yet? I will assume not since you seem to think that you can control units on F just as well, if not better, than EF. It's all an illusion man, you're just going to have to surrender the fact that Fastest does NOT have unit control that can compete with anything other than itself (fastest). No speed has unit control that can compete with another speed unless it's vs a faster speed than itself such as EF vs F where EF has the better unit control.
The only "debate" that can be had is at what speed can UC latency be tolerated enough such that it wont impact game skill. The answer to that CAN be debated, and its of the opinion of pretty much every veteran player that EF is that speed (self included after having considered all technical barriers). In the opinion of Blizzard, that speed is the Faster speed and something which I would NEVER argue because Faster clearly has better UC than EF hands down, not even debatable.
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The FACT remains lance 95% or more of RPGs can be beaten on FASTEST. So your fact still fails to prove shit in this case. If I beat an RPG on EF sure it takes skill if I then beat it on Fastest it takes more skill, that is also a fact. You are talking about latency but when an RPG can be beaten on both EF and F the F one would take more skill, jeez not hard to figure out.
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You're talking about how there's latency on fastest yet the same maps can beaten on Fastest that are beaten on EF. So what you're saying is by playing an RPG on Fastest we are also dealing with latency you are not, I guess we are just that good. If a map can be beaten on EF and F the F is going to be harder because of reaction times and not having all day to click on their units, and by your own words we deal with some FACT that latency makes it harder to control our units, I guess we are just gods. Lmao.
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I will never agree with you on this Blid. I'll agree with you EF takes more skill or makes the game better in GOW/BNEs because of as you all put it "time to plan". You need no time to plan in an RPG. It's purely about unit control and killing all the enemies. You don't have to worry about pulling miners or choppers and balancing building/creating units with fighting. Slowing an RPG down doesn't hold the same argument for slowing it down to increase the skill like GOW in my opinion. Playing RPGs at the fastest speed makes it a better game and makes you react faster and use better unit control.
In good RPGs, it's entirely a game of micro/unit control. There is literally no macro (town building, resource gathering) and you generally only have a single unit. With a slower speed, you can have better control of that unit. You can dodge stuff better, take your shots better, and so on. I mean, obviously so, because the speed is reduced. I don't know why you wouldn't want that unless the map is so easy you don't need it.
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Take this example then:
15MBit Satelite connection (Assume this is War2 being online) vs
15MBit Cable Internet (Assume this is War2 being played locally)
Can you tell me which one is better, and why? If you cant understand the analogy, then you're not yet capable of understanding why a Vet player would say that EF (or slower speeds) are the speeds in which skill requirement INCREASES. You're saying that skill increases the higher the latency gets and that just isnt the right answer because you're forgetting (or perhaps ignoring) the physical barriers. Harder != "IMPOSSIBLE" because it's impossible for Fastest speed units to respond as quickly as EF unit response. That CANNOT be debated because of the network latency problems that every single game ever created has and that issue will never go away. Ever. As technology increases, the latency may be lowered, but it's never going to reach a point where Latency = 0. Even Light has latency as proven by the fact that it can be bent by gravity. And currently technology cannot travel faster than the speed of light (Fiber travels close to speed of light)
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Lance: Slowing something down and being able to control it doesn't mean it can't be done on the faster speed. Sure you can control a unit better when it's moving slower because you have more time and there is less latency as you say. That doesn't mean the same map and unit movement cannot be done on Fastest. Play some RPGs on fastest and ef and you will see playing it on EF makes it easier.
Blid: When I play RPGs I do it purely for the challenge. QUICK{hR} and I when not able to get games will play the newest RPG I've found or made over and over until we beat it. The ones I make they get harder and harder as we complete one. The challenge to us is to increase the difficulty of each RPG and the dodging, taking shots, and so on has to be done at the fastest speed on the spot, that's how we like it. Some of the RPGs we have beaten have taken months to finally beat. Some RPGs I have beaten: Archer Swat, Archer Assassinz, all the Dodge The Cats, The Dark Cave!, Khadgar Detectives, The Icy Cave, The Icy Cave 2, The Lost City!, Ranged Warriors, The Icy Road, Quest To Smaug, Quest To Mordor, The Infernal Gate, and many more. I play RPGs for a good challenge, I like the razor fast reactions and UC needed to play them on Fastest.
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So let me get this straight, you're of the opinion that as latency increase, skill requirement needs to increase? Try playing War2 on pkt:50 and then come back and tell me that skill increases after your units simply dont do what you tell them to do when you tell them to do it. Because that is your argument, that skill requirements increase as latency increases and that couldnt be further from the truth. The only thing that increases with latcency................... is time. Time isnt a skill nor can it be changed/challenged. Any real War2 player will be able to tell you that their units do not respond in "time" when the game speed is increased. This doesnt make it harder, it makes things IMPOSSIBLE to be done as efficiently as they know they should be done. That is the problem with the EF vs F community. The F community doesnt realize that things truly can be done more efficiently on slower speeds. This is also why an EF player will ALWAYS be able to out play an F player no matter what the speeds is. Because the EF player is noticing the time difference between actions and will be able to tell you when something is due to latency and when something is due to skill. Do not think that making things faster makes things harder, because it doesnt. If you tried to increase war2 beyond Fastest, using your logic you would think it becomes harder simply because things are happening faster. But that wouldnt be true because its not the speed thats making it harder, its the latency, or lack of being able to control your units, that is making it harder. But then at that point you cant use the term "harder" because it's technically incorrect. You have to then use the term "impossible" because you cant change time. So if you swap the term "harder" with "impossible" you may begin to see the light as to why we are all saying that skill requirement INCREASES as latency DECREASES. You're argument is that as you slow things down, you have more time. THATS WRONG. Time CANNOT be changed. You cant increase time nor can you decrease it. But what you can increase/decrease is a person's skill at doing something. Once you remove the time element (latency) you're left with just 1 thing. The person's skill. So the slower something goes, the more of a person's skill can be revealed.
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Your argument is just as ridiculous to me Lance. You are claiming that there is latency on the Fastest speed but that EF takes more skill. Anyone with any sort of brain can see slowing something down will make it easier latency aside. So yes slowing your units down and having more time to react will take more skill only because you have more time. Now for the latency, you are claiming there is less latency on EF which I believe, yet it is still possible to beat map X on fastest with that latency that could be beaten on EF without it. So by still being able to beat it with latency and faster you have the deck stacked against you yet we still play and win lol.
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I'm not going to argue with you it's easy to understand. People can make the exact same unit movements on F they can on EF. Just because it is easier on EF DOES NOT mean that makes it more skillful. You once again mention jacking up Warcraft 2's speed beyond what the game is capable of that doesn't even play into the debate because its a mod, but yes it would get much harder until the point it would be impossible. Slowing something down to retarded speeds wouldn't prove your point any more than speeding it up. IF I slowed Warcraft 2 down to a virtual crawl it would just be boring and stupid wouldn't make the game any better. The only good point you really have is latency, yet you can't deny the fact any unit movement done on EF can be replicated on F. You are biased in this argument in that you only play EF and probably only ever have. There is latency on Fastest great doesn't mean the same unit movements can't be done that are done on EF and the people who will do them in RPGs will do them at a quicker speed and with less time to react. This will be my final post on this subject, play RPGs on Fastest then on EF you will soon see EF is pointless in RPGs and is for the short bus people who can't handle making precise movements on fastest. That is all.
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any unit movement done on EF can be replicated on F
This is inaccurate and why you dont get it yet. You cannot replicate (produce/copy/manufacture/modify time). A unit on EF responds sooner than it will on F. Period. Thats not even debatable. Why would you try to say you can replicate an impossible feat? Because you cant. It's IMPOSSIBLE because time cannot be modified. You cant argue that F units respond just as fast as EF units. BECAUSE THEY DONT, and the technical reason for why that is, has been laid out for you in terms that I think even an unborn child could understand.
You cannot equate a faster speed with higher skill because skill is not based in time. The only thing you increase with speed is the time between actions (latency). Since time cannot be changed, you therefore cannot say "it becomes harder" because time doesnt get "harder". It's either possible or not possible. 0 or 1. There is no 0.5 or 0.89 in time like there is with light. Time either is, or it isnt. There is no in between :) (well, that we are aware of yet anyway, and I'm of the opinion that there is no in between).
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I'm only going to respond because you asked a question and misinterpret what I mean. If you can kill 100 grunts with a peon in EF you can kill 100 grunts in F. If you can make a fireball on a charging group in EF you can do that same fireball in F. If you can avoid a catapult until all of it's hp is done in EF you can do it in F. I am not talking about the actual speed at which it is done, I am talking about the end result. Any unit movement done on EF can be replicated on F by a good player. The units do the same thing just on a slower speed in EF giving you more time to execute that movement.
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The units do the same thing just on a slower speed in EF giving you more time to execute that movement.
Again you actually have it BACKWARDS. If you move a unit in EF, it's actually going to move FASTER than it would with Fastest. Just because it gets from point A to point B on F doesnt mean it reacted faster. It just means that the animation completed quicker and animations have nothing at all to do with skill. If you were to put 2 machines side by side, one on EF the other on F and then click a spot on the map simultanously, the EF peon would move first. This means that things actually happen FASTER on the slower speeds which is completely the opposite of what you're trying to say. You're saying that things happen slower. When in reality, they do just the opposite.
You are mixing up Animation speeds with skill and we all know that animation speeds dont effect anything other than visual perception. (Keyword being PERCEPTION which is why I say it's all an illusion)
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Let me be honest with you Lance, I don't give a fuck. Not even in the slightest, you know the map I just posted that I beat on F. Took me over an hour to get that video on F. I just beat the map on EF in about 10 minutes. It was also ridiculous in that you have to wait for each chop to finish before clicking the next unit, making it actually less skillful as a rhythm is harder to get into. The time I had to click each unit and respond to shit was sad though and made it easy. Anyone who plays RPGs for competitiveness knows slowing it down makes it easier. Feel free to tell me how RPGs on EF make it harder though when I just tried it and it made it easier. Also I knew this as its a pointless argument slowing down the computer isn't making it harder lmao.
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I think the point here is that many of us have transcended the point at which the game animation perception has an impact. You havent quite jumped that hurdle yet. In otherwords, you've not yet "seen the light" lmao. We're able to see into the future where as you're still stuck on what the screen is showing you and you cant see past what is handed to you. Just do the math and you'll eventually see the light and then you'll be able to prove things (such as the 2 computer theory) without actually having to do the experiment yourself because you know that fact is fact. I can tell you what would happen without actually doing it. This is why I dont need to "play a map" to test things out because I already know all the math behind the scenes and I can calculate it without actually having to do it myself. You on the otherhand are trying to prove things by actually trying it out yourself and seeing if your guess is right. But you're always going to guess wrong because you dont yet understand the basic concepts behind whats actually happening on the screen.
Just because I know the math though, doesnt make the game any less fun (slowing it down for example). It's because of this math that things ARE fun. War2 is perfect :)
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Here is how I know I'm right: Just played the RPG in the video on fastest took me 1-2 hours to beat. Played same map on EF took me at most 20 minutes. It depends on the game you are playing and RPGs is a game where fastest will make it harder. GOW is a different map, with different strategies, and different objectives than RPGs. I still really don't give a shit I'm not going to take twice as long in a game and make RPGs easier for me because EF is some golden speed.
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EF vs F isnt a question of one being better than the other. It's a question of which has less impact on skill. The answer is that the slower the speed, the less impact it will have on skill. So then you have to measure just how much of a jump between each speed has on skill. If you were to look at it on a graph, here is what it would look like:
F: 10
EF: 8
Faster: 7
Fast: 6
Normal: 5
Slow: 4
Slower: 3
Even Slower: 2
Slowest: 1
Local: 0
Now that you can see "The Math" behind what I'm talking about, which speed sticks out to you as having the greatest "difference". So the "golden" speed is in fact EF as you can see by the numbers. It's not an opinion, it's just a fact.
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Lol I guess fuck my idea of not responding okay here's another response. So you say it "Impacts skill" so people who can control units at the very fastest speed which is "impacting" their skill are actually at the highest level for being able to play so well against a curve that is affecting them. Video games are about reflexes and movement just as much as strategy. So what by playing at 1 speed I'm playing some extremely skillful game? Lmao wrong you might as well play a board game that requires no movements to affect the game.
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That is correct, the faster a speed is, the more it MASKS your actual skill within the game and that chart shows you just how much of a mask each "speed" would have if played online over Latency. The only way to remove that mask completely is to play locally which is rather pointless. So we have to pick a speed that has the least amount of impact on "skill" (AKA Latency reduction) without making things so slow that its unbearable. The best speed for that is clearly EF since the next jump up is 2x worse than if you were to jump down to Faster.
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Play RPGs or dare I say it PBALL gasp or other customs on EF and you will see it is not a universal speed though. Each game holds it's own mechanics and objectives that the speed plays into it. To say every game on Warcraft 2 is best at EF I do not agree with it. GOW and BNE's I am not questioning EF can make a better game in that. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.
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The difference here is that you're working under the assumption that Network Latency doesnt effect a game. But thats just wrong. It's real. So real that the DoD has been working on ways to reduce it using a method called "Dead Reckoning". You simply cannot say that one map plays differently on a different speed because that simply is NOT the case. If it's easy on one speed, its just as easy on any other speed. The only difference is the network latency between each speed is different. The biggest difference in latency compared to all other speeds is Fastest, it has the WORST latency of all of the speeds. So no matter how much skill you think X map takes, the lower the speed, the more of your own skill you will be able to exert on that map. So if a map plays "best" on Fastest, it's because that map is so easy that you have to introduce impossibilities into it by increasing the network latency. And how do you do that? Simple, increase the game's speed because that effects the game's network latency as well. You're working under an illusion if you think game speed has anything to do with how hard/easy a map is.
So any map that "plays better" on fastest is also "an easy map", so easy that you have to make it impossible for your units to respond correctly, otherwise, it becomes to easy. So this is why you are experiencing "well its to easy on EF". It's not the map nor the speed. It's the network latency that is increasing your ability to show off your skill that is making it "to easy".
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Let me go over what I think of this debate: BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH . Also Don't care Don't care Don't care Don't care Don't care Don't care Don't care Don't care Don't care Don't care Don't care Don't care Don't care Don't care Don't care Don't care Don't care Don't care Don't care Don't care Don't care Don't care Don't care Don't care. The fact remains Water Knights, PBall, RPGs, and others would just be a joke on EF. It would contribute to the game being much more predictable and being able to execute shit much easier. I expect a response because you keep on responding even though I've showed twice now I don't care you can't even agree to disagree so let me quote your next post I'm sure will come. " BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH". =D
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Well, you tried to have a post called "Perfect Unit Control On Fastest". Now that it's been proven that simply is not the case, you're putting your head in the sand and acting like it's all non-sense because you were proven wrong. Such a statement "Perfect Unit Control On Fastest" is about as far from the truth as you can possible get. And I wouldnt want anyone reading it to think it's actually factual when in fact, its completely false. 0 != 1. Period.
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You haven't proved shit. You've even admitted that playing against a curve and playing the same way you could on EF would be harder. You can make points and convince yourself of them doesn't mean you proved shit. I made a post showing perfect unit control on Fastest and that is exactly what the video shows. Did the same map on EF and beat it 10x faster. Oh geez you proved so much.
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im sorry but im not seeing this perfect unit control? all you showed here is that u know how to click your mouse
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What you did or didnt do doesnt negate the fact that a statement of "Perfect Unit Control On Fastest" is completely false. The only thing your videos prove is that you're not good at war2 UC yet :)
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So any map that "plays better" on fastest is also "an easy map", so easy that you have to make it impossible for your units to respond correctly, otherwise, it becomes to easy.
Yeah, this. If it's too easy on EF, then in my eyes, that just makes it an easy map. Handicapping yourself by playing at an obscene speed may make it more challenging, sure... but I'd rather have units I can control better, and just play a more difficult map. In RPGs more than anything.
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Also I might have to add this yet again I DON'T CARE. You can sit here all day and hold to your biases that EF plays better in any map seriously cool play some EF. I have agreed with you that EF can make a game of GOW a better game(not even being a GOW player). You sit there and speak about games like PBalls and RPGs(not being a PBall or RPG player), and that have been played on fastest FOREVER and that people have no problem completing the maps and executing movements on. If it became a problem that people weren't able to complete maps or play competitively on high I guess I'd agree with you, won't happen.
LT: Did i get hit by their grunts? No. Did I kill all 296 units. Yes. That would be the definition of "perfect" also flawless would fit, I did not make one error and killed 296 units with 1 unit. There you have it.
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Also Blid feel free to beat that RPG on EF, just because I did it doesn't make it easy. It was still a challenge it just became easier on EF.
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wow i feel sorry for you if you think thats what unit control is.. and u did make a mistake u mis clicked and ur peon moved so there goes ur theory of perfect unit control. but ill let you and lance go back to this never ending argument
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Lol I feel bad for you for talking about something you know nothing about. Play that map and try to beat those 296 grunts it's not easy. Unit control is just that controlling units and moving is not a flaw if i don't get hit. If you feel bad for people over video games you probably have some form of autism bud.
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my mistake that i have empathy for someone who doesnt know how to play warcraft 2. I guess i must have some form of autism because of that. thanks for pointing that out
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UC != clicking the same spot on a map over an over as fast as possible. That is called APM. They are different. APM != UC. What you showed is that you have a below average APM and absolutely no UC at all.
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Also Blid feel free to beat that RPG on EF, just because I did it doesn't make it easy. It was still a challenge it just became easier on EF.
You call that an RPG? It's just a clicking game. Like a dumbed down whack-a-mole.
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I actually do "know Warcraft" you are just making assumptions. I have played Warcraft 2 since 1998, I played BNEs and the lot from 1998-2002. That I choose to play a different type of map within a video game has nothing to do with empathy. If you are so emotionally messed up that video games mean that much to you, I guess sure you can feel empathy for me. I do not want to be good at BNE's or play them I have no desire, RPGs and PBall are the map I play and it's all a video game. The point of a video game is to relax and have fun. Feel some empathy for the kids who are starving and countless people dying in wars, sad fucker lol.
Blid: It's more of a challenge map or "race" map like from the old days of Warcraft 2. In those days people would make maps to challenge each other and test their skills. Most RPGs I play are much more complex, but yes by the simplest definition it does fit as an RPG.
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No it's not an RPG at all. anwyay epic unit control is when there's a battle of like 10 grunts vs 10 grunts and you're grabbing individual grunts in your army and moving them to improve your positioning, and you're selecting certain units and having them focus on certain enemies, and you're pulling back certain men when they're close to dead so that they don't die, and you keep micromanaging that stuff through the whole battle. Clicking on a never-ending stream of grunts is really really insanely basic unit control.
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man smeagol.... your wealth of war2 knowledge is just so vast! i can tell by reading this thread!
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No it's not an RPG at all. anwyay epic unit control is when there's a battle of like 10 grunts vs 10 grunts and you're grabbing individual grunts in your army and moving them to improve your positioning, and you're selecting certain units and having them focus on certain enemies, and you're pulling back certain men when they're close to dead so that they don't die, and you keep micromanaging that stuff through the whole battle. Clicking on a never-ending stream of grunts is really really insanely basic unit control.
Exactly. That is UC. But you cannot have UC if your shit doesnt do what you tell it to WHEN you tell it to (thus the network latency issue). UC is DEGRADED when you increase the speed because it also increases the latency. How can you have good UC if you dont even know what is stopping you from having it in the first place?
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I challenge anyone to make a video of them beating it then. I'm not saying it can't be done or someone won't do it but it is not easy at all. Doing something extremely difficult with a unit would fall into epic unit control as well. You can say what your definition of epic until control is, but can you beat the same map I did in the same way? If the answer is no then I guess I have more epic unit control with that unit. 10 grunts vs 10 grunts is a different skill and making a comparison is just apples and oranges they both take a unique UC skill.
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I can only think of 2 types of maps that are probably better suited for Fastest
1) archers
2) that type of map where you can pump out 10 units per second from buildings.. just click the shit out of it and you have like 50 mages in 5 seconds. (which is one of the dumbest sub-games of war2 ever invented)
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There are PBalls with barracks with 0 build time so your point applies directly to that. Seriously though I'm bored as hell with this thread, and people who play certain customs on fastest are going to continue to regardless of this post.
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No, they're all going to convert to EF speed BNE games because of this thread, now that Lance explained about the latency thing.
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Haha that would be ideal for you guys Blid =D. When everyone around me stops playing F I guess my only option if EF huh? Haha.
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Thats the evil plan stan. You must be forced to see the light since you cant see it on your own :D
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Hahaha I like it better when we're getting along Lance. You seem like a pretty cool guy, these forum debates on types of maps and speeds all seem rather pointless to me. We could much better be using our time discussing things on the server, other things on Warcraft 2 of importance, or discussing Warcraft 2 and some of the great things about it. I guess in a way I did kind of ask for it by sharing a video about fastest, but I was thinking of your quote from the one thread about thinking you were controlling your units to maximum when you aren't. Anyway hopefully from here out there will be no need for pointless debating where no one convinces anyone of anything. :) DUN DUN DUN we'll see though :P .
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my mistake that i have empathy for someone who doesnt know how to play warcraft 2. I guess i must have some form of autism because of that. thanks for pointing that out
You sound like one of us with each passing day.
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i just watched the video the first time... i honestly don't see how anyone with a decent mouse wouldn't get all 296 grunts within their first 10 tries.
i also don't see how anyone would even bother playing this map 10 times.
i feel like smeagol is just trolling. he has to be. this stuff he's saying/posting can't be for real.
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You are a like a little kid you make claims that are bullshit. I'm done debating and especially with you, white trash trailer park puke. How's that? No one can beat it in 10 times and if they do it's a fluke. Beat it in 10 times an record it. God you're a piece of shit TK, go cry on some other topics like usual.
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You worked hard at getting me to not like you on here TK as did Swift. You can kiss my ass it's a video game and I get sick of your baseless claims. You still didn't 1v1 and you haven't produced a video of this map beating it nor in 10 tries, suck my dick you know you wanna.
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Also I read this forum for several months before joining. The main reason I didn't join is I didn't want to lower myself to your level TK. This forum is filled with NOT ALL but a lot of retards. For real like pure retards like you and Swift. You guys take the shit on here so serious, even the ones who don't play anymore some of them take this game so seriously. You are mostly a bunch of trolls ,and besides Blid and Lance everyone I've debated with were pure trolls for the most part. The main reason I made an account was to defend myself from EQ on that one post, but the forum is good to advertise tournaments. TK you can make all the claims you want, beat the map don't care. The norm on this forum just seems to spout some bullshit whether it's based in fact or not and that's just fine because you've got a big group to back you. 1v1 me TK or you are a worthless little worm(this is true anyway). Anyway just thought I'd tell what I thought of probably 3/4 of the people on this forum. Talk about Warcraft 2 and get over yourself and the video game you play. I enjoy PBall because it's the type of video game I enjoy, I could care less what you believe in just thought I'd give it a go with the attitude towards PBall on here. Now go fuck yourself TK and any of you other losers who take this so seriously and forget we're here to discuss a video game lmao.
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What I found tricky about that map where you kill all the grunts is I can right click the grunts faster than the peon attacks. I didn't try the map enough times to figure it out, whether if I click on every single grunt will I kill them all, or will the attack speed of the peon be too slow and some of my commands will get skipped... I think some would get skipped so you have to like wait for the peon a bit to make your attacks, but you can get ahead a little bit maybe? I don't know. I died after killing like 10-15 grunts and after 4-5 tries I didn't want to play anymore because it wasn't worth the bother.
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Smeagol w/ the triple post lol.
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What pisses me off is when strictly custom newbs come on here and act like they have any clue what they're talking about because they honestly believe they understand the complexity of this game after getting good at a few NEWB MAPS with little complexity.
I feel comfortable saying this because I know I have a very deep understanding of the game. I'm not the best, but I'm damn good when I'm peaked out... and veven when i have not played in a year and can't even beat van (he blows) I still understand the game the same as if I were peaked. I've played it for 17 years
I've went through periods where I primarily played gowbne fastest, periods of archers, periods of kort, periods of bhg, and even a period of DK2 and within a week or two of playing ALL of them I was nearly as good or better than whoever was considered the "best" in that map/speed/resource
So yeah, until u can go to gow ef, pos F, gowbne fastest, or any other map and compete with top players in all of them within a week or two don't run around here saying fastest takes more skill than EF, or pball takes a lot of skill... because neither are true, u just don't have the experience to know what you're saying is complete BS
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What pisses me off is when strictly custom newbs come on here and act like they have any clue what they're talking about because they honestly believe they understand the complexity of this game after getting good at a few NEWB MAPS with little complexity.
I feel comfortable saying this because I know I have a very deep understanding of the game. I'm not the best, but I'm damn good when I'm peaked out... and veven when i have not played in a year and can't even beat van (he blows) I still understand the game the same as if I were peaked. I've played it for 17 years
I've went through periods where I primarily played gowbne fastest, periods of archers, periods of kort, periods of bhg, and even a period of DK2 and within a week or two of playing ALL of them I was nearly as good or better than whoever was considered the "best" in that map/speed/resource
So yeah, until u can go to gow ef, pos F, gowbne fastest, or any other map and compete with top players in all of them within a week or two don't run around here saying fastest takes more skill than EF, or pball takes a lot of skill... because neither are true, u just don't have the experience to know what you're saying is complete BS
[emoji23][emoji23]
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U come on here saying dumb shit around guys that have been playing this game for almost 2 decades and have experience in every single map/speed/red .. they're going to know immediately "he just said something really dumb" .. a few of us are going to let you know its dumb.. some will keep quiet sure but even they know its dumb and has no merit.
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What I found tricky about that map where you kill all the grunts is I can right click the grunts faster than the peon attacks. I didn't try the map enough times to figure it out, whether if I click on every single grunt will I kill them all, or will the attack speed of the peon be too slow and some of my commands will get skipped... I think some would get skipped so you have to like wait for the peon a bit to make your attacks, but you can get ahead a little bit maybe? I don't know. I died after killing like 10-15 grunts and after 4-5 tries I didn't want to play anymore because it wasn't worth the bother.
There is a reason why your commands "are skipped". So it's not just your perception, it's an actual problem and the cause is the game speed. The faster the game, the slower your units will respond. So yes, you do have to wait before issuing a command, something you dont need to do in EF because shit just does things when it's suppose to. It just goes to show that latency is a serious problem and it inhabits the user's actual skill at doing a task causing them to be more inefficient. This map is inherently easy, that is why it gets easier the slower you make the speed. Not because you have time to "think" but because the time between you telling the peon to do something and the actual action happening is MUCH faster than it would be if it were done on Fastest.
In otherwords, you actually have to LOWER your APM (by waiting for the command to complete) in order to excel at this map which is backwards from what you'd really want to do. You're to good Blid, you just have to adjust and then you'll see why this map is stupid ;)
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Lance, attack speed also is a limiting factor. I mean, if I have a dragon or a ballista and right click 10 different enemies with it, a lot of the commands will get lost even in a local game, because the attack speed of the unit isn't as fast as you are putting in commands.
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Yes Lance isn't fully correct in his review of how a peasant works on fastest. Blid there is a specific rhythm you have to get into to take the men correctly. You can do it as fast you want basically if you know to follow that rhythm and continue to click correctly. In EF it made it so you have to literally wait for each chop visually so it made it more annoying but you still have more time to react. TK as for the worn out debate I have played Warcraft 2 since 1998, pretty much every BNE and so many customs, BNE(for 4 years was never pro tho), Chop, BGH, Free Castles, Waterknights, Archers, Laser Tag, Cats and Ratz, RPGs, PBall i stopped playing BNEs as much when I found PBall because i find it more enjoyable. Anyway I said my peace I have nothing to prove on that subject.
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I attempted this map and it was quite boring. I got to about 120 kills before I gave up and just quit. How many units keep coming? Are they being created from a barracks or is there a limited supply somewhere. I didnt look at the map in an editor or anything. But mindless a-click-a-click-a-cl..... ya, no thanks. I think I killed enough to prove that it only takes a couple tries to beat the map. My wrist is killing me, I think thats about all I gained from the map :) I spose I should probably watch the whole video to see if it ever ends eh? hahaha I did notice that in order to start the flow I had to kill a farm to the right and then hurry up and move back to the corner as the flow started. Why do you have to kill the farm to start them?
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When a computer's farm is killed they will send a big rush of any units that are in a certain vicinity and are that color. It is used in different PBall style RPGs like The Dark Cave! BrightXero and I use the same technique in some of our maps I got Bright into making maps. There is 296 grunts on that map total and yeah it can be an endurance map as your wrist starts bothering you, kind of like footman frenzy and free castles type stuff but I hate that. I have beat it on fastest in 20 minuets or less but the other 2 times I beat it alone was about 30-60+. With a partner I beat it twice once with QUICK{hR} and once with Xcal and its quite a bit easier and doesn't take as long. Like I said it's not a full RPG it's more of a challenge map like in the early of days of Warcraft 2 people made different building or unit challenges maps. Peasant vs Comp is a decently hard map it can be frustrating.
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You mean its actually a real map that people have played? I thought it was just a map you slapped together to show off apm or something. I wouldnt consider it a real map at all beyond seeing how long you can last before you get arthritis.
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Oh no I made the peon vs 296 grunts map. It pretty much is just slapped together. The base map is actually my PBall map 40 Man PBall. I just took one area and made it more dense forest with the units you see. The Dark Cave! the RPG that I got killing farms to get rushes is a real map that is well known though. There are many PBalls that are well known even a few of my own. I have made 100 maps or so PBalls, RPGs, Small vs Large PBalls, and some normal customs. By the challenge maps I mean I read somewhere once people got the peon race thing out of other "race" or "challenge" maps in the old days.
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lol this is the dumbest thread on the forums and has paragraphs of responses. just leave the poor kid alone he doesn't know how to war2
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Ah Yamon you have finally slithered in here. Stop trying to bs my games you are obvious. Dodging newb.
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lol this is the dumbest thread on the forums and has paragraphs of responses. just leave the poor kid alone he doesn't know how to war2
lol bro stfu and take your pills. Follow own your advice from your previous thread and stop posting garbage.
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