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Warcraft II => Server.War2.ru => Topic started by: Warbux on January 20, 2019, 04:43:55 AM

Title: HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced
Post by: Warbux on January 20, 2019, 04:43:55 AM
you know i we have all been wrong this whole time... we dont consider the fact we dont play on the speed the game was ment  to be played on
faster i think is the highest speed that the game is balanced on ... also people do not play hu correctly you can not play them like you play orcs
hu does not require wood in first tier wich means you dont need as many peons as orcs to which means hu are essentially faster
so your able to get a rush out an still have mages befor any orc even clicks his lust upgrade ... so far in my testings im able to rush an still get 2-3 mages out
befor the average person is lusted.. now if we are playin onfaster... an im ahead in speed wit hu .. you can easily take down a orcs 1st lusted wave..
now u can micro your mages more efficient you can slow all his ogres an drop a blizz on him.. clean up the rest with your knights an proceed to hit his base/blizz his gold or whatver
im pretty sure this is why iron man games were only played onf faster because it was balanced!

now this being said id like to start a petition to bring back iron man please so we can play the game the way its ment to be played with hu having a fair chance ty
Title: Re: HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced
Post by: Cel on January 21, 2019, 12:01:40 PM
lets put it that way differences are not big between the two races it is fairly simple to list them:

Resources:
Overall the resources cost differences for humans on upgrades is not always a win especially since in most map gold is more valuable in the long run yes you do not have to bother putting more peons on wood but you will run out of gold slightly faster too so overall not a real win

If you want to do the maths you can, both races are as fast for rushing 18 grunts except orcs wont have to pull peons out of their mine to get the lumber for tech.
Sure there are situations where you might prefer having humans for example in Friends where chopping peons are exposed but overall it is not a frank win win for humans.
It is a very situational advantage

Ogre vs knight spells:
There is a reason why church is almost never built and the altar of storm a building that is worth repairing to get just a little faster.
vision vs exhorcism:
vision gives better radius but you can use eyes of killrog to make enemy destroyers friendly fire (even if barely anyone does that) and also it lasts longer and allow your to scout multiple mines at once in one go which you cannot do with vision overall utility wise I would say it is a tie since you can use vision better to prepare an attack.
heal :
costs 1k gold and 200 ticks to research it is 2 times slower to get than lust
Useless because it simply does not heal enough to have a big enough impact for the time and cost it has.
exhorcism:
can be usefull but also costs 2k gold to research which is two times more than runes or bloodlust and also 200 ticks to reasearch (2 times slower than bloodlust) for an effect that is undoubtedly lower value and way more situational.

Now lets get to the fun part:

mage vs dk spells:
Here I will compare spells with their usage counterparts:
Coil vs Polymorphism
Coil is free you get it from the start and costs 100 mana two coils can kill almost any units in the game and also heal the dk back to full life.
Polymorphism costs 200 mana 2kgold and 200 ticks to research and will allow you to kill one unit instantly. You have to have the 200 mana to use it which makes it more situational.
Invisibility vs Haste:
Both spells allow one unit to surprise an enemy and do tons of damage before the enemy has time to react
Invisibility has the advantage that it can be used to scout  without enemy noticing.
Haste has the advantage that it doubles dragons damages and peons chops.
On the cost side of things it also costs 2k less gold 150 less mana and is researched twice as fast
Slow vs Haste:
You have to use slow during fights while enemies are moving targeting moving units is not as simple as preparing an attack and then send.
But it is true that slow works pretty much on all units. it is worth mentioning that both spells cancel each other.
Slow is a very good spell but it is single target and very uc intensive for the same cost as haste you get much more ease of use with haste though haste wont allow you to speed up the attacks of your units only dragons are an exception to that rule.

If you haste your units before a fight the human player will have to slow them twice to be able to slow them once to remove haste and a second time to slow them...

I dont think I need to compare tornado and flameshield whirlwind wins any day the only drawback is you do not decide exactly where it will wander.
Skeletons is a useless spell and very situational that cost a whole amount of money and has no human counterparts so we can leave it behind.

Balistas vs cats:
ballistas have to load their shots and they can also loose the bolt cats instantly fire no stupid loading time no cancel time. everything else is the same.

Archers vs trolls:
the only difference between the two is troll Regeneration vs Marksmanship which are occasionally researched but in very situational situations and mostly for trolling no puns intended.

Every strategy that you can play as a human player can be played as an orc player for almost exactly the same effect, the power to lust strat though has no equivalent for humans.
Also human mages are useless without any spell researched not Deathknights who basically have a polymorph spell for free right as they appear into existence.

So yes humans are in almost all regards weaker than orcs and this has not only to do with game speed you can play it at the slowest speed possible an orc will still have the advantage.
The only change really is that the faster the game goes the least refined the uc becomes.
Orcs spells being less uc intensive makes them more playable in fastest though to be honest it is still a mess.
Play fastest if you do not like uc and want to have more units on the map basically.
Title: Re: HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced
Post by: baRa on January 21, 2019, 01:21:47 PM
Your post is very spot on I would say. Although humans are a lot more fun to play for me personally (I always liked the challenge) orc definitely has the advantage late game. And that is solely based on BloodLust alone. All of the spells the human mages have are 100% useless on fastest. Even the evenfaster speed setting the spells are not efficient enough to research and use. On the faster speed, although still harder to play late game with humans, is more manageable than the higher speeds.

How many times do players like me and dugs see our allies type "if only you had lust we could have won"? But for the love of the alliance, WE SHALL NEVER CHAAAAAAAAANGE
Title: Re: HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced
Post by: Cel on January 21, 2019, 02:24:12 PM
Yup
Essentially playing humans is almost like playing the orcs without the altar of storms, with spells that are for the most part 2 times more expensive and/or harder to use and of course shitty catapults.

You can still win against another non handicapped orc player, even someone that has the same level as you if you manage to kill him with a rush or if you manage to get super big, while playing around these restrictions but that does not mean it is balanced.
You still have less options available to you at the start ;-)
Title: Re: HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced
Post by: woofy on January 21, 2019, 03:30:55 PM
Since humans are a weaker late-game race, you have to be sneaky with them early.  Hide your raxes, fake dual, learn to OT, learn knight/sap rush,  do fast saps if your ally is an excellent rusher. Also, if it gets to late game and you're facing a strong dualer, the best strategy is to secure the enemy's potential expos, play super-defensive and bleed them dry.

Humans aren't an offensive race late-game, they're defensive. This puts a whole new spin on the game for me and I find it more enjoyable.

Oonymaiallymadoos
Title: Re: HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced
Post by: Szwagier on January 21, 2019, 04:16:35 PM
If you haste your units before a fight the human player will have to slow them twice to be able to slow them once to remove haste and a second time to slow them...


??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

What????
you need only one, haste/ slow wont stack, both spell will remove if u use another slow->faster faster->slow


if u play faster orc player will put A click lust then he will go to his base and control something else, new exp/rax making more ogres
while human will sill micro

orc>>>human
haste dk> invis mage
you can block invis mage while hasted dk will kill your all units if u try block him, ofc buldings will block haste and invis
Title: Re: HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced
Post by: woofy on January 21, 2019, 06:27:40 PM

haste dk> invis mage
you can block invis mage while hasted dk will kill your all units if u try block him, ofc buldings will block haste and invis


you're wrong. invis mage >>>>>>>>>>>>> haste dk.   one paladin with full mana and exorcise the dk in one DONG. invis mae is super OP
Title: Re: HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced
Post by: Warbux on January 21, 2019, 07:28:49 PM
Resources:
Overall the resources cost differences for humans on upgrades is not always a win especially since in most map gold is more valuable in the long run yes you do not have to bother putting more peons on wood but you will run out of gold slightly faster too so overall not a real win
ok will start here... u dont need as much peons for tier 1 is what i emnt ok so when u tech faster at lets say 16 15 peasants.. u have like a45 second speed advantage .. once u tech u pull 5 out mine an chop .. leave 10 in the mine ... then u make 2 peasants add them to wood as ur makin a stable u do not rep the stable.. once stable is done u go castle .. then once castle is done u spam more peasants put them on gold... an of make 2 mage towers an a church.. by the time ur done wit this ull have about 7 knights 2-3 mages and holy vision all befor a orc hits lust.. id say thats a huge advantage not needing as many peasants

and ps ... u dro pa early mill for wood advantage an use the peasant u made the mill with to chop early so he will pay for ur stable.. the others will pay for your castle.. sometimes i move more from gold to wood wood to gold depending the situaiton but its all about resource management gettin the resoureces when u need it ... so hu has a huge speed advantage an it doesnt affect your gold in game
Title: Re: HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced
Post by: Warbux on January 21, 2019, 07:33:23 PM
the rest of what u said is just opinion so no need to comment there.. but yes on faster the game is balanced simple as that.. we need iron man back!!
Title: Re: HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced
Post by: Warbux on January 21, 2019, 07:41:10 PM
do you realize how op holy vision is cel? its like u dont need ot send little eye balls to find people u jus bam pick a spot on the the map see the whole area,,, and like he said excor a dk killer easy.. and heal .. if u all healed as computers healed with all knights healing 1 knight u would see the huge advantage in heal being able to heal 1 knight to full health only using a tiny bit of mana off each knight with multicast.....i think the game is completly balanced on hu vs orc an theres no way of proving it unless u get derber orc vs derber hu becuz no 1 is the same lvl of skill to fully show a fair lvl game...

regardless we need iron man back so we can play this game properly.... we use to play fastest to play more games an play with more people but
lets be honest were getting old fastest went out the window we all play ef now ... and why do we need to speed up the games? no rush to rehost your lucky to get another game as ur prolly gonna be playin with the same people if no 1 leaves... faster is more balanced and theres really no excuse anymore to play anything faster then that other then the facts were all use to ef
Title: Re: HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced
Post by: Warbux on January 21, 2019, 07:55:40 PM
If you haste your units before a fight the human player will have to slow them twice to be able to slow them once to remove haste and a second time to slow them...


??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

What????
you need only one, haste/ slow wont stack, both spell will remove if u use another slow->faster faster->slow


if u play faster orc player will put A click lust then he will go to his base and control something else, new exp/rax making more ogres
while human will sill micro

orc>>>human
haste dk> invis mage
you can block invis mage while hasted dk will kill your all units if u try block him, ofc buldings will block haste and invis

goes both anyways orc or hu can cntrl 1 2 3 4 there raxes an make knights / ogies wit out lookln at there base ... an since t he best way to micro wit humans is to run your knights away to wear off lust so u can easily micro u dont need to engage on the orcs terms u run knights away heal them engage after lust..
Title: Re: HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced
Post by: Warbux on January 21, 2019, 10:52:22 PM
omg i jus read the rest of ur 1st post cel... an i wish i can take my minutes back.. im like scratching my head if i didnt see u on id assume u didnt even play wc2 XD ... i dont think you said 1 correct thing
Title: Re: HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced
Post by: shesycompany on January 22, 2019, 01:57:50 AM
dwarves... just patrol them ...boom!
Title: Re: HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced
Post by: Shotgun on January 22, 2019, 02:21:41 AM
Game was probably balanced on "Normal" speed. It was fun to play on that speed back when you first started playing, however if we played on it today we'd be playing 1.5 / 2 hr games.
Title: Re: HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced
Post by: Cel on January 22, 2019, 02:28:42 AM
@Szwagier And I agree, all I meant is if you haste a unit a mage cannot slow it unless it casts slow two times. Once to remove haste second time for slowing after the haste was canceled.
You are basically saying the same thing, maybe it is clearer if I formulate it that way :-)

@Warbux All I say is true though these are numbers not feelings.
Szwagier is right you can body block invisible mages and wall them off, and you can use runes to catch them  as they go through expected path ways.
Also he is right to say that there is no stopping a hasted dk it will do damages no matter what, if it does not manage to get to your mine it can still kill whatever was in the way.

The real superiority of haste though is its versatility you can use it to do a lot of things and it is the cheapest spell to both research and use there is.

Every single numbers that I gave are right, prices are also right and these spells are effectively used that way.

Now I am not saying strategies do not exist that human can win with.
Some strategies are both available to orcs and humans for example:
- powering to ogres/knights,
- powering to sappers,
- powering to mages
- rushing,
- dualing
etc...

And they are for the most part almost as easy to pull off as a human as it would be for an orc and as deadly.
What I am saying here, is orcs just have more options available to them and can afford to fail more because of the possibility of falling back to lust if the original strategy failed.
Humans do not have a mid game option, there is no in between early and late game for humans they cannot afford to fail.

And again if you want to compare, you have to take into account numbers too, how long does it take you to make two mages + research blizzard and invisibility then having enough mana for both spells and  hit your first target with the combo.
How long do you think it takes an orc to have D&D and haste and two dks with enough mana to hit their first target?

Even if you somehow managed to have it out at the same time which is impossible you are still missing a nuke in case you face enemy mages or if you get hit before blizzard is finished researching. Death knights have Coil for free!
They have the best nuke/heal spell in the game, for free, and you have fireball lol now good luck proving fireball is super good.
Hell even if polymorphism was the free spell for humans I would still rather have Coil.
Why you may say?
Because I played enough humans to know that if I just finished producing two dks they almost immediately can use Coil because it only cost 100 mana, if I get two mages out they just cannot cast polymorph they are sitting ducks waiting to be slaughtered.

You have the 200 mana in total, you just do not have it on one unit. Every time you cast a spell with a mage that situation will happen because this mage wont be able to nuke anything for a looong time. So you have to time it in your head, and make sure you know which mage has what amount of mana all game.
With DKs you do not have that problem 100 mana is much easier to reach and it wont be hard for you to find a dk that has enough mana to use that nuke during the game you dont have to even think about that.

If you play humans a lot you will understand what I am talking about, having mages standing behind just so that they have enough mana later you are basically always managing that mana.

Now you may say there is slow right! Well spot on! slow is actually way better than polymorph but you still have to research it, it is not free.

So lets add all that if you add 200 ticks for blizzard 200 ticks for invisibility and 100 ticks for slow. And if you sum all that up you have 500 ticks of research to do before you get your late game mage equivalent to dks.
For the price: 5000 gold to get all these researched.

If you take polymorph instead of slow that is even crazier:
600 ticks worth of game time.
6500 gold.

for orcs well that takes 300 ticks worth of time to research 250 ticks if you go for whirlwind instead of d&d.
And well the price I think it is easy to do the math as well: 2500 gold if you go for d&d 2000k if you go for whirlwind instead.

lets sum that up:
If you only take blizzard and invisibility and have no extra useful spells:
400 ticks
4500 gold
Best timing for human with slow:
500 ticks
5000 gold
worst timing for human (polymorph instead of slow):
600 ticks
6500 gold

best timing for orc (whirlwind):
250 ticks
2000 gold
worst timing for orc (d&d):
300 ticks
2500 gold

Now how much faster do you think a human can get his mages ready to fight an orc that goes for the same strategy?
Even if the spells were better in your opinion how much of a lead do you think 4k gold and 2 times faster researches gives at that time in the game?

 :peon:
Title: Re: HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced
Post by: Szwagier on January 22, 2019, 02:57:52 AM
You cant click  with palladin exo on haste dk cause he will run when he was when u click, So you need full control Micro while your opponent will Just macro

Anyway why non tier 1 player think orc=human??
Title: Re: HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced
Post by: Lambchops on January 22, 2019, 03:25:52 AM
Yeah. I have said for years when these discussion come up that the spells were concieved and balanced with "normal" speed being normal.

At slower speeds it becomes realistic to heal units mid-battle etc or make creative strategic use of other spells. Probably the blizz designers did a pretty good job of balancing them under those conditions, as they did a good job in general, but we will probably never really know because chances are nobody will ever bother getting to pro skill level at those speeds to test.

.... or NORMAL speed tourney anyone??

Title: Re: HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced
Post by: Szwagier on January 22, 2019, 05:13:27 AM
Yeah. I have said for years when these discussion come up that the spells were concieved and balanced with "normal" speed being normal.

At slower speeds it becomes realistic to heal units mid-battle etc or make creative strategic use of other spells. Probably the blizz designers did a pretty good job of balancing them under those conditions, as they did a good job in general, but we will probably never really know because chances are nobody will ever bother getting to pro skill level at those speeds to test.

.... or NORMAL speed tourney anyone??


Remember if u Would heal,  your enemy will do something else,
Title: Re: HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced
Post by: O4L on January 22, 2019, 06:01:06 AM

.... or NORMAL speed tourney anyone??



I actually remember hosting one of these with really short notice back in like 2012.
It was either eden_in_black or Meowingtons who won it.
Title: Re: HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced
Post by: Winchester on January 22, 2019, 06:35:37 AM
i personally rep my first mage tower like an altar of storms so i can research blizzard faster so by the time my first mage pops out of my hidden mage tower his ready to blizz immediately. ill also throw in a gryphon or two to roam around scattering ogres that are lusting, I generally get good value out of it before they decide to finally kill it.
Title: Re: HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced
Post by: shesycompany on January 22, 2019, 09:32:18 AM
isnt normal speed = to war3?

im almost sure its in the skill..a pro person would be ready.
its been proven by the great falkentyne

"Humans aren't an offensive race late-game, they're defensive. This puts a whole new spin on the game for me and I find it more enjoyable."-woofy

dam im pretty sure these dudes destroy alot of orcs :o
Title: Re: HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced
Post by: Cel on January 22, 2019, 02:30:45 PM
You can change the speed of the game all you want it wont change the numbers, You still have to spend twice the amount of gold to get the human equivalent of an orc's late game dks and twice the amount of ticks (game time).

You can repair your mage tower and make air yes, now how is that relevant? Cant an orc player do that too?

And again if you do that with an orc you have the exact same unit when it comes out except you have Coil which is the best nuke in the game because you can use it way more often and almost as soon as your dks come out (mages and dks spawn with 85 mana).

Oh and you also have the option to get whirlwind instead of d&d which is slightly weaker but faster to research if you research that you dont even have to rep your temple.
In some situations whirlwind actually is better than d&d if you use it on a gold mine it will stay way longer than d&d there thus preventing mining more efficiently. if the peons where pulled off the mine they will have to wait more before they can get in again oh and you can retreat your dk as soon as the whirlwind is casted.

Yes slowing the speed down will make targeting moving units easier and since slow / polymorph / heal are directly targeted spells it will make it easier for a human player to cast these and get more value out of them.
But the imbalances do not only rely on the impracticability of these mechanics, numbers just do not add up.
You simply do not get as much value out of your clicks even if you manage to perfectly use your spells.

Paladins will barely ever heal each other back to full life because heal is expensive and it will cost you a lot of actions to try healing them.
It takes 3 actions to select pick the heal and apply it will never get you the same value as 3 actions to select an ogre pick bloodlust and apply it.
Heal simply does not heal enough for it to be worth it.

More numbers:

Lets compare in terms of mana / value:
50 mana heal will really heal 8 hit points.
50 mana Bloodlust will increase your damages by 3 for a level 5 ogre, so instead of  4-8 damages he will do 12-24 damages if that ogre lands only 1 punch this is already more value than heal lol.
Even if you made bloodlust disappear after the first punch it would still be more worth it than heal from that perspective XD.

Exhorcism along with skeletons and flame shield must be one of the most situational spell there is. think about it you can use it only on 1 unit out of the 15 units orcs have if you have 1 orc opponent out of 2 it makes it even more awkward.

 :peon:
Title: Re: HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced
Post by: Lambchops on January 22, 2019, 09:26:59 PM

Despite any other advantages, the biggest advantage by far that lust has over heal, is that you can cast it before a battle then send and forget. Heal must be cast once a unit is damaged, which is often just before it dies. This particular advantage is very much related to game speed/microing, although I can definitely see cel's point about the mana costs.

Actually an equivalent "opposite" type spell for lust is something like unholy armor. Heal is not a good direct counter to lust at all, but more useful between battles.

Heal should be useful in pinches with front line units being healed by those behind, but in reality that situation tends to play a much bigger role in early game with grunts/footies.


It's not unreasonable to suspect that healing was originally intended for the cleric unit type, but was given to the paladin when they decided to can the cleric. I'm not sure how far through the game creation process that was. Perhaps they never quite tweaked it properly for pals.


Title: Re: HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced
Post by: Winchester on January 22, 2019, 09:41:59 PM
Im simply telling you how I play humans Cel. I play humans reguarly and Im not here to argue balance. In a previous thread months back you were against patching the spells to be more usable out of nostalgia other then gold costs and maybe lowering a point or two for heal, i can't remember if the heal suggestion was you or someone else, but you seemed against everything else other then costs.   warcraft 3 recently did it (and that game is now really old too) and as far as going to change which buildings make certain units such as spirit walkers and at what tier that building can be made (Tauren Totem changed to t2 instead of t3).  I catch incoming dks often with either a flying machine, gryphon (they can do this too of course but often wont because too committed to lust), or holy vision. eye of kilrogs sight is too poor to find incoming dks on a regular basis and is more useful for finding hidden things like expansions or hidden temples/raxes

And the air is relevant as humans because like i said, people trying to lust a group of ogres clumped together are more thrown off when all there ogres are running and scattering away from each other. Humans don't have lust so a dragon attacking them does not bother them as much since they would've just charged immedietely in instead of waiting to lust. Holy vision is extremely useful when attacking things like expansions on almost all maps as the reveal is so large that when you see ogres coming to defend, you can retreat with minimal or no damage at all while crippling your opponent.

I won't try to argue the usefulness of heal as it is incredibly poor when up against lust, however when up against a bunch of guard towers defending expansions it gets some ok value if your not using a mage to get rid of them. So i will pick it up since i build a church for holy vision anyway.

Title: Re: HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced
Post by: Cel on January 23, 2019, 01:29:20 AM
Do not get me wrong though.
I am not saying we have to change the balance of the game I am fine with the game how it is.
I am not against trying to balancing it either, but it is not that big of an issue for me, the imbalances are not fun breaking the way they are and the nostalgia factor is untouched.

It seems to me that from where we are the nostalgia factor is more important than the balance (especially since as I said there are strategies where the balance actually does not matter since not all the units/tech are affected).

All I am saying here is that the imbalances between the two races do not only come from practicability and speed.
That would be great but that is simply no backed up by the numbers it is a myth.

It is however true that the speed would help the targeting part for humans more than for orcs since humans have more targeted spells but even if you have perfect targeting facing an opponent that have equal skills you are still behind as a human against orcs.

I guess my point here also is that the imbalance are there even when humans are not involved, lust breaks the game and is a no-brainer it makes every strategy not involving lust less attractive.

Heal may need a buff it is true and to be honest and answer your question I do not think most people would remember it did not work like exhorcism in terms of targeting so I am not entirely against changing that either.
But that also seem much more complicated than just changing the mana costs.
I am not even sure we can do such a change but if  we could then I do not think I would be against it as long as we keep the sound effect and particle animation and icon of the heal intact.
Though the main problem with heal still is I think that it costs way too much mana to be worth getting in the first place.

At least heal does not break the balance within the human tech tree like lust does for orcs though, you still have to use flying machines and your brain, and every other strat is much more played as humans because you do not have that ridiculously overpowered no-brainer available.


To sum that point up:
balance is not just between races, it is also between the options you give to a player, if one of these options is too attractive you are also impacting the balance of the game and pushing the players down a path where they do not have to think as much.

That is why it is so fun to play humans because you basically cannot rely on lust to win which makes other strategies more interesting to try.


I may create a tournament one day with orcs where lust is disabled I can already tell you that we will see much more variety in the strategies used and way more zeppelins out mid game /  late game.

If you do not trust me try playing without lust as orcs and you will see how much more you have to prepare your attacks and how much more you have to use your brain to win.
Just like when you play as a human it becomes more thrilling and honestly more interesting.

This is why I always liked playing humans more the race is just a little bit more balanced in itself.

Though part of that is feelings not facts and I would completely accept that one may have a different opinion/tastes especially when it comes to  the value of brain usage in a game.


As for my balance post:
Yeah I made a post was balancing the game by doing the smallest changes possible to it to keep the nostalgia as intact as possible (so that players that comes back after 10 years wouldn't be able to tell the difference) trying to target exactly what is wrong about the balance in priority because that is my main concern when I see people suggesting to replace paladins heal with skeletons or haste or slow and exhorcism with death coil or unholy armor.
I think we can do better than that.
Title: Re: HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced
Post by: shesycompany on January 23, 2019, 05:34:35 AM
lol cel the thing about war2 is the weak hp! even lust 3x orges are still 90 hp they still gonna die...ur thinking about knights vs orges, they are other units.

i bet 1million bitcoins when they hit 0$ that ever mod that tried to be war2 on war3, the main complaint was "they die so fast!"

if ur the same skill level as ur opponent u shouldnt die to a brute force lust attack.

lets say they are attacking ur base trying to come in ...a couple of cats should kill them all with no dk help and hopefully ur harassing the map with mages to keep them from taking the map.

instead of thinking total destruction ..u make the battle go on and on and on till their lil orc mind snaps and they rage..or they starve out.

now get in there soldier..find a strat it works cheers!
Los Del Rio - La Macarena. [Version Original] - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anzzNp8HlVQ#)
Title: Re: HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced
Post by: Cel on January 23, 2019, 07:03:09 AM
ok so lets do more math I guess:

90 hit points right?

How many punches a lvl 5 ogre/knight has to do to kill a lvl 5 knight on average if he always does the average damages?
Listening to your argument it is like we are talking about 2 or 3 punches here lets look at the numbers shall we?

lets calculate:

The combat equation in war2:
((Base Damage - Armor) + Piercing Damage) = Total Damage

Minimal damages = Round(Total Damage / 2) * 1
Average damages =  Round(Total Damage / 2) * 1.5
Maximum damages =  Round(Total Damage / 2) * 2

Ok so a level 5 knight/ogre does 8 base damages and 4 piercing damages upgrades apply to the base damages so we have 12 basic damages and 4 piercing damages.
The armor of a knight/ogre is 4 + 4 with the defense upgrades = 8

((12 - 8 ) + 4 = 8
minimum damage = 4
average damage = 6
max damage = 8

How many punches before the target dies?
90 / 8 = 11.25 punches on average

With lust? Lust doubles both the piercing and base damages.

((24 - 8 ) + 8 = 24
minimum damage = 12
average damage = 18
maximum damage = 24

90 / 18 = 5 punches on average

Now say you have 50 mana on a paladin how likely are you to make a paladin win an engagement with a lusted ogre if you micro manage it and heal that paladin up ?

8 hp heal:
98 hp to kill the paladin how many punches?
98 / 18 = 5.4 aye about the same oops.

5 punches you can heal in between yes very doable it is just never going to be worth it, it just isn't even after the fight is done the value of these mana points is just not worth building that church and paying the upgrade you are better off spending that money anywhere else.

So lets do that.
What can humans do better than orcs like really better?
You are talking about using ballistas well guess what catapults are just straight better.
Towers are exactly the same for both races.
Deathknights are better/cheapier/faster to upgrade than mages. (I exposed the reasons before you can look that up)

The strategies you are talking about can be used by an orc player as well and will actually perform better.
The only reason humans play these strats and orcs barely ever play them is because the lust power-spike is a more reliable strategy to go for.

We are talking balance here there is nothing a human can do that an orc cannot do except there are a lot of things that orcs can do that humans absolutely cannot afford doing.

Conclusion: Nope the units do not have low enough HP for bloodlust not to have a hudge impact on the game.
Title: Re: HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced
Post by: shesycompany on January 23, 2019, 09:36:37 AM
theres only one thing to do..is run some test..but im telling ya skill is the #1 factor ill never compete with the top humans
Title: Re: HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced
Post by: Warbux on January 27, 2019, 07:55:40 PM
human an orcs are balanced on normal speed .. honestly they are even balanced on faster an thats how they allow faster on iron man.. now we need to bring back iron man
Title: Re: HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced
Post by: tk[as] on January 27, 2019, 08:07:24 PM
human and orc are unbalanced.. regardless of speed/resouces/map


./end thread.
Title: Re: HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced
Post by: Warbux on January 29, 2019, 08:53:00 PM
You cant click  with palladin exo on haste dk cause he will run when he was when u click, So you need full control Micro while your opponent will Just macro

Anyway why non tier 1 player think orc=human??

u dont need to click on DK all u need ot lcick is the ground in the area of any dk an it does exo
Title: Re: HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced
Post by: Warbux on January 29, 2019, 08:55:07 PM
people can sit here an talk how they played for 20 years like they know it all .. simple fact is they went through years of patching this game befor it went to battle net an it is balanced if you play on the speed it was intended for ..an even on faster i would say its almsot fairly balanced which is why they allow it for iron man an ladder .. an they dont allow ef or fastest because of the unbalanced... people jus dont know how to play human correctly your dealing with the resources all wrong say what you want your jus wrong period
Title: Re: HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced
Post by: Warbux on January 29, 2019, 08:56:45 PM
humans were made to tech faster there for can have mages and paladins befor a orc can even reach lust .. if you play it right an use it to your advantage you can beat an orc befor he reaches lust... not to mention the spells mages and paladins have... you dont need to click on a dk to exo all you need to do is click the ground around them an it does its damage...and wit more time to macro you can work the heal correctly / multicast heal so it takes little to no mana from each paly per unit healing ... if you play wit palys an mages together correctly you can beat lust on the correct speed
Title: Re: HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced
Post by: Warbux on January 29, 2019, 09:00:38 PM
and cel im sorry i cant even read your post because your playing humans an orcs the same way an its not played that way you need more peons in teir 1 for orcs humans dont require the same amount so your ticks are wrong
Title: Re: HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced
Post by: Warbux on January 29, 2019, 09:05:32 PM
get out of the "i need to mine gold faster then him so i can win" mind state an go for the resources u need... u dont need so many in the mine because your getting gold that you cant even spend yet... use your peons correctly an put them on the resources that you are goin to need an you are faster.. peons need wood for upgrades in tier 1 humans dont there for humans dont need to chop until after they click the keep tech... maybe 1 chopper tops befor then jus to pay for stable... its about getting the resources you need at the time you need it that maximizes your speed
Title: Re: HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced
Post by: Warbux on January 29, 2019, 09:07:15 PM
if i got a tier 1 player to apply what im saying here he would rape any orc wit humans 1v1 easy ... to bad im not good enough to prove it XD
Title: Re: HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced
Post by: tk[as] on January 29, 2019, 10:33:01 PM
human <orc .. the end.
Title: Re: HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced
Post by: Cel on January 30, 2019, 09:26:43 AM
I keep answering respectfully because maybe you are being serious with the whole thing but I honestly thing you may just be trolling at this point.
You seriously think that in 20 years you are the first one who wants to make it work?
Do you think no one ever ran the math before you to see how much game speed affected both races?

My "ticks" are not wrong, a tick is one game time unit that is not depending on the speed the game is played at, that is what ticks are.
Warcraft 2 is a turn based game where turns are ticks and time is what makes every turn pass to the next.
If you want to remove time out of the equation it is simple: consider war2 a turn based game where a tick is one turn which is why talking in ticks makes sense.

Humans need less workers than Orcs? In what scenario exactly? Prove it!
Do the math and / or share with us one build order that works better for humans than orcs where humans have such an advantage.
And when I say a build order I mean for every peon up to the time you get your advantage tell us what are the orders you give them.

Maybe you feel more comfortable putting your peasant in the gold and not on the wood that is your preference but you see the thing is your argument without facts to back it up can go both ways. One might say if you fail to be as fast when playing the orcs than as a human it just mean you are bad at managing your resources it basically is not relevant.
But hey!
If you really think you can come up with a build order that will allow you to get footmen / knights / Mages faster with better upgrades as humans than an orc can do please go ahead and give us the build order including every peons and what you send them to do.

That way we can discuss / analyse / compare with what an orc may be able to do in the same amount of game time (Ticks) and  starting resources, that would be more interesting than just opinionated statements.

Here is what a fact looks like:
On POS low and many other settings human weapon upgrade cost 1200 more gold than the orc weapon upgrade this is 2 extra grunts from the starting gold mine. On a map like this it can be a significant advantage.
As in many other maps really where gold is more scarce than lumber gold is the one resource players are used fighting over. Now that is also true and undeniable.

Some other fruits for though:
Submarines / Giant turtles rush requires exactly the same number of peons / peasants before upgrading your keep to get your first two turtles out.
same Sappers / Demos Rush.
same goes for DK + D&D / Mage + Blizzard Rush.
Fact is it is true because for all these strats the units / upgrades and ticks costs are exactly the same.

I am betting your point is if you do upgrade your melee troops and include that to your build order it changes things then all I am asking is that you prove it and give us a real undeniable fact to look at.

Now more facts:
The speed makes targeting slow and other tricky spells of humans easier so we may assume an ideal scenario where both players always cast their spell perfectly and never miss:
If humans have perfect micro then the same goes for orcs.
Meaning if both players bring mages and dks to the fight slow and haste are canceled out everytime because both spells take exactly the same amount of resources and game time to get for both races.

The way lust is: as soon as ogres have lust it is safe to consider that lust will always be up on them so no there is no out-running them it is always up.

The hit point healed by heal are just nothing compared to lust I gave the math behind this earlier the spell cost exactly the same price in gold and double the time to research and does not have at all a comparable impact on the game and is harder to use properly.

But hey we said perfect micro here game is super slow both players will have the time to perfectly use all spells.
What does that give us:

6 points of mana for heal = 1 hit point

Heal:
1 point of mana = 0.16666667 hit points

For lust if you use it on an ogre attacking something the ogre has the time to land 40 hits maximum:
We are talking here 16 bonus damage per hit times 40 = 640 bonus damage for 50 mana:

Lust if the ogre lands all his punches (40):
50 mana = 640 bonus damage.
1 point of mana = 12.8 hit points

Lust if the ogre lands only one single punch:
50 mana = 16 bonus damage.
1 point of mana = 0.32 hit points


So to resume if we do not take player mistakes into account and consider a hypothetical perfect micro environment we can compare the two spells by their mana vs hit points balance ratio:
Worst case scenario for humans Lust is 80 times as efficient as heal.
Best case scenario for humans Lust is still twice as efficient as heal.

And keep in mind both spells can be used on all organic units but heal will only affect organic units while lust will also boost damages against buildings and structures or mechanical units.

Also that it will cost twice the time to research heal (200 ticks vs 100 ticks for lust).

Funny that you would mention Exhorcism is a very expensive spell (2 times more expensive than its counter parts and is slower to research too), it has a use on one single type of unit out of the 30 units the game really has which unit they already do pretty good against in most situations. Not often that a dk will escape 2 knights running at him so the plus value of exhorcism there is debatable.
So we are talking here a very very situational thing hat has a 4 mana cost per hit points balance effect.

Exhorcism:
1 point of mana = 0.25 hit points


Still is 0.25 hit points per mana.
So still not as effective as a one punch lust (0.32).
Do you seriously think any reasonable player would rather have exhorcism than lust or runes, even if it was for the same price and research time?

Same goes for mage spells vs death knights spells everything humans have orcs have but better / cheaper / faster.

Unless you can bring something to the table that is an actual fact that is measurable and comparable not just statements this wont go anywhere.

I honestly think that keeping an open mind is important, I am ok with the idea that we all could be wrong for so long, but I am not just buying opinions without facts and repeatable or calculable evidence to back them up.
Undeniable facts that would be big enough to overcome the ones I just gave you.

If no facts are given it just is a matter of belief and this usually does not go anywhere.
Title: Re: HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced
Post by: O4L on January 30, 2019, 10:13:02 AM
One thing that needs to be remembered is the hotkeys as well. Yeah some people did change their original keys but was that even possible when the game was released?

Humans have the advantage with hotkeys. P for paladin and peasent. You could quickly cycle through your Halls and barracks.

B for build, barrack, ballista, blizzard. One hotkey covering all of those things.

BT for build tower, and T for Train Mage, and T for stand ground

When there is no gold no lumber no oil and instant click then Humans are the best  :D

I think in the slower speeds that I agree humans would be the superior race. Bloodlust would just be too ineffective while Holy Vision would be a big advantage.
Title: Re: HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced
Post by: Cel on January 30, 2019, 11:28:08 AM
Better hotkeys is a fact and valuable point though if the speed is not taken into account having better hotkeys has no effect on the game play.
Hotkeys are a way to make something faster so their effect really is tied up to the speed the game is played at.

Because we all agree here that the overall effect of speed is being detrimental for humans I guess we can safely say hotkeys are a non factor regarding human vs orcs balance compared to ease of actually using spells if anything it makes humans suck just a little bit less but they still suck.

What would make lust not effective the lower the speed goes? It still would last the same amount of ticks and can still be always up and math show its effect on hit points per mana spent is still better than heal even if ogres only land 1 punch.
Ogres and Paladins regenerate mana at the same rate and have the same maximum mana.
Which makes comparing their potential effect on hit points more relevant to analyse their efficiency.

As a matter of fact I am willing to bet the slower the game goes the better orcs tend to utilize their lust time.
But yeah that effect is more visible for heal since the spell is that much harder to use.
My point being even if both players use perfectly their spells Lust still has a better mana vs hit points final effect ratio.

Holy vision is a great spell but is not that much better than eyes of kilrog. Especially when speed is removed of the equation the eye of kilrog will allow you to check pretty much every mine / potential expo of your enemy without spending that much mana humans will have to spend more than one holy vision to get that same information.

So the way I see it although holy vision will allow you to prepare an engagement better in some situation it is still not that great in other situations that for me makes these spells pretty balanced.
Also there is the fun factor of eye of kilrog allowing you to make packed enemy destroyers sink each others :P

Every single number that differ and is not relative to game speed goes in favor of orcs being the trump card race.

All I am saying here the imbalance is a thing and facts are there to back it up.
Now it does not mean it is a problem that has to be addressed but facts are facts.
Title: Re: HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced
Post by: shesycompany on January 30, 2019, 11:36:47 AM
i say just scrap war2 and remake sc alphabeta :thumbsup:
Title: Re: HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced
Post by: Cel on January 30, 2019, 12:08:10 PM
I say keep war2 and love it for what it is, even if it is not perfectly balanced.

Nothing does everything perfectly. War2 has things it does better and things it does not.
Try loving it for what it actually is, no need to turn a blind eye on things people may think are bad.

War2 to me is the best real time grid / board / space management game ever made, I do not care about small imbalances there and there that is the plain truth.
Imbalances are just not bad enough to over shadow all the things war2 does better and that you wont find in any other game out there.

Also maybe it is good that the races are not perfectly balanced maybe it is better that way.

As I explained before I don't see why denying it.
Hell even when you remove speed of the equation numbers do not back the fact that speed is the only factor that makes orcs stronger.

In any case if you really want to deny it, have some real solid proof that overcomes all these facts piled up for 20 years of knowledge about the game but that I doubt may ever happen.

And honestly I genuinely do not care balance is not everything otherwise everyone would have stopped playing GOW by now...

And that is a statement based on the bad side of imbalances but imbalances also can make things more spicy more interesting to look at.
Perfectly balanced game-play can also make things feel empty and too linear no power spikes no rythm just boredom.

Point being I agree with TK on that one, imabalances are here, so what?
Lets just play that freaking awesome game!
The end.
Title: Re: HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced
Post by: ~oE~ on January 30, 2019, 01:15:39 PM
I think part of the reason that humans are also generally viewed as weaker is because the majority of games are played on GOW, where that map is conducive to mass ogre attacks which ofc bloodlust significantly tilts the favor. Because there is much more shit going on, its much harder to micro and take advantage exorcism, polymorph and other unit specific actions. "Most" people generally find it easier to lust a group of ogres and patrol off given all the other shit going on.

If you consider other speeds and other types of maps (whether water or even land maps where micro is more important) then I think humans are generally about even with orcs.
Title: Re: HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced
Post by: shesycompany on January 30, 2019, 01:37:43 PM
sc alpha beta is in war2 :p
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/starcraft/images/e/e0/Zergalpha.jpg
Title: Re: HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced
Post by: Warbux on January 30, 2019, 02:13:51 PM
I keep answering respectfully because maybe you are being serious with the whole thing but I honestly thing you may just be trolling at this point.
You seriously think that in 20 years you are the first one who wants to make it work?
Do you think no one ever ran the math before you to see how much game speed affected both races?

My "ticks" are not wrong, a tick is one game time unit that is not depending on the speed the game is played at, that is what ticks are.
Warcraft 2 is a turn based game where turns are ticks and time is what makes every turn pass to the next.
If you want to remove time out of the equation it is simple: consider war2 a turn based game where a tick is one turn which is why talking in ticks makes sense.

Humans need less workers than Orcs? In what scenario exactly? Prove it!
Do the math and / or share with us one build order that works better for humans than orcs where humans have such an advantage.
And when I say a build order I mean for every peon up to the time you get your advantage tell us what are the orders you give them.

Maybe you feel more comfortable putting your peasant in the gold and not on the wood that is your preference but you see the thing is your argument without facts to back it up can go both ways. One might say if you fail to be as fast when playing the orcs than as a human it just mean you are bad at managing your resources it basically is not relevant.
But hey!
If you really think you can come up with a build order that will allow you to get footmen / knights / Mages faster with better upgrades as humans than an orc can do please go ahead and give us the build order including every peons and what you send them to do.

That way we can discuss / analyse / compare with what an orc may be able to do in the same amount of game time (Ticks) and  starting resources, that would be more interesting than just opinionated statements.

Here is what a fact looks like:
On POS low and many other settings human weapon upgrade cost 1200 more gold than the orc weapon upgrade this is 2 extra grunts from the starting gold mine. On a map like this it can be a significant advantage.
As in many other maps really where gold is more scarce than lumber gold is the one resource players are used fighting over. Now that is also true and undeniable.

Some other fruits for though:
Submarines / Giant turtles rush requires exactly the same number of peons / peasants before upgrading your keep to get your first two turtles out.
same Sappers / Demos Rush.
same goes for DK + D&D / Mage + Blizzard Rush.
Fact is it is true because for all these strats the units / upgrades and ticks costs are exactly the same.

I am betting your point is if you do upgrade your melee troops and include that to your build order it changes things then all I am asking is that you prove it and give us a real undeniable fact to look at.

Now more facts:
The speed makes targeting slow and other tricky spells of humans easier so we may assume an ideal scenario where both players always cast their spell perfectly and never miss:
If humans have perfect micro then the same goes for orcs.
Meaning if both players bring mages and dks to the fight slow and haste are canceled out everytime because both spells take exactly the same amount of resources and game time to get for both races.

The way lust is: as soon as ogres have lust it is safe to consider that lust will always be up on them so no there is no out-running them it is always up.

The hit point healed by heal are just nothing compared to lust I gave the math behind this earlier the spell cost exactly the same price in gold and double the time to research and does not have at all a comparable impact on the game and is harder to use properly.

But hey we said perfect micro here game is super slow both players will have the time to perfectly use all spells.
What does that give us:

6 points of mana for heal = 1 hit point

Heal:
1 point of mana = 0.16666667 hit points

For lust if you use it on an ogre attacking something the ogre has the time to land 40 hits maximum:
We are talking here 16 bonus damage per hit times 40 = 640 bonus damage for 50 mana:

Lust if the ogre lands all his punches (40):
50 mana = 640 bonus damage.
1 point of mana = 12.8 hit points

Lust if the ogre lands only one single punch:
50 mana = 16 bonus damage.
1 point of mana = 0.32 hit points


So to resume if we do not take player mistakes into account and consider a hypothetical perfect micro environment we can compare the two spells by their mana vs hit points balance ratio:
Worst case scenario for humans Lust is 80 times as efficient as heal.
Best case scenario for humans Lust is still twice as efficient as heal.

And keep in mind both spells can be used on all organic units but heal will only affect organic units while lust will also boost damages against buildings and structures or mechanical units.

Also that it will cost twice the time to research heal (200 ticks vs 100 ticks for lust).

Funny that you would mention Exhorcism is a very expensive spell (2 times more expensive than its counter parts and is slower to research too), it has a use on one single type of unit out of the 30 units the game really has which unit they already do pretty good against in most situations. Not often that a dk will escape 2 knights running at him so the plus value of exhorcism there is debatable.
So we are talking here a very very situational thing hat has a 4 mana cost per hit points balance effect.

Exhorcism:
1 point of mana = 0.25 hit points


Still is 0.25 hit points per mana.
So still not as effective as a one punch lust (0.32).
Do you seriously think any reasonable player would rather have exhorcism than lust or runes, even if it was for the same price and research time?

Same goes for mage spells vs death knights spells everything humans have orcs have but better / cheaper / faster.

Unless you can bring something to the table that is an actual fact that is measurable and comparable not just statements this wont go anywhere.

I honestly think that keeping an open mind is important, I am ok with the idea that we all could be wrong for so long, but I am not just buying opinions without facts and repeatable or calculable evidence to back them up.
Undeniable facts that would be big enough to overcome the ones I just gave you.

If no facts are given it just is a matter of belief and this usually does not go anywhere.

already proved orcs need more wood then humans tier 1 there for need more workers gold is a easier resource to get so hu can get the extra gold faster then orcs can get the extra wood ... so not needing wood in tier 1 for humans lets them tech faster ... i dont see what is so hard to understand? what do i need to prove to you do you need screen shots of how much the upgrades cost?
Title: Re: HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced
Post by: Warbux on January 30, 2019, 02:15:45 PM
so yes playing in normal or even faster speed the game is balanced ... the game makers were not idiots in creating this game .. they did the right job they jus didnt account for people palying in different speed modes .. which is why i say again ladder is balanced playing on no faster then "faster"
Title: Re: HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced
Post by: Szwagier on January 30, 2019, 03:06:42 PM
I keep answering respectfully because maybe you are being serious with the whole thing but I honestly thing you may just be trolling at this point.
You seriously think that in 20 years you are the first one who wants to make it work?
Do you think no one ever ran the math before you to see how much game speed affected both races?

My "ticks" are not wrong, a tick is one game time unit that is not depending on the speed the game is played at, that is what ticks are.
Warcraft 2 is a turn based game where turns are ticks and time is what makes every turn pass to the next.
If you want to remove time out of the equation it is simple: consider war2 a turn based game where a tick is one turn which is why talking in ticks makes sense.

Humans need less workers than Orcs? In what scenario exactly? Prove it!
Do the math and / or share with us one build order that works better for humans than orcs where humans have such an advantage.
And when I say a build order I mean for every peon up to the time you get your advantage tell us what are the orders you give them.

Maybe you feel more comfortable putting your peasant in the gold and not on the wood that is your preference but you see the thing is your argument without facts to back it up can go both ways. One might say if you fail to be as fast when playing the orcs than as a human it just mean you are bad at managing your resources it basically is not relevant.
But hey!
If you really think you can come up with a build order that will allow you to get footmen / knights / Mages faster with better upgrades as humans than an orc can do please go ahead and give us the build order including every peons and what you send them to do.

That way we can discuss / analyse / compare with what an orc may be able to do in the same amount of game time (Ticks) and  starting resources, that would be more interesting than just opinionated statements.

Here is what a fact looks like:
On POS low and many other settings human weapon upgrade cost 1200 more gold than the orc weapon upgrade this is 2 extra grunts from the starting gold mine. On a map like this it can be a significant advantage.
As in many other maps really where gold is more scarce than lumber gold is the one resource players are used fighting over. Now that is also true and undeniable.

Some other fruits for though:
Submarines / Giant turtles rush requires exactly the same number of peons / peasants before upgrading your keep to get your first two turtles out.
same Sappers / Demos Rush.
same goes for DK + D&D / Mage + Blizzard Rush.
Fact is it is true because for all these strats the units / upgrades and ticks costs are exactly the same.

I am betting your point is if you do upgrade your melee troops and include that to your build order it changes things then all I am asking is that you prove it and give us a real undeniable fact to look at.

Now more facts:
The speed makes targeting slow and other tricky spells of humans easier so we may assume an ideal scenario where both players always cast their spell perfectly and never miss:
If humans have perfect micro then the same goes for orcs.
Meaning if both players bring mages and dks to the fight slow and haste are canceled out everytime because both spells take exactly the same amount of resources and game time to get for both races.

The way lust is: as soon as ogres have lust it is safe to consider that lust will always be up on them so no there is no out-running them it is always up.

The hit point healed by heal are just nothing compared to lust I gave the math behind this earlier the spell cost exactly the same price in gold and double the time to research and does not have at all a comparable impact on the game and is harder to use properly.

But hey we said perfect micro here game is super slow both players will have the time to perfectly use all spells.
What does that give us:

6 points of mana for heal = 1 hit point

Heal:
1 point of mana = 0.16666667 hit points

For lust if you use it on an ogre attacking something the ogre has the time to land 40 hits maximum:
We are talking here 16 bonus damage per hit times 40 = 640 bonus damage for 50 mana:

Lust if the ogre lands all his punches (40):
50 mana = 640 bonus damage.
1 point of mana = 12.8 hit points

Lust if the ogre lands only one single punch:
50 mana = 16 bonus damage.
1 point of mana = 0.32 hit points


So to resume if we do not take player mistakes into account and consider a hypothetical perfect micro environment we can compare the two spells by their mana vs hit points balance ratio:
Worst case scenario for humans Lust is 80 times as efficient as heal.
Best case scenario for humans Lust is still twice as efficient as heal.

And keep in mind both spells can be used on all organic units but heal will only affect organic units while lust will also boost damages against buildings and structures or mechanical units.

Also that it will cost twice the time to research heal (200 ticks vs 100 ticks for lust).

Funny that you would mention Exhorcism is a very expensive spell (2 times more expensive than its counter parts and is slower to research too), it has a use on one single type of unit out of the 30 units the game really has which unit they already do pretty good against in most situations. Not often that a dk will escape 2 knights running at him so the plus value of exhorcism there is debatable.
So we are talking here a very very situational thing hat has a 4 mana cost per hit points balance effect.

Exhorcism:
1 point of mana = 0.25 hit points


Still is 0.25 hit points per mana.
So still not as effective as a one punch lust (0.32).
Do you seriously think any reasonable player would rather have exhorcism than lust or runes, even if it was for the same price and research time?

Same goes for mage spells vs death knights spells everything humans have orcs have but better / cheaper / faster.

Unless you can bring something to the table that is an actual fact that is measurable and comparable not just statements this wont go anywhere.

I honestly think that keeping an open mind is important, I am ok with the idea that we all could be wrong for so long, but I am not just buying opinions without facts and repeatable or calculable evidence to back them up.
Undeniable facts that would be big enough to overcome the ones I just gave you.

If no facts are given it just is a matter of belief and this usually does not go anywhere.

already proved orcs need more wood then humans tier 1 there for need more workers gold is a easier resource to get so hu can get the extra gold faster then orcs can get the extra wood ... so not needing wood in tier 1 for humans lets them tech faster ... i dont see what is so hard to understand? what do i need to prove to you do you need screen shots of how much the upgrades cost?

are you serious? so lets play a game 12v2 human vs orc, peonstop 9 peons, orc got advanced cause he need less gold for upg,


one peon will get 300 gold or 100 wood , go try it, set low sets make 1 peon 0 gold 0 wood and try get lvl 2 weapon, which race will be faster orc or human?

who are you? are u tier2 player?
Title: Re: HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced
Post by: Cel on January 30, 2019, 03:10:47 PM
@easycompany LOL oops sorry I puked.

Yet again.
As I explained before I don't see why denying it.
Hell even when you remove speed of the equation numbers do not back the fact that speed is the only factor that makes orcs stronger.

In any case if you really want to deny it, have some real solid proof that overcomes all these facts piled up for 20 years of knowledge about the game but that I doubt may ever happen.

Just because slowing down the speed makes humans suck a little less does not mean they do not suck when the speed factor is removed, speed is just ice on the cake.

Now if your point is to say that the imbalances are not game breaking then we agree.
Humans can definitely be played vs orc and win, they just are straight out weaker and speed is not the only factor behind that fact.

And if you disagree then show us what you think constitute advantages that humans have when you remove the speed factor over orcs and that are big enough to compensate the ones I described before.

No @Warbux you havent given us any proof just things you believe in.
The only differences in prices are for weapon upgrades and spell upgrades nothing else <= this is a fact.
A fact and it fucks them up in low res on maps like POS a 100% I already said why and that also is a fact because its just simple math here.

You seem to believe you can achieve things better as a human than as an orc so share with us your build order as a human that an orc cannot execute the same nor have a similar build order that achieves the same thing you said humans need less workers to click up and be ready to take advantage of that juicy tier 2. You should be able to prove that statement.

Give us your detailed build order including all peons and what they are sent to do and where you think that big advantage happen.
And it still has to account for all these imbalances we enumerated that are still there when the speed is not taken into account.

Otherwise this is just not good enough.
Title: Re: HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced
Post by: Cel on January 30, 2019, 03:29:08 PM
No one said the game makers were idiots, no one said the races have to be balanced for the game to be fun to play or interesting either.

As a matter of fact one could argue imbalances create less linear more interesting game play.

But even if the balance really was a problem to fix time has its effect and we know way more about the game and how it is played than even they knew back in these days.

No matter how smart you are you will never be able to guess everything people will come up with a game like this.
Also think about this:
Before war2 there was no comparable multiplayer experience out there, it just was not a thing, war2 invented worldwide multiplayer for rts games.

Everyone know how multiplayer and large scale testing really is necessary to reveal balance flaws these days why do you think it does not apply to warcraft 2?
Title: Re: HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced
Post by: Warbux on January 31, 2019, 12:11:20 PM
well i thin only way were going to be able to prove this is if were able to actually play alot of games in faster and no 1 is gonna play those games because they are not use to playin on a faster speed they are goin to stick to what they know.. unless we have ladder an iron man back which your forced to play on faster an id like to host ladder or iron man games.. i spoke to il an hes gonna do somethign for it but itll take some time but a new ladder system will come sooner or later an will see then .. thx for your input bud
Title: Re: HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced
Post by: tk[as] on January 31, 2019, 12:24:22 PM
the fact that this is beong discussed shows lack of war2 understanding .. its been known for over 20 years that orc are superior .. its not gonna change now.
Title: Re: HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced
Post by: shesycompany on January 31, 2019, 02:14:18 PM
i can see a pro human taking out alot of average lust orcs..idk about pro vs pro

i think humans are better on sea.
Title: Re: HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced
Post by: Cel on January 31, 2019, 05:33:04 PM
Just like lowering the game speed playing maps where abusing the advantages orcs have is harder will make that advantage smaller but it does not remove it.
The only reason u8 will beat you 10 times out of 10 on a water map with humans is not because humans are stronger than orcs its because he is better than you.

Now saying there is a handicap does not mean that handicap is game breaking it is a small handicap especially on water maps, the stronger player will always win.

Numbers are numbers on paper orcs win that is what it is.
If you take the cost vs power efficiency of their spells while not even taking into account their ease of use orcs are more potent and are cheaper/faster.

Slowing down the game, though it will affect the ease of use, wont affect the fact that human spells still are more expensive for a weaker effect than their orcs counterparts.

Numbers just are very bad for humans in addition to that ease of use problem.

There is just no area where numbers are better for humans.

Now I understand you want to believe there are, its cool.

Your point seems to be that yes their spells suck, but they have one advantage that is the costs difference on the weapons upgrades and that for you really goes in favor of humans.
I already gave you an example when that actually is a real advantage for orcs (POS low = 2 more grunts for orcs out of that starting mine) and I do not need a pro player to be able to understand that it is a measurable advantage.

Now if that advantage you are talking about is real, given how big and measurable the orc advantages are it should not be hard for you to demonstrate the human counterpart you are talking about.

You say they can afford to get keep quicker than orcs with less workers.

Give us a build order where you believe that human advantage shows up something you believe is not doable faster/better playing as an orc.
Since you believe it overcomes the obvious other flaws humans have it shouldn't be hard to make it a very obvious and clear example.

If you can't come up with an example I am sorry but maybe there is a reason for it maybe you could be wrong.

You see, I am not asking you to be able to play super good you do not need to be super good to create / describe a build order and demonstrate what it can achieve no one asked you to play it and win with it against a pro player.
If there is indeed such an advantage for humans it should transpire just as easily as the ones orcs have.
Especially since you say it makes both race balanced when the game speed is lower.

Just prove your point don't be that guy who comes and says everyone was wrong before him without actually backing his own claims.
Title: Re: HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced
Post by: Lone on January 31, 2019, 08:05:54 PM
Bloodlust on F is a choice, a style, an option, but not a game winning advantage for evenly skilled players. In most cases people who rely on bloodlust will actually get stomped by people who do not even build altar or play humans.

I don't remember the exact number, but blizzard does about twice as much damage damage to units as DnD. This coupled with invisibility gives humies an edge over orcs on a map, where lusted ogres are not the main way to control the map. So on a map where there are good defensive options, due to having fewer paths to take and having choke points that mages can hold. If on a map, the orc cannot force the human to stay on/inside 1-2 base(s), invisibility will be better than haste.

Humans are at least even, but I think better than orcs on any speed on HSC classic/BNE. Bloodlust is not a big deal when ogres are getting blizzed the moment they hit the shore.

On classic gow ef, you should only play humans if you want a weaker player to be more challenging/fun to beat. There is no build order or resource difference due to the lvl 1 weapons upgrade that would give humies any kind of edge.
Title: Re: HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced
Post by: Swift on January 31, 2019, 08:56:36 PM
Humans are arguably better than orcs on BNE Gow / High / F in a 1vs1
Title: Re: HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced
Post by: Warbux on February 01, 2019, 12:28:48 AM
Bloodlust on F is a choice, a style, an option, but not a game winning advantage for evenly skilled players. In most cases people who rely on bloodlust will actually get stomped by people who do not even build altar or play humans.

I don't remember the exact number, but blizzard does about twice as much damage damage to units as DnD. This coupled with invisibility gives humies an edge over orcs on a map, where lusted ogres are not the main way to control the map. So on a map where there are good defensive options, due to having fewer paths to take and having choke points that mages can hold. If on a map, the orc cannot force the human to stay on/inside 1-2 base(s), invisibility will be better than haste.

Humans are at least even, but I think better than orcs on any speed on HSC classic/BNE. Bloodlust is not a big deal when ogres are getting blizzed the moment they hit the shore.

On classic gow ef, you should only play humans if you want a weaker player to be more challenging/fun to beat. There is no build order or resource difference due to the lvl 1 weapons upgrade that would give humies any kind of edge.


when ya on ima whisper u an have u check sumthin out ina game an get ur input on it .. i wana show u what i mean by hu are faster
Title: Re: HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced
Post by: baRa on February 01, 2019, 12:53:39 AM
Humans are the bomb. Everyone knows they arent balanced with orc. This entire game is messed up and bugged all over the place. Such as tower bugs, freezing gryphons, freezing units on patrol etc etc.

I think all these imperfections make the game, well, perfect!
Title: Re: HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced
Post by: Cel on February 01, 2019, 07:27:38 AM
Not sure?
Try it yourself! make yourself a test map run it multiple time count exactly how much damage difference there are between the two spells in all your runs and make an average.

Based on my empirical testing here is what it looks like:

d&d does 40% more damage to farms and towers than blizzard and that is very significant d&d will kill farms that blizzard does not.

Blizzard does about 20% more damage to ogres but it also is way more randomly distributed than d&d meaning 5 cast on a pack of ogres will not damage all of them just a bunch of them.
It means a lot of the dealt damage is wasted if the shards do not perfectly hit the ogres, and that is a lot more random with blizzard than d&d.

It is also worth mentioning that an ogre or knights standing directly under a cast of either spell wont survive its full duration.

Also a hasted d&d on a pack of ogre will kill them faster than a blizzard and will cost way less magic than multi-casting.
Both races can multicast it is not a human thing.

I think any honest and somewhat reasonable player would always rather have haste than invisibility the spell is just cheaper faster to research and can be used in a wider range of situations, it is just a stronger spell.
With invisibility you can sneak a mage and kill some peons mining can't you do exactly the same with hasted dks? Wont that hasted dk do even more damages?
Ever tried using invisibility to blast a pack of 9 ogres by surprise? Well it works with a hasted dk humans can't compete on that part either.

How often can you use Invisibility? It costs 200 magic to use, it is just as much as polymorph or two death coils, 4 haste, it is worth 8 casts of blizzard...
A mage starts up with 85 mana meaning you have to wait a looong time before you can use that spell, you do not have to wait for haste and it will not have to wait long to use it again.
Sure invisibility looks cool and is fun to play and watch or use but it does not have the impact haste has it just is not as effective.

On hsc transports are fast, what are the odds you will be able to stop a transport with a hasted dk instide to kill your peons/farms/towers?
Also a good thing to note on hsc late game people tend to "slow mine" with only a few expandable peons what do you think hurts them more in that situation a hasted dk killing their farms and buildings or a mage killing these few mining peons :-)

So no Humans are not at least even they are straight bad! Very very very bad!

If you still want to argue blizzard is not inferior to d&d I will leave it as an equal but keep in mind the rest looks like this:

heal < lust or runes
exhorcism < lust or runes
slow < haste (same price)
invisibility < haste (cheaper and  free if you already spent that to get your slow counterpart, 2 spells in one)
polymorph  < coil (It is better and it is free vs 2k gold 200 ticks to research)
ballistats < catapults (no loading / reloading time before shooting)

^all of the above I have backed with detailed explanation before and proper comparisons.

I dont even bother mentioning the other human spells because they are just not even worth using.
On top of that orcs have unholy armor and whirlwind that do have a use in game.

And just like Lone said there is no advantage for that cost difference on the weapon upgrade if anything it is a disadvantage on maps where the gold is even more rare like POS low.
Gold is just that more valuable than lumber in almost all maps except for water maps when you go water big time in which case your are most likely to never get that upgrade anyways.


The only advantage humans have is for the marksmanship upgrade vs trolls regeneration that no one ever does anyway because it is not worth getting in the first place.
But there it is here is your big humans advantage: marksmanship!


So yeah game is not balanced, humans suck and honestly no one cares because the imbalances are not game breaking, you can still win as humans and most strategies can be played with them with fairly the same result and if they were played by an orc.

Conclusion just like baRa said the fact that humans are weaker than orcs is a fact and is in itself it is fun, it makes them challenging and a good way to play with a handicap against weaker players.
Since the game does not have a handicap mechanic like warcraft 3 or other games have it is one way to make that happen.

Just because you want to believe in something does not make it true if you want to convince people it is true, back your claims with undeniable facts and evidences.
Prove your claims don't just say they are at least even without double checking your facts.

Here ill even go ahead and attach a test map for you to try blizzard vs d&d for yourself.
 :thumbsup:
Title: Re: HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced
Post by: Cel on February 01, 2019, 08:16:21 AM
People claiming blizzard does about twice the damage of d&d only count the damage dealt by both spells on a unit standing directly under the shards or directly under the decay explosions.

If you want to compare the two spells you have to take the whole square in which the spells are effective because as I mentioned, blizzard is much more randomly distributed than d&d and that means the odds of actually hitting your targets are much lower so you have to take that whole picture that is why you need to count the damages done to all units within the area not just the ones directly under the shards.

The question then is for 25 mana how much damages do you do in that whole area on units for both spells.

How often have you used blizzard and watch in disbelief the shards landing all around the target but not on it?
Say you are lucky the shards do land on that ogre how long do you think he will stand there on that specific position and take it in the face?

At least with d&d you are more likely to hit your target multiple time and even as they run through it. It is more reliable.

But yes blizzard still does a bit more damages to units in the average cases on the other hand d&d does 40% more damage to farms and towers that is not just a bit more...

And honestly at that point to counter the other advantages orcs have blizzard might just as well be free and really do twice the damages d&d does with a twice as fast casting time that would be something.

I wish blizzard did twice the damages d&d does when I play humans :)).

@Sepi this is hard trolling at this point lol.
Title: Re: HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced
Post by: Cel on February 01, 2019, 09:06:23 AM
I guess it is not trolling you are right, who the heck needs facts when we can have an honest opinion :thumbsup:

My god Sepi and Warbux and all of you, I understand now, I believe you!
You guys totally changed my mind!
We all were completely fooled for 20 years damn you are so right numbers mean nothing facts are completely irrelevant.

Next time I play humans I will rush exorcism without making peasants because I don't need them and I will kill everyone with it!

Dang @Szwagier I cant wait to see you dominate all tournaments this year with your lightning fast human build orders and exorcism / blizzard plays we are totally not trolling here we are right and for 20 years you all were wrong!

And also remember you do not need as many peasants!

You have to trust me on this one because it is now my opinion :thumbsup:
Title: Re: HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced
Post by: Cel on February 01, 2019, 09:39:42 AM
Wait what? Refuting? No way!

I completely am sold by all these opinions!  Not only yours all of the above!
Dude all your combined opinions are just too strong for me to refute.
I must admit I was wrong and so were most of the people believing in what? facts? Numbers? Stupid empirical testing and statistics? Logic? Fuck all that it is irrelevant!

For 20 years we basically trusted the wrong paradigms, genuine honest opinions are all that matter the rest can be discarded we need none of that crap!

What the heck were we thinking all that time?!  :))
Title: Re: HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced
Post by: Cel on February 01, 2019, 10:20:59 AM
It trully is easier not to respect someone why do you even try?
Dude just ignore what they say and give your own opinion based on what you believe!
It is easier on you that way it is the truth!

Btw did you know that if you have 5 mages that have full mana you can make 5 sappers invisible to kill an enemy fortress before they can do anything about it!
People never do that because they suck at war2!

Also invisibility is broken because you can make all your mining peasants invisible if you have enough mages and that way your enemy wont even know that you are mining and will never kill your peasants!

The only reason human players don't do it is because they are bad at the game or because they do not need peasants in the first place!

Title: Re: HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced
Post by: Winchester on February 01, 2019, 10:28:13 AM
invisbility actually kills sappers. Bet you didnt know that!
Title: Re: HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced
Post by: Szwagier on February 01, 2019, 10:48:49 AM
invisbility actually kills sappers. Bet you didnt know that!

That could be a nice taktic invis 4 sapps and no fort, guess thats why they make impossible. I knew it
U guys Still talking about it? Human is good as orc Only if orc cant  send fast ogres  to human (sea map)

Even in slowest orc>human in late game in fair map, ofc orc player who got s9 can lose vs 11 human, but that will be loss cause spot not cause race
 
Title: Re: HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced
Post by: Cel on February 01, 2019, 10:58:37 AM
Lies Invisibility totally works on demolition squad because it is my opinion!
Why would I mention it if that was not true? Are you trying to say I am being dishonest here?
People don't do it because they don't know how to play war2 after 20 years!
<<< Trust me I know I am better than them

Also haste absolutely does not make sappers faster! It simply does not work on them.

And haste does not make demolition squad even faster than goblin sappers it is not a thing why would they even do that? Wait does it now?...

DAMN TOLD YA HUMANS ARE THE OP MASTER RACE
Title: Re: HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced
Post by: Cel on February 01, 2019, 11:22:43 AM
cel going deeper into snarkument. hes powering up.

This definitely was not a troll post in the first place so I would never troll you know me I cant be a  troll since I play humans.
Humans do not have trolls that is the simple truth I am imune.

invisbility actually kills sappers. Bet you didnt know that!

I totally did not because my opinion certainly is right about the whole thing.

PS: did you know you could cast flameshield on your battle ships and that will help you win any water fight?
Since they have to run to you to avoid the shots they will  have to get in range of that flameshield and because it lasts ages and is so cheap and has such a great range and damages it will totally make you win any water fight all the time!

Also it works even better on sub marines because they are very sneaky that way!

The best part is to cast flameshield on flying machines!
It totally works and it lasts even longer.
You basically have a lightning fast whirlwind that you can precisely move around!!!
Player never do that because they are retarded it just is the simple truth.

You have to accept it humans are a master race...
Orcs are just slaves at this point that is why slow looks like legcuffed orc foot.
(http://classic.battle.net/images/battle/war2/pics/HSPELL/slow.gif)
Because slavery.
Because orcs are weaker.
Get it?

It was there all along in the game files but people simply choose to ignore it because they are bad they look at the numbers, they don't know how the game works. I do.
Title: Re: HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced
Post by: shesycompany on February 01, 2019, 10:20:27 PM
im going to go  get drunk..  to all the people not chatting 

1.blizz/exo if u play human
2.maybe slow :o look its a weaker lust  or invis
3.canon  towers ..like  2 or more