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Flame Wars & Offtopic / Re: the mystery of violence in st.louis
« on: September 17, 2017, 08:43:16 AM »
@BabyShark
Yay
Common ground is a great place to start.
Sorry, but that was not the point I was trying to make.
I was trying to suggest that the mind of man could not possibly contain the true thoughts of GOD as the mind of GOD must contain all the mysteries of the entire universe. So anything GOD tells man is going to be a very simplified version of what she is actually thinking.
I'm sorry, but this is not correct. Please check your sources. Many people have devoted their entire lives to studying linguistics and the evolution of languages. They are most definately becoming more complex.
The development of language continues today. It is no mystery. As for it's origin, some birds have different alarm calls for "man" and "snake". There are many other well documented examples of this type of thing from animal kingdom. It stands to reason that early men developed different grunts with different meanings, and then continued to expand on this primative language the more they used it, as we still do today. The part of the brain that is responsible for language and its development are well know and have been extensively documented.
This is one of the most well studied and understood parts of human science.
Although it's true that humans have been getting smarter as we evolve, I don't imagine there would be a great deal of difference between the cognative processing ability of a modern man vs. a man 2000 years ago.
What there definately is, however, is a massive difference in the education level of an average person, and also in the collective knowledge of mankind. Most importantly language. In simplest terms modern languages contain many more words than their ancestral versions, so we can use then to communicate more complex ideas, and subtle nuances.
I'm sure that compared to the mind of GOD, the mind of a 2017AD man is just as tiny as the mind of a 500BC man. Any words that could be written down and understood today would still be nothing compated to the mind of GOD. Either way, it's still Einstein trying to explain relativity to a goldfish, the fact that one goldfish may be a little bit more advanced than another doesn't really tip the scales.
However I would think that a message written in today's language and for someone with today's knowledge, even when translated into ancient words would still be at least partially unintelligable to someone who lived 2000 years ago, because they just did not have the full range of concepts available to them that we have now.
In the same way we should view the words given to, written by and transcribed by ancient men as a copy of a copy of the best metaphor that Einstein could come up with to tell a small orange carp.
Without claiming to be particularly well versed in the bible, the Adam and Eve story seems to me to be very much involved with the gaining of self-awareness, which is a very important point in the evolution of man, for it is because we are aware of our own existance that we can be held resposible for actions, and therefore be capable of good or evil.
I don't see the old testiment as being incompatible with a time when the first humans became self-aware an discovered that they were alone in a beautiful garden. I'm sure there are many more good messages to be taken from it apart from the literal narative.
Of course it is scientific. I have been avoiding further discussing proof of evolution, as I have already written a fair amount, (even on this specific point) in a previous topic devoted to the subject. This topic is about racism and telling claw what a tard he is. ( yay! more common ground )
The process of evolution only came into it when you suggested that evolution was racist simply because some old white guys were racist.
I have also presented my personal thoughts as to why evoultion need not be considered contrary to the bible, depending on how you choose to interpret it. This is a bit off topic, but seemed relevant to the point that the conversation was up to.
Not always. Usually, certianly. Random mutations can and do add new genetic information, and these are almost always not an improvement, but very occasionally they are, and when this happens, we keep them.
But even apart from random mutations there are very specific tools that naturally exist to edit DNA. These are the tools that are use to create the GM stuff that scares people so much. Man did not create these things, they discovered them, worked out how they function then re-purposed them for their own goals. These are alive and functioning and part of the natural process. Whether or not you agree with scientists using them (yet another topic - not here pls) its must be noted that they are not man made. Maybe they evolved, maybe GOD made them, but man sure didn't.
This is the most important part. There is no eye-rolling at you BabyShark. You are one of my favorite WC2 people and I would not do you the disservice. I find you to be intelligent and charming (except when you boot me lol) I only wish I could help you to understand science without feeling that it in any way diminishes your faith. I don't think it's likely that we will ever agree on this topic but that won't change my opinion of you.
The specific explainations of proofs you have requested are long and involved conversations that I will not attempt here, although if you really do want to discuss them later I would be happy to.
A final thought.
Imagine for a moment, if you would, that evolution and the big bang theory are correct, and that GOD is real.
In the beginning there was darkness then GOD spoke the word into the darkness. The word of GOD was the light, and that light was the spark that started the big-bang, and from that spark the particles evolved, and the planets evolved, and the galaxies and the plants and the animals, and mankind, just as GOD knew it would, for it was her word that created it.
Then imagine you are GOD looking down at your beautiful creation, and you see that mankind has evolved to the point where they have realised that they exist and that they are in the middle of the beautiful garden you have created for them.
What would you tell them? Would you straight up just give them the full history of the known universe then follow up by explaining, in detail, the mechanism by which life changes its form?
... or would you tell them to love their neighbour, and not to murder people, but to treat others as you would have them treat you?
It seems to me, thankfully, that GOD is not a nerd, and opted for the second choice, which is what mankind really needed to know.
So don't look for the truth of science in the bible, it's not a technical manual for nerds - GOD made nerds to work that stuff out, and perhaps GOD gave us the bible to stop everyone else from killing all the nerds when they started talking about boring science stuff.
With love, respect and no eye-rolling
You said no part of science denies faith or God. I would agree with that statement.
Yay
Common ground is a great place to start.
Your assumption that man of the past was stupid and modern man is smart is completely false, however.
Sorry, but that was not the point I was trying to make.
I was trying to suggest that the mind of man could not possibly contain the true thoughts of GOD as the mind of GOD must contain all the mysteries of the entire universe. So anything GOD tells man is going to be a very simplified version of what she is actually thinking.
Look no further than these W2 forums to witness multiple modern specimens and their barely literate ramblings.LOL can't argue with that.
Language in the past was far more complex than language today. Language is devolving. Complexity is being lost.
I'm sorry, but this is not correct. Please check your sources. Many people have devoted their entire lives to studying linguistics and the evolution of languages. They are most definately becoming more complex.
Evolutionists do not have reasonable answer for the evolution of language and how languages came to be.
The development of language continues today. It is no mystery. As for it's origin, some birds have different alarm calls for "man" and "snake". There are many other well documented examples of this type of thing from animal kingdom. It stands to reason that early men developed different grunts with different meanings, and then continued to expand on this primative language the more they used it, as we still do today. The part of the brain that is responsible for language and its development are well know and have been extensively documented.
This is one of the most well studied and understood parts of human science.
Although it's true that humans have been getting smarter as we evolve, I don't imagine there would be a great deal of difference between the cognative processing ability of a modern man vs. a man 2000 years ago.
What there definately is, however, is a massive difference in the education level of an average person, and also in the collective knowledge of mankind. Most importantly language. In simplest terms modern languages contain many more words than their ancestral versions, so we can use then to communicate more complex ideas, and subtle nuances.
I'm sure that compared to the mind of GOD, the mind of a 2017AD man is just as tiny as the mind of a 500BC man. Any words that could be written down and understood today would still be nothing compated to the mind of GOD. Either way, it's still Einstein trying to explain relativity to a goldfish, the fact that one goldfish may be a little bit more advanced than another doesn't really tip the scales.
However I would think that a message written in today's language and for someone with today's knowledge, even when translated into ancient words would still be at least partially unintelligable to someone who lived 2000 years ago, because they just did not have the full range of concepts available to them that we have now.
In the same way we should view the words given to, written by and transcribed by ancient men as a copy of a copy of the best metaphor that Einstein could come up with to tell a small orange carp.
Without claiming to be particularly well versed in the bible, the Adam and Eve story seems to me to be very much involved with the gaining of self-awareness, which is a very important point in the evolution of man, for it is because we are aware of our own existance that we can be held resposible for actions, and therefore be capable of good or evil.
I don't see the old testiment as being incompatible with a time when the first humans became self-aware an discovered that they were alone in a beautiful garden. I'm sure there are many more good messages to be taken from it apart from the literal narative.
Lambchops, you sit perched in this idea that evolution is scientific. I am not talking about variation within created kinds such as the fact that dogs produce a variety of dogs, horses produce a variety of horses, roses produce a variety of roses etc.
Of course it is scientific. I have been avoiding further discussing proof of evolution, as I have already written a fair amount, (even on this specific point) in a previous topic devoted to the subject. This topic is about racism and telling claw what a tard he is. ( yay! more common ground
) The process of evolution only came into it when you suggested that evolution was racist simply because some old white guys were racist.
I have also presented my personal thoughts as to why evoultion need not be considered contrary to the bible, depending on how you choose to interpret it. This is a bit off topic, but seemed relevant to the point that the conversation was up to.
There is no mechanism in DNA that allows for the addition of NEW information. The scrambling or distortion of existing information happens (mutations) and this is always bad for the creature in question. Having an arm where an arm shouldn't be isn't progress.
There is no mechanism for new information to be added.
Not always. Usually, certianly. Random mutations can and do add new genetic information, and these are almost always not an improvement, but very occasionally they are, and when this happens, we keep them.
But even apart from random mutations there are very specific tools that naturally exist to edit DNA. These are the tools that are use to create the GM stuff that scares people so much. Man did not create these things, they discovered them, worked out how they function then re-purposed them for their own goals. These are alive and functioning and part of the natural process. Whether or not you agree with scientists using them (yet another topic - not here pls) its must be noted that they are not man made. Maybe they evolved, maybe GOD made them, but man sure didn't.
So other than just rolling your eyes and acting superior like science is on the side of the nonsensical theory of evolution, bring out your best evidence for one kind of animal turning into another kind of animal, specifically cows to dolphins would be ideal.
And when you have that covered, explain why you think an unobserved explosion of nothing that supposedly happened billions of years ago and created everything we see in the universe is in any way a part if science (which by defenition includes things we can observe, test, study, repeat).
This is the most important part. There is no eye-rolling at you BabyShark. You are one of my favorite WC2 people and I would not do you the disservice. I find you to be intelligent and charming (except when you boot me lol) I only wish I could help you to understand science without feeling that it in any way diminishes your faith. I don't think it's likely that we will ever agree on this topic but that won't change my opinion of you.
The specific explainations of proofs you have requested are long and involved conversations that I will not attempt here, although if you really do want to discuss them later I would be happy to.
A final thought.
Imagine for a moment, if you would, that evolution and the big bang theory are correct, and that GOD is real.
In the beginning there was darkness then GOD spoke the word into the darkness. The word of GOD was the light, and that light was the spark that started the big-bang, and from that spark the particles evolved, and the planets evolved, and the galaxies and the plants and the animals, and mankind, just as GOD knew it would, for it was her word that created it.
Then imagine you are GOD looking down at your beautiful creation, and you see that mankind has evolved to the point where they have realised that they exist and that they are in the middle of the beautiful garden you have created for them.
What would you tell them? Would you straight up just give them the full history of the known universe then follow up by explaining, in detail, the mechanism by which life changes its form?
... or would you tell them to love their neighbour, and not to murder people, but to treat others as you would have them treat you?
It seems to me, thankfully, that GOD is not a nerd, and opted for the second choice, which is what mankind really needed to know.
So don't look for the truth of science in the bible, it's not a technical manual for nerds - GOD made nerds to work that stuff out, and perhaps GOD gave us the bible to stop everyone else from killing all the nerds when they started talking about boring science stuff.
With love, respect and no eye-rolling
