Warcraft II Forum

Warcraft II => Server.War2.ru => Topic started by: ~ToRa~ on March 07, 2018, 06:16:36 PM

Title: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
Post by: ~ToRa~ on March 07, 2018, 06:16:36 PM
Harassment

In general, social behavior on the server is dealt with at the user-level.  When encountering unwanted messages from others, a user may choose to simply not listen, use the /squelch command, use the /dnd command, or ban the offending user from their games as necessary. 

However, occasionally harassment may arise, at which point administrators will step in.  Harassment will be considered to have taken place when a user makes a routine of bothering another user across multiple gaming sessions, and does in a persistent manner such that usual responses, such as typing /squelch once time each log-in session, fail to adequately handle the issue.

When a user is committing harassment, they will be warned by administrators, and failure to correct their behavior will lead to a ban.
Title: Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
Post by: LiveFreeorDie on March 07, 2018, 06:37:43 PM
Why not use the same policy for SS and hacking then?

Every time someone's caught hacking, like Swift, Teaboy, Allstar, and others have been, just tell them not to do it again.

Hacking does not ruin the game nearly as much as the vitriolic behavior of other users. Hacking ruins the game alright, but other user behavior is a much bigger issue affecting the ability of users to enjoy the game.

I'm currently reporting Swift harassment. I'd like you to ask him to not join my games or message me in the future. Thanks.

And LeeRoyJenkins private msg harassment.

And Ogremage false rape accusations against a player harassment and threatening unwanted real life contact and death wishes to my family harassment.

If anyone here doesnt think harassment or bullying isn't a big deal, please include your main server aka below and I can show you what harassment looks like once I'm done my 2 week ban by mimicking it for a month or however long it takes you to lose your mind.
Title: Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
Post by: tupac on March 07, 2018, 06:49:11 PM
@iL

You need to remove the quota flood control on squelch! I will release my autologin and auto squelch.
Title: Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
Post by: Cel on March 07, 2018, 06:52:38 PM
While I think it is perfectly normal to have a certain amount of salt between players and I do believe squelching is more than enough to solve most one to one problems.
There is one case though were one person will affect more than just one player and has to be warned and punished accordingly if we want to help advertising the game:

We should simply adopt a terms of use policy that punishes racism & hatred toward minorities just like almost all other gaming platform do.
All that crap that is non-game related does damage our community and our reputation toward new comers / viewers believe it or not.

This is maybe one of the only thing I would like admins to be able to address because it has happened in a streamed game chat that such a comment appear and it is damaging and out of place.
Just like kids when they don't understand what is the limit between asking a person a candy and robbing it from them we need to set limits too because some people wont behave otherwise.

Title: Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
Post by: jordan4385 on March 07, 2018, 07:57:36 PM
If anyone here doesnt think harassment or bullying isn't a big deal, please include your main server aka below and I can show you what harassment looks like once I'm done my 2 week ban by mimicking it for a month or however long it takes you to lose your mind.

Jordan4385, 00jordanus, 00Jordan, toungsta. I cant' wait until you start harassing me babyshark.
Title: Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
Post by: LiveFreeorDie on March 07, 2018, 08:29:40 PM
ROFL

No. You're exempt.
Title: Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
Post by: Player on March 07, 2018, 10:44:05 PM
Kleenex and squelch should be plenty.
Title: Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
Post by: Lambchops on March 07, 2018, 10:51:38 PM
Honestly if we could just get people to grow-tf-up.

If you are a racist, a classist, a misogynist, a homophobe, a biggot or have any other socially unacceptable disorder then:

  A) definately don't stream it.
  B) don't inflict it on random players ESPECIALLY newbs.
  C) preferably keep it out of chat and this forum alltogether.
  D) regardless of you own private opinion, unless you are actually at a KKK meeting, seriously consider keeping it out of all social interactions with all human beings and you may discover that you have more friends.

If you have an issue wiith another player and you really need to say something just tell them where to go then stop talking. The person who keeps going on with it by themselves always looks worse. Let them go.

Don't mess with other people's religions. Religion is NOT rational. You cannot rationalize any religious debate, by definition they are about faith not logic. I'm pretty sure no person has ever been converted to another religion playing on this server and nobody ever will.

If one of the few really screwed up players we have is genuinely harassing you and it has gone too far, contact one of the admins and they will try to help..... but just remember that those people go around being nasty to everyone at some time or another and everyone knows who they are and that it is not really about you it is about them being stuck in their own sad heads.

Carrying on this type of behaviour is DUMB. I'm sure all of us - including myself - have been guilty of it at one time or another but we need to be smarter. If we could all just behave like intelligent prople having FUN, 99% of new players might not just say "eww" and go play something else.


This is all basic stuff - it pretty much defines the social line between children and adults.

GROWTFU social noobs.

 :critter:


-- EDIT --

and BTW if you're sexually harassing the one regular female player we have here, you are a sad, sad person. Go look at youself in the mirror.
Title: Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
Post by: Shotgun on March 08, 2018, 06:12:33 AM
Wow, you guys are so lucky you never played this game during the golden and very competitive years
Title: Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
Post by: tk[as] on March 08, 2018, 07:22:16 AM
"Also TK sexual harassment requiring numerous /dnd /squelch."

i've only sexually harassed you like twice. geez... that's like 20 times less than ive sexually harassed most men on here.
Title: Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
Post by: Lambchops on March 08, 2018, 08:42:18 AM
Wow, you guys are so lucky you never played this game during the golden and very competitive years

hah

been playing since the pre-release demo came out

we are not children any more.

and TBH I though the big-mouths were dicks back then too.
Title: Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
Post by: Lambchops on March 08, 2018, 08:46:23 AM
"Also TK sexual harassment requiring numerous /dnd /squelch."

i've only sexually harassed you like twice. geez... that's like 20 times less than ive sexually harassed most men on here.


My comment was not specifically directed at you, however I'm pretty sure you wouldn't do it if you were sitting in her living room (not more than once anyway ;) ). No need to do it here.



Title: Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
Post by: tk[as] on March 08, 2018, 08:53:15 AM
The whole point of Warcraft 2 is to escape reality. It's the reason we play it. We are not in the real world. We are in the virtual world. And in the virtual world we do and say things we would not normally do and say in the real world. That's just the way it is
Title: Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
Post by: tk[as] on March 08, 2018, 08:57:59 AM
I personally accept the fact that I will also be talked to in a manner online that I would never be talked to in the real world.
Title: Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
Post by: ~ToRa~ on March 08, 2018, 09:17:54 AM
I personally accept the fact that I will also be talked to in a manner online that I would never be talked to in the real world.

Very true.
Title: Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
Post by: tk[as] on March 08, 2018, 09:59:45 AM
Might just be me but I don't ever read anything longer than a paragraph or two on forums (5-10 sentences)

My care factor is not high enough to read posts that long, and definitely not high enough to respond to a post that long.
Title: Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
Post by: woot. on March 08, 2018, 10:01:08 AM
im just surprise van isnt ban from the game...  ??? ;)
Title: Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
Post by: ~ToRa~ on March 08, 2018, 10:08:07 AM
Might just be me but I don't ever read anything longer than a paragraph or two on forums (5-10 sentences)

My care factor is not high enough to read posts that long, and definitely not high enough to respond to a post that long.

Its not just you. Babyshark is mentally ill it’s better not to respond to her. She takes arguments over the internet very seriously.
Title: Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
Post by: tk[as] on March 08, 2018, 10:09:38 AM
I read the first 2 paragraphs.. I get pretty drunk sometimes but I typically don't forget what I did/said while drunk.

I have a hard time believing the claims u made.. I've fucked Around like 2 or 3 times.. But never remember doing what ur talking about
Title: Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
Post by: Antti_Kiviniemi on March 08, 2018, 10:26:35 AM
i dont give a fuck just dont

-try to get me banned by accusing me 300 times of hacking Edit: correction: 100 times is a conservative estimate.

-try to trick me into resuming games to get me banned for ss denial

-dox my IRL, be hostile towards me for half a decade to a decade

-accuse me of creating negative yelp reviews

-get me banned from server and forums because you created false accusations against me

-help spread false rumors about me about me creating yelp reviews

-cheating against me in every way you can imagine and scientifically come up with

-use clickhack against me

-allow players to use clickhack in tournaments

-whisper me insults during tournament finals

-accuse me of things during tournament finals

-disallow me to remove bad watchers during tournament finals

-when asking for admin help disregard my request and start attacking my persona and reputation

-admin says they ban a player for breaking the rules against me while in reality telling the rule breaker to smurf for a week instead of logging on to his account

-attempt to cheat in a tournament final against me but when i have in advance been able to request and therefore enforce cheat detection methods you instead of playing me you disappear and after that actively try to invalidate my tournament victory

-lose to me in a serie and after that systematically start creating rumors about me being a hacker

-accept my challenge for a master tag serie, lose to me 1-4, then refuse to transfer your master tag to me

-lose to me in a serie, then start publicly saying how you won a serie against me


thats off the top of my head.
Title: Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
Post by: Cel on March 08, 2018, 10:44:08 AM
Yes virtual world true true, yet again most online applications, games, game communities, sites,  irc chats, have terms of use.
Not all have the same level of control, but there is a reason they all have terms of use.

Terms of use is a way to build up a common ground for a community you will find in most case they do make sure that members have the best experience possible from the start by setting the minimal amount of limits that allow the most people to feel at home.

When you say you tolerate anything you are saying you don't care if your members do use your platform for expressing their racial hate and all of that crap.
What if a user uses your platform for child porn diffusion and abuse? What then so you tolerate that too? Humans are capable of being awesome beings but they also can behave very badly.

Not having terms of use is just making it super hard to build a community because it is damaging it at the same time. Think about it, every time a new user is going to look at what that one mentally retarded guy has to says in the general channel or even whispers him them there is a lot of chances that this guy will just assume we all are like this because we basically tolerate it.

This is about the fact that even if these retarded people represent less than 1% of the community, one of them that we tolerate does more damage than anything we do to help the community grow.

All I am saying is I don't care about single isolated cases here, I look at the big picture and honestly if we are to help war2.ru grow and get more players we might as well start there.
You don't build a community around hate talks, anarchy and chaos.
You've got to give people something they want to be a part of and a place they want to settle in and where they feel at home.

The best way to do that is encouraging positive attitudes and exchanges, fair play, fun and making sure that interactions cannot be too damaging having terms of use gives a nice common ground that ensure that exchanges cannot be too destructive between players and for the community as a whole.

In short if you have "Welcome" written on your door step people might feel better about getting in and talking to you than if it is something like "death to all jews and niggas" simple as that.
Title: Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
Post by: Certified MENSA Genius Brain (smart) on March 08, 2018, 11:13:31 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DW18h2zWkAAhp7m.jpg)
Title: Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
Post by: Igognito on March 08, 2018, 11:49:41 AM
Harassment

In general, social behavior on the server is dealt with at the user-level.  When encountering unwanted messages from others, a user may choose to simply not listen, use the /squelch command, use the /dnd command, or ban the offending user from their games as necessary. 

However, occasionally harassment may arise, at which point administrators will step in.  Harassment will be considered to have taken place when a user makes a routine of bothering another user across multiple gaming sessions, and does in a persistent manner such that usual responses, such as typing /squelch once time each log-in session, fail to adequately handle the issue.

When a user is committing harassment, they will be warned by administrators, and failure to correct their behavior will lead to a ban.

I feel that this is not enough :-/

Honestly if we could just get people to grow-tf-up.

If you are a racist, a classist, a misogynist, a homophobe, a biggot or have any other socially unacceptable disorder then:

  A) definately don't stream it.
  B) don't inflict it on random players ESPECIALLY newbs.
  C) preferably keep it out of chat and this forum alltogether.
  D) regardless of you own private opinion, unless you are actually at a KKK meeting, seriously consider keeping it out of all social interactions with all human beings and you may discover that you have more friends.

I think I will agree with the above statements!

I believe we need a concrete and clear policy for Harassment. The punishments do not necessary need to be heavy but we do need to draw some lines.

Lambchops is at the right direction here!

We have some usual perps in the server. A few years ago when I started, they where a reason for me to actually abandon the server, I only stayed because of people like Smeagol, Xurnt, Lordvaras, TGS, Babyshark, Kintel, Sandman, KGBAgent (which I haven't seen for a while :-/) and many others.

There are plenty of nice people in the server, much more than the nasty few that needs to be educated. The problem is the few people that harass they get to appear active and to send people away.
Title: Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
Post by: Certified MENSA Genius Brain (smart) on March 08, 2018, 11:52:01 AM
doing more gets tricky as then people will all start reporting each other for flaming or w/e and admins will have to take a very active role, and will be constantly accused of playing favorites, and many people object to having these standards to begin with.  obviously we do not want van calling people the n word or babyshark talking about gay people going to hell, but it's tricky, some people would probably get mad if babyshark were banned for that, or some people would ask, well, why is she banned for that but this guy called me a fag, or this person said suck my dick, or this person raxed me and someone said i got "gayed"

that is why i support a policy where we act if the messaging is intrusive to the point that it is hard to block out and avoid, basically spammy in nature, ie the policy that tora has posted here.  that way we are not in charge of policing everything people say, and dont claim to, but also, no user can be constantly attacked in a way that theyre unable to easily mute or squelch to avoid.  so that they can still have a peaceful time playing with friends without being attacked
Title: Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
Post by: Igognito on March 08, 2018, 12:03:16 PM
This is all about drawing the lines :-)
I agree that some tolerance should exist but the points of lambchop where on the spot!

I would certainly put a rule in the following lines:

When your or someone is knowingly streaming (for example Xurnt) do not express your "hate" and do not verbally abuse.
As streaming remains online, this is easy to be verified when reported and can easily be punishable.

This also can work as a defensive measure!
PlayerX streams, when someone starts abusing, PlayerX just needs to state that is streaming and that they should remain civil. If not then the needed evidence for imposing the punishment is there.

Of course, cases with SS can also work as evidence but that is more cumbersome to impose and manage for the admins so the policy can be less direct.

A similar rule could apply for the forum.
Title: Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
Post by: ~ToRa~ on March 08, 2018, 12:12:46 PM
Why can’t the streamer just ban the person?
Title: Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
Post by: Igognito on March 08, 2018, 12:45:52 PM
Clearly because the verbal abuse started in game and not before.
Also, banning a player from 1 game is not a solution. /ignore is more or less a solution.

Many times, when I leave a game because of verbal harassment people keep send me messages.
I even had one player that logged out and logged in with a different name in order to by pass the /ignore...

This is a problem that needs to be handled by the admins.
The how is not exactly clear and I agree that we do not want to be banning people just for calling us names.
But there is a notable bulling problem in the server and we should do something about it.

I'm not expecting that we will reach a server that we will all be polite to each other... I wouldn't dare dreaming that.
Can you imagine van never bulling anyone??? Darn, that simply wouldn't be war2 anymore...

But I believe we must also draw a line to the bullies...
Title: Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
Post by: ~ToRa~ on March 08, 2018, 02:07:57 PM
Many times, when I leave a game because of verbal harassment people keep send me messages.
I even had one player that logged out and logged in with a different name in order to by pass the /ignore...

Did you use /ignore or /dnd?
Title: Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
Post by: Szwagier on March 08, 2018, 03:05:24 PM
https://giphy.com/gifs/finale-big-brother-bb15-ygqMjv2x8KSxW
jajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajaja
Title: Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
Post by: Cel on March 08, 2018, 03:12:34 PM
As I said it is not about one isolated case of one guy annoying a streamer or a new player it is the fact that unlike anywhere else these behaviors are tolerated.

It is quite easy to see when someone cross the line one ss and you have your nasty comment immortalized pretty much.

The thing is people are less likely to say nasty things that don't belong there if they know they can get banned for it in the first place.
Most of the time these people would never say something like that anywhere else for that exact reason.

I am a new player I log in I see heated and full of hatred racist and antisemitic talk on the general chat what do you think most people's next move is?
Its always the same with rules rules can be considered as limiting one's freedom true they also make sure that one person's action wont ruin other's experience.

Again It is about having a welcoming environment for new people.
About strengthening the community as a whole and providing an environment that is healthy for gaming and fun and where people feel safe to stay and even let their kid play.

I mean it is quite simple to do the link a lot of people came to my stream chat saying the community is horrible, I say it is time we do something about that.
Why should we tolerate a few disgusting members to have such a bad impact and draw such a nasty image of our community.

Imagine if other platforms like steam had no terms of use on their community's pages and all.

The problem is they are not just flagging themselves we all pay the price of these behaviors.
Its not about banning more people its about providing a set of rules that will eventually avoid problems to appear in the first place.

Also it is not about doing something new, Battle.net used to have terms of use.
Here is what they say on blizzard's website about harrasment:
Spoiler
Disruption / Harassment: Engage in any conduct designed or intended to disrupt or diminish the game experience for other players, or to disrupt operation of Blizzard’s Platform in any way, including the following:
Disrupting or assisting in the disruption of (i) any computer used to support the Platform or any Game environment; or (ii) any other player’s Game experience. ANY ATTEMPT BY YOU TO DISRUPT THE PLATFORM OR UNDERMINE THE LEGITIMATE OPERATION OF ANY GAME MAY BE A VIOLATION OF CRIMINAL AND CIVIL LAWS.
Harassing, griefing, abusive behavior or chat, deliberately poor teamwork intended to undermine other players’ experiences, deliberate inactivity or disconnecting, and/or any other activity which violates Blizzard’s Code of Conduct or In-Game Policies.

Here their code of conduct:
https://us.battle.net/support/en/article/42673
Title: Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
Post by: WyZe on March 08, 2018, 04:09:56 PM
You could be as racist, sexist, whatever as you wanted on Battle.net, there was no enforcement and therefor no punishment. Pretty bad example.

If someone logs on, sees something they don't like and runs away... who cares, honestly. A 'welcoming environment' isn't going to keep people around, you're either going to like the game and keep playing or not.

If you're experience is ruined by words, well fuck, I don't know what to say. Should have grown up on the internet in the 90's I guess.
Title: Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
Post by: Cel on March 08, 2018, 04:39:43 PM
Not true at all, there were bans for breaking the code of conduct I've seen some back in the days. And there are still today.

Most of the time people used to make racist jokes and sometime even be disgusting without meaning it just for the fun of it and usually this was understood as is and or people would talk to each other and resolve the issue between them.

But if players reported an abuse it was followed by actions usually the player would receive a warning  followed by a ban most of the time temporary if the abuse wasn't too grave.
But sometimes they would be forever bans when it was a player that just wouldn't learn.

Yes admins were not all over the place reading logs and all to enforce the rules to the letter. No one has the time for that and it wouldn't be nice either no one wants to live in a police state.
But they would just step in if an abuse was reported that is all we need.

Most people back in the days would just not take the time to report small transgressions and were forgiving and understood what was part of a joke so I understand if felt that way.

It is not because you set rules that everyone will constantly report people that break them they will take the time to report if the abuse is too damaging and the guy does not stop after being warned, usually if players take that time it means something it should have consequences.

Again it works the same today blizzard rarely bans people just when they repeatedly cross the line but at least there is a line and people know they have a way to end it if it goes too far.

Of course this is not about having admin use the ban hammers all the time it is about agreeing on a general code of conduct between
us.

Just so people can say things like: "Stop harassing me or I will report you for this and there will be actions taken."
Most of the time that will be enough the guy will stop because if it has consequences then yes people will behave.
Title: Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
Post by: WyZe on March 08, 2018, 04:52:09 PM
if you're being harassed /dnd /squelch, etc. should be more than enough. if you're getting really butthurt about it step away from the computer and all your 'problems' are solved.
Title: Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
Post by: Cel on March 08, 2018, 05:00:54 PM
Next time you see a person trying to get a child's real address for obvious disgusting reasons and you are here looking and crossing your arms saying parents should be ok to just squelch the guy and move on: think about if it was your child that was playing the game that day.

I could go on and on and on, you can defend yourself that is good. Now does that mean we should behave like animals and not care for others that could be weaker and more vulnerable?
Title: Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
Post by: WyZe on March 08, 2018, 05:04:47 PM
Never seen such a thing happen in the first place. Also, when I was 12 the rules of the internet were simple; don't tell anyone your real name, don't tell anyone where you live, don't tell anyone anything about you, pretty good logic to live by.
Title: Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
Post by: Cel on March 08, 2018, 05:16:37 PM
Well see not so long ago someone's child was harassed on the server check up that forum historic.

So yes it may happen.
Yet again you seem to be proud that you were given the tools to defend yourself guess what back in the days your parents had ways they could report such a thing if it happened on battle.net.
So that is one example that is a bad example sorry to say.

I say we are human we live in society we should make sure the environment is safe for its members right now war2.ru is a dangerous place to let a child play.
It can be also very aggressive toward minorities, do we want to stay that way to basically say if you are not strong enough just get out? Since when do you have to be a white supremacist and neo-nazi to feel at home and comfortable in a video game?
Title: Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
Post by: WyZe on March 08, 2018, 05:35:57 PM
.
Yet again you seem to be proud that you were given the tools to defend yourself guess what back in the days your parents had ways they could report such a thing if it happened on battle.net.
So that is one example that is a bad example sorry to say.

My parents didn't and still don't have any idea what battle.net is. So that is one example that is a bad example sorry to say.

I say we are human we live in society we should make sure the environment is safe for its members right now war2.ru is a dangerous place to let a child play.


No, it's not. I wouldn't hesitate to let my kid play on war2.ru if he wanted to. Facebook/Youtube/Twitter/Instagram are infinitely more dangerous than war2.ru for example yet they are all used by children.

It can be also very aggressive toward minorities, do we want to stay that way to basically say if you are not strong enough just get out? Since when do you have to be a white supremacist and neo-nazi to feel at home and comfortable in a video game?

If someone wants to be a black supremacist or Turkish supremacist on war2.ru I say let them do it too, then the white people that aren't strong enough can feel uncomfortable too.
Title: Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
Post by: Cel on March 08, 2018, 06:13:03 PM
Well your parents didn't have to know because nothing happened and nothing happened maybe because there were rules and well defined limits that is the point.

If we do what you say which we already do one group will eventually prevail and the others wont want to stay this is called cultural domination (as very well described by sociologists like Bourdieu).

The idea here is to prevent these destructive interactions as a way of strengthening the community.
Making sure no group of people is able to dominate and eliminate less aggressive and more peaceful ones. Without rules only the boldest the strongest and the most aggressive cultures survives.

If we want to bring back nice people of all levels playing the game we should make sure that they won't just be pushed away when they arrive.
Otherwise let's just say we give up on that too...
Title: Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
Post by: Lambchops on March 08, 2018, 06:46:23 PM
Its not just you. Babyshark is mentally ill it’s better not to respond to her. She takes arguments over the internet very seriously.

That's a pretty inappropriate thing to say, I am a bit dissappointed.

I think everyone here could be categorized as a bit mental. We all take internet games far too seriously.

When you are starting an official thread as an admin which basically states that the policy is "If I think it's bad enough I'll do somthing about it", to then single out a player in that same thread with a comment like this is quite startling. I realise the two of you don't get along but considering your position and the context, in my mind you have just dramatically strengthened some of BabyShark's assertions about you.

 I have normally found you to be much more reasonable than this, we all have bad moments, I think this was one of yours.
Title: Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
Post by: Lambchops on March 08, 2018, 08:20:55 PM
Again It is about having a welcoming environment for new people
../..
Why should we tolerate a few disgusting members to have such a bad impact and draw such a nasty image of our community.
../..
The problem is they are not just flagging themselves we all pay the price of these behaviors..

Yes.

To those who want to keep banging on about the "glory days", its a bit like saying "it was great back in the stone age when you could just hit your neighbour with a rock".

I remember those days, they were a fantastic time. Early battle.net and specifically WC2 was in my mind the birth of the global community. IMHO it is significant in the history of the human race.

Before fb or twitter or any of that stuff it was the first time in the history of mankind that 100,000 humans from all over the world were communicating in the same virtual community.

It was lawless, exhilarating and totally amazing. I get glassy-eyed just thinking about it, but the global community has evolved.

Do we want to continue to exist as a community or as a museum piece? We are in danger of ending up as a small collection of wax-dummies that is little more than a parody of a memory.


Title: Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
Post by: Shotgun on March 08, 2018, 10:06:16 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DW18h2zWkAAhp7m.jpg)
lol
Title: Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
Post by: Igognito on March 15, 2018, 11:16:07 AM
https://www.facebook.com/david.travis.908/videos/1561877193847781/ (https://www.facebook.com/david.travis.908/videos/1561877193847781/)
That is an amazing respond :-P
ps: no need for the gun to be real :-P
Title: Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
Post by: Ywfn on March 15, 2018, 01:18:42 PM
Yea, pulling a gun on someone for talking shit is awesome.
Title: Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
Post by: ~ToRa~ on March 16, 2018, 09:56:13 PM
After 1 and half weeks the votes are in.

War2ru's current policy on harassment stands.

Harassment

In general, social behavior on the server is dealt with at the user-level.  When encountering unwanted messages from others, a user may choose to simply not listen, use the /squelch command, use the /dnd command, or ban the offending user from their games as necessary. 

However, occasionally harassment may arise, at which point administrators will step in.  Harassment will be considered to have taken place when a user makes a routine of bothering another user across multiple gaming sessions, and does in a persistent manner such that usual responses, such as typing /squelch once time each log-in session, fail to adequately handle the issue.

When a user is committing harassment, they will be warned by administrators, and failure to correct their behavior will lead to a ban.


Harassment is to be handled at the user level not the admin level.
Title: Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
Post by: Igognito on March 17, 2018, 12:51:40 PM
Yea, pulling a gun on someone for talking shit is awesome.
Well a fake gun... More like a psychological gun rather than a real one :-P

Lets be honest, there are many forms of violence. And verbal violence is one that is not being handled properly.
Cheers
Title: Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
Post by: ~ToRa~ on March 17, 2018, 07:35:48 PM
Lets be honest, there are many forms of violence. And verbal violence is one that is not being handled properly.
Cheers

The poll shows the majority is happy with the current policies regarding "verbal violence."
Title: Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
Post by: Cel on March 17, 2018, 08:34:20 PM
The poll shows what it shows not more not less:

Out of around 200 players active in the community 17 took part (it represents 8.5% of the total sample).
Not to mention these players are the most active players which are still playing and are not going to be the most vulnerable or the ones that would benefit from a change in policy.
Actually they are the most likely to go against any change because so far they are the ones who survived the best with these rules.

But non the less lets look further on these results shall we, numbers can be story telling:
47% of these very engaged and unmovable veterans voted they are "happy" with the current state of things they represent an impressive 4% of the player base but not even 50% of the most resilient players that took part to the poll.

Meaning we have 3% that still cared and though it would change anything 1.5% didn't care or though it was one more useless poll.

Most importantly 91.15% did not take part.

The majority look indeed overwhelming and satisfying enough for some of us to close the debate and shut people up it appears.
I would say it looks even worse than our last presidential election that medias said was not significant and satisfying as "only 45% of the population took part" yup now with our awesome 8.5% of active players expressing themselves I would say that is some next level legitimacy.

Amazing how fast people are willing to take everything coming their way and make it look like it is more than it really is.

8 individuals that took part could be you your dad your two brothers, your 2 closest friends and two renowned and active bullies (Saying these are legit players would not really change anything given the numbers).

But I am pretty sure you would like to believe there is no bias here as they represent pretty much the global population of our server at its core especially the ones that would benefit the most from the change :thumbsup:

ps: I took 200 as the number of active members if we take the 960+ members that are registered on the forum these numbers look even better how about that: 0.083% of our forum members think things are great and should not change yay now shut the fuck up we are all happy I don't want to hear anything on that matter no more!

At this point why even make a poll at all, just make your decisions alone, say you just don't care what others think/say but don't try to make it look like your decisions are legit and widely supported to shut people up when really it looks that bad, this is just insulting.
Title: Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
Post by: ~ToRa~ on March 17, 2018, 11:21:14 PM
Out of around 200 players active in the community 17 took part (it represents 8.5% of the total sample).

You are greatly exaggerating the number of players. There are around 25-50 active players with 50-100 inactive players.
It’s not unreasonable to say that the poll is an accurate assessment of what the majority of the community wants.
Title: Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
Post by: XuRnT on March 18, 2018, 12:07:03 AM
I rather it be userbased but I think there are thousands more players then what you are counting here.
Title: Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
Post by: XuRnT on March 18, 2018, 12:12:18 AM
Just get rid of all the rules ill give you common sense who needs to go and who dont. ;)
Title: Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
Post by: Cel on March 18, 2018, 12:42:01 AM
@~ToRa~
I am pretty sure you didn't read what I wrote up there for you to answer something like that...

Or you genuinely do not understand what the point was which is understandable since for you 47% in a 17 people week poll is a good enough sign that all is for the best the way it is and things should not be discussed anymore...

I am sorry to say it is unreasonable to say that 8 person represent that much, even if we say that we care only about the 25 persons you talk about.

I guess it is to be expected of a group of individuals that respond that badly to change, but still, saying you don't want to hear what Igognito has to say because of a 1 week poll that 17 people participated on is quite ridiculous.
Especially since it was not even 50% said that things are ok as they are and even then that would still be ridiculous...

So if you want to shut people's mouth up just don't use awfully self made numbers they simply do not back you up...
Just because you are allergic to change does not justify to shut @Igognito or anyone up when they try to find a solution to something that a significant part of your 25 remaining members say is a problem.

LOL 25 active players now that is some next level community...

Now considering your numbers:

Talk about things being perfect when you have 25 members and the few new players that you talk to all say that even though they love the game the environment is just too hostile each of these players that gave up on you represents 4% of your happy community.
13 of them represent more than half of what you have now tell me there is nothing to talk about and that everything is perfect as it is.

Accurate assessment of what you and 7 people including bullies want yes then again you are happy with your 25 members community if you want people to stay in that community and have more than 8 active members in the end maybe you should start listening to what they have to say before shutting them up because you and 7 others think there is no place for discussion...

Yet again it is not about perma-banning more people it is about giving a direction helping people to behave and stop hurting each others and ultimately the community...
Title: Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
Post by: ~ToRa~ on March 18, 2018, 12:49:31 AM
^^The majority of the players don’t want people banned for trash talking. That has been the consensus for years now.
Players do want hackers to be banned which is why the SS rules are enforced.
However trash talking has never been seen as a banable offense

Your insisting that the community wants people banned for trash talking based off what?
Title: Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
Post by: Cel on March 18, 2018, 01:19:57 AM
Just get rid of all the rules ill give you common sense who needs to go and who dont. ;)
Common sense rules are pretty much what battle.net's code of conduct is all about. Just a set of global direction that pretty much give incentives it is rarely followed by bans because, when it is out there, people tend to behave and also forgive more :-)

@~ToRa~ Just stop saying majority when you talk about 25 people over all the people that gave war2.ru a chance it is just ridiculous.

Read my previous answer especially the last sentence about banning people clearly you missed something...

Read my previous answer about why I believe something is a significant issue and should at least be discussed freely and with an open mind.

Also:
players don’t want people banned for trash talking. That has been the consensus for years now.
However trash talking has never been seen as a banable offense

Given the fact that you estimate your remaining active players to be around 25-50 players I can only imagine how well it worked out for you so far.

You know the  Allegory of the cave?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegory_of_the_Cave

This is what I believe is happening here.
I am not saying you should just accept everything other people say I say you should let them at least express themselves and keep an open mind.
Title: Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
Post by: ~ToRa~ on March 18, 2018, 01:30:41 AM
War2ru is not battle net. Saying “battle net and other gaming platforms ban people for racism and derogatory comments towards minorities,” isn’t a good enough reason for it to be done on this gaming platform.
This poll isn’t the 1st poll in regards to harassment on the server. There have been discussions on the subject for over 10 years. It has been decided again and again the community doesn’t want more punishments handed down.
Title: Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
Post by: ~ToRa~ on March 18, 2018, 01:49:34 AM
Also I would like to add the reason we have a small player base has less to do with the toxicity of the community and more to do with the learning curb of the game.
That and the fact this game is over 20 years old and has limited updates.
Title: Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
Post by: Cel on March 18, 2018, 03:00:38 AM
Now yet again my main point is for you to respect other people ideas and keep an open mind and not act like there is nothing to be said or done when people are expressing a different point of view.

-About more punishment being handed down again look up previous answers.
-About why these polls and your policy for over 10 years could be wrong look previous answers too and specifically the allegory of the cave.

More on that last point if all polls and discussions went like this I can easily see why no changes were  ever made in the past 10 years no offense here but the way you react to change proposals are pretty much self explanatory...

You believe the game is too hard to learn ok that is your point of view.
Now consider people may think differently for example:
That if that was the case maybe people would not say they would love to play if people weren't so toxic.
Or that maybe if the game was that hard that would mean we all are just geniuses to play this utterly complicated game at this unreachable level?
Look at them geniuses talking for a minute and try not to laugh at yourself for thinking that could be the case.

Now bare with me as I am going to go over what I believe:
I believe this game is the simplest strategy game ever made, both to take in hands and to enjoy at any skill levels.
That I believe is because it is the essence of a real time strategy game with no extra features and complicated mechanics just the basics plain and simple.
It is to me the definition of easy to get into and hard to master. Much easier to get into than say Starcraft 2 there is so little to learn to get started.
You say the game looks too old I say people freaking play modern games that look older and uglier than that.
And also that a lot of old games that were never updated still are being played and enjoyed by people that are not even good at them.

But all this is what I believe I could be completely wrong and because of that I accept your opinion maybe the game being old has something to do with it.
Now I am not telling you what to think and what to say I am showing you that we can have different point of views on things and respect each others opinions.

Say you are right and the game is too old then if there is nothing special about it:
-Why do we keep playing it then?
-Whether we ask people to behave or not then the player base is going to leave anyway as the game and its players are getting older?

If there is on the other hand something good and special about it:
-Then why other people wont see it and stay?
-Why people that do see it eventually leave? Do they all just get tired of the game?
-Do you think people leave because they feel they are too bad? I agree! What then makes them feel that it matters and they have to be good to enjoy the game? What are the signs we as a community give them that makes them feel they cannot casually enjoy/play the game? What can we do to try and change that so that people stick around until they are good?

If the game being old and too hard to learn is the only reason for you that people leave then there is nothing to be done the player base is going to drop in any case right?

Now if we consider for one little moment that some of us might be right saying players being toxic is one of the reasons people leave or stop playing.

Then something can be done and what do we risk really in the end to act? Like for real lets have a look at what we loose if it comes to banning someone that we would not have banned otherwise (and I mean after all warnings and all that shit):

-We should be morning some very toxic guy that is not even willing to behave a bit better to help the game not die out? Because he does not like another member?
-Was that guy that cannot just ignore/respect fellow players even worth it he was worth what exactly you enjoy being harassed and reading disgusting chat in game that much?
-If the game is dying anyway well if he is in that position it was him or the other guy maybe even silent others that just didn't take the time to say something in the forum and rather left because yeah the game is not that fresh anymore?
-How many people are we willing to give up just so that one guy can feel at home being toxic and insulting/harassing everyone else?

And this is not even considering that they could and mostly would start to behave because of the new rules.

So yeah if I am right we have little to loose and potentially a lot to win.
If I am wrong we risk loosing some very very positive beings and hours of pure fun reading general chat... Oh and yeah the game would utterly die but that as you said we can't do anything about. If there was a solution we would have found it and done it 10 years ago right, obviously these things are so easy to discuss I cannot see how we would have missed it... (:
 
:critter:
Title: Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
Post by: Antti_Kiviniemi on March 18, 2018, 07:00:05 AM
Edit: I think what in this post I edited out was guided by flawed logic and therefore I wish to remove its contents.
Title: Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
Post by: Lambchops on March 18, 2018, 07:48:44 AM
It's very hard to make RULES about people being assholes. Sometimes it's even appropriate for a player to say something negative to another player. There can be cases of baiting, where troublemakers deliberatly taunt another player to get them to say something 'illegal' so they can report them... etc.

... in any case such rules tend to be SUBJECTIVE anyway, which means that the admins have to adjudicate on a case by case basis anyway - which ends up being pretty much what we have already.

That being said I would like to say that:

  A) Yes there is some really toxic attitude - i believe too much
  B) I'm sure it is a contributing factor to people leaving the game - it definately makes me log off sometimes
  C) I trust that the admins actually are trying to reduce this rubbish. It is bad, and it is a problem.


.... but back in 1998 blah blah blah ...

 ...people who wre BORN in '98 are now turning 20. It's a different world and a different internet, and if I was a kid I wouldn't want to play a game and get abused by a bunch of fat old assholes.



Title: Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
Post by: Antti_Kiviniemi on March 18, 2018, 08:43:24 AM
It could be that some problems are not solvable by creation of rules.

And I think I was a child back in the day when I cared about the community. Now I need to put my old ideas to rest and move on. Everyone has the tools for defending themselves.

The only reason I've suffered in the past by the actions of the toxic community members has been because I've allowed it to happen.
Title: Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
Post by: ~ToRa~ on March 18, 2018, 09:26:06 AM
Now yet again my main point is for you to respect other people ideas and keep an open mind and not act like there is nothing to be said or done when people are expressing a different point of view.

Your welcome to express your own view points on this issue. I’ll read what you have to say and respond accordingly.
 
Title: Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
Post by: LTFan on March 18, 2018, 10:13:36 AM
Trash talking is a part of the game. What needs to be moderated is the cancer to this community who literally just log on to be assholes to every single person they see whether they know who it is or not. That kind of behavior has no place in any sort of society and is a huge reason people dont log on anymore. Take me for example. I get tired of logging on and seeing the same 2 people repeatedly being terrible human beings to every single person in chat. So do not moderate trash talking but get rid of the cancers of our community.
Title: Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
Post by: Cel on March 18, 2018, 10:50:01 AM
I think both you Tora being worried we would ban/drive away from the game more of our members, and Igognito saying we should care that there are some behaviors that hurt our community which could be addressed better are both legitimate concerns that should be taken into account for that matter.

First off I would like to underline that my point about battle.net was that it could be a start to look for other successful communities to see if there is a way they handle thing that we could inspire ourselves from to handle our own problems better without damaging what we already have. It is not about applying their rules to our server blindly.

I dont think we should instantly permaban every single transgressions, that would be kinda insane given our few members and how persistent some of our members can be when they go at it.
It could be more like counting the number of times a player is being so toxic that others take the time to report him and if that count becomes too high (like say 5 players reported him over 5 different issues), then we should look what it is all about using logs or other pieces of evidence we have and if appears that indeed the guy is clearly being toxic and oversteps we would punish him starting from a symbolic very small duration ban and punish further transgressions harder until either he stops or gets a very very long bans.

That could be one way of doing things I am not saying its the one way we should do it I say that is one way I can think of that could work. Maybe there are better ways out there like community tribunals (some games use that)  etc... This is what discussions are for maybe we can come up with something great of our own adapted to our own issues.

We could for example start by establishing a list of behaviors that we think are both pretty easy to stop doing for them bullies in one hand and that are damaging our community and driving people away in the other hand. Like how hard that would really be for oneself to stop harassing players with insults every time they log into the game?
For real is that to much to ask, for a member of our community to try and just be nice to others or at least not be too toxic so that we can still have some people to play with in like 20 years from now? :P
Shouldn't they be willing to do so in the first place?
It is a little effort for a common improved welfare right?
Like say: to avoid harassing others using racist and/or antisemitic insults over and over how big of an effort do you think that is to ask from our members? Would that be too much?

Because it really should be about that shouldn't it?
Trying to maximize the fun of the many at a minimal cost for the rest.

 :critter:

As a matter of fact I pretty much agree with LTFan on that one.
Title: Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
Post by: mousEtopher on March 18, 2018, 07:06:14 PM
Cel makes decent points about the poll not being representative, esp when you consider the newbs who show up briefly and are almost immediately driven away by abuse & exclusion; that figure is easily in the high dozens and likely some hundreds over all the years. but i still think the stated policy is the only one that's really practical to enforce -- pvpgn moderation tools are too outdated & easy to circumvent + it's too time consuming to do for volunteer admins esp for the reasons lamby said.

there's a very clear demarcation between the two types of players, old generation that enjoys gratuitous saltiness & new generation that is more geared towards friendliess, fun & tolerance. rather than trying to forcefully integrate these two types of players by policing behavior on ru, it's always seemed more sensible to me to just segregate the two types altogether, e.g. direct new players towards war2.me or the ru backup server to play & avoid the hateful environment altogether. this would be hard to get off the ground though & would take some dedicated arranging times to play in advance, advertising to get new people to show up at those times, etc. to gradually build up the initial population from scratch. imo it's probably the only realistic way to cultivate a stable population of new players though & would make it much more possible to enforce niceness standards + wouldn't interfere with the regular players.
Title: Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
Post by: Igognito on March 18, 2018, 09:14:11 PM
hmmm there are many difficult problems here.

First of all, I agree that the poll is not representative at all.
Second, I agree that ban might not be the best punishment.
Third, I do believe that we need to make a concrete policy for what is considered unacceptable.
Fourth and very important for me, we need to communicate better to the new players.
Fifth, Protect the new players by being stricter when someone harasses them!

Suggested solutions:
for 2) My suggestion: in the line of Cel, we make a SS policy that someone can report toxic behavior (just reporting has no punishment) but after a few reports (like 5 from different players) then the case is automatically going to be examined and if valid punished. After a month we can make a report to auto expire... Saying like you have 5 times to be toxic in the server for free...
We need to discuss the punishments for harassment. I'm more in favor of fame punishments rather than banning.
I like the idea of repeating punishment saying in the lobby: WARNING: Player XXX repetitively harasses, please use \ignore XXX.

for 3) Yes war2 always come with some toxicity and I think none of us here spoke about the provoking swearing... We are talking about harassment that is over the limits.
Take for example van. Van is toxic but I would never report him. I actually play with him and expect him to be toxic, I even want him to be toxic because I know it is van!
But we know that van shit talks to all of us and it is just his behavior of telling you he likes you :-P
When van doesn't shit talk to you is like darn he doesnt want to speak to me... lol
But then there are some people that start swearing to u like if you insulted whatever is more sacred to them. That is unacceptable. Difficult to define but unacceptable.

for 4)  We need to write a nice text with the policy for hacking and for harassing and have it easy to access for new and old players. Like a welcome message. Possibly given by a Bot that u can ask stuff. In practice we need to give access to the tools that the new players can use to be protected.

for 5) We can allow old players to defend new players (submit a ss for them). Also we can have a more severe punishment if you harass a new player (defined by common reason)

Cheers
Title: Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
Post by: Cel on March 19, 2018, 04:02:23 AM
Personally some level of trash talking and saltiness is fine like last tournament Van being savage and explaining how to quit the game when he wins is savage and even can be quite entertaining and fun to be honest I had a good laugh.

The line to not cross I guess if I had to name it would be direct, targeted and uncensored racist/homophobic insults after games in the channels. I literally had to scroll up so my stream would not have the time to read all that crap. That was too much and I am pretty sure we all know the difference.
I mean I am pretty sure anyone can see the difference between being unfriendly, savage and salty versus promoting racial hate, antisemitic insults or homophobic violence even if it is for fun the problem is new players they do not see that, they do not know you, they first see you and all they might take the time to see about you could be just that.

Igognito is right I do not want to ban Van for saying these things I want him and these players to understand the difference and to try to not cross the line as much as possible.

Because I am pretty sure in the end we have a common goal everyone wants to have more people on the server.

Now I don't know what is easy to do I was proposing short bans but yeah it is as useless as it sounds and maybe hard to do. The thing is at least we put it out there and from all of these imagined solutions maybe one can be applied.

So in the best of the worlds I would see a soft punishment like the following:
One cool way would be if we could like mute a player by default :D
Say a player X is muted for having crossed the line then to talk with him by default you would have to unmute him manually until the mute duration is passed. its not a ban and would be more directly targeted and honestly I find it quite fun too :))
Seemed to me like a harder thing to do even if seems like a better and more targeted solution but lets put it out here we never know maybe it helps finding a suitable and more doable solution...

Or/and preventive solutions:
One of the non-punishing preventive solutions would be to have filters like some games do by default and players can remove them if they want. (you know the good old stars ****)
That usually takes care of most of the big bad words and stuff people do not want their kid to see.

IDK this to me also seem like one of the hard to implement solutions but hey, lets put it on the table too we never know and it does not hurt to have a look at it.

 :critter:
Title: Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
Post by: Lambchops on March 19, 2018, 04:16:57 AM
Take for example van. Van is toxic but I would never report him. I actually play with him and expect him to be toxic, I even want him to be toxic because I know it is van!

Igognito is right I do not want to ban Van for saying these things I want him and these players to understand the difference and to try to not cross the line as much as possible.

WTF? You say you want people who repeatedly harass people punished ..... but not van because he does it all the time?

WHAT??

The guy is toxic and abusive, but he's YOUR friend so its ok? No it's not.
Title: Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
Post by: Cel on March 19, 2018, 05:02:51 AM
Well as I said the point is less about how to ban/punish him and/or others than to make him/them stop crossing the line (that yet has to be defined).
Now if it takes bans to make him understand where the line is I am not against it I am just saying I am open for better targeted solutions if we can afford them.

Remember though this is not about one person I only picked Van as an example because the example was fresh in my mind.
But he is not the only one, it would be unfair to just pick on one guy as if he was the only reason we have a problem.
If it wasn't Van it  would be someone else as long as there are no defined limits.
Van is not the source of the disease he is a symptom. :P

 :critter:
Title: Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
Post by: Lambchops on March 19, 2018, 05:47:45 AM
Van is not the source of the disease he is a symptom.

So far as I know him he has just attacked me with literally zero provocation just because I made a general post about etiquette on this forum. That make him absolutely a major source in my experience. Since then many people have said to me "oh that's just van he does it to everyone". To which my reply is ok well then screw him and the horse he rode in on.

But anyway, my position on this topic remains that we don't need another set of rules to argue over, we just need it to be generally accepted that being an asshole is not ok. Everyone has bad days or occasional arguments, but being continually toxic all the time is not ok.

By the sounds of things van is the epitome of the exact type of behavior we don't want. It's not cute or quirky or that's just van, it's a serial toxic abuser.... and the horse he rode in on.
Title: Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
Post by: easycompany on March 19, 2018, 06:23:49 AM
20 years from now :o 2038 :o :o :o most of us will be like clint eastwood from gran torino by then.
Title: Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
Post by: Lambchops on March 19, 2018, 08:22:08 AM
20 years from now :o 2038 :o :o :o most of us will be like clint eastwood from gran torino by then.

You mean after a lifetime of being abusive racist assholes we will finally do one selfless thing then die?

Cool, I look forward to that post...
Title: Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
Post by: ~ToRa~ on March 19, 2018, 08:48:33 AM
WTF? You say you want people who repeatedly harass people punished ..... but not van because he does it all the time?

WHAT??

The guy is toxic and abusive, but he's YOUR friend so its ok? No it's not.

Lol that's the thing, if we were to enforce rules the way some players on this thread are advocating regular players like van would inevitably be banned.
Title: Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
Post by: Ywfn on March 19, 2018, 09:48:00 AM
While I wouldn't really object to a kinder, more accepting atmosphere, I'm opposed to increased censorship measures to regulate asshole behavior as a practical matter for three primary reasons:
1. As already mentioned in this thread, I worry about the unintended consequences for otherwise mild players getting baited in to an argument.
2. The status quo has been established for so long--many current players being part of the community for a decade or longer, that I think change would be difficult for some.
3. While I get that slippery slope is a named argument fallacy, I really do appreciate the administrator's position not to take restrictive on players for pretty much anything except for cheating.  Administrators have changed over the years, but that has remained a constant.  This is not a door I'd like to see opened.
Title: Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
Post by: Lambchops on March 19, 2018, 10:32:50 AM
WTF? You say you want people who repeatedly harass people punished ..... but not van because he does it all the time?

WHAT??

The guy is toxic and abusive, but he's YOUR friend so its ok? No it's not.

Lol that's the thing, if we were to enforce rules the way some players on this thread are advocating regular players like van would inevitably be banned.


I really don't want to see anyone banned, but openly stating: we will not ban anyone because there are regular players who are complete assholes is just an open invitation to everyone to just keep going.

I honestly would not reccommend war2.ru to anyone who knew my family simply because I am too embarassed to be associated with such a purile group. Even just the main channel is severely NSFW ... or even family and friends... and I quite often swear in normal conversation.

If it takes banning someone to make people stop and think it might be necessary.

Are you suggesting that van is some kind of genuine social retard who honestly CAN'T stop abusing people?... because I'm assuming he just does it because he likes doing it and he can. This is like saying we can't ban map hacks because regular players use them.... no, you just hit them with the naughty stick until they stop bloody hacking.

I'd like to stick up for van here and suggest that he ISN'T some kind of retarded moron, and that he could stop being an utter prick if he put his mind to it.

We don't need more rules, just admins willing to take the issue seriously.

Thoughts anyone? ... van?




Title: Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
Post by: Certified MENSA Genius Brain (smart) on March 19, 2018, 10:54:13 AM
the poll isn't great because people voting against the "harassment policy" could be against it because they want it to go further, OR because they think it goes too far.  so the written policy is probably even a better compromise position than it would seem.
Title: Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
Post by: easycompany on March 19, 2018, 12:34:21 PM
jehova witness + war2  maybe everything went south bitter is a emotion the worst..but somewhere on this round object people are getting killed it never has really ended..rejoice in the day the lord made but for alot is thier last they dont have tommorow and im buzzed gone to jam hell im quiting i got enuff speakers around this place
Title: Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
Post by: Cel on March 19, 2018, 03:07:02 PM
While I wouldn't really object to a kinder, more accepting atmosphere, I'm opposed to increased censorship measures to regulate asshole behavior as a practical matter for three primary reasons:
1. As already mentioned in this thread, I worry about the unintended consequences for otherwise mild players getting baited in to an argument.
2. The status quo has been established for so long--many current players being part of the community for a decade or longer, that I think change would be difficult for some.
3. While I get that slippery slope is a named argument fallacy, I really do appreciate the administrator's position not to take restrictive on players for pretty much anything except for cheating.  Administrators have changed over the years, but that has remained a constant.  This is not a door I'd like to see opened.

As I mentioned, even if you are pushed hard there is a difference between being salty or insulting and promoting racial hate, antisemitic talks, or homophobic violence...
I do not mind censorship for the three last ones honestly.

Also as I mentioned banning people wont solve anything by itself.
The goal here is to improve the atmosphere for new players not punish people I don't care what you have done in the past I just want us as a community to stop pushing new comers away plain and simple.

Now banning seemed like a easy solution but still the best solutions for me are:
- Chat profanity filters enabled by default that you can disable if you are ok with reading disgusting things. (I would definitely enable these when I stream)
- Mute players that do not behave for a duration, a muted player is squelched by default for everyone else players are free to unsquelch him if they want to but by default he speaks to himself. < Now that would be the best sentence because targeted toward what really was not ok.

None of these involve banning people as you might be able to tell.
Now if these cannot be adopted because too complicated we still can try to teach people not to cross lines using slowly increasing ban durations just saying that is still better than no actions at all.

Because yes some people's freedom of speech right now, directly impacts everyone else's fun by pushing people away and polluting our common space.
You want more freedom? Me too!
I am pretty sure new players would like to have the freedom to play the game without being directly attacked or exposed to disgusting and endless monologues.

About things always being that way have a look to the allegory of the cavern that is the only thing I see coming from that argument...
Now if there is a way to improve everyone's fun and freedom at a minimal cost for the most toxic of us by forcing them to behave a little that is definitely a door I'd like to see opened, it is ok to fear progress that should not stop us from seeking it :P
Title: Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
Post by: Lone on March 19, 2018, 05:25:45 PM
If you ban trash talking, Swift will stop winning games in chat lobby and get raped 24/7.
Title: Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
Post by: Certified MENSA Genius Brain (smart) on March 19, 2018, 05:58:45 PM
We're going to ban performance enhancing drugs (no more niacin)
Title: Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
Post by: Antti_Kiviniemi on March 20, 2018, 10:24:27 AM
talking, Swift will stop winning games in chat lobby and get raped 24/7.
Report

its simple. u can ban swift urself lol. never play swift if he trash talks you. say u refuse to play him for 1 week if he trash talks. if he trash talks within this 1 week period. u double the ban to 2 weeks - so 2 weeks added to the old 1 week. if he trash talks within this period, u double to 1 month. then u just add 1 month every time he trash talks.
Title: Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
Post by: tk[as] on March 20, 2018, 08:32:37 PM
How does swift get to trash talk you lone? You dominate him on fastest.
Title: Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
Post by: Swift on March 20, 2018, 10:57:58 PM
If you ban trash talking, Swift will stop winning games in chat lobby and get raped 24/7.

Lol. I’ll still beat ya!
Title: Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
Post by: woot. on March 22, 2018, 04:59:18 PM
Antti_Kiviniemi  ;D 
Title: Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
Post by: LiveFreeorDie on April 11, 2018, 10:25:30 PM
LeeRoyJenkins has continued to repeatedly spam me with unwanted private messages every time I log on.

I do not talk to this person, I do not game with this person, I do not engage him in any way, ever.

Yet he continues to ruin my gaming experience with endless spamming.

I will explain why /dnd and /ignore LeeRoyJenkins are not enough.

Using the /dnd feature works only until I reconnect, and it also deprives me of a component of the gaming experience that should be fully functioning, that is, I should be able to whisper and receive whispers from friends that I want to hear from, who are also blocked by /dnd.

Typing /ignore LeeRoyJenkins during a game when my screen is spammed up with his nonsense takes only seconds, yes, but seconds count and that little interruption to what is going on in the game can easily ruin the game, especially in situations like getting the first hit with peon, cancelling building, UC early game etc., where you can't afford to miss a second.

This is getting ridiculous. This guy is some kind of obsessive creep and my having to be subject to this kind of harassment every time I log on is retarded.

I haven't been taking SS's every day when he msges me, since there are already 500 SS's of him harassing various people.

I took one pic tonight, but there are many, many, many, especially during games I didn't take since there's no shortage of evidence that this guy is a problem.

I'll clarify that this isn't about *WHAT* the person is saying, nor am I suggesting that people should be babysat so no one is allowed to be "mean". This is about an ongoing, routine spamming up of the screen during games that ruins the games. The pictures tend to be of chat channel since that's when I'm not concentrating on something else, but it shows that the guy has a serious issue with repetitive unwanted one-way messaging. This is similar to the problem that was had before with the "XXXX has added you to friend list" spamming that was happening until it was removed because it was interfering with game play.

(https://i.imgur.com/5kStG30.jpg)
Title: Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
Post by: mousEtopher on April 11, 2018, 10:35:36 PM
i warned him again today but he seems pretty hostile & unreceptive to the suggestion that he stop doing what he's doing. i agree that you shouldn't have to deal with someone spamming you crap while you're trying to play for weeks on end. i can't really ban him indefinitely, but if he's going to insist on being a horse's ass then i can kick him off the server and give a 30min tempban to disrupt his playing like he's disrupting yours. 
Title: Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
Post by: easycompany on April 11, 2018, 10:45:49 PM
Martika - Toy Soldiers - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvdLovAaYzM#)
Title: Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
Post by: Lambchops on April 12, 2018, 10:10:21 AM
oh and another great byproduct of identifying and hooking the messaging procs for the hosting issue is that we would be able to fix the /squelch command at the same time, so it doesn't expire at the end of every game :)

It could even be done with a squelch.txt file in the wc2 folder with a permenant list of names, although I'm not sure if that would be the best thing for the community in the long run.... mind you then we could distribute CE with leeroy, van and a couple of others pre-written into the squelch.txt to avoid scaring of noobs ;)
Title: Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
Post by: Certified MENSA Genius Brain (smart) on April 12, 2018, 10:42:09 AM
ctrl-p if he msgs you in game
Title: Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment
Post by: Disgruntled on April 12, 2018, 01:26:30 PM
 Leroy should be banned for a good while every time he does this.  He's a toxic dick whos a long time repeat offender.
Squelch.txt is great idea