Warcraft II Forum

Warcraft II => Strategy & Replays => Topic started by: magetower on March 05, 2019, 01:39:01 PM

Title: beating bloodlust
Post by: magetower on March 05, 2019, 01:39:01 PM
I disagree that the two races are pretty equal and have their own strengths and weaknesses. Pretty much one word does humans in-bloodlust. Here's a few strategies I've heard to try to beat it, not sure any of them really work well.

1. Cast slow on them............Ok, now they only do 1.5 more damage instead of 3x the damage if fully upgraded, still in favor of orcs.

2, Cast Flame shield on a paladin/paladins attacking the BL'd Ogre Mages, or cast flame shield on the ogres when they sit outside before they attack and bloodlust each other. The first one, not sure, plus flameshield also damages YOUR units, you don't want several flameshielded paladins attacking the ogres, while also damaging each other. The second one, not sure.

3. Polymorph the Ogre Mages- Ok........gonna need lots of mages fully charged with mana, maybe too many for it to be feasible.

4. Blizzard the Ogre Mages- Sure, just gonna need them to stand still long enough for you to do it, if your paladins are fighting them you'll probably hit them as well.

5. Have the paladins backed up with archers to hit the Ogres from behind. Not sure about this, how does it work? Some people have told me they only produce archers for fighting against Dragons and Griffins, not sure how this would work.

6. Outnumber the Ogre Mages with more paladins. Basically build more barracks then your opponent has. Still, since the Ogre Mages do three times the damage of paladins, you're going to need 3 times the barracks!

7. Use Griffins to hit Ogre Mages- seems good in that the OM's can't attack the Griffins, just wonder if they could kill them fast enough

8. Use dwarf demolition teams to attack the Ogre-Mages, and by the way- do goblin sappers do more damage when they explode if they are bloodlusted?

What about combining some of these. Perhaps using strategies 1+2+4 might turn the tide in your favor, or maybe not.
Title: Re: beating bloodlust
Post by: Szwagier on March 05, 2019, 05:23:20 PM
xD

so funny slowing 9 OM
using archers vs lusted om

most of your idea will never work
Title: Re: beating bloodlust
Post by: magetower on March 05, 2019, 07:24:19 PM
Yes, that's why orcs are unbalanced
Title: Re: beating bloodlust
Post by: Lambchops on March 06, 2019, 08:56:34 AM
You should ATTACK with demo squads... not detonate - demos are op they will pwn the ogres  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: beating bloodlust
Post by: shesycompany on March 06, 2019, 08:18:28 PM
aslong as there isnt any delay...like 2 hits and dead..i usually make a knight lead and follow with the sap.

attack!! loooooooooooool
Title: Re: beating bloodlust
Post by: Tolean on March 07, 2019, 05:08:06 AM
My favorite strat in beating lust in late game is a heavy peon rush. Make at least 10 halls and pop hard, usually ogres feel guilty for killing so many civils, become traders and join me...
Title: Re: beating bloodlust
Post by: magetower on March 09, 2019, 03:40:28 PM
was hoping some series replies........you're not funny
Title: Re: beating bloodlust
Post by: Szwagier on March 09, 2019, 03:44:07 PM
this game, wont get ballanced anymore
Title: Re: beating bloodlust
Post by: Goodfaun on July 09, 2019, 04:05:43 AM
Well the main way to kill bloodlust orges is with bloodlust orges, but assuming you are talking about human vs orcs. Best options as humans is double cannon towers and a good wall in between.  Blizzard is best bet against an army standing still. So towers, walls, blizzards other wise i just suggest play it smart invis+blizz can take out any good gold line.
Title: Re: beating bloodlust
Post by: Cel on July 16, 2019, 10:40:45 AM
Well it is not that big of a deal.

Every strat an orc can do that does not involve lust can be used by humans as well stick to these strats and you wont miss lust, unless things don't go according to plan in which case you'd probably loose as an orc as well so chill :D.

Yes it is unbalanced but you really only have less options and less room for failure it is not like you can't play around it.

Game is almost perfectly balanced aside from a few spells and mechanics, if anything, it is a good way to take on a slightly weaker opponent and give yourself a very small handicap.

 :wc2:
Title: Re: beating bloodlust
Post by: shesycompany on July 16, 2019, 04:23:51 PM
if they are going lust, like walling off powering to castle..just go foots and saps
Title: Re: beating bloodlust
Post by: Warbux on July 17, 2019, 01:03:43 AM
I disagree that the two races are pretty equal and have their own strengths and weaknesses. Pretty much one word does humans in-bloodlust. Here's a few strategies I've heard to try to beat it, not sure any of them really work well.

1. Cast slow on them............Ok, now they only do 1.5 more damage instead of 3x the damage if fully upgraded, still in favor of orcs.

2, Cast Flame shield on a paladin/paladins attacking the BL'd Ogre Mages, or cast flame shield on the ogres when they sit outside before they attack and bloodlust each other. The first one, not sure, plus flameshield also damages YOUR units, you don't want several flameshielded paladins attacking the ogres, while also damaging each other. The second one, not sure.

3. Polymorph the Ogre Mages- Ok........gonna need lots of mages fully charged with mana, maybe too many for it to be feasible.

4. Blizzard the Ogre Mages- Sure, just gonna need them to stand still long enough for you to do it, if your paladins are fighting them you'll probably hit them as well.

5. Have the paladins backed up with archers to hit the Ogres from behind. Not sure about this, how does it work? Some people have told me they only produce archers for fighting against Dragons and Griffins, not sure how this would work.

6. Outnumber the Ogre Mages with more paladins. Basically build more barracks then your opponent has. Still, since the Ogre Mages do three times the damage of paladins, you're going to need 3 times the barracks!

7. Use Griffins to hit Ogre Mages- seems good in that the OM's can't attack the Griffins, just wonder if they could kill them fast enough

8. Use dwarf demolition teams to attack the Ogre-Mages, and by the way- do goblin sappers do more damage when they explode if they are bloodlusted?

What about combining some of these. Perhaps using strategies 1+2+4 might turn the tide in your favor, or maybe not.

ok i bet u if u play hu vs orc on normal speed ... it is either balanced or humans are stronger....
ofc hu dont stand a chance on fastest or EF becuz u cant micro the mages fast enough to fight wit knights an mages vs lust ogres
but if it were slower speeds not only would heal work properly but u could use things like slow or blizzard and effectivly take ogres out becuz u can micro manage ur units better

orcs are better on faster speeds cuz all u have to do is lust an send but humans take more micro to play

but no 1 will ever play normal speeds ive hosted tournies on Faster an it was pretty successful it was only noticably slower in the beginning making ur hall after that u almsot forget that its slower and hu has a better chance on there

this is why i wish we could bring back ladder or iron man becuz its played on faster speed not ef not fastest

im gonna try the flame shield on ogies when they group to lust tho that seems kidna cool id like to see how it works
Title: Re: beating bloodlust
Post by: shesycompany on July 17, 2019, 02:10:13 AM
try to get 2 of them off or maybe a triple knight spread as they attack will be burnt or maybe a quad flame on 4 knights should at least weaken them..

or maybe the knights will die in .5 secs but flame is pretty mean

ur hands are still pretty quick id try a line of knights 4 of them to be sacrificed and 4 flame shields as the orges come
Title: Re: beating bloodlust
Post by: Lambchops on July 17, 2019, 06:26:20 AM
@magetower IMO most, if not all, of the imbalance comes down to game speed.

"Normal" speed, which I presume was what the designers were basing the game around, is to us now all but unplayably slow. These days almost all games are played at "Extra Fast" (= slow) or "Fastest" (= fast) speeds, but at lower speeds the human counters to the brute-force of lust become realistically usable.

Take lust vs heal as an example:

The HUGE difference between these two is that lust can be cast first before engaging, then you can pretty much send the ogres into battle and forget about it (although microing always helps), however you can't cast heal on a healthy unit, so you must wait until after the battle has started then attempt to heal your units in-between them getting punched by ogres.

This is quite feasible at "Normal" speed, but all but impossible at EF speed, let alone F.

The same can be said of microing other human spell-based counters like slow or flame-shield.


Actually, feeding into the current game-mods discussion, IMO this would be about the only decent argument for any sort of automation that I can think of, as auto-healing would bring the balance back closer to what the designers intended when they were originally testing the game on slower speeds.... (N.B. I am not actually suggesting we should do this, just musing).

Title: Re: beating bloodlust
Post by: Warbux on August 06, 2019, 10:24:40 PM
@magetower IMO most, if not all, of the imbalance comes down to game speed.

"Normal" speed, which I presume was what the designers were basing the game around, is to us now all but unplayably slow. These days almost all games are played at "Extra Fast" (= slow) or "Fastest" (= fast) speeds, but at lower speeds the human counters to the brute-force of lust become realistically usable.

Take lust vs heal as an example:

The HUGE difference between these two is that lust can be cast first before engaging, then you can pretty much send the ogres into battle and forget about it (although microing always helps), however you can't cast heal on a healthy unit, so you must wait until after the battle has started then attempt to heal your units in-between them getting punched by ogres.

This is quite feasible at "Normal" speed, but all but impossible at EF speed, let alone F.

The same can be said of microing other human spell-based counters like slow or flame-shield.


Actually, feeding into the current game-mods discussion, IMO this would be about the only decent argument for any sort of automation that I can think of, as auto-healing would bring the balance back closer to what the designers intended when they were originally testing the game on slower speeds.... (N.B. I am not actually suggesting we should do this, just musing).




thankyou some 1 finally gets it
Title: Re: beating bloodlust
Post by: Warbux on August 06, 2019, 10:26:16 PM
@magetower IMO most, if not all, of the imbalance comes down to game speed.

"Normal" speed, which I presume was what the designers were basing the game around, is to us now all but unplayably slow. These days almost all games are played at "Extra Fast" (= slow) or "Fastest" (= fast) speeds, but at lower speeds the human counters to the brute-force of lust become realistically usable.

Take lust vs heal as an example:

The HUGE difference between these two is that lust can be cast first before engaging, then you can pretty much send the ogres into battle and forget about it (although microing always helps), however you can't cast heal on a healthy unit, so you must wait until after the battle has started then attempt to heal your units in-between them getting punched by ogres.

This is quite feasible at "Normal" speed, but all but impossible at EF speed, let alone F.

The same can be said of microing other human spell-based counters like slow or flame-shield.


Actually, feeding into the current game-mods discussion, IMO this would be about the only decent argument for any sort of automation that I can think of, as auto-healing would bring the balance back closer to what the designers intended when they were originally testing the game on slower speeds.... (N.B. I am not actually suggesting we should do this, just musing).




thankyou some 1 finally gets it

we have auto healing exe's we tried out for testing but .. i dont htink thats the answer
at most i think all we need to do is make slow cost less... so a mage can slow more ogies.. ya theyll still be 1.5x faster but its good enough imo
Title: Re: beating bloodlust
Post by: tk[as] on August 09, 2019, 08:48:07 PM
humans will never beat bloodlust.

why are we still talking about it
Title: Re: beating bloodlust
Post by: shesycompany on August 09, 2019, 11:38:00 PM
3 flames who can pull it off not mehh :salty:
Title: Re: beating bloodlust
Post by: Szwagier on August 10, 2019, 02:14:02 PM
@magetower IMO most, if not all, of the imbalance comes down to game speed.

"Normal" speed, which I presume was what the designers were basing the game around, is to us now all but unplayably slow. These days almost all games are played at "Extra Fast" (= slow) or "Fastest" (= fast) speeds, but at lower speeds the human counters to the brute-force of lust become realistically usable.

Take lust vs heal as an example:

The HUGE difference between these two is that lust can be cast first before engaging, then you can pretty much send the ogres into battle and forget about it (although microing always helps), however you can't cast heal on a healthy unit, so you must wait until after the battle has started then attempt to heal your units in-between them getting punched by ogres.

This is quite feasible at "Normal" speed, but all but impossible at EF speed, let alone F.

The same can be said of microing other human spell-based counters like slow or flame-shield.


Actually, feeding into the current game-mods discussion, IMO this would be about the only decent argument for any sort of automation that I can think of, as auto-healing would bring the balance back closer to what the designers intended when they were originally testing the game on slower speeds.... (N.B. I am not actually suggesting we should do this, just musing).




thankyou some 1 finally gets it

we have auto healing exe's we tried out for testing but .. i dont htink thats the answer
at most i think all we need to do is make slow cost less... so a mage can slow more ogies.. ya theyll still be 1.5x faster but its good enough imo


GL with clicking with slow while 9 ogres with bl when are moving
Title: Re: beating bloodlust
Post by: shesycompany on August 10, 2019, 02:30:14 PM
slow is pretty good..fixed mana at 50... 3 mages can get it off pretty good.. if u dont wanna dmg urself with blizzard

1.5 is no where near as dmg of 3
Title: Re: beating bloodlust
Post by: Szwagier on August 11, 2019, 09:14:24 AM
slow is pretty good..fixed mana at 50... 3 mages can get it off pretty good.. if u dont wanna dmg urself with blizzard

1.5 is no where near as dmg of 3
If you got 3 mages why dont you just blizzard them? You prefer waste all mana to slow them and lost still knights ??
Title: Re: beating bloodlust
Post by: shesycompany on August 11, 2019, 10:29:28 AM
well we are talking about non blizz/dnd ...  shure lets just mage bomb them.. lust solved  ;D
Title: Re: beating bloodlust
Post by: shesycompany on August 15, 2019, 05:24:37 PM
there is one strat ...canons and pelads with exo..i bet u could pull it off u8...im not there yet i got to play to evolve..no dk's and u still got a use of a mage is a hell of a power  advantage..

lets say they gonna make some dragons to take out the canons..np flame shielded knights will take them out..humasn still have a more powerful late game than no brainer lust'n go

would you quit war2 if you couldnt use orcs  :salty:

thats why woofy is secretly my hero.best human i ever seen
Title: Re: beating bloodlust
Post by: Warbux on August 17, 2019, 06:39:41 PM
1 thing i found useful is being quicker... humans can win if they strike fast an first.... usually they got there ogies choked infront of there base.. u bring a mage an blizzzard that choke... ogies dead wide oepn for knights to run on in.. it has worked for me a number of times giving me a win over orcs.. it jus doesnt work if the person is map hackin .. cuz ofc hell see the mage coming an send a "scout" out to kill it even if u got knights ouit protecting it hell manage to get it
Title: Re: beating bloodlust
Post by: shesycompany on August 18, 2019, 12:52:18 PM
yeah thats kinda what im finding..i use the sappers and whatever low level foots alot