Warcraft II Forum

Warcraft II => Server.War2.ru => Topic started by: Qanon on June 21, 2019, 12:00:29 AM

Title: FINALLYY EVERY 1 NEEDS THIS
Post by: Qanon on June 21, 2019, 12:00:29 AM
FINALLYYY THANKS TO LAMBCHOP ..

u can now see the map inside the lobby room waiting for game

also if u press f2 itll toggle allied color so all ur allies an enemies are red/blue on mini map

3rd ... it has a timer on the mini map so u know how long game has gone on

4th .. u can see how much wood each of ur peons have by clicking on it.. hihglight the peon an u will see a green bar below that indicates how fulll it is on carrying wood

this is the link .. once again thankkkk youuuuuuu lambchopp!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ill post screen shots to

=http://forum.war2.ru/index.php/topic,2703.msg78016.html#msg78016]http://=http://forum.war2.ru/index.php/topic,2703.msg78016.html#msg78016]=http://forum.war2.ru/index.php/topic,2703.msg78016.html#msg78016 (http://forum.war2.ru/index.php/topic,2703.msg78016.html#msg78016)
Title: Re: FINALLYY EVERY 1 NEEDS THIS
Post by: Qanon on June 21, 2019, 12:01:04 AM
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/471809618595545088/591475613483925504/unknown.png)
Title: Re: FINALLYY EVERY 1 NEEDS THIS
Post by: Lambchops on June 21, 2019, 07:51:09 AM
thankkkk youuuuuuu lambchopp!!!

YW mate. Thanks for testing and for putting the word out on discord.

Not much point in advertizing it here though. Apart from ec, the last 5 and a half people still using this forum either couldn't be bothered installing it, couldn't be bothered letting me know that they did or decided on some reason to turn their noses up at it or just flat out complain. Their loss.

The lobby map plugin is a great idea (I think it was your idea IIRC). I really think it has improved my game by letting me study the map and think of strats before each game, even with maps I already know pretty well it really helps lock it all in.

Enjoy. I hope it enriches your wc2 games.

Title: Re: FINALLYY EVERY 1 NEEDS THIS
Post by: shesycompany on June 21, 2019, 12:58:41 PM
ya blizz should of hired lamb in their '2d' department..zelya,fios i can pretty much make a team for them.
Title: Re: FINALLYY EVERY 1 NEEDS THIS
Post by: Qanon on June 22, 2019, 06:26:43 PM
lamb i been enjoying the fuckkk out of this shit... and the fact that u made it a plug in system people can juss addd plug ins as they go god thats genius man its like revolutionary lol this alon made me wan play more .. now i can host my maps an spread the word hey u wana know what ur playing download lambs new plug in system an u can see the maps in the lobby jus like wc3 does it ... an i know theres much more good things to come out of this.. thanks again lamb i been using it for 3 days so far everything has been great! ...

ps lmk if u got any plug ins to test out id be happy to
Title: Re: FINALLYY EVERY 1 NEEDS THIS
Post by: Qanon on June 22, 2019, 11:53:27 PM
@Lambchops  can u add a apm plug in? a request from sum people they dont wnaa change cuz of it
Title: Re: FINALLYY EVERY 1 NEEDS THIS
Post by: Lambchops on June 23, 2019, 06:08:02 AM
i been using it for 3 days so far everything has been great! ...

ps lmk if u got any plug ins to test out id be happy to


Awesome  :) Thanks for your help and support.


@Lambchops  can u add a apm plug in? a request from sum people they dont wnaa change cuz of it


AFAIK the plugin framework is totally compatible with War2Observe (http://ftp://ftp.war2.ru/war2/utils/War2Observe.exe) (which has the APM counter). IIRC iL's ploader automatically loads observe at startup (I think?).

Anyway you can still use the ploader or run observe seperately. Or have people been having issues? First I've heard of it. I suppose I could build an APM counter but I try not to re-invent the wheel if I don't have to... life's too short.

Title: Re: FINALLYY EVERY 1 NEEDS THIS
Post by: Qanon on June 23, 2019, 11:08:49 AM
@Ring62  it was a question asked... so its answerd then u can still see apm ring
Title: Re: FINALLYY EVERY 1 NEEDS THIS
Post by: Lambchops on June 24, 2019, 08:17:25 AM
@Ring62  it was a question asked... so its answerd then u can still see apm ring

I don't usually use observe. I did a quick test and it seemed to be working ok, but please let me know if there are any compatability issues for you and I will look into it further :)
Title: Re: FINALLYY EVERY 1 NEEDS THIS
Post by: tk[as] on June 25, 2019, 04:47:50 PM
i like all of the ideas except able to see how close to getting wood a peon is. kinda hackish imo.
Title: Re: FINALLYY EVERY 1 NEEDS THIS
Post by: Lambchops on June 29, 2019, 05:55:06 AM
i like all of the ideas except able to see how close to getting wood a peon is. kinda hackish imo.

Yeah I'm yet to hear any reasoned argument against it, apart from "it's not in the original interface".

I can see no reason why you wouldn't/shouldn't know that one peon has chopped more than another. IMO It is a missing feature in the original interface. Why shouldn't we improve the game instead of just saying "it's old so it will die out"?

But glad to hear you like the rest of the mods :) You can of course opt not to use the chop bars mod if you want.

Title: Re: FINALLYY EVERY 1 NEEDS THIS
Post by: tk[as] on June 29, 2019, 10:39:29 AM
it's a big deal at higher levels.. especially on classic maps. resource management is definitely one of the top 3 skills that make top players top players. they're constantly pulling peons from gold to wood, back from wood to gold.. typically they have to create temporary memory banks in their head and monitor all peons "ok i just saw these 2 peons start chopping recently.. they're early in their chop phase.. i'll pull them from wood to gold since i need gold right now"  .. that's a real thing. thats what good players do. they don't just pull peons off wood. they pull the ones they believe to be the newest to chopping wood, and let the ones further in the chopping cycle alone.

imagine if they didnt have to monitor that (which takes time) and were 100% right all of the time about which peons are best to pull from wood to gold... compared to someone who was using educated guesses. especially in close games.

it's a hack for sure
Title: Re: FINALLYY EVERY 1 NEEDS THIS
Post by: Winchester on June 29, 2019, 01:01:35 PM
While the rest of the features are nice, tk is right about the chopping feature. a chop feature which tells you how many chops are left gives you a direct advantage against those who don't use it and can win you a game as a result to perfect management compared to their lack of perfect management.  Resource management is a huge deal in not just warcraft 2, but all RTS. For warcraft 2 in particular, chopping wood requires more skill then chopping wood in other RTS like warcraft 3, and age of empires/mythology as you can simply return your lumber to your town center even if you just chopped the tree once.

RTS games are a battle of seconds, and this feature in particular will help give you those extra seconds of an advantage against an evenly matched player not using it to get your upgrades first and win more frequently.

Title: Re: FINALLYY EVERY 1 NEEDS THIS
Post by: Tolean on June 30, 2019, 01:16:24 AM
Totally agree
Title: Re: FINALLYY EVERY 1 NEEDS THIS
Post by: Lambchops on June 30, 2019, 08:10:17 AM
Sure. I know it is useful .... so use it.

I'm still not hearing an argument as to why it shouldn't be part of the interface. Should we never improve the game?

Actually having had it for a while now, TBH I don't actually use it a lot. Occasionally I will notice 2 peons chopping the one tree so I will move the one that has chopped less, but stopping and making that decision takes a second or two, depending on what else is happening that may not be a good use of time simply for a 50% chance that you will get 100 wood maybe a couple of seconds earlier.

And I've actually noticed that in that situation most often the 2 peons are very close to the same number of chops, so it doesn't make any real difference which one you move, and you would be better off just grabbing one at random.

There is no argument that it technically allows more information so there is a small advantage (real or imagined), but what is the argument that it should not be part of the interface?

Not "because I don't have it" if you can't be bothered installing it that's on you, not a valid reason why the game should never be improved.

Title: Re: FINALLYY EVERY 1 NEEDS THIS
Post by: iL on June 30, 2019, 09:22:34 AM
Quote
There is no argument that it technically allows more information so there is a small advantage (real or imagined), but what is the argument that it should not be part of the interface?
I'd say "because some players already have skill to control their peons and they spent much time to reach that skill".
These players have advantage now, they deserved it, but they loose it after your software coming out.

At the same time as i state before, i think our future is newcomers, so they will find it useful.
And the game needs evolving, so your utility is a good act for newcomers i think. So i plan to add your utils to new combat 4.5
Title: Re: FINALLYY EVERY 1 NEEDS THIS
Post by: mousEtopher on June 30, 2019, 11:33:45 PM
great work!! the plugin system looks awesome & the map plugin is amazing!! <3<3<3 i too oppose the chop plugin however for exactly the reasons tk said.

I'm still not hearing an argument as to why it shouldn't be part of the interface. Should we never improve the game?
conversely, what's the argument that it should? the only reason i'm hearing is because you personally think it's an improvement to have to spend less attention monitoring choppers. that doesn't sound like an open & shut "improvement" so much as one person's personal preference for what essentially amounts to a crutch. like tk & others i hold the opposite position. just because a new feature can be added to the game doesn't automatically qualify it as an "improvement", just as a "change", especially if it's created & thrown out into the general population on one individual's whim rather than any kind of authoritative consensus that the feature is both valuable & needed.

this has of course always been a grey area for modding, like maphack for pballers or double click for customs players. those things also change the game to let some people play it the way they want to (and also do it by requiring less effort/skill on the part of the player). so that's a subjective improvement in their eyes, but it doesn't make either change an overarching improvement on the flow/balance/unique character of the game when taken as a whole. in general i think it's very much the opposite -- these things tend to have a marked dumbing down effect on how the game is played. i don't see why it should be taken as a given that the approach to designing an RTS game should necessarily mirror the approach modern civilization takes to making every aspect of life as easy & cushy & low-effort as possible. otoh we do have black to pink as an accepted feature, so it's not unprecedented either.

what's ultimately important to consider with any such new additions are 1) that they have popular support and 2) that they be standardized so everyone gets the same playing experience. i personally don't like this feature and find it annoying that someone can just throw it out there and now I suddenly have to wonder in every match if i'm playing against people who get a special advantage (which is exactly the same situation as maphack or the starting position hack), or that people should have to accept a fundamental change to the game they know & love based on nothing more substantial than "someone had coding knowledge and thought it'd be neat", or that this is anything other than a completely sloppy way to roll out new features into a game whose outcomes depend entirely on having a consistent ruleset. (that last being a greater problem with war2 modding as a whole, in general it's great that anyone takes the time to make new stuff at all & i don't intend to diminish that fact.) but to say "if you're too lazy to install gameplay-changing mods yourself then you deserve to get fucked over" just doesn't wash imo -- someone who creates & publishes a maphack could say the same thing, "oh, you should just download it yourself and then everything will be equal again, the game is changing, it's not my fault you can't keep up." (even if it did, at the very least you'd still have a responsibility to make all players aware of the change so they have the opportunity to get up to speed, and in that case posting about it on page 11 of an obscure thread on a forum used by 5 1/2 members of the community doesn't remotely qualify as due diligence. :P) anyone who really cares about "improving" the game must necessarily care about maintaining a consistent playing experience for everyone since after all this is a competitive multiplayer game. if it's not standardized, then none of the outcomes mean anything.
Title: Re: FINALLYY EVERY 1 NEEDS THIS
Post by: Lambchops on July 01, 2019, 08:17:37 AM
Quote
There is no argument that it technically allows more information so there is a small advantage (real or imagined), but what is the argument that it should not be part of the interface?

I'd say "because some players already have skill to control their peons and they spent much time to reach that skill".
These players have advantage now, they deserved it, but they loose it after your software coming out.


Ok. I see your point.

Maybe I'm wrong but I'm not aware of any players who can keep track of exactly which peons started chopping first. It seems literally impossible without watching your choppers all game, which would leave you virtually unable to do anything else.

Is there anybody capable of doing this? Please speak up.


At the same time as i state before, i think our future is newcomers, so they will find it useful.
And the game needs evolving, so your utility is a good act for newcomers i think. So i plan to add your utils to new combat 4.5


Cool. You are most welcome to use it.  :thumbsup:

great work!! the plugin system looks awesome & the map plugin is amazing!! <3<3<3 i too oppose the chop plugin however for exactly the reasons tk said.


Mousey :) Welcome back I've missed you.

conversely, what's the argument that it should? the only reason i'm hearing is because you personally think it's an improvement to have to spend less attention monitoring choppers. that doesn't sound like an open & shut "improvement" so much as one person's personal preference for what essentially amounts to a crutch.


Respectfully, I really don't think it is a crutch at all - it is providing new information that could not be obtained be any means short of exclusively watching peons chop, which IMO is in any normal gameplay impractical to the point of impossibility.

The only way anyone could be paying that much attention to microing choppers would be if they were recording a macro at a slower speed. Anyone who has been paying attention to the game will know that this type of thing has been done since before this server started. I believe it was the death of many custion maps that required fast building and attacking like BGH, archers etc. I am happy to take the advantage away from cheats and give it to real players.

Other than that, I do not believe that ANYONE can keep track of all their choppers and build / scout / attack / defend / expand etc. beyond the first few peons at the start of the game, and at that point the chop bar is irrelevant anyway.

I honestly think it is information that should be available to the player (even wargus has this), and it just adds a bit more fun/interest. Any theoretical advantage is very slight, and it is available to everyone.

.... posting about it on page 11 of an obscure thread on a forum used by 5 1/2 members of the community doesn't remotely qualify as due diligence.



Well I did try. No it wasn't on page 11 of an obscure thread. I made THIS (http://forum.war2.ru/index.php/topic,4910.msg78161.html#msg78161) thread, and invited public comments before I even put the time into making it, let alone releasing it.

Yes I was a bit underwhelmed by the response.




There was a bit on the lobby map, then I posted this:

Next plugin will add hp/mp bars under units on screen for better microing. Also chopping bars for peons so you can see which ones have chopped more.


got no response, so I did a test then posted this

  Well here's a proof of concept for the life bars thing. Still a lot of kinks to iron out, but it should work ok I think:

([url]http://forum.war2.ru/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4910.0;attach=3010[/url])


So how should this be handled? I'm thinking magic / chopping display should only be for your own units, but life should be visible for any unit in visual range... or should this be handled some other way?

Thoughts?


  -- edit --

and how about training complete % bars for rax etc? gold left in mines? upgrade progress for smith/mill/foundary/altar etc?



There's a fine line between improving the game and changing it, which is why I want people's opinions on these things.


There were comments from easycompany, iL, zelya and Szwagier. Nobody else seemed to be interested. I'm guessing tk was too busy ranting about how he should be admin and criticizing people while not reading more than the first 6 words of anything.

People raised concerns about health bars, especially with regards to unselected units. To be honest I was really surprised by the general air of negativity. I expected displaying life bars for enemy units to be contentious, but I really didn't think anyone would mind seeing their own information.

But, as people had issues, I did not release a plugin that displayed health bars at all, and when I released the chop bars plugin 10 days later I made sure they were restricted only to the player's own peons and only while they were selected.

Still people complain.

I really thought I was doing the right thing to try to breathe some new interest back into the game. In the end server admins can declare whatever they want to be a "hack" and ban it. People can demand SS. The plugin framwork is designed to make it ver easy for individual mods to be added or removed. Do as you will.


But let's pop the lid off this steaming pile with some officially submitted tourney warvid featuring custom displays of opponent's forces and resources, on-screen health bars and training completion. This is apparantly OK as long as nobody talks about it, but try to openly improve the game for everyone and suddenly I'm overreaching.

(http://forum.war2.ru/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4963.0;attach=3052)

All 4 players in that game are very high profile "pros". I would personally be quite surprised if they were not all running that same software. The local player was clearly using a gaming mouse with automatic clicking.

No I am not interested in naming either my source, the player who recorded it or the other players in the game so we can got through some facade of a witch-hunt, I'm sure we/they all know who they are. I just enjoy the game and I'd rather do something positive.


maintaining a consistent playing experience for everyone since after all this is a competitive multiplayer game. if it's not standardized, then none of the outcomes mean anything.



AGREE.

So let's cut the crap. Is the problem that I'm talking about mods openly? or that I'm making them available to non "pros" ... or am I seriously supposed to believe you have all been playing this game and running the server and the tourneys for all these years without ever knowing about any of this stuff? .... Please. Prosplain me that.


Now let's all have a nice discussion about the unfair advantage chop bars are providing.

Anyone want to buy a vowel? How bout an "O"?

Love you guys :)

 :critter:

Please read and consider all of this post before replying. Please also consider simply replying "Cool mod Lamb, thanks"
Title: Re: FINALLYY EVERY 1 NEEDS THIS
Post by: iL on July 01, 2019, 10:57:03 AM


But let's pop the lid off this steaming pile with some officially submitted tourney warvid featuring custom displays of opponent's forces and resources, on-screen health bars and training completion.
This is apparantly OK as long as nobody talks about it, but try to openly improve the game for everyone and suddenly I'm overreaching.

([url]http://forum.war2.ru/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4963.0;attach=3052[/url])

All 4 players in that game are very high profile "pros". I would personally be quite surprised if they were not all running that same software. The local player was clearly using a gaming mouse with automatic clicking.

No I am not interested in naming either my source, the player who recorded it or the other players in the game so we can got through some facade of a witch-hunt, I'm sure we/they all know who they are. I just enjoy the game and I'd rather do something positive.

as i understand that is a warvideo replay with stats enabled.
Warvideo will not show that until the game is finished.
I don't mean there's no such type of hack somewhere, but at least i don't know about that type of hack.
Title: Re: FINALLYY EVERY 1 NEEDS THIS
Post by: Lambchops on July 01, 2019, 12:47:06 PM
as i understand that is a warvideo replay with stats enabled.
Warvideo will not show that until the game is finished.
I don't mean there's no such type of hack somewhere, but at least i don't know about that type of hack.

Very glad to hear it. Glitching observer on gives most of the same information, and I'm quite sure pleanty of people do that. Observer is a very flawed hack that is available in the server downloads section.... and somehow a chop bar is some crazy advantage?

  -- edit --

and where do you get that version of warvid?
Title: Re: FINALLYY EVERY 1 NEEDS THIS
Post by: CLAVV on July 01, 2019, 12:51:36 PM
The only way anyone could be paying that much attention to microing choppers would be if they were recording a macro at a slower speed. Anyone who has been paying attention to the game will know that this type of thing has been done since before this server started. I believe it was the death of many custion maps that required fast building and attacking like BGH, archers etc.
I BELIEVE THIS FALSE

I (USED TO) CRUSH ALL CHOP AND BGH AND ARCHER AND MAD AND KOTR PLAYERS AND I LEGIT, THEREFORE HAX0RS HAVE LITTEL SUCCESS

WAIT U TALKIN ABOUT ME? LOL
Title: Re: FINALLYY EVERY 1 NEEDS THIS
Post by: Lambchops on July 01, 2019, 01:09:36 PM
The only way anyone could be paying that much attention to microing choppers would be if they were recording a macro at a slower speed. Anyone who has been paying attention to the game will know that this type of thing has been done since before this server started. I believe it was the death of many custion maps that required fast building and attacking like BGH, archers etc.
I BELIEVE THIS FALSE

I (USED TO) CRUSH ALL CHOP AND BGH AND ARCHER AND MAD AND KOTR PLAYERS AND I LEGIT, THEREFORE HAX0RS HAVE LITTEL SUCCESS

WAIT U TALKIN ABOUT ME? LOL

Hahaha. Nice.
 
Pro tip:
Always disrupt your "pro" opponent's base as early as possible, it upsets their build macro. The longer you leave it the greater their advantage.

 .... but just make sure they don't know how much wood a peon has chopped or you will be owned.
Title: Re: FINALLYY EVERY 1 NEEDS THIS
Post by: CLAVV on July 01, 2019, 01:24:41 PM
The only way anyone could be paying that much attention to microing choppers would be if they were recording a macro at a slower speed. Anyone who has been paying attention to the game will know that this type of thing has been done since before this server started. I believe it was the death of many custion maps that required fast building and attacking like BGH, archers etc.
I BELIEVE THIS FALSE

I (USED TO) CRUSH ALL CHOP AND BGH AND ARCHER AND MAD AND KOTR PLAYERS AND I LEGIT, THEREFORE HAX0RS HAVE LITTEL SUCCESS

WAIT U TALKIN ABOUT ME? LOL

Hahaha. Nice.
 
Pro tip:
Always disrupt your "pro" opponent's base as early as possible, it upsets their build macro. The longer you leave it the greater their advantage.

 .... but just make sure they don't know how much wood a peon has chopped or you will be owned.


THE ONLY CUSTOM PLAYER REALLY "CAUGHT" MACRO HAXING WAS TYRYTY IN THE FAMOUS TRIAL OF TYRYTY THREAD. IT WAS LONG ASS TIME AGO. THER WAS MAYBE ONE LESSER KNOW HAXER THAT ONLY PLAYED BGH N/A, BUT HE NEVER PLAYED MUCH AND I KANT EVEN REMEMBER HIS NICKNAME
(NOT TAKING DOUBLECLICK MACRO HAX0R INTO ACCOUNT, I BELIEVE THAT MACROHAX ISNT EVEN FROWN UPON ANYMORE)

...OR IS IT? AM UNAWARE OF WAR2 ZEITGEIST


(https://i.imgur.com/yuvpy2t.jpg)
Title: Re: FINALLYY EVERY 1 NEEDS THIS
Post by: Qanon on July 02, 2019, 03:02:00 PM
ok so adding health bars to units or peons of YOUR own units is a hack? HOW IF EVERY 1 HAS IT if its in a update that every 1 is to download when they open the game how is it unfair? every 1 has it its not unfair .. and i think the real problem is the amount of people who can get on the server with out the new version of wc2 simply becuz there hacks wont work on it .. so they stick to the old ver .. we need to make the new update mandatory so every 1 is using the same client with the chopper or no chopper update doesnt matter no advantage cuz all will have it
Title: Re: FINALLYY EVERY 1 NEEDS THIS
Post by: Szwagier on July 02, 2019, 03:48:16 PM
this game is the easiest startegy that i played online and you want make it more easy?

wtf?
Title: Re: FINALLYY EVERY 1 NEEDS THIS
Post by: Warbux on July 02, 2019, 03:57:07 PM
actually its not the easiest becuz it doesnt have all the shortcuts that the new rts games has .. its by far more primitive so more difficult for people who havent played it befor then any other rts
Title: Re: FINALLYY EVERY 1 NEEDS THIS
Post by: Szwagier on July 03, 2019, 01:02:32 AM
You are talking about Control, let me guess,  you want pick all rax with one click

Did you play sc:bw online?


And you belive thats some how where born  +2000 will play this old game?
Title: Re: FINALLYY EVERY 1 NEEDS THIS
Post by: Lambchops on July 03, 2019, 05:09:56 AM
And you belive thats some how where born  +2000 will play this old game?

Ragner and hurt both born 2000+

Why not? It's an awesome game. Maybe we won't get a million young players, but we can get some.

I hear young people still play chess too - the graphics on that is pretty old ;)

Title: Re: FINALLYY EVERY 1 NEEDS THIS
Post by: Cel on July 05, 2019, 12:32:13 PM
I love these additions to the game they look legit and they are a great step forward to upgrade the game! :thumbsup:

About the fact that it is a real help to have them tools on, it would be awesome if we could have a quick way to tell when people are or not running the mods from the game with a command or/and from the status page for example.
Since these additions may really help the game-play substantially it would be nice to be able to see when players use them for tourneys and ladder.
That way people can still play "old school" if they really want and wont feel cheated on since they can see/tell before hand if they want to.

For example some tourney could make them tools mandatory or ask players not to use these tools works both ways overall I see only positive can come out of this if it is done right.

What do you think guys would that be doable?
@iL
@Lambchops

I think making the mod visible to all in game and on status may fix any problem people have with it in it's current form, and maybe later form if more features are added to it later on :-)

And again great job Lambchops you are doing amazing things!
Title: Re: FINALLYY EVERY 1 NEEDS THIS
Post by: baRa on July 05, 2019, 12:54:00 PM
I think the chop bars are almost completely useless. Health bars however would be more useful. It will help newbs with controlling there units better and as they improve, there will be better players thus resulting in better games.
Title: Re: FINALLYY EVERY 1 NEEDS THIS
Post by: Cel on July 05, 2019, 01:17:21 PM
Chop bars are pretty neat I think they benefit pros most since it allows for better optimisation of the wood flow when moving peons around, it is an info that was not available before if you were not constantly watching your wood line when peons get back to chop, there is no way to tell which peon is almost done chopping and which just started especially during late game.

Also if you notice someone is chopping in your base you can tell if the chop is almost done or if you still have the time to make an at or move a cat in position with absolute certainty (unless it does not show for other players/enemies).

life bars are also a great addition pros will mostly already be used to select during micro but that will clearly allow them not to.

Overall I think there is nothing wrong about making the game more modern and nicer/easier with these simple changes I think people wont be complaining if they can tell quickly in game or in lobby if players are using the mod or not :P


The only thing that may trigger some hate is if it is shady. But if it is clearly visible then they can choose wether they want it or not being used in their games/'tourneys

I suggest a command like
/mods *playername*
that would display all the mods being used that that player that are "official" like:
*playername* uses: observe, lifebars, teamcolors, chop bars, whatever mod name
Title: Re: FINALLYY EVERY 1 NEEDS THIS
Post by: Warbux on July 05, 2019, 03:35:16 PM
Chop bars are pretty neat I think they benefit pros most since it allows for better optimisation of the wood flow when moving peons around, it is an info that was not available before if you were not constantly watching your wood line when peons get back to chop, there is no way to tell which peon is almost done chopping and which just started especially during late game.

Also if you notice someone is chopping in your base you can tell if the chop is almost done or if you still have the time to make an at or move a cat in position with absolute certainty (unless it does not show for other players/enemies).

life bars are also a great addition pros will mostly already be used to select during micro but that will clearly allow them not to.

Overall I think there is nothing wrong about making the game more modern and nicer/easier with these simple changes I think people wont be complaining if they can tell quickly in game or in lobby if players are using the mod or not :P


The only thing that may trigger some hate is if it is shady. But if it is clearly visible then they can choose wether they want it or not being used in their games/'tourneys

I suggest a command like
/mods *playername*
that would display all the mods being used that that player that are "official" like:
*playername* uses: observe, lifebars, teamcolors, chop bars, whatever mod name


i think the chop only works on ur peons not the enemies
Title: Re: FINALLYY EVERY 1 NEEDS THIS
Post by: iL on July 05, 2019, 07:55:41 PM
Quote
Since these additions may really help the game-play substantially it would be nice to be able to see when players use them for tourneys and ladder.
There's no way to see when players use that, as nothing being sent to network here.
The only way is to use something like antihack here...
Title: Re: FINALLYY EVERY 1 NEEDS THIS
Post by: Warbux on July 05, 2019, 08:58:32 PM
Quote
Since these additions may really help the game-play substantially it would be nice to be able to see when players use them for tourneys and ladder.
There's no way to see when players use that, as nothing being sent to network here.
The only way is to use something like antihack here...

or if its added to the update fair game for every 1 .. i think people are a bit confused of what it actually is when they see it theyll realize its nothing that serious an its only for YOUR personal peons that u highlight at the time .. not your enemies not your allies only yours.. an whats great about lambs new system  .. it can be updated an added on to in the DLL folder.. maybe we can add updates threw the patch loader that will update every one at once when something new comes out for it
Title: Re: FINALLYY EVERY 1 NEEDS THIS
Post by: Lambchops on July 06, 2019, 08:12:05 AM
Quote
Since these additions may really help the game-play substantially it would be nice to be able to see when players use them for tourneys and ladder.
There's no way to see when players use that, as nothing being sent to network here.
The only way is to use something like antihack here...

Yeah, as I understand it the server only gets the client game (wc2, sc, diablo etc), and a version number. There isn't really a facility for it to receive any extra info.

Perhaps we could force a chat message at game start, like have each client auto send "Plugins: T C A L" or something so everyone can see it. Don't really know how to do that yet, although I suspect it wouldn't be too hard to track down. However that would be an update to the framework itself as against just adding a plugin so that is just an idea for a later date.

At the moment there is only the chop bars that people seem worried about. If you try it out you will find that although it is interesting and occasionally mildly useful, it really doesn't give anyone a huge advantage. I would be very surprised if it actually altered the outcome of even one game a year. The main thing I notice is peons seem to chop faster lol. When you don't know how long they have to go they always seem to take forever....

i think the chop only works on ur peons not the enemies

Yes. Only your own, and only when they are selected.

Actually I think it would be cool to be able to see enemies also... like when they are chopping into your base, I think this stuff just adds interest and fun to the game, but don't worry I have no intention of doing that unless a clear majority of players wants it (which seems unlikely).

     --------------------

The next plugin I am thinking about doing is a game/chat log.
Should also be able to incorporate a squelch list at the same time.

Just something that logs the time, date, map and players etc. when you start a game then logs the in-game chat in a text file. Not for any real reason except it would be amusing. Imagine if we had chat logs from all the epic games over the years .... so much gold wasted.

Does anybody have any problems with that? Copyright? Invasion of privacy? Religious concerns? General grumpiness? Having a bad day issues? Just don't like Lamb doing stuff? ;) Speak up!


Also at a later date I would also like to add life/magic bars for selected units. Just the info that is already supplied on the panel on the left, except as an on-screen display.... please start bitching about that now, then we can have another bitch session when I get around to thinking about starting work on it..... by that time hopefully people will have become more comfortable with the whole plugin thing and think of it as a positive as against something to be feared.


I love these additions to the game they look legit and they are a great step forward to upgrade the game! :thumbsup:

Thanks mate. That's nice to hear. :) I just wish I had more time to spend working on it. At the moment I'm really only putting in a few hours a week (if that).
Title: Re: FINALLYY EVERY 1 NEEDS THIS
Post by: Lambchops on July 06, 2019, 08:21:57 AM
this game is the easiest startegy that i played online and you want make it more easy?

wtf?

Personally I think giving the player more information makes the game richer, not easier.
Title: Re: FINALLYY EVERY 1 NEEDS THIS
Post by: Cel on July 06, 2019, 09:57:44 AM
ALthough I like the idea of having a bunch of mods improving the gameplay available to everyone like that.
I do also believe it would not be advisable to enforce it on everyone.
We should let players choose for themselves.
We have to respect other players even if you think this is minor or it makes things better some people will want to keep it the old way.
I also think the mods will make the game richer and better.

To make everyone happy we really have to find a way for players to know at anytime what modes players are running.
Title: Re: FINALLYY EVERY 1 NEEDS THIS
Post by: baRa on July 06, 2019, 11:35:33 AM
Other games like sc2 dont ask you if you want an update (which usually ends up screwing over 1 race or 2) with every new patch. You must have it, and thats that. I think same should be applied here.
Title: Re: FINALLYY EVERY 1 NEEDS THIS
Post by: Cel on July 06, 2019, 12:43:18 PM
other games loose players everytime they do something like that we cant really afford it.
Other games like starcraft 2 are entirely based on a different kind of playerbase you can't just ignore nostalgia is the main factor for war2 we all know that.

We do not have to force players to adopt our updates...
If they are really good players will end up all updating anyways, but in the mean time if you let people choose and make it fair and visible you wont alienate anyone, that is just more respectful...

You and me may think the updates are a straight good thing it is still very bold and not ok to impose our point of view on others or make it shady.

Cheating is not cheating if you agree at the beginning on the advantage it gives you with the other players it is cheating because you do it in their back... That is what makes it a cheat.
Allow players to see who is using what and to choose wether to use it or not and no one will have no issues about it everyone will be happy.

^
That is the only thing we need to find a way to do if we want players to be ok with our nice upgrades that awesome lambchop spent so much time and effort to do and that I would love players to slowly adopt  too btw :-)

Just needs to be done in a way that everyone's perspective/opinion/point of view is respected and accounted for :P
Title: Re: FINALLYY EVERY 1 NEEDS THIS
Post by: baRa on July 06, 2019, 01:18:52 PM
As with anything though, there will never be 100% agreement on any issue or question. Majority has to rule in favor and that is good with me weather i agree or not.

I love this game as is and im sure every everyone else does too, however we cant try to continue to grow the game without making subtle changes and updates/upgrades every now and then. Otherwise the same 60~ players will just continue to play that have been playing for 15-20 years.

You are right about nostalgia, but like i mentioned. You might get an old player back to check it out who hasnt played in 15 years but he wont be around long. This game doesnt generally appeal to new generation gamers because its so old, graphics outdated etc. But if we continue to make upgrades it might/might not be appealing because it is always evolving. I may be in the minority in this, but thats my opinion.
Title: Re: FINALLYY EVERY 1 NEEDS THIS
Post by: iL on July 06, 2019, 06:00:32 PM
The next plugin I am thinking about doing is a game/chat log.
You mean ingame chat when people press enter, write something and press enter again?
I think that idea would be great!
No any reasons against that: anyway you can see everything appears on your screen, so why not to save it to file? You could always do that manually by rewriting from the screen. Just a technical improvement. I think would be great!

Also ngk~laalaa planned to add that feature into his war2insight, but haven't been implemented yet.
I think would be a good feature.

I would also like to add life/magic bars for selected units. Just the info that is already supplied on the panel on the left, except as an on-screen display.... please start bitching about that now, then we can have another bitch session when I get around to thinking about starting work on it..... by that time hopefully people will have become more comfortable with the whole plugin thing and think of it as a positive as against something to be feared.
I know several russians who would protest that as something that should change the gameplay.
At the same time i'd accept that improvements. The game is old and it requires some fresh elements i think. And i think that is more important than some kind of old and well-known gameplay.
Title: Re: FINALLYY EVERY 1 NEEDS THIS
Post by: Cel on July 07, 2019, 01:37:50 AM
Cheating is not cheating if you agree at the beginning on the advantage it gives you with the other players it is cheating because you do it in their back... That is what makes it a cheat.
Allow players to see who is using what and to choose wether to use it or not and no one will have no issues about it everyone will be happy.

To me it does not really matter if it "changes" the gameplay... I don't think anyone would care if it is not done in a shady way.

These plugins are cheats only if they are not detectable easily by other players when they are used, in game and/or on the status page.

As long as it is not done behind people's back and people can still choose not to use the said plugin or not, I see no reason why people would be mad about it...

Thus my recommendation for any mod that touches gameplay:

Make it easy to see when players use the mod and give them the choice to use it or not and everyone will welcome it with open arms there is nothing to loose there everyone wins no one has a reason to be mad.

The way I see it there is only so many ways to go about it:
- If you enforce it on everyone from the get go there will be people mad about it.
- If you don't enforce it but people cannot tell easily if players are using it there will be people mad about it.
- if you don't release it well me and many others will be sad about it because we miss a great opportunity to make the game better.

^
Only scenario where I don't see people having a reason to be mad/sad about it is if it is not enforced on players and they can easily see if and when people are using it...

If every single player ends up using the mod from there we can ship it with the game and make it a default thing since at that time we would be able to tell no one has any problem with that. :P
Title: Re: FINALLYY EVERY 1 NEEDS THIS
Post by: Lambchops on July 08, 2019, 07:15:54 AM
... stuff ...

Thanks very much for your interest/input/feedback people :)

So I'll assume that nobody has an issue with a game/chat log for now.

We can revisit life bars etc. and have a healthy debate on them (and other issues) at a later stage if I ever get serious about producing them.

Title: Re: FINALLYY EVERY 1 NEEDS THIS
Post by: Szwagier on July 08, 2019, 02:58:40 PM
this game is the easiest startegy that i played online and you want make it more easy?

wtf?

Personally I think giving the player more information makes the game richer, not easier.

richer? cause you need click on enemy unit to check HP?
for example there are TWO lvl 5 grunts in your base and you got 10 peons mining in gold mine, one grunt got 10 hp, second grunt got 60hp, if you dont check hp for check his hp and u start focus random you got 50% to loss all peons, but if you attack grunt with hp, few peons can survive

Now player will see it
With that you will change game play to ignore more rush, just more focus to lust than now
Title: Re: FINALLYY EVERY 1 NEEDS THIS
Post by: Cel on July 11, 2019, 02:07:10 PM
Make it an option people can get just like war2observe is.

I really recommend we implement a command for players to be able to tell what known mods people are running with the game. something like the anti-hack but for mods that we know.
@iL would that be doable?
like a "/mods" command that can be followed with a player name and that would list all mods used by a player.

That way it is transparent and I am sure there will be absolutely no problems no matter how different the mods change the game.

Because it is like playing a custom game kind of, sure it is different from the main game but who cares if it is an option that players can choose/control no one is forced to play free castle all day but some players enjoy it we do not have to choose for everyone.

Think about it as if it was a custom map, forcing every player to adopt it as the one and only map would be a terribly bad idea, allowing it to exist along side what we already have however is a 100% win win and it makes the game rich.

So yeah I would say lambchop is right to say it makes the game richer to have these mods but it makes it richer especially because they are optional and controllable the question is what can we do about it :P
Title: Re: FINALLYY EVERY 1 NEEDS THIS
Post by: baRa on July 11, 2019, 03:09:39 PM
Make it an option people can get just like war2observe is.

I really recommend we implement a command for players to be able to tell what known mods people are running with the game. something like the anti-hack but for mods that we know.
@iL would that be doable?
like a "/mods" command that can be followed with a player name and that would list all mods used by a player.

That way it is transparent and I am sure there will be absolutely no problems no matter how different the mods change the game.

Because it is like playing a custom game kind of, sure it is different from the main game but who cares if it is an option that players can choose/control no one is forced to play free castle all day but some players enjoy it we do not have to choose for everyone.

Think about it as if it was a custom map, forcing every player to adopt it as the one and only map would be a terribly bad idea, allowing it to exist along side what we already have however is a 100% win win and it makes the game rich.

So yeah I would say lambchop is right to say it makes the game richer to have these mods but it makes it richer especially because they are optional and controllable the question is what can we do about it :P


Except its not just like choosing to play a certain map or not. Its gameplay, everyone in the game should have the same gameplay mods/updates/upgrades.
Title: Re: FINALLYY EVERY 1 NEEDS THIS
Post by: Cel on July 12, 2019, 04:15:29 AM
Well that is what modding is all about you change the gameplay and make it available as a mod  :thumbsup:

Many games nowadays are getting a lot of mods and they are not forced on people usually what happens is you activate mods or not depending on the lobby you join. If you do not have the mods used by the host usually the game will make you download them.

We can't really have that in war2 unfortunately but we can still make them visible at least and people can always go install/launch the mod then come back.

In modern games you may find mods for about everything improving the ui adding new gameplay elements or changing the graphic aspect of the game.

You do not have to look too far though starcraft supports modding now too :P
Title: Re: FINALLYY EVERY 1 NEEDS THIS
Post by: CLAVV on July 12, 2019, 06:37:25 AM

We can't really have that in war2 unfortunately but we can still make them visible at least

NOP. BARA 100% RIGHT
Title: Re: FINALLYY EVERY 1 NEEDS THIS
Post by: Lambchops on July 12, 2019, 09:19:06 AM
this game is the easiest startegy that i played online and you want make it more easy?

wtf?

Personally I think giving the player more information makes the game richer, not easier.

richer? cause you need click on enemy unit to check HP?
for example there are TWO lvl 5 grunts in your base and you got 10 peons mining in gold mine, one grunt got 10 hp, second grunt got 60hp, if you dont check hp for check his hp and u start focus random you got 50% to loss all peons, but if you attack grunt with hp, few peons can survive

Now player will see it
With that you will change game play to ignore more rush, just more focus to lust than now

More information = chopping progress. This is new previously unavailable information. It allows the player another source of input to base decisions on. IMO this makes the game richer.

Allowing visible health bars for enemy units (which you seem to be describing) is a different thing.

I don't think that will happen in the short term anyway because people have issues with it so I will not impliment it.

But I don't think it would have the effect you are describing, because it would also make it easier to break a grunt pinch blocking your base. So this would give the advantage more to rushers/noobs.

... but as you say once they break in you have a better chance of microing peons to kill the grunts.

So there are advantages to both players. In the end there is more readily available information so the advantage goes to the player making the best decisions with that information.... isn't that the point?

Anyway this is a moot point because there no health bar plugin (yet).

Make it an option people can get just like war2observe is.

I really recommend we implement a command for players to be able to tell what known mods people are running with the game. something like the anti-hack but for mods that we know.
@iL would that be doable?
like a "/mods" command that can be followed with a player name and that would list all mods used by a player.

That way it is transparent and I am sure there will be absolutely no problems no matter how different the mods change the game.

I made a suggestion about this last time you raised it but perhaps I didnt explain it very well.

The easiest way to have "transparancy" would be to force the game to send a chat message at the start of each game, that all the players can see, just like any normal in-game chat message.

So the game starts then like 3 seconds in it says. "PLUGINS - MAP CHP CPU ALC" or something like that.

So we start a game and my client automatically says, "Lambchops: PLUGINS - MAP CHP CPU ALC". Everyone can see it and it's recorded on warvid or SS.

... now I don't know how to do that off the top of my head, but it seems like something that would be achievable and would address your concerns. I will try to include something like that in a later update.

A server command like "/mods" would be nice but that is technically much more complicated to achieve. The server doesn't know what mods a client has, so we would have to make another server type program to collect the information, have the clients contact it and declare their mods, add in a "/mods" command to the pvpgn server and then have the pvpgn server request the information about a specific client and relay it back in a message. This is a LOT of components and a lot of work. Its much more realistic to just have everyone automatically announce their mods at the start of a game.

Another possible way would be to allow you to whisper a player and request their plugins... like:

/m lambchops !pluglist

and the my client would respond with <from lambchops: PLUGINS - MAP CHP CPU ALC> or whatever.

kinda cute, but a lot more work than just getting it to announce them at the start of the game.... in the end it would be nice to have some time left over to actually make some plugins ;)


Because it is like playing a custom game kind of, sure it is different from the main game but who cares if it is an option that players can choose/control no one is forced to play free castle all day but some players enjoy it we do not have to choose for everyone.

Sheesh it just a chop meter... but ok I take your point in principle.

Well that is what modding is all about you change the gameplay and make it available as a mod  :thumbsup:

Many games nowadays are getting a lot of mods and they are not forced on people usually what happens is you activate mods or not depending on the lobby you join. If you do not have the mods used by the host usually the game will make you download them.

We can't really have that in war2 unfortunately but we can still make them visible at least and people can always go install/launch the mod then come back.


Well actually we can  :)

Because of the way pud files are structured, it is quite possible to imbed extra information in them ..... i.e. mod information.

Then provided all players run a livemod plugin, we can have mods that are specific to an individual map. When the game starts, the livemod plugin detects the mod section, and applies the mods on the spot for that game, then when the game ends, it reverses the process.

This way we can have VERY custom maps, like giving knights lust or whatever, but the mods are only active for that map.

This is why I want to get people using the plugin framework... the possibilities are limitless, but it needs to be a stable standardized platform that many (hopefully all) people are using.

It's really not about trying to upset the apple cart by giving someone some perceived tiny advantage somewhere - it's about getting a system in place by where we can exploit all the ideas and research that many people have had and done over the years.

In the end there will always be good old fashioned gow ef games, nobody is trying to change that, but there can also be so much more.


Title: Re: FINALLYY EVERY 1 NEEDS THIS
Post by: Harrywangs on July 12, 2019, 11:48:33 AM
I'm on the anti mod side in terms of changing game play.

Chop- You're taking away a feature of the game because it is too difficult for some people? There are so many instances, in GOW, where the chop is very important for yourself and the enemy. Why are we trying to make the game "easier" for people? If it was as easy as tic tac toe, nobody would play it. It's difficult, enjoyable, and makes people strive to be better and to pay attention to the small details that become important which make the great players the great players they are. This isn't a, well, most people aren't good at it, so let's make it easier, type situation. This is why millennials have such a lazy ass reputation.

Hey, guys, while we are at it, it is very difficult to make peons early game consistently while microing and gaying, can we please make a mod for auto peons? I would also like auto peon management, the correct peons on wood and gold at all times please. Wouldn't mind auto attack after X grunts at a rax. I mean, we already have the double click hack we somehow allow (still baffled), why not made a mod so I can lust all 9 in one second? Also, a dk radar so I know when a dk is approaching my base so I can pull peons. Auto pull too, why not. That would be much easier. Oh, that would just destroy the game.

Health Bars- Same thing, u8 already spoke pretty well to it with his example. It's a microing skill to be able to know who has what HP. Again, these are the small details that make the better players the better players. Something that you learn as you go and eventually take advantage of because you are good, and have got to a level where you can do these things that give you an advantage. Everyone can do it, but it's a matter of getting to that level.

Honesty, I'm completely taken back by this. I do appreciate people trying to do good for the game and improve things. I just think we might be getting to a point where its like, what can do we do now!?!!?! And we just do something to do something as opposed to really thinking about it. It is not that I am not grateful for all that many people have contributed but I do have a strong opinion on this and similar other situations. Things like this and the double click hack, lessen my motivation for playing this game.

Let's also think, what new person, who isn't big into computers, wants to constantly download mods and patches and this and that for different aspects of the game. 1 DL is all it should be, period. If I got a new game and had to do all of this, I'd be out before it launched.

Also, just curious, how many top of players, or even players that would be considered good, at GOW, support this? I've seen 0 so far. I wonder if there is a reason for that.... This is Warcraft, not Nerf people, sack up.

Title: Re: FINALLYY EVERY 1 NEEDS THIS
Post by: CLAVV on July 12, 2019, 01:00:28 PM
Quote
With that you will change game play to ignore more rush, just more focus to lust than now
ANYWAY TO ANSWER THAT - PERSONALLY I WUD FIND IT AWSUM IF W2 EXPERIENCED SOME METAGAME SHIFTS. KEEPS THE GAME INTERESTING. ITS BEEN STAGNANT AS FUK THOSE LAST 7 YRS.

HAVING SUM MODDED GOW WITH BALANCE CHANGES SOUNDZ GREAT. GOTTA TALK TO U LAMB SOMETIME BOUT WHAT CAN BE DONE.I HAV A NEAT IDEA

Quote
we already have the double click hack we somehow allow (still baffled)
UNLESS SOME NERD CREATES VERY SPECIFIC ACTION TRACKER TO PROVE THE DOPPELCLICK, WE CANT ENFORCE BANZ ON IT. SO I USE IT. WUD HAV NO PROBLEM DITCHING IT THO, IT REALLY LOOKS HACKISH AS FUK CUZ I AM ULTRA EFFICIENT AT LUSTING NOW

Title: Re: FINALLYY EVERY 1 NEEDS THIS
Post by: Lambchops on July 14, 2019, 10:55:37 AM
I'm on the anti mod side in terms of changing game play.

Chop- You're taking away a feature of the game because it is too difficult for some people?

No. Adding a missing feature.

..most people aren't good at it, so let's make it easier, type situation. This is why millennials have such a lazy ass reputation.

Providing more information means there's another thing to consider, I don't think that makes anything easier, just allows you to make better decisions.

Hey, guys, while we are at it, (blah blah blah - rather silly rant). Oh, that would just destroy the game.

Sounds like you just answered your own question.


This is why millennials have such a lazy ass reputation.

Well I don't know about you, but I turn 49 next month.


Health Bars- Same thing...

There are already health bars for all selected units, your own or other players. Personally I think it would be a vast improvement to have them under the unit like any normal game does, and it would definitely make the game more accessable to new users, who I care about much more than crusty old nay-sayers.

Anyway, at this stage that doesn't exist yet. If you actually want to have any input apart from "don't do anything at all" perhaps you could be more specific about exactly what you are against. Having the info on the game screen instead of the panel on the left? or was there some other thing you were thinking about?

I do appreciate people trying to do good for the game and improve things. ....It is not that I am not grateful for all that many people have contributed.,...

Yeah. I can feel the love.  :-\

I just think we might be getting to a point where its like, what can do we do now!?!!?!

Damn right. So what can you do apart from play the same old stuff, in the same old way, with the same old people and scare away any new players?

And we just do something to do something as opposed to really thinking about it.

Yeah. No thought at all was put into anything, ever.

HERE'S A QUESTION: HAVE YOU TRIED IT?

Or are you just writing a huge rant against it without even trying it?
That might be the first step in putting some thought into a response yeah?

Things like this and the double click hack, lessen my motivation for playing this game.

Automatic gaming mouses are a sad fact of reality. I don't use them at all. Have never even owned one in my life. They give a real mechanical advantage to gameplay, that is totally different to providing information to allow people to make intelligent iniformed decisions.

I remember aftermarket SEGA game controllers that automatically hit the start/pause button very fast on and off to make games work in slow-motion, and that was in the 80's ffs. If you're still crying about that sort of thing you seriously need to build a bridge.

Let's also think, what new person, who isn't big into computers, wants to constantly download mods and patches and this and that for different aspects of the game. 1 DL is all it should be, period. If I got a new game and had to do all of this, I'd be out before it launched.

Do all of what exactly?

Oh sorry. Are the people maintaining you free server and producing your free game not working fast enough for you in their spare time after they get home from work?

Development doesn't happen instantly, but yes we are working to make that simpler.


Also, just curious, how many top of players, or even players that would be considered good, at GOW, support this? I've seen 0 so far. I wonder if there is a reason for that....

Oooo the "top" players....  Wait just let me sit back and be impressed for a minute...... Wow.

Really mate. The "top" players can still sit around playing each other on gow ef and banning newbs on the original version as much as they like. It's ok, none of this needs to interrupt the eternal circle-jerk, if that's what you're into.


This is Warcraft, not Nerf people, sack up.

You're bleeding all over your keyboard crying about a line showing chopping progress, then you say "sack up"..... Seriously, get a grip. If that breaks your game then you're not "good" at all. 

Title: Re: FINALLYY EVERY 1 NEEDS THIS
Post by: Lambchops on July 14, 2019, 11:36:50 AM
iL pointed out to me that the chop bars plugin didn't work in single player mode.

This version has a kludgey fix added to it so it works. Seems ok but please test and LMK if there are any problems.

Also I have made a simple launcher program for the framework for people who had issues using a modded exe file.
This loads the game then applies the mods in memory.

Unfortunately to take advantage of iL's ploader features (AH, warlat etc.) you will have to use this launcher to start the game then ALT-TAB out and run the ploader (I think this will work).

Anyway I have sent the source code to iL so he can include it in the next release. This is just for testing/interest.


Actually here it is, if anyone's interested (or paranoid):

Code: [Select]
// Warcraft II Plugin Framework loader
// Lambchops 7/2019

#include <windows.h>

CHAR szExepath[] = "Warcraft II BNE.exe";

#define num_patches 5

BYTE patch01[] = { 0x00 };
BYTE patch02[] = { 0xE8, 0x4F, 0xBD, 0x04, 0x00 };
BYTE patch03[] = { 0xC3 };
BYTE patch04[] = { 0x55,0xBF,0xB8,0x85,0x4D,0x00,0x8B,0x3F,0xFF,0xD7, \
                   0x90,0x90,0x90,0x90,0x90,0x90,0x90,0x90,0x90,0x90, \
                   0x90,0x90,0x90,0x90,0x90  };
                 
BYTE patch05[] = { 0x60,0xA1,0xB0,0x85,0x4D,0x00,0x85,0xC0,0x75,0x70, \
                   0xE8,0x03,0x00,0x00,0x00,0x4C,0x43,0x00,0xFF,0x15, \
                   0x78,0x01,0x49,0x00,0xA3,0xB0,0x85,0x4D,0x00,0xE8, \
                   0x04,0x00,0x00,0x00,0x68,0x70,0x30,0x00,0x50,0xFF, \
                   0x15,0x74,0x01,0x49,0x00,0x85,0xC0,0x74,0x49,0xA3, \
                   0xB4,0x85,0x4D,0x00,0xE8,0x04,0x00,0x00,0x00,0x68, \
                   0x70,0x31,0x00,0xB8,0xB0,0x85,0x4D,0x00,0xFF,0x30, \
                   0xFF,0x15,0x74,0x01,0x49,0x00,0x85,0xC0,0x74,0x2A, \
                   0xA3,0xB8,0x85,0x4D,0x00,0xE8,0x04,0x00,0x00,0x00, \
                   0x68,0x70,0x32,0x00,0xB8,0xB0,0x85,0x4D,0x00,0xFF, \
                   0x30,0xFF,0x15,0x74,0x01,0x49,0x00,0x85,0xC0,0x74, \
                   0x0B,0xA3,0xBC,0x85,0x4D,0x00,0xFF,0x15,0xB4,0x85, \
                   0x4D,0x00,0x61,0xA1,0x0C,0xDB,0x4B,0x00,0xC3  } ;


int    addrlist[] = { 0x428E17, 0x43FE00, 0x48BB50, 0x477723, 0x48BB54 };
LPVOID bufflist[] = { &patch01[0], &patch02[0], &patch03[0], &patch04[0], &patch05[0]};
int    sizelist[] = { 1, 5, 1, 25, 129 };


int WINAPI WinMain ( HINSTANCE hThisInstance,HINSTANCE hPrevInstance,LPSTR lpszArgument,int nnn ){

    STARTUPINFO si;
    PROCESS_INFORMATION pi;
    DWORD nb,op;

    ZeroMemory( &si, sizeof(si) );
    si.cb = sizeof(si);
    ZeroMemory( &pi, sizeof(pi) );


    // Load Warcraft II
    BOOL cp = CreateProcess( NULL, &szExepath[0], NULL, NULL, FALSE, CREATE_SUSPENDED, NULL, NULL, &si, &pi );

    // Write the patches
    for(int i=0;i<num_patches;i++){
        VirtualProtectEx(   pi.hProcess, (LPVOID)addrlist[i], sizelist[i], 4, &op );
        WriteProcessMemory( pi.hProcess, (LPVOID)addrlist[i], bufflist[i], sizelist[i], &nb);
        VirtualProtectEx(   pi.hProcess, (LPVOID)addrlist[i], sizelist[i], op, &nb );
    };
   
    // start the process
    ResumeThread(pi.hThread);

    // Wait until wc2 exits.
    WaitForSingleObject( pi.hProcess, INFINITE );

    // Close handles.
    CloseHandle( pi.hProcess );
    CloseHandle( pi.hThread );
   
}

So if you want to test the plugins, just copy the stuff in the zip into you WC2 folder then run Launcher.exe
The zip has the updated chop bars plugin and the in-channel CPU saver plugin.

The in-game CPU saver plugin is in the "disabled" folder. I think it's ok but needs further testing to be 100% sure it doesnt't cause lag, you can try that if you want.

There's also a copy of just the updated chop_bars plugin for existing usere who just want to update that.


     --- edit ---

further fix to single player mode chop bars ( hopefully done now :) )

Title: Re: FINALLYY EVERY 1 NEEDS THIS
Post by: Winchester on July 14, 2019, 02:11:21 PM
Now let's all have a nice discussion about the unfair advantage chop bars are providing.

Please read and consider all of this post before replying. Please also consider simply replying "Cool mod Lamb, thanks"

You're the one whos really butthurt people disliked 1 of your features while liking the rest. They can't all be home runs mate. some are bound to have a mixed reaction.

That said, we don't expect someone whos played the game for 20 years and still dies to people who use Flame Shield only as their means of damage to understand why a chop mod may not be the most popular idea to some.

You're bleeding all over your keyboard crying

You're a middle aged man editing peoples posts to literal "blah blah blah" nonsense because they don't like one of your features on a mod. You're basically acting like the 5 year old who says I know you are but what am I, maybe you should get the grip here. Maybe making mods isn't for you if you literally can't take any form of criticism on an idea that you worked on after you yourself wanted some discussion on it.  There's tons of kids who make some bad elder scrolls mods and post it on nexusmods  that handle the bad criticism on their mod better then you receiving mostly positive feedback for a mod with 1-2 issues. Yes elder scrolls are single player games, and people don't need to download the mods to be competitive as there is no multiplayer, yet they will still receive tons of bad reviews on grounds like "it dumbs the game down too much."

You made some decent mods and a questionable one, quit being a baby over the questionable one.
Title: Re: FINALLYY EVERY 1 NEEDS THIS
Post by: Harrywangs on July 14, 2019, 04:03:40 PM
I'm on the anti mod side in terms of changing game play.]

Chop- You're taking away a feature of the game because it is too difficult for some people?

No. Adding a missing feature.

I should be more clear. I meant in terms of changing game play. I only have issues with the 2 subjects that were bolded. The chop and health bars.


"adding a missing feature" is a subjective input that you are speaking to as if it were objective. I'm sure Blizzard would disagree. Just because you feel it is right, doesn't mean it is.

..most people aren't good at it, so let's make it easier, type situation. This is why millennials have such a lazy ass reputation.

"Providing more information means there's another thing to consider, I don't think that makes anything easier, just allows you to make better decisions."

Again, give me auto peons, auto lust, etc etc etc. You are not saying anything to defend the fact that you are automating a feature that requires skill in the first place. Making things easier doesn't necessarily make it more fun, especially at a competitive level.

Hey, guys, while we are at it, (blah blah blah - rather silly rant). Oh, that would just destroy the game.

"Sounds like you just answered your own question."

Right and I just related those things to what we are doing to the game. Where is the disconnect at? You didn't respond to anything.


This is why millennials have such a lazy ass reputation.

"Well I don't know about you, but I turn 49 next month."

You win that one. :)


Health Bars- Same thing...

"There are already health bars for all selected units, your own or other players. Personally I think it would be a vast improvement to have them under the unit like any normal game does, and it would definitely make the game more accessable to new users, who I care about much more than crusty old nay-sayers.

Anyway, at this stage that doesn't exist yet. If you actually want to have any input apart from "don't do anything at all" perhaps you could be more specific about exactly what you are against. Having the info on the game screen instead of the panel on the left? or was there some other thing you were thinking about?"

Okay, and there are ways to make peons already, so why not automate it? Pointing out the game has a feature already that has to be manually done is not a valid argument here against anything I've said. Again, it is a skill set you are taking away by automating.

I do appreciate people trying to do good for the game and improve things. ....It is not that I am not grateful for all that many people have contributed.,...

"Yeah. I can feel the love.  :-\"

My apologies, I know I was being overly sarcastic to prove my point but again, I am just so baffled by us changing the actual game itself. I honestly do appreciate it and do appreciate the things you (and others) have done for this game.

I just think we might be getting to a point where its like, what can do we do now!?!!?!

"Damn right. So what can you do apart from play the same old stuff, in the same old way, with the same old people and scare away any new players?"

I don't program at all and cannot do anything technical to help out. What I do is, be very active consistently for years. I don't ban noobs (unless they are unwilling to listen and even if i do i explain why) and offer new people information on hosting/host for them or offer them to play a 1v1 game. I also give crap to anyone who does ban noobs and let them know that this further kills the game. That is my contribution.

And we just do something to do something as opposed to really thinking about it.

"Yeah. No thought at all was put into anything, ever.

HERE'S A QUESTION: HAVE YOU TRIED IT?

Or are you just writing a huge rant against it without even trying it?
That might be the first step in putting some thought into a response yeah?"

Kind of an odd question. Don't knock it till you try it right? I haven't done Heroin, maybe I should....right? Yet, you agree that things like auto lusting ogres would ruin the game, but, have YOU TRIED THAT?!?!? lol.....Hmm... I did indeed tried it in War3TFT as that was a feature that was optional to add. Yes, it changed the game and micro.

Things like this and the double click hack, lessen my motivation for playing this game.

"Automatic gaming mouses are a sad fact of reality. I don't use them at all. Have never even owned one in my life. They give a real mechanical advantage to game play, that is totally different to providing information to allow people to make intelligent iniformed decisions.

I remember aftermarket SEGA game controllers that automatically hit the start/pause button very fast on and off to make games work in slow-motion, and that was in the 80's ffs. If you're still crying about that sort of thing you seriously need to build a bridge."

I may indeed need to be coached on this one. So, what you're saying is that the mouse itself allows it to happen with it's own hardware and cannot be stopped pretty much? Aka, nothing that can be done about it? If so, I give you this one then.

Let's also think, what new person, who isn't big into computers, wants to constantly download mods and patches and this and that for different aspects of the game. 1 DL is all it should be, period. If I got a new game and had to do all of this, I'd be out before it launched.

"Do all of what exactly?

Oh sorry. Are the people maintaining you free server and producing your free game not working fast enough for you in their spare time after they get home from work?

Development doesn't happen instantly, but yes we are working to make that simpler."

I apologize if that makes me sound ungrateful and, as I will reiterate, I do very much appreciate all the work everyone does on the technical side of things. It was just input as to barriers of getting new people into the game. Take the personal emotion out of your answer and I ask, do you agree with me though? Sorry if my initial comment was insensitive to everyone's hard work.


Also, just curious, how many top of players, or even players that would be considered good, at GOW, support this? I've seen 0 so far. I wonder if there is a reason for that....

"Oooo the "top" players....  Wait just let me sit back and be impressed for a minute...... Wow.

Really mate. The "top" players can still sit around playing each other on gow ef and banning newbs on the original version as much as they like. It's ok, none of this needs to interrupt the eternal circle-jerk, if that's what you're into."

Your responses should be logical vs emotional as this is more of a business type scenario. Are many of them assholes, sure, they even know it. But they know the game better than me or you do from a game play standpoint and their experience and skills are a value to the game. Nobody wants to watch a noob game but everyone from new-great want to watch a real good game.

I guess you would have to think of it like this though. Do you want to continuously play a game that is ruined by lessor skilled players where you are constantly doubled or tripled with nobody giving any assistance? It gets old pretty quickly. (partly why ppl smurf) I do think everything should have some sort of give and take (donate a few games to playing with everyone) but at the same time, with people's limited time and game play, they want to play good games that are fun. Not hold a newcomer's hand and diminish their own fun. Some people are here to play and have fun ONLY, not to forward the community and they are okay with the day it comes to an end. That is something that needs to be accepted too. It's just a game to some people.


This is Warcraft, not Nerf people, sack up.

"You're bleeding all over your keyboard crying about a line showing chopping progress, then you say "sack up"..... Seriously, get a grip. If that breaks your game then you're not "good" at all.  "

I'm simply trying to maintain the integrity of the game with my opinion. When you say "a line showing up chopping progress" and diminish it, it really does demonstrate to me that you do not actually understand/underestimate the impact it will have.


Title: Re: FINALLYY EVERY 1 NEEDS THIS
Post by: Lambchops on July 14, 2019, 08:50:37 PM
iL pointed out to me that the chop bars plugin didn't work in single player mode.

This version has a kludgey fix added to it so it works. Seems ok but please test and LMK if there are any problems.

Apparantly there is still an issue with SP mode. Will fix it tonight when I get home from work.

Title: Re: FINALLYY EVERY 1 NEEDS THIS
Post by: shesycompany on July 14, 2019, 10:47:22 PM
wonders how much of the engine in war2bnet is sc1  ???  i need them 255x255 maps ;p
Title: Re: FINALLYY EVERY 1 NEEDS THIS
Post by: Warbux on July 15, 2019, 01:32:30 AM
wonders how much of the engine in war2bnet is sc1  ???  i need them 255x255 maps ;p
yessssssssssssssssssss easyyy stay on itttt im witchu lolol
Title: Re: FINALLYY EVERY 1 NEEDS THIS
Post by: Lambchops on July 15, 2019, 11:12:57 AM

I'm on the anti mod side in terms of changing game play.]

Chop- You're taking away a feature of the game because it is too difficult for some people?

No. Adding a missing feature.

I should be more clear. I meant in terms of changing game play. I only have issues with the 2 subjects that were bolded. The chop and health bars.

Ok. Thank you for your more thoughtful reply this time, I will try to address it as as best I can.

There is only one. There is no health bars plugin, only the chop bars. I actually altered the prototype health bars source code and changed it into the chop bars plugin, so I don't even have that. I could of course re-create it or something similar, but so far it no longer exists. You can of course always feel free to pause and ask me for a SS any time if it makes you feel better, I won't be offended.

"adding a missing feature" is a subjective input that you are speaking to as if it were objective. I'm sure Blizzard would disagree. Just because you feel it is right, doesn't mean it is.

..most people aren't good at it, so let's make it easier, type situation. This is why millennials have such a lazy ass reputation.

"Providing more information means there's another thing to consider, I don't think that makes anything easier, just allows you to make better decisions."

Again, give me auto peons, auto lust, etc etc etc. You are not saying anything to defend the fact that you are automating a feature that requires skill in the first place. Making things easier doesn't necessarily make it more fun, especially at a competitive level.

Yes, I believe "adding a mising feature" is very accurate, regardless of whether or not people agree that the feature is valid or should have been added, I think that this is an objective and literal description. This is also not very relevant, so let's move on.

I don't know why you keep harping on about automating peon training and lust. Apart from sharing the very broad umbrella definition of "they are game mods" these things have absolutely nothing to do with chop bars.

Providing information about your own units so that the player can make decisions on what actions to take is VERY different from hacks that automate things and actually perform actions for the player without their input.

In fact as far as mods go, these things are pretty much diametrically opposed. Please find a better example.


Hey, guys, while we are at it, (blah blah blah - rather silly rant). Oh, that would just destroy the game.

"Sounds like you just answered your own question."

Right and I just related those things to what we are doing to the game. Where is the disconnect at? You didn't respond to anything.

You listed what were IMHO rather silly examples of things that would definitely have a detrimental effect on the game, and asked why they shouldn't also be done, then said "Oh, that would just destroy the game."

So you have answered the question with the very obvious answer. I'm having trouble believing that I really need to explain that response.

I do understand that you are invoking hyperbole in order to try and make a point, but unless your point is that NO mods should ever be made at all, then it seems to be a logical fallacy - i.e. listing other mods that would be detrimental to the game is not an argument that the mod in question is also detrimental.



This is why millennials have such a lazy ass reputation.

"Well I don't know about you, but I turn 49 next month."

You win that one. :)

Funny that doesn't feel like a win lol


Health Bars- Same thing...

"There are already health bars for all selected units, your own or other players. Personally I think it would be a vast improvement to have them under the unit like any normal game does, and it would definitely make the game more accessable to new users, who I care about much more than crusty old nay-sayers.

Anyway, at this stage that doesn't exist yet. If you actually want to have any input apart from "don't do anything at all" perhaps you could be more specific about exactly what you are against. Having the info on the game screen instead of the panel on the left? or was there some other thing you were thinking about?"

Okay, and there are ways to make peons already, so why not automate it? Pointing out the game has a feature already that has to be manually done is not a valid argument here against anything I've said. Again, it is a skill set you are taking away by automating.

Providing information about your own units is NOT automation.

I asked you to be more specific and you start talking about unit producton.

There is no realistic way to get chopping progress information and actually play the game as well. Not even if you are the most super autistic-genius "rain man" freak of nature that ever lived. Nobody can keep track of all their choppers and still attack/defend/build/train/upgrade/micro at the same time. Suggesting that this is a skill that anybody on earth has ever posessed is just silly.

Are you really suggesting that you or anyone else can do this? I hope not or I will just have to laugh and give up.

Not even if you close your eyes, hold your breath and wish REALLY hard, I'm sorry but chopping progress bars are not automation.

If you wish to argue that the game designers deliberately decided to withhold this information from players, and that knowing it is detrimental to the game, then I disagree but will honestly and openly consider your argument, and if you make it well enough I may even end up agreeing with you (although I doubt it), however attempting to describe it as automation is simply a fallacy.

I do appreciate people trying to do good for the game and improve things. ....It is not that I am not grateful for all that many people have contributed.,...

"Yeah. I can feel the love.  :-\"

My apologies, I know I was being overly sarcastic to prove my point but again, I am just so baffled by us changing the actual game itself. I honestly do appreciate it and do appreciate the things you (and others) have done for this game.

Cool, YW :) I don't need accolades, if you have concerns about anything I have done or am planning to do then I absolutely do want to hear any reasoned and reasonable objections.

I just think we might be getting to a point where its like, what can do we do now!?!!?!

"Damn right. So what can you do apart from play the same old stuff, in the same old way, with the same old people and scare away any new players?"

I don't program at all and cannot do anything technical to help out. What I do is, be very active consistently for years. I don't ban noobs (unless they are unwilling to listen and even if i do i explain why) and offer new people information on hosting/host for them or offer them to play a 1v1 game. I also give crap to anyone who does ban noobs and let them know that this further kills the game. That is my contribution.

Cool. This sounds like a perfect contribution. Keep up the good work... Just go easy on the programmers - they can be as rare as noobs sometimes ;)

And we just do something to do something as opposed to really thinking about it.

"Yeah. No thought at all was put into anything, ever.

HERE'S A QUESTION: HAVE YOU TRIED IT?

Or are you just writing a huge rant against it without even trying it?
That might be the first step in putting some thought into a response yeah?"

Kind of an odd question. Don't knock it till you try it right? I haven't done Heroin, maybe I should....right? Yet, you agree that things like auto lusting ogres would ruin the game, but, have YOU TRIED THAT?!?!? lol.....Hmm... I did indeed tried it in War3TFT as that was a feature that was optional to add. Yes, it changed the game and micro.

Yeah heroin is a dangerously addictive narcotic so that's not a very good comparison. You can easily try the chop bars plugin and make your mind up without becoming addicted and burgularizing your neighbourhood to support your habit. Please try to avoid that kind of school-yard logic, I'm sure you can do better.


Honestly, I really do suggest that you try it, if for no other reason than to reassure yourself that it really isn't some kind of crutch, cheat or gimmie. Technically yes it can help, but not necessarily.

Interestingly, since developing it I have discovered that about 9 times out of 10 (or probably higher) if 2 peons are chopping the same tree, they are at very close to the same progress and it makes no real difference which one you move. I think this is because the peon chooses where to chop before it walks there, so most times only another peon that is looking for a tree to chop in between the time when the first peon starts walking to the tree, and when it starts chopping will choose the same tree (because the first peon isn't chopping it yet)... I found that interesting. YW.

IMO The only time the chop bars plugin can actually be a real advantage is when you want to pull a peon off lumber to build something, then you can choose the one that has been chopping the least amount of time.

Yes this can be a slight advantage, but you can also stop to look and discover that all the peons are about the same stage and you have wasted time, or find that the one that has chopped the least is the furthest away from where you want it then spend a second or 2 deciding if it's worth it, thereby negating any advantage you might have gained, or even lose the game because you built the building too late and you really should have just grabbed the nearest peon.

This sort of thing is why I wish you would try it, because I think that you will find that it is just making the game a little bit more interesting, and in the end it still comes down to the individual player's skill and decision making, and the incorrect use of the information provided can actually make you lose the game, not win it.

              ^^ I bet you have not considered these things, please do ^^

Things like this and the double click hack, lessen my motivation for playing this game.

"Automatic gaming mouses are a sad fact of reality. I don't use them at all. Have never even owned one in my life. They give a real mechanical advantage to game play, that is totally different to providing information to allow people to make intelligent iniformed decisions.

I remember aftermarket SEGA game controllers that automatically hit the start/pause button very fast on and off to make games work in slow-motion, and that was in the 80's ffs. If you're still crying about that sort of thing you seriously need to build a bridge."

I may indeed need to be coached on this one. So, what you're saying is that the mouse itself allows it to happen with it's own hardware and cannot be stopped pretty much? Aka, nothing that can be done about it? If so, I give you this one then.

Like I say I've never owned one, but there was a large display of pro-gaming keyboards and mice last time I went into my local computer store, and they are not a new concept. Just google "gaming mouse" and see what comes up. There are many with fully programmable extra buttons that can perform a variety of custom tasks, not just double-clicking. Sadly that ship sailed a very long time ago.

Let's also think, what new person, who isn't big into computers, wants to constantly download mods and patches and this and that for different aspects of the game. 1 DL is all it should be, period. If I got a new game and had to do all of this, I'd be out before it launched.

"Do all of what exactly?

Oh sorry. Are the people maintaining you free server and producing your free game not working fast enough for you in their spare time after they get home from work?

Development doesn't happen instantly, but yes we are working to make that simpler."

I apologize if that makes me sound ungrateful and, as I will reiterate, I do very much appreciate all the work everyone does on the technical side of things. It was just input as to barriers of getting new people into the game. Take the personal emotion out of your answer and I ask, do you agree with me though? Sorry if my initial comment was insensitive to everyone's hard work.

Absolutely I agree with the general sentiment you are expressing, if not the way you expressed it.

But you need to remember that developing anything new is a challenge, and needs to be done outside of the normal scheme of things, simply because it is new - therefore it isn't already there.

Believe it or not, people like me try our damndest to make it as simple as possible for people like you to install things. Unfortunately there are also other people who are working hard to make stuff install on your computer that you DON'T want, so the OS manufacturers have to keep changing the rules to make it as difficult as possible for anything to be installed on your system, and on and on it goes.

BTW This is exactly why I created the plugin framework. Once the framework itself is installed (or included in the next combat release) then any new additions to the game can be easily added without having to worry about installing and testing it on 5 or 6 different platforms or whatever.... and this can mean many many cool things besides contrversial in-game mods.

But yes I am hoping that the plugin framework can be integrated into the main combat package so that people less geeky than me can have easy access to it.


Also, just curious, how many top of players, or even players that would be considered good, at GOW, support this? I've seen 0 so far. I wonder if there is a reason for that....

"Oooo the "top" players....  Wait just let me sit back and be impressed for a minute...... Wow.

Really mate. The "top" players can still sit around playing each other on gow ef and banning newbs on the original version as much as they like. It's ok, none of this needs to interrupt the eternal circle-jerk, if that's what you're into."

Your responses should be logical vs emotional as this is more of a business type scenario. Are many of them assholes, sure, they even know it. But they know the game better than me or you do from a game play standpoint and their experience and skills are a value to the game. Nobody wants to watch a noob game but everyone from new-great want to watch a real good game.

I guess you would have to think of it like this though. Do you want to continuously play a game that is ruined by lessor skilled players where you are constantly doubled or tripled with nobody giving any assistance? It gets old pretty quickly. (partly why ppl smurf) I do think everything should have some sort of give and take (donate a few games to playing with everyone) but at the same time, with people's limited time and game play, they want to play good games that are fun. Not hold a newcomer's hand and diminish their own fun. Some people are here to play and have fun ONLY, not to forward the community and they are okay with the day it comes to an end. That is something that needs to be accepted too. It's just a game to some people.

Respectfully, I disagree. "They" do not know the game better, they know how to exploit weaknesses in their opponents strategies inside a VERY limited subset of the game better.

I have been playing this game since the pre-release 3 level demo came out. I'm not a classic/ef pro but I can assure you that I have taught a few dedicated ef players things about this game that they never knew existed, and I have learned things about if from people who I never expected to.

This server was founded by people who thought GOW/EF was the pinnacle of WC2 and they have continued to tell each other this and believe it from each other. Actually there used to be tens of tousands of players who loved the game but couldn't give a tinker's cuss about that whole scene. I know, I was one of them - kind of still am although I play some gow these days out of boredom and lack of other options.

I honestly think that this very narrow focus and the arrogant "pro" attitude that goes with it has been, and continues to be, the single most detrimental thing to the health of the community as a whole. No, those people do not know the game better, that cliquey little scene is not "The Game". They do not own it any more than chop players, paintball players, the water map guys, free players or anyone else.

The one thing I absolutely know is your "pro" mentality is much, much worse that my chopping progress bars could ever be.

and apparantly it gets old either way, because we are all looking for players and hosts more and more often.... Like I've said before: noobs do not ruin the game, lack of noobs KILLS the game.

I'm simply trying to maintain the integrity of the game with my opinion. When you say "a line showing up chopping progress" and diminish it, it really does demonstrate to me that you do not actually understand/underestimate the impact it will have.

No I really do understand it, much better than you do, because you have never even tried it. Your condecention in that statement only highlights your ignorance in suggesting that just because I have not spent the last 20 years honing my reflexes and strategies around a single style of gameplay that somehow I do not understand game mechanics every bit as well as you do.


Just imagine they joy your little neurons will feel when they get to make just a couple of new pathways in that dusty old tumor we all have labeled "Warcraft II"  :)     :critter:

Title: Re: FINALLYY EVERY 1 NEEDS THIS
Post by: Warbux on July 15, 2019, 01:46:59 PM
yall might win in 1v1s but lambchop jus pwned the shit outta yall in this thread XD
Title: Re: FINALLYY EVERY 1 NEEDS THIS
Post by: Harrywangs on July 15, 2019, 09:54:46 PM
Going to try and shorten this as it seems there are only a few things we disagree on now.

I disagree with you and I figured my lazy example would be enough for you to understand the point I was trying to get across, so I will reattempt. Right now, seeing a health bar mandates 1 (per unit) or multiple clicks. A click is an action (like P or peons), an action alters game play by freeing up time/physical clicks and thoughts for other actions.

So, hypothetically, because I'm not doing these things anymore (with the hypothetical health bar mod) I keep my choke more (1 of many examples, feel free to ask for more). If I do it the way we do it now, maybe my choke breaks because a grunt was weak and I missed it. Now, he gets in my base, and now I have to do a whole mess of other things to defend, which snowball the rest of the game. That is a HUGE effect on game play that you are failing to realize.

This is not simply just a visual. You are widely underestimating the feature. They are related, yes at different extremes, but they are indeed related and the fact that you don't realize what 1 click can do in this game is a bit concerning. Seconds/split seconds are very important. Like you said, it doesn't matter (Health Bars mod not there) but there is your better example to prove my point and to demonstrate your ignorance on this matter.

This also explains my other "silly example"s that you referred to and how they are, while more extreme, absolutely relevant. I am against (most) game play changing mods. That is not some big umbrella you are making it out to be, it's simple, game play, things that directly effect the game while you play...... Example: Not pre game mods, or watcher mods, or chat room, end game stats, map view, etc mods.

Let me explain the chop situation to you since you don't understand the value of the chop even though you like to condescendingly try to explain it to me.

Evidence: "IMO The only time the chop bars plugin can actually be a real advantage is when you want to pull a peon off lumber to build something, then you can choose the one that has been chopping the least amount of time."

If I choose to chop out of my base. Especially early game, I absolutely count the chops in my head. This way I know when to go back and close before I get raped by grunts sitting outside my base waiting to see a chop. Seconds matter. Do I count the 51 to the exact chop? Hell no, but I look around 45ish, knowing it will be any second and that I will naturally be off count. You don't have to be super smart to count to 45.

Chopping into someones base while doing other things is another time I count. When I'm doing something or upgrading something that can be foiled by my opponents chop, I count to see if I need to cancel the building to block after he chops. Aka gays.

The fact that you don't know this also shows you that, yes, you know less game play than more experienced players. People that often beat me, are more experienced and outsmart me, naturally. I am not some pro you painted me out to be. I am just above average on GOW. Swift/U8/Shotgun/00s/so many other people could tell you and me things about the game that we have no idea about, believe me.

"I honestly think that this very narrow focus and the arrogant "pro" attitude that goes with it has been, and continues to be, the single most detrimental thing to the health of the community as a whole. No, those people do not know the game better, that cliquey little scene is not "The Game". They do not own it any more than chop players, paintball players, the water map guys, free players or anyone else."

I hear you, I was never a GOW player until RU, I wasn't even a EF player. Until 3-4ish years ago? I hated GOW. But in this instance, your argument has no base. You're saying GOWers don't get to dictate the game, yet I'm saying, you can't ignore GOWers as they are 1/2 of your population at this point in time. It's not 2001 anymore. If you do something that effects GOWers only and not the rest of the game, you cannot in good conscience implement it without pissing off 1/2 of the community. You will have to deal with your hatred for now.

Quote from: Harrywangs on July 14, 2019, 04:03:40 PM

    I'm simply trying to maintain the integrity of the game with my opinion. When you say "a line showing up chopping progress" and diminish it, it really does demonstrate to me that you do not actually understand/underestimate the impact it will have.
No I really do understand it, much better than you do, because you have never even tried it. Your condescension in that statement only highlights your ignorance in suggesting that just because I have not spent the last 20 years honing my reflexes and strategies around a single style of gameplay that somehow I do not understand game mechanics every bit as well as you do.

Yeah, I already told you I did. War3 example in my answer. You do not understand the game play as well as top GOWers. You need to realize that. I do not understand chop/paintball, I don't talk to it like I do. Humble yourself.
Title: Re: FINALLYY EVERY 1 NEEDS THIS
Post by: Lambchops on July 15, 2019, 11:37:15 PM
Going to try and shorten this as it seems there are only a few things we disagree on now.

I disagree with you and I figured my lazy example would be enough for you to understand the point I was trying to get across, so I will reattempt. Right now, seeing a health bar mandates 1 (per unit) or multiple clicks. A click is an action (like P or peons), an action alters game play by freeing up time/physical clicks and thoughts for other actions.

So, hypothetically, because I'm not doing these things anymore (with the hypothetical health bar mod) I keep my choke more (1 of many examples, feel free to ask for more). If I do it the way we do it now, maybe my choke breaks because a grunt was weak and I missed it. Now, he gets in my base, and now I have to do a whole mess of other things to defend, which snowball the rest of the game. That is a HUGE effect on game play that you are failing to realize.

No, not failing to realize it at all. I just think it's silly that you, as the commander of forces, could ask 3 grunts about their physical condition and get the precise answer for all 3, but not know which answer relates to which grunt. What do they write their answers on scraps of paper then put them in a hat before handing them back to you? This seems to be obviously the result of a very early (and hastily written) RTS interface, and an issue that has been corrected in every successive game in the genre.

However that is a valid argument that the proposed health bars plugin will have an effect, if not an argument that the effect is a negative one, or even a "HUGE" one, but thank you for your input.

Do you have an argument as to why fixing that glitch is a negative apart from "don't change anything"?


This is not simply just a visual. You are widely underestimating the feature. They are related, yes at different extremes, but they are indeed related and the fact that you don't realize what 1 click can do in this game is a bit concerning. Seconds/split seconds are very important. Like you said, it doesn't matter (Health Bars mod not there) but there is your better example to prove my point and to demonstrate your ignorance on this matter.


This also explains my other "silly example"s that you referred to and how they are, while more extreme, absolutely relevant. I am against (most) game play changing mods. That is not some big umbrella you are making it out to be, it's simple, game play, things that directly effect the game while you play...... Example: Not pre game mods, or watcher mods, or chat room, end game stats, map view, etc mods.

No, your silly examples were:

Hey, guys, while we are at it, it is very difficult to make peons early game consistently while microing and gaying, can we please make a mod for auto peons? I would also like auto peon management, the correct peons on wood and gold at all times please. Wouldn't mind auto attack after X grunts at a rax. I mean, we already have the double click hack we somehow allow (still baffled), why not made a mod so I can lust all 9 in one second? Also, a dk radar so I know when a dk is approaching my base so I can pull peons. Auto pull too, why not. That would be much easier. Oh, that would just destroy the game.

They remain silly examples, because they have absolutely nothing to do with the subject under discussion

Let me explain the chop situation to you since you don't understand the value of the chop even though you like to condescendingly try to explain it to me.

Evidence: "IMO The only time the chop bars plugin can actually be a real advantage is when you want to pull a peon off lumber to build something, then you can choose the one that has been chopping the least amount of time."

Haha yes I noticed that "only" after I had posted, and immediately knew that you would bring up chopping in/out. It has been mentioned before in this discussion and of course I am aware of it. For the record it was around 2am and I had to cut some bit out to get that post under the forum limit, so I didnt proof-read it very well.


If I choose to chop out of my base. Especially early game, I absolutely count the chops in my head. This way I know when to go back and close before I get raped by grunts sitting outside my base waiting to see a chop. Seconds matter. Do I count the 51 to the exact chop? Hell no, but I look around 45ish, knowing it will be any second and that I will naturally be off count. You don't have to be super smart to count to 45.

Chopping into someones base while doing other things is another time I count. When I'm doing something or upgrading something that can be foiled by my opponents chop, I count to see if I need to cancel the building to block after he chops. Aka gays.

The fact that you don't know this also shows you that, yes, you know less game play than more experienced players. People that often beat me, are more experienced and outsmart me, naturally. I am not some pro you painted me out to be. I am just above average on GOW. Swift/U8/Shotgun/00s/so many other people could tell you and me things about the game that we have no idea about, believe me.


You win me typing "only" instead of "main". Do you seriously think I don't understand chopping into/out of bases? Really?

So how is this a radical/detrimental change to the game? Are you relying on your superior ability to count to 51 to give you some tiny edge over new players so you can own them even harder?

Here's what you don't understand because you have not tried it: You counting in your head is still an advantage (obviously). Do you think that this is simply replaced by someone repeatedly switching back to the chopping peon and checking the progress bar? "Seconds matter" - if you can keep that count in your head while doing other things then you are still in front.


"I honestly think that this very narrow focus and the arrogant "pro" attitude that goes with it has been, and continues to be, the single most detrimental thing to the health of the community as a whole. No, those people do not know the game better, that cliquey little scene is not "The Game". They do not own it any more than chop players, paintball players, the water map guys, free players or anyone else."

I hear you, I was never a GOW player until RU, I wasn't even a EF player. Until 3-4ish years ago? I hated GOW. But in this instance, your argument has no base. You're saying GOWers don't get to dictate the game, yet I'm saying, you can't ignore GOWers as they are 1/2 of your population at this point in time. It's not 2001 anymore. If you do something that effects GOWers only and not the rest of the game, you cannot in good conscience implement it without pissing off 1/2 of the community.

So you speak for half the communtiy? One of the main problems with that group is how cliquey it is. It's like a school-yard mentality with a pecking order where players cow-tow to each other for fear of provoking others into open verbal feuds that can last for years. The "voice" of that community is by and large the loudest and most aggressively obnoxious.

I have never suggested that any player should be ignored. You were suggesting that some players' opinions should carry more weight because they are gow "pros", and I am saying pffffffffff to that.

You will have to deal with your hatred for now.

No their hatred, condecention, bad manners and mainly outright childishness is the problem. It is bad for the community and the game. I usually deal with that ok thanks.


Quote from: Harrywangs on July 14, 2019, 04:03:40 PM

    I'm simply trying to maintain the integrity of the game with my opinion. When you say "a line showing up chopping progress" and diminish it, it really does demonstrate to me that you do not actually understand/underestimate the impact it will have.
No I really do understand it, much better than you do, because you have never even tried it. Your condescension in that statement only highlights your ignorance in suggesting that just because I have not spent the last 20 years honing my reflexes and strategies around a single style of gameplay that somehow I do not understand game mechanics every bit as well as you do.


Yeah, I already told you I did. War3 example in my answer.

Your WC3 example was ambiguous, I could not discern if it related to trying a chopping progress mod or an auto-lust mod, so I ignored it as being irrellivent either way as the differences in game mechanics between WC2 and WC3 are so radically different.

Is the same person who is lecturing me on how "seconds matter" etc. really arguing that testing a feature (perticluarly one relating to spacial movement) on a different game is good enough to not even bother testing it on the game you are talking about?

You do not understand the game play as well as top GOWers. You need to realize that. I do not understand chop/paintball, I don't talk to it like I do. Humble yourself. [/b]

Hahaha I need to what?

Another arrogant gow player telling me to humble myself because I'm not a GOW pro so therefore I am inferior.
THAT'S THE PROBLEM RIGHT THERE

Obviously you don't understand chop or you would not even consider lecturing me on opening a base. Do you notice me suggesting that you should "humble yourself"? Serously, just think about how arrogant and ignorant you sound.


Here's what you need to do if you want me to pay the slightest attention to you:

First try the mod so you are not arguing from a position of ignorance, then formulate logical argument as to why it not only has an effect, but has a negative effect on gameplay/balance - given that all players get the same mod - or at least the option to have it.

Title: Re: FINALLYY EVERY 1 NEEDS THIS
Post by: Warbux on July 16, 2019, 12:13:30 AM
man people gotta get wit the times.. these updates are improvement it doesn't change the game dramitcally as ur bringin it up to be... ok so u can pull the chopper wit the least amount of wood to build... really??? that's gonna change the game HUGE?? come on man stop it .. we want to attract new people an bring the game up to times with out changing the real mechanics an I don't think any of lambs updates changes any of that .. stop with the negativity an appreciate what he brings to the table freely please … and we all speak for our selves so lets take count of who agrees with what befor we assume 60% of people do or don't want it
Title: Re: FINALLYY EVERY 1 NEEDS THIS
Post by: Cel on July 16, 2019, 05:05:32 AM
The only thing people argue about is about enforcing it for everyone...
Because someone said they wanted to enforce it (not lambchop) on everyone, people have instantly freaked out and raised their shields and started to argue about it.

If the mods stay optional and people can tell when they are being used or not by others, no one can be really mad about it because you always have the option not to use them, and make sure people in your game don't use them either. So every one can play the way they want you are not removing the choice from the players.

If you enforce it, then you will unnecessarily piss some people, you are also effectively removing an choice and an option / way the game can be played while we do not really need to.

At least it seems lamb is on the same page as me on that one from what I've read these mods make the game rich because it gives us legit improvements and also because they are optional.
More options is good how can it be bad, if you don't like it don't use it, haters that do not want these new options can always not use them and others can live their life happily too some may not use them but will totally accept that others do etc.

Now for that to work we need a transparent way to tell when someone uses them, and on that later point yes lamb I think a chat message when entering lobby would work or a command or a flag on the status page or all of it are good ideas.

The more we know the better :thumbsup:
Title: Re: FINALLYY EVERY 1 NEEDS THIS
Post by: fois on July 16, 2019, 06:08:34 AM
You could maybe modify the game version number (if there is one) and then everyone who has the plugins can only join the games from those players who also got the plugins. This way no one who is using a plugin (that isn't accepted by everyone) could never sneak into a game from non-plugin users.

I guess the main issue here is that some plugins are not really optional, you either must use it too or you have a disadvantage. Some players don't want to be forced to use it though, they like the game the way it is.
Title: Re: FINALLYY EVERY 1 NEEDS THIS
Post by: XuRnT on July 16, 2019, 06:14:15 AM
The chop bars kind of blend in a lot anyways. Probably just me but in the last 3 or so days I have probably played around 60 games and I didn't even notice the chop bar until last night. I think the amount of time it takes to find the peons with less chops or ones about complete wouldn't be worth it the majority of the time.
Title: Re: FINALLYY EVERY 1 NEEDS THIS
Post by: Warbux on July 16, 2019, 06:39:28 AM
The only thing people argue about is about enforcing it for everyone...
Because someone said they wanted to enforce it (not lambchop) on everyone, people have instantly freaked out and raised their shields and started to argue about it.

If the mods stay optional and people can tell when they are being used or not by others, no one can be really mad about it because you always have the option not to use them, and make sure people in your game don't use them either. So every one can play the way they want you are not removing the choice from the players.

If you enforce it, then you will unnecessarily piss some people, you are also effectively removing an choice and an option / way the game can be played while we do not really need to.

At least it seems lamb is on the same page as me on that one from what I've read these mods make the game rich because it gives us legit improvements and also because they are optional.
More options is good how can it be bad, if you don't like it don't use it, haters that do not want these new options can always not use them and others can live their life happily too some may not use them but will totally accept that others do etc.

Now for that to work we need a transparent way to tell when someone uses them, and on that later point yes lamb I think a chat message when entering lobby would work or a command or a flag on the status page or all of it are good ideas.

The more we know the better :thumbsup:
Cel they are plug ins even if u force the DL onb very 1` they can remove the plug ins they don't have to keep playin wit it .. the point to forcing ewevery 1 to update is 1 to have the option to use it they can see it an 2 they have AH … as for the plug ins they can remove em if they don't likethem
Title: Re: FINALLYY EVERY 1 NEEDS THIS
Post by: Lambchops on July 16, 2019, 07:07:16 AM
The only thing people argue about is about enforcing it for everyone...
Because someone said they wanted to enforce it (not lambchop) on everyone, people have instantly freaked out and raised their shields ....

Yes, thanks Cel.

I'm sorry if some people feel a bit affronted by my chop bars plugin, perhaps I should have handled that differently, or perhaps not, because the one thing I am absolutely delighted about is that we are now having a conversation about where we want the game to go and people are aware that there are real possibilities available.

At least it seems lamb is on the same page as me on that one from what I've read these mods make the game rich because it gives us legit improvements and also because they are optional.
More options is good how can it be bad, if you don't like it don't use it, haters that do not want these new options can always not use them and others can live their life happily too some may not use them but will totally accept that others do etc.

Absolutely. The plugin framework is designed to give every user total control over what plugins they do or don't use. Each mod is in it's own individual file in the "plugin" folder and enabling/disabling them is as simple as moving them in or out of that folder (ofc you can't do it in the middle of a game, you do need to exit wc2 and restart to do this).

Now for that to work we need a transparent way to tell when someone uses them, and on that later point yes lamb I think a chat message when entering lobby would work or a command or a flag on the status page or all of it are good ideas.

The more we know the better :thumbsup:

Agree. I am all about transparancy. If you browse through the 1200 odd posts I have made on this forum you will find many ideas, and much research involving some quite extensive details about the game internals and the possibilities for enriching game. I have never been shy about this, actually I believe I have been more inclusive and shared more of my research about WC2 than any other developer involved with the game.

I have heard Cel's concerns about wanting mod info to be available to all players, and that seems perfectly reasonable, so I will be doing my best to act on that as soon as is practical.

I have a couple of days off coming up so I will definately be putting some research into implimenting this. Hopefully it will be quick and easy to do, so I will have an updated framework ready shortly, possibly even by this weekend, although it is impossible to guarantee a timeframe, not having researched automatic message sending before.

I am also wanting to finish off the gamelog/auto squelching plugin, which I have proven the concept for, but has quite a few moving parts and still a fair bit of work to do.

Also, as I am developing plugins I am discovering certian things that are being repeated in multiple plugins such as detecting when a game starts/ends etc. This code really needs to be moved out of the individual plugins and into the framework itself, to avoid code duplication and unnecessary in-game CPU clocks.

Also the internal format for registration and declaration of plugins needs to be secured - i.e. there is no point if someone can make a different plugin and just call it "lobby map" then declare that.

So I have quite a bit of work to do. I really will do my best to get this all into a standardized package that is readily available to everyone as soon as I possibly can.


.. we want to attract new people an bring the game up to times with out changing the real mechanics an I don't think any of lambs updates changes any of that .. stop with the negativity an appreciate what he brings to the table freely please … and we all speak for our selves

Thanks bux, well put  :thumbsup:

The chop bars kind of blend in a lot anyways. Probably just me but in the last 3 or so days I have probably played around 60 games and I didn't even notice the chop bar until last night. I think the amount of time it takes to find the peons with less chops or ones about complete wouldn't be worth it the majority of the time.
.

Thanks for testing. Yes I agree. It's occasionally handy/interesting, but it's not a game-changer




GOW PLAYERS


Despite the rather spirited discussion between Harry and myself, I would like to point out that I have been playing a fair amount of gow lately, and enjoying it. Most of the gow players that I interact with have been inclusive and pretty tolerant of my noobishness, so I would like to thank them for the ggs. I do think that the culture of the game is changing a little bit (which is all we needed) for the better, so kudos to all involved  :)

Title: Re: FINALLYY EVERY 1 NEEDS THIS
Post by: Lambchops on July 16, 2019, 07:20:33 AM
You could maybe modify the game version number (if there is one) and then everyone who has the plugins can only join the games from those players who also got the plugins. This way no one who is using a plugin (that isn't accepted by everyone) could never sneak into a game from non-plugin users.

I guess the main issue here is that some plugins are not really optional, you either must use it too or you have a disadvantage. Some players don't want to be forced to use it though, they like the game the way it is.

AFAIK there is only a version number attached to the client that is sent as part of the server login negotiation. I don't think this is available on a per-game basis.

Ultimately I think a really good thing would be per-map mods that are embedded in the pud file, and the activated for a single game only for all players involved. This has been a dream of mine for a while, and I think it would be an awesome extension to the game that could re-vitalise the custom game scene. It is still a fair way off, with lots of work to be done, but it is quite achievable, given the time.

Title: Re: FINALLYY EVERY 1 NEEDS THIS
Post by: Cel on July 16, 2019, 09:50:29 AM
Honestly whether I am using the plugin or not I may be totally ok with people using it in the games I host or don't care, especially if the guy using them is pretty new its a good way to give them a small advantage vs a more experienced player that does not use the plugin.

Now ofc if I know who uses it I can balance accordingly kinda based on how good people perform with it.

If you force people to be excluded depending on if they have the same plugins activated or not you remove these options from the table.

If the host does not want others to use a plugin they can always ask them not to and as soon as lamb makes it visible he will be able to tell if they have it on that is enough.

But if the host does not care, which will be the case of most people out there imo, well he wont be impacted at all and can still play with everyone.

 :wc2:
Title: Re: FINALLYY EVERY 1 NEEDS THIS
Post by: Cel on July 16, 2019, 10:29:45 AM
The good thing with having a command to get a list of all mods used by a player or players in a lobby is that we get to have a sort of "framework" a kind of "normalized" way we can add even more plugins later and manage them all very simply in game.

If I am not mistaking the server uses a sql database we could just make a table that register all known plugins with ids and names.
Then a link table on the ids of users and plugins where we create an entry when a plugin is used for a given player and a timestamp (we can also have a version number here). Basically the plugin would just periodically send a message to say it is basically still alive and running and when the plugin program is exited on exit it sends an "unregister" message and if it crashes well when the time of the period is over we just remove the entry until it is ran again.

I just looked diagonaly at the source code of pvpgnpro it seems commands can be added in lua in that file:
https://github.com/pvpgn/pvpgn-server/blob/master/lua/handle_command.lua

We do not even have to ask pvpgn anything actually we can just go from the lua to ask the mysql or even a php page  :P

What do you think? I could be very wrong but I get a sense this could be quite simple to do?  :critter:
Title: Re: FINALLYY EVERY 1 NEEDS THIS
Post by: shesycompany on July 16, 2019, 12:20:36 PM
well it lasted longer than doom and it had places like zdaemon and skulltag .. thast what war2 needs to be no some shatty wargus......

once upon a  time like in 2009....these dosbox guru's was net connecting windows 98 and playing games surfing the web..if you can netconnect dosbox u got a 100%  compatable war2bnet..but i guess they all retired..not the ipxconnect the ne2000 connect

or just a oracle version. there ya go prob solved for mac users..or anyone.... using a modified reactos
Title: Re: FINALLYY EVERY 1 NEEDS THIS
Post by: Harrywangs on July 16, 2019, 01:14:36 PM
Sorry, the text box is so small that find it difficult to respond via quotes for larger items. That or idk wtf I'm doing, which is probably likely as well.

"Do you have an argument as to why fixing that glitch is a negative apart from "don't change anything"?"

Answer: No, I just don't consider it a glitch, because it's not. It was purposely programmed to do what it does. You're attempting to turn your opinions into facts here. You just want to "improve" it by copying what other games have done because you feel this is better. You are changing the game, period (after 20+ years). If that is something you accept and the community wants to do, then so be it. Just not something I feel is necessary to do.


"They remain silly examples, because they have absolutely nothing to do with the subject under discussion"

Answer: I've already explained how they can be relative. No need to keep going back and forth, we won't get anywhere at this point.


"So how is this a radical/detrimental change to the game? Are you relying on your superior ability to count to 51 to give you some tiny edge over new players so you can own them even harder?
Answer: There is no need to be condescending here. It is not a "superior ability" to count. An edge that you are taking away by automating, yes. The better you get, the more these little details matter. Ask anyone who is really good at anything, not just War2.

Here's what you don't understand because you have not tried it: You counting in your head is still an advantage (obviously). Do you think that this is simply replaced by someone repeatedly switching back to the chopping peon and checking the progress bar? "Seconds matter" - if you can keep that count in your head while doing other things then you are still in front."

Answer: Again, you fail to understand game play. That was one example. You do understand there are multiple, right? For instance, if I'm just about lust and the guy is starting to gay me, I check the chop, and see what I need to do. I'm not counting because I wasn't anticipating the gay when it happened or didn't see when it started. Maybe I restart it, maybe I stop it, maybe I continue. Please do not limit your views on this.

"So you speak for half the community? One of the main problems with that group is how cliquey it is. It's like a school-yard mentality with a pecking order where players cow-tow to each other for fear of provoking others into open verbal feuds that can last for years. The "voice" of that community is by and large the loudest and most aggressively obnoxious.

I have never suggested that any player should be ignored. You were suggesting that some players' opinions should carry more weight because they are gow "pros", and I am saying pffffffffff to that."

Answer: On a separate thread, I'd really love to here actual examples of these things and who everyone is in this "clique". I will fully acknowledge that there is one but I'm not exactly sure if you even know who or what it is. Sounds like you're grouping a LOT of individuals into this group who don't belong in that group.

I absolutely did not suggest it. I'm telling you GOW is 1/2 the community and that 50% has its weight that needs to be acknowledge and respected. And that is just as much for the other 50% but they are divided and not 1 large group like GOW. So, don't belittle it because you disagree and dislike those people.


"Another arrogant gow player telling me to humble myself because I'm not a GOW pro so therefore I am inferior.
THAT'S THE PROBLEM RIGHT THERE"

Answer: The problem is you don't acknowledge that these people know more about the game play than you do.


"Here's what you need to do if you want me to pay the slightest attention to you:

First try the mod so you are not arguing from a position of ignorance, then formulate logical argument as to why it not only has an effect, but has a negative effect on gameplay/balance - given that all players get the same mod - or at least the option to have it."

Answer: If our goal is to try and recreate the game and the community supports it, then it is what it is. I'm here to play War2, the game I've known and played for a very long time. Not some game that is a subset of what War2 used to be because a few players think they should be fixing and improving the game.

We obviously just have different mindsets of the game and improvements on the game. Arguing is not going to change either of ours at this point. The most we can do, is let it out in the open, and see what the people think. (even though participation itself is another issue) I'm also quite sure most people have stopped reading this by now, haha.
Title: Re: FINALLYY EVERY 1 NEEDS THIS
Post by: ~oE~ on July 16, 2019, 01:44:07 PM
tl;dr

Harry = correct
Lambchops = noob

Title: Re: FINALLYY EVERY 1 NEEDS THIS
Post by: Warbux on July 16, 2019, 01:52:02 PM
Honestly whether I am using the plugin or not I may be totally ok with people using it in the games I host or don't care, especially if the guy using them is pretty new its a good way to give them a small advantage vs a more experienced player that does not use the plugin.

Now ofc if I know who uses it I can balance accordingly kinda based on how good people perform with it.

If you force people to be excluded depending on if they have the same plugins activated or not you remove these options from the table.

If the host does not want others to use a plugin they can always ask them not to and as soon as lamb makes it visible he will be able to tell if they have it on that is enough.

But if the host does not care, which will be the case of most people out there imo, well he wont be impacted at all and can still play with everyone.

 :wc2:

im still confused to what advantage were talkin here .. by being able to build with the peon who has the least amount of wood? lol … man lamb if they cant handle that jus remove it then who cares it doenst help me at all its jus a neat feature not worth the paranoia so if we remove that then make it so every 1 uses the same war2 are we all good now ? no more issues?? every 1 can be hack free happily ever after?
Title: Re: FINALLYY EVERY 1 NEEDS THIS
Post by: Warbux on July 16, 2019, 01:59:09 PM
lets be real here … theres no advantage for any 1 if were all using the same client .. if every 1 in the game can see how much wood there peon has at the moment its equal to every 1 .. why are people making a big problem over it ?? .. im tired of playing wit hackers man u ask them for a SS they take 20 minutes so they can go photoshop it then upload it .. its ridiculous an ruins the game for any 1 playing legit … we all need to be running AH
Title: Re: FINALLYY EVERY 1 NEEDS THIS
Post by: Lambchops on July 17, 2019, 01:59:29 AM
Harry = correct
Lambchops = noob

Lambchops = noob who can actually do something for this game who owns his words and plays the under the same name he uses here.

~oe~ = Who tf are you anyway? Last login Oct 17, 2015 Oh wait I'm sure you'll just get on one of your other 20 smurf accounts and tell me what a legend you are.


He called me a "noob" :tear: OMG I'm so shattered by your awesome intellect I'm gonna give up and go play water knights :sob:

Title: Re: FINALLYY EVERY 1 NEEDS THIS
Post by: ~oE~ on July 17, 2019, 12:06:13 PM
Yes my smurf account is ~OldEnglish~ .. you're very smart...
Title: Re: FINALLYY EVERY 1 NEEDS THIS
Post by: ~oE~ on July 17, 2019, 12:13:25 PM
Oh and by the way and I do very much appreciate those that do contribute and manage this game/community. Your idea on this front is just bad though. Sorry if you dont want to hear it but most active / good players will agree. Focus your attention on enhancements that the consensus would agree upon...
Title: Re: FINALLYY EVERY 1 NEEDS THIS
Post by: Lambchops on July 17, 2019, 10:44:23 PM
Oh and by the way and I do very much appreciate those that do contribute and manage this game/community. Your idea on this front is just bad though. Sorry if you dont want to hear it but most active / good players will agree. Focus your attention on enhancements that the consensus would agree upon...

The vast majority of people I talk to seem to like my stuff, not including random smurfs, and for all I know they could all be the same person.

"just bad" is an opinion, your opinion is noted (again lol). Please feel free to contribute reasoned argument.

The only person who has managed to do that so far is szwagier

richer? cause you need click on enemy unit to check HP?
for example there are TWO lvl 5 grunts in your base and you got 10 peons mining in gold mine, one grunt got 10 hp, second grunt got 60hp, if you dont check hp for check his hp and u start focus random you got 50% to loss all peons, but if you attack grunt with hp, few peons can survive

Now player will see it
With that you will change game play to ignore more rush, just more focus to lust than now

He was talking about a potential health display, and argued that it could move the focus of ef games away from early grunts and towards powering.

I disagreed and gave a reason (not that my reasoning is necessarily any more valid than his).

But at least he managed to give a concisely reasoned argument without banging on with a bunch of subjective emotional rubbish designed to attempt to sway public opinion and make people think improvements are unprolike. Problem with that is there isn't enough public here to sway.

"Consesus", "active" ... says smurf name #581 pfffff.

U8 pwns you all again. Get your shit together or stop wasting my time.
Title: Re: FINALLYY EVERY 1 NEEDS THIS
Post by: Lambchops on July 17, 2019, 10:49:08 PM
Here's a cool thing I just bumped into while looking for something else (which is often the way it goes with reverse engineering).

This little plugin makes the mini-map refresh 4x faster so it displays troop movements smoothly. Looks much better IMO. Enjoy :)

-- edit --

:( this is making some of my stuff flash red like its being attacked for no reason

:) ok fixed that all good.
Title: Re: FINALLYY EVERY 1 NEEDS THIS
Post by: Warbux on July 17, 2019, 10:58:48 PM
niceee adding it now .. can u  make a plug in to change the colors on min map lol
Title: Re: FINALLYY EVERY 1 NEEDS THIS
Post by: shesycompany on July 17, 2019, 11:41:39 PM
dam lamb loool, yeah theres the team colors one...bux
Title: Re: FINALLYY EVERY 1 NEEDS THIS
Post by: Lambchops on July 18, 2019, 03:28:00 AM
niceee adding it now .. can u  make a plug in to change the colors on min map lol

Like what u mean? Yeah there's the allied colors one... and this one I use to make black visible on the MM.

It just makes black a lighter shade of grey so you don't miss it.