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Messages - Lambchops

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1) Server.War2.ru / Re: Sepi is afraid to play vs Ragner
« on: Today at 01:19:15 PM »
I dont know why everytime we want to judge a player level we use spb as reference.  ???

Not even sure if I've ever even played in a game with spb, but from reading this forum I think he's a total rockstar. SPB FOR PRESIDENT!




So basically, a :critter: and some hamsters tell the wolf that if the wolf does not eat the :critter:, the :critter: will announce that the wolf is actually a coward...? Logical.

Hey! Lay off the :critter: :critter: buddy...

Poor little guys, what did they ever do to you?  :tear:




2) Server.War2.ru / Re: FINALLYY EVERY 1 NEEDS THIS
« on: Today at 07:20:33 AM »
You could maybe modify the game version number (if there is one) and then everyone who has the plugins can only join the games from those players who also got the plugins. This way no one who is using a plugin (that isn't accepted by everyone) could never sneak into a game from non-plugin users.

I guess the main issue here is that some plugins are not really optional, you either must use it too or you have a disadvantage. Some players don't want to be forced to use it though, they like the game the way it is.

AFAIK there is only a version number attached to the client that is sent as part of the server login negotiation. I don't think this is available on a per-game basis.

Ultimately I think a really good thing would be per-map mods that are embedded in the pud file, and the activated for a single game only for all players involved. This has been a dream of mine for a while, and I think it would be an awesome extension to the game that could re-vitalise the custom game scene. It is still a fair way off, with lots of work to be done, but it is quite achievable, given the time.


3) Server.War2.ru / Re: FINALLYY EVERY 1 NEEDS THIS
« on: Today at 07:07:16 AM »
The only thing people argue about is about enforcing it for everyone...
Because someone said they wanted to enforce it (not lambchop) on everyone, people have instantly freaked out and raised their shields ....

Yes, thanks Cel.

I'm sorry if some people feel a bit affronted by my chop bars plugin, perhaps I should have handled that differently, or perhaps not, because the one thing I am absolutely delighted about is that we are now having a conversation about where we want the game to go and people are aware that there are real possibilities available.

At least it seems lamb is on the same page as me on that one from what I've read these mods make the game rich because it gives us legit improvements and also because they are optional.
More options is good how can it be bad, if you don't like it don't use it, haters that do not want these new options can always not use them and others can live their life happily too some may not use them but will totally accept that others do etc.

Absolutely. The plugin framework is designed to give every user total control over what plugins they do or don't use. Each mod is in it's own individual file in the "plugin" folder and enabling/disabling them is as simple as moving them in or out of that folder (ofc you can't do it in the middle of a game, you do need to exit wc2 and restart to do this).

Now for that to work we need a transparent way to tell when someone uses them, and on that later point yes lamb I think a chat message when entering lobby would work or a command or a flag on the status page or all of it are good ideas.

The more we know the better :thumbsup:

Agree. I am all about transparancy. If you browse through the 1200 odd posts I have made on this forum you will find many ideas, and much research involving some quite extensive details about the game internals and the possibilities for enriching game. I have never been shy about this, actually I believe I have been more inclusive and shared more of my research about WC2 than any other developer involved with the game.

I have heard Cel's concerns about wanting mod info to be available to all players, and that seems perfectly reasonable, so I will be doing my best to act on that as soon as is practical.

I have a couple of days off coming up so I will definately be putting some research into implimenting this. Hopefully it will be quick and easy to do, so I will have an updated framework ready shortly, possibly even by this weekend, although it is impossible to guarantee a timeframe, not having researched automatic message sending before.

I am also wanting to finish off the gamelog/auto squelching plugin, which I have proven the concept for, but has quite a few moving parts and still a fair bit of work to do.

Also, as I am developing plugins I am discovering certian things that are being repeated in multiple plugins such as detecting when a game starts/ends etc. This code really needs to be moved out of the individual plugins and into the framework itself, to avoid code duplication and unnecessary in-game CPU clocks.

Also the internal format for registration and declaration of plugins needs to be secured - i.e. there is no point if someone can make a different plugin and just call it "lobby map" then declare that.

So I have quite a bit of work to do. I really will do my best to get this all into a standardized package that is readily available to everyone as soon as I possibly can.


.. we want to attract new people an bring the game up to times with out changing the real mechanics an I don't think any of lambs updates changes any of that .. stop with the negativity an appreciate what he brings to the table freely please … and we all speak for our selves

Thanks bux, well put  :thumbsup:

The chop bars kind of blend in a lot anyways. Probably just me but in the last 3 or so days I have probably played around 60 games and I didn't even notice the chop bar until last night. I think the amount of time it takes to find the peons with less chops or ones about complete wouldn't be worth it the majority of the time.
.

Thanks for testing. Yes I agree. It's occasionally handy/interesting, but it's not a game-changer




GOW PLAYERS


Despite the rather spirited discussion between Harry and myself, I would like to point out that I have been playing a fair amount of gow lately, and enjoying it. Most of the gow players that I interact with have been inclusive and pretty tolerant of my noobishness, so I would like to thank them for the ggs. I do think that the culture of the game is changing a little bit (which is all we needed) for the better, so kudos to all involved  :)


4) Server.War2.ru / Re: FINALLYY EVERY 1 NEEDS THIS
« on: July 15, 2019, 11:37:15 PM »
Going to try and shorten this as it seems there are only a few things we disagree on now.

I disagree with you and I figured my lazy example would be enough for you to understand the point I was trying to get across, so I will reattempt. Right now, seeing a health bar mandates 1 (per unit) or multiple clicks. A click is an action (like P or peons), an action alters game play by freeing up time/physical clicks and thoughts for other actions.

So, hypothetically, because I'm not doing these things anymore (with the hypothetical health bar mod) I keep my choke more (1 of many examples, feel free to ask for more). If I do it the way we do it now, maybe my choke breaks because a grunt was weak and I missed it. Now, he gets in my base, and now I have to do a whole mess of other things to defend, which snowball the rest of the game. That is a HUGE effect on game play that you are failing to realize.

No, not failing to realize it at all. I just think it's silly that you, as the commander of forces, could ask 3 grunts about their physical condition and get the precise answer for all 3, but not know which answer relates to which grunt. What do they write their answers on scraps of paper then put them in a hat before handing them back to you? This seems to be obviously the result of a very early (and hastily written) RTS interface, and an issue that has been corrected in every successive game in the genre.

However that is a valid argument that the proposed health bars plugin will have an effect, if not an argument that the effect is a negative one, or even a "HUGE" one, but thank you for your input.

Do you have an argument as to why fixing that glitch is a negative apart from "don't change anything"?


This is not simply just a visual. You are widely underestimating the feature. They are related, yes at different extremes, but they are indeed related and the fact that you don't realize what 1 click can do in this game is a bit concerning. Seconds/split seconds are very important. Like you said, it doesn't matter (Health Bars mod not there) but there is your better example to prove my point and to demonstrate your ignorance on this matter.


This also explains my other "silly example"s that you referred to and how they are, while more extreme, absolutely relevant. I am against (most) game play changing mods. That is not some big umbrella you are making it out to be, it's simple, game play, things that directly effect the game while you play...... Example: Not pre game mods, or watcher mods, or chat room, end game stats, map view, etc mods.

No, your silly examples were:

Hey, guys, while we are at it, it is very difficult to make peons early game consistently while microing and gaying, can we please make a mod for auto peons? I would also like auto peon management, the correct peons on wood and gold at all times please. Wouldn't mind auto attack after X grunts at a rax. I mean, we already have the double click hack we somehow allow (still baffled), why not made a mod so I can lust all 9 in one second? Also, a dk radar so I know when a dk is approaching my base so I can pull peons. Auto pull too, why not. That would be much easier. Oh, that would just destroy the game.

They remain silly examples, because they have absolutely nothing to do with the subject under discussion

Let me explain the chop situation to you since you don't understand the value of the chop even though you like to condescendingly try to explain it to me.

Evidence: "IMO The only time the chop bars plugin can actually be a real advantage is when you want to pull a peon off lumber to build something, then you can choose the one that has been chopping the least amount of time."

Haha yes I noticed that "only" after I had posted, and immediately knew that you would bring up chopping in/out. It has been mentioned before in this discussion and of course I am aware of it. For the record it was around 2am and I had to cut some bit out to get that post under the forum limit, so I didnt proof-read it very well.


If I choose to chop out of my base. Especially early game, I absolutely count the chops in my head. This way I know when to go back and close before I get raped by grunts sitting outside my base waiting to see a chop. Seconds matter. Do I count the 51 to the exact chop? Hell no, but I look around 45ish, knowing it will be any second and that I will naturally be off count. You don't have to be super smart to count to 45.

Chopping into someones base while doing other things is another time I count. When I'm doing something or upgrading something that can be foiled by my opponents chop, I count to see if I need to cancel the building to block after he chops. Aka gays.

The fact that you don't know this also shows you that, yes, you know less game play than more experienced players. People that often beat me, are more experienced and outsmart me, naturally. I am not some pro you painted me out to be. I am just above average on GOW. Swift/U8/Shotgun/00s/so many other people could tell you and me things about the game that we have no idea about, believe me.


You win me typing "only" instead of "main". Do you seriously think I don't understand chopping into/out of bases? Really?

So how is this a radical/detrimental change to the game? Are you relying on your superior ability to count to 51 to give you some tiny edge over new players so you can own them even harder?

Here's what you don't understand because you have not tried it: You counting in your head is still an advantage (obviously). Do you think that this is simply replaced by someone repeatedly switching back to the chopping peon and checking the progress bar? "Seconds matter" - if you can keep that count in your head while doing other things then you are still in front.


"I honestly think that this very narrow focus and the arrogant "pro" attitude that goes with it has been, and continues to be, the single most detrimental thing to the health of the community as a whole. No, those people do not know the game better, that cliquey little scene is not "The Game". They do not own it any more than chop players, paintball players, the water map guys, free players or anyone else."

I hear you, I was never a GOW player until RU, I wasn't even a EF player. Until 3-4ish years ago? I hated GOW. But in this instance, your argument has no base. You're saying GOWers don't get to dictate the game, yet I'm saying, you can't ignore GOWers as they are 1/2 of your population at this point in time. It's not 2001 anymore. If you do something that effects GOWers only and not the rest of the game, you cannot in good conscience implement it without pissing off 1/2 of the community.

So you speak for half the communtiy? One of the main problems with that group is how cliquey it is. It's like a school-yard mentality with a pecking order where players cow-tow to each other for fear of provoking others into open verbal feuds that can last for years. The "voice" of that community is by and large the loudest and most aggressively obnoxious.

I have never suggested that any player should be ignored. You were suggesting that some players' opinions should carry more weight because they are gow "pros", and I am saying pffffffffff to that.

You will have to deal with your hatred for now.

No their hatred, condecention, bad manners and mainly outright childishness is the problem. It is bad for the community and the game. I usually deal with that ok thanks.


Quote from: Harrywangs on July 14, 2019, 04:03:40 PM

    I'm simply trying to maintain the integrity of the game with my opinion. When you say "a line showing up chopping progress" and diminish it, it really does demonstrate to me that you do not actually understand/underestimate the impact it will have.
No I really do understand it, much better than you do, because you have never even tried it. Your condescension in that statement only highlights your ignorance in suggesting that just because I have not spent the last 20 years honing my reflexes and strategies around a single style of gameplay that somehow I do not understand game mechanics every bit as well as you do.


Yeah, I already told you I did. War3 example in my answer.

Your WC3 example was ambiguous, I could not discern if it related to trying a chopping progress mod or an auto-lust mod, so I ignored it as being irrellivent either way as the differences in game mechanics between WC2 and WC3 are so radically different.

Is the same person who is lecturing me on how "seconds matter" etc. really arguing that testing a feature (perticluarly one relating to spacial movement) on a different game is good enough to not even bother testing it on the game you are talking about?

You do not understand the game play as well as top GOWers. You need to realize that. I do not understand chop/paintball, I don't talk to it like I do. Humble yourself. [/b]

Hahaha I need to what?

Another arrogant gow player telling me to humble myself because I'm not a GOW pro so therefore I am inferior.
THAT'S THE PROBLEM RIGHT THERE

Obviously you don't understand chop or you would not even consider lecturing me on opening a base. Do you notice me suggesting that you should "humble yourself"? Serously, just think about how arrogant and ignorant you sound.


Here's what you need to do if you want me to pay the slightest attention to you:

First try the mod so you are not arguing from a position of ignorance, then formulate logical argument as to why it not only has an effect, but has a negative effect on gameplay/balance - given that all players get the same mod - or at least the option to have it.


5) Server.War2.ru / Re: FINALLYY EVERY 1 NEEDS THIS
« on: July 15, 2019, 11:12:57 AM »

I'm on the anti mod side in terms of changing game play.]

Chop- You're taking away a feature of the game because it is too difficult for some people?

No. Adding a missing feature.

I should be more clear. I meant in terms of changing game play. I only have issues with the 2 subjects that were bolded. The chop and health bars.

Ok. Thank you for your more thoughtful reply this time, I will try to address it as as best I can.

There is only one. There is no health bars plugin, only the chop bars. I actually altered the prototype health bars source code and changed it into the chop bars plugin, so I don't even have that. I could of course re-create it or something similar, but so far it no longer exists. You can of course always feel free to pause and ask me for a SS any time if it makes you feel better, I won't be offended.

"adding a missing feature" is a subjective input that you are speaking to as if it were objective. I'm sure Blizzard would disagree. Just because you feel it is right, doesn't mean it is.

..most people aren't good at it, so let's make it easier, type situation. This is why millennials have such a lazy ass reputation.

"Providing more information means there's another thing to consider, I don't think that makes anything easier, just allows you to make better decisions."

Again, give me auto peons, auto lust, etc etc etc. You are not saying anything to defend the fact that you are automating a feature that requires skill in the first place. Making things easier doesn't necessarily make it more fun, especially at a competitive level.

Yes, I believe "adding a mising feature" is very accurate, regardless of whether or not people agree that the feature is valid or should have been added, I think that this is an objective and literal description. This is also not very relevant, so let's move on.

I don't know why you keep harping on about automating peon training and lust. Apart from sharing the very broad umbrella definition of "they are game mods" these things have absolutely nothing to do with chop bars.

Providing information about your own units so that the player can make decisions on what actions to take is VERY different from hacks that automate things and actually perform actions for the player without their input.

In fact as far as mods go, these things are pretty much diametrically opposed. Please find a better example.


Hey, guys, while we are at it, (blah blah blah - rather silly rant). Oh, that would just destroy the game.

"Sounds like you just answered your own question."

Right and I just related those things to what we are doing to the game. Where is the disconnect at? You didn't respond to anything.

You listed what were IMHO rather silly examples of things that would definitely have a detrimental effect on the game, and asked why they shouldn't also be done, then said "Oh, that would just destroy the game."

So you have answered the question with the very obvious answer. I'm having trouble believing that I really need to explain that response.

I do understand that you are invoking hyperbole in order to try and make a point, but unless your point is that NO mods should ever be made at all, then it seems to be a logical fallacy - i.e. listing other mods that would be detrimental to the game is not an argument that the mod in question is also detrimental.



This is why millennials have such a lazy ass reputation.

"Well I don't know about you, but I turn 49 next month."

You win that one. :)

Funny that doesn't feel like a win lol


Health Bars- Same thing...

"There are already health bars for all selected units, your own or other players. Personally I think it would be a vast improvement to have them under the unit like any normal game does, and it would definitely make the game more accessable to new users, who I care about much more than crusty old nay-sayers.

Anyway, at this stage that doesn't exist yet. If you actually want to have any input apart from "don't do anything at all" perhaps you could be more specific about exactly what you are against. Having the info on the game screen instead of the panel on the left? or was there some other thing you were thinking about?"

Okay, and there are ways to make peons already, so why not automate it? Pointing out the game has a feature already that has to be manually done is not a valid argument here against anything I've said. Again, it is a skill set you are taking away by automating.

Providing information about your own units is NOT automation.

I asked you to be more specific and you start talking about unit producton.

There is no realistic way to get chopping progress information and actually play the game as well. Not even if you are the most super autistic-genius "rain man" freak of nature that ever lived. Nobody can keep track of all their choppers and still attack/defend/build/train/upgrade/micro at the same time. Suggesting that this is a skill that anybody on earth has ever posessed is just silly.

Are you really suggesting that you or anyone else can do this? I hope not or I will just have to laugh and give up.

Not even if you close your eyes, hold your breath and wish REALLY hard, I'm sorry but chopping progress bars are not automation.

If you wish to argue that the game designers deliberately decided to withhold this information from players, and that knowing it is detrimental to the game, then I disagree but will honestly and openly consider your argument, and if you make it well enough I may even end up agreeing with you (although I doubt it), however attempting to describe it as automation is simply a fallacy.

I do appreciate people trying to do good for the game and improve things. ....It is not that I am not grateful for all that many people have contributed.,...

"Yeah. I can feel the love.  :-\"

My apologies, I know I was being overly sarcastic to prove my point but again, I am just so baffled by us changing the actual game itself. I honestly do appreciate it and do appreciate the things you (and others) have done for this game.

Cool, YW :) I don't need accolades, if you have concerns about anything I have done or am planning to do then I absolutely do want to hear any reasoned and reasonable objections.

I just think we might be getting to a point where its like, what can do we do now!?!!?!

"Damn right. So what can you do apart from play the same old stuff, in the same old way, with the same old people and scare away any new players?"

I don't program at all and cannot do anything technical to help out. What I do is, be very active consistently for years. I don't ban noobs (unless they are unwilling to listen and even if i do i explain why) and offer new people information on hosting/host for them or offer them to play a 1v1 game. I also give crap to anyone who does ban noobs and let them know that this further kills the game. That is my contribution.

Cool. This sounds like a perfect contribution. Keep up the good work... Just go easy on the programmers - they can be as rare as noobs sometimes ;)

And we just do something to do something as opposed to really thinking about it.

"Yeah. No thought at all was put into anything, ever.

HERE'S A QUESTION: HAVE YOU TRIED IT?

Or are you just writing a huge rant against it without even trying it?
That might be the first step in putting some thought into a response yeah?"

Kind of an odd question. Don't knock it till you try it right? I haven't done Heroin, maybe I should....right? Yet, you agree that things like auto lusting ogres would ruin the game, but, have YOU TRIED THAT?!?!? lol.....Hmm... I did indeed tried it in War3TFT as that was a feature that was optional to add. Yes, it changed the game and micro.

Yeah heroin is a dangerously addictive narcotic so that's not a very good comparison. You can easily try the chop bars plugin and make your mind up without becoming addicted and burgularizing your neighbourhood to support your habit. Please try to avoid that kind of school-yard logic, I'm sure you can do better.


Honestly, I really do suggest that you try it, if for no other reason than to reassure yourself that it really isn't some kind of crutch, cheat or gimmie. Technically yes it can help, but not necessarily.

Interestingly, since developing it I have discovered that about 9 times out of 10 (or probably higher) if 2 peons are chopping the same tree, they are at very close to the same progress and it makes no real difference which one you move. I think this is because the peon chooses where to chop before it walks there, so most times only another peon that is looking for a tree to chop in between the time when the first peon starts walking to the tree, and when it starts chopping will choose the same tree (because the first peon isn't chopping it yet)... I found that interesting. YW.

IMO The only time the chop bars plugin can actually be a real advantage is when you want to pull a peon off lumber to build something, then you can choose the one that has been chopping the least amount of time.

Yes this can be a slight advantage, but you can also stop to look and discover that all the peons are about the same stage and you have wasted time, or find that the one that has chopped the least is the furthest away from where you want it then spend a second or 2 deciding if it's worth it, thereby negating any advantage you might have gained, or even lose the game because you built the building too late and you really should have just grabbed the nearest peon.

This sort of thing is why I wish you would try it, because I think that you will find that it is just making the game a little bit more interesting, and in the end it still comes down to the individual player's skill and decision making, and the incorrect use of the information provided can actually make you lose the game, not win it.

              ^^ I bet you have not considered these things, please do ^^

Things like this and the double click hack, lessen my motivation for playing this game.

"Automatic gaming mouses are a sad fact of reality. I don't use them at all. Have never even owned one in my life. They give a real mechanical advantage to game play, that is totally different to providing information to allow people to make intelligent iniformed decisions.

I remember aftermarket SEGA game controllers that automatically hit the start/pause button very fast on and off to make games work in slow-motion, and that was in the 80's ffs. If you're still crying about that sort of thing you seriously need to build a bridge."

I may indeed need to be coached on this one. So, what you're saying is that the mouse itself allows it to happen with it's own hardware and cannot be stopped pretty much? Aka, nothing that can be done about it? If so, I give you this one then.

Like I say I've never owned one, but there was a large display of pro-gaming keyboards and mice last time I went into my local computer store, and they are not a new concept. Just google "gaming mouse" and see what comes up. There are many with fully programmable extra buttons that can perform a variety of custom tasks, not just double-clicking. Sadly that ship sailed a very long time ago.

Let's also think, what new person, who isn't big into computers, wants to constantly download mods and patches and this and that for different aspects of the game. 1 DL is all it should be, period. If I got a new game and had to do all of this, I'd be out before it launched.

"Do all of what exactly?

Oh sorry. Are the people maintaining you free server and producing your free game not working fast enough for you in their spare time after they get home from work?

Development doesn't happen instantly, but yes we are working to make that simpler."

I apologize if that makes me sound ungrateful and, as I will reiterate, I do very much appreciate all the work everyone does on the technical side of things. It was just input as to barriers of getting new people into the game. Take the personal emotion out of your answer and I ask, do you agree with me though? Sorry if my initial comment was insensitive to everyone's hard work.

Absolutely I agree with the general sentiment you are expressing, if not the way you expressed it.

But you need to remember that developing anything new is a challenge, and needs to be done outside of the normal scheme of things, simply because it is new - therefore it isn't already there.

Believe it or not, people like me try our damndest to make it as simple as possible for people like you to install things. Unfortunately there are also other people who are working hard to make stuff install on your computer that you DON'T want, so the OS manufacturers have to keep changing the rules to make it as difficult as possible for anything to be installed on your system, and on and on it goes.

BTW This is exactly why I created the plugin framework. Once the framework itself is installed (or included in the next combat release) then any new additions to the game can be easily added without having to worry about installing and testing it on 5 or 6 different platforms or whatever.... and this can mean many many cool things besides contrversial in-game mods.

But yes I am hoping that the plugin framework can be integrated into the main combat package so that people less geeky than me can have easy access to it.


Also, just curious, how many top of players, or even players that would be considered good, at GOW, support this? I've seen 0 so far. I wonder if there is a reason for that....

"Oooo the "top" players....  Wait just let me sit back and be impressed for a minute...... Wow.

Really mate. The "top" players can still sit around playing each other on gow ef and banning newbs on the original version as much as they like. It's ok, none of this needs to interrupt the eternal circle-jerk, if that's what you're into."

Your responses should be logical vs emotional as this is more of a business type scenario. Are many of them assholes, sure, they even know it. But they know the game better than me or you do from a game play standpoint and their experience and skills are a value to the game. Nobody wants to watch a noob game but everyone from new-great want to watch a real good game.

I guess you would have to think of it like this though. Do you want to continuously play a game that is ruined by lessor skilled players where you are constantly doubled or tripled with nobody giving any assistance? It gets old pretty quickly. (partly why ppl smurf) I do think everything should have some sort of give and take (donate a few games to playing with everyone) but at the same time, with people's limited time and game play, they want to play good games that are fun. Not hold a newcomer's hand and diminish their own fun. Some people are here to play and have fun ONLY, not to forward the community and they are okay with the day it comes to an end. That is something that needs to be accepted too. It's just a game to some people.

Respectfully, I disagree. "They" do not know the game better, they know how to exploit weaknesses in their opponents strategies inside a VERY limited subset of the game better.

I have been playing this game since the pre-release 3 level demo came out. I'm not a classic/ef pro but I can assure you that I have taught a few dedicated ef players things about this game that they never knew existed, and I have learned things about if from people who I never expected to.

This server was founded by people who thought GOW/EF was the pinnacle of WC2 and they have continued to tell each other this and believe it from each other. Actually there used to be tens of tousands of players who loved the game but couldn't give a tinker's cuss about that whole scene. I know, I was one of them - kind of still am although I play some gow these days out of boredom and lack of other options.

I honestly think that this very narrow focus and the arrogant "pro" attitude that goes with it has been, and continues to be, the single most detrimental thing to the health of the community as a whole. No, those people do not know the game better, that cliquey little scene is not "The Game". They do not own it any more than chop players, paintball players, the water map guys, free players or anyone else.

The one thing I absolutely know is your "pro" mentality is much, much worse that my chopping progress bars could ever be.

and apparantly it gets old either way, because we are all looking for players and hosts more and more often.... Like I've said before: noobs do not ruin the game, lack of noobs KILLS the game.

I'm simply trying to maintain the integrity of the game with my opinion. When you say "a line showing up chopping progress" and diminish it, it really does demonstrate to me that you do not actually understand/underestimate the impact it will have.

No I really do understand it, much better than you do, because you have never even tried it. Your condecention in that statement only highlights your ignorance in suggesting that just because I have not spent the last 20 years honing my reflexes and strategies around a single style of gameplay that somehow I do not understand game mechanics every bit as well as you do.


Just imagine they joy your little neurons will feel when they get to make just a couple of new pathways in that dusty old tumor we all have labeled "Warcraft II"  :)     :critter:


6) Server.War2.ru / Re: FINALLYY EVERY 1 NEEDS THIS
« on: July 14, 2019, 08:50:37 PM »
iL pointed out to me that the chop bars plugin didn't work in single player mode.

This version has a kludgey fix added to it so it works. Seems ok but please test and LMK if there are any problems.

Apparantly there is still an issue with SP mode. Will fix it tonight when I get home from work.


7) Server.War2.ru / Re: FINALLYY EVERY 1 NEEDS THIS
« on: July 14, 2019, 11:36:50 AM »
iL pointed out to me that the chop bars plugin didn't work in single player mode.

This version has a kludgey fix added to it so it works. Seems ok but please test and LMK if there are any problems.

Also I have made a simple launcher program for the framework for people who had issues using a modded exe file.
This loads the game then applies the mods in memory.

Unfortunately to take advantage of iL's ploader features (AH, warlat etc.) you will have to use this launcher to start the game then ALT-TAB out and run the ploader (I think this will work).

Anyway I have sent the source code to iL so he can include it in the next release. This is just for testing/interest.


Actually here it is, if anyone's interested (or paranoid):

Code: [Select]
// Warcraft II Plugin Framework loader
// Lambchops 7/2019

#include <windows.h>

CHAR szExepath[] = "Warcraft II BNE.exe";

#define num_patches 5

BYTE patch01[] = { 0x00 };
BYTE patch02[] = { 0xE8, 0x4F, 0xBD, 0x04, 0x00 };
BYTE patch03[] = { 0xC3 };
BYTE patch04[] = { 0x55,0xBF,0xB8,0x85,0x4D,0x00,0x8B,0x3F,0xFF,0xD7, \
                   0x90,0x90,0x90,0x90,0x90,0x90,0x90,0x90,0x90,0x90, \
                   0x90,0x90,0x90,0x90,0x90  };
                 
BYTE patch05[] = { 0x60,0xA1,0xB0,0x85,0x4D,0x00,0x85,0xC0,0x75,0x70, \
                   0xE8,0x03,0x00,0x00,0x00,0x4C,0x43,0x00,0xFF,0x15, \
                   0x78,0x01,0x49,0x00,0xA3,0xB0,0x85,0x4D,0x00,0xE8, \
                   0x04,0x00,0x00,0x00,0x68,0x70,0x30,0x00,0x50,0xFF, \
                   0x15,0x74,0x01,0x49,0x00,0x85,0xC0,0x74,0x49,0xA3, \
                   0xB4,0x85,0x4D,0x00,0xE8,0x04,0x00,0x00,0x00,0x68, \
                   0x70,0x31,0x00,0xB8,0xB0,0x85,0x4D,0x00,0xFF,0x30, \
                   0xFF,0x15,0x74,0x01,0x49,0x00,0x85,0xC0,0x74,0x2A, \
                   0xA3,0xB8,0x85,0x4D,0x00,0xE8,0x04,0x00,0x00,0x00, \
                   0x68,0x70,0x32,0x00,0xB8,0xB0,0x85,0x4D,0x00,0xFF, \
                   0x30,0xFF,0x15,0x74,0x01,0x49,0x00,0x85,0xC0,0x74, \
                   0x0B,0xA3,0xBC,0x85,0x4D,0x00,0xFF,0x15,0xB4,0x85, \
                   0x4D,0x00,0x61,0xA1,0x0C,0xDB,0x4B,0x00,0xC3  } ;


int    addrlist[] = { 0x428E17, 0x43FE00, 0x48BB50, 0x477723, 0x48BB54 };
LPVOID bufflist[] = { &patch01[0], &patch02[0], &patch03[0], &patch04[0], &patch05[0]};
int    sizelist[] = { 1, 5, 1, 25, 129 };


int WINAPI WinMain ( HINSTANCE hThisInstance,HINSTANCE hPrevInstance,LPSTR lpszArgument,int nnn ){

    STARTUPINFO si;
    PROCESS_INFORMATION pi;
    DWORD nb,op;

    ZeroMemory( &si, sizeof(si) );
    si.cb = sizeof(si);
    ZeroMemory( &pi, sizeof(pi) );


    // Load Warcraft II
    BOOL cp = CreateProcess( NULL, &szExepath[0], NULL, NULL, FALSE, CREATE_SUSPENDED, NULL, NULL, &si, &pi );

    // Write the patches
    for(int i=0;i<num_patches;i++){
        VirtualProtectEx(   pi.hProcess, (LPVOID)addrlist[i], sizelist[i], 4, &op );
        WriteProcessMemory( pi.hProcess, (LPVOID)addrlist[i], bufflist[i], sizelist[i], &nb);
        VirtualProtectEx(   pi.hProcess, (LPVOID)addrlist[i], sizelist[i], op, &nb );
    };
   
    // start the process
    ResumeThread(pi.hThread);

    // Wait until wc2 exits.
    WaitForSingleObject( pi.hProcess, INFINITE );

    // Close handles.
    CloseHandle( pi.hProcess );
    CloseHandle( pi.hThread );
   
}

So if you want to test the plugins, just copy the stuff in the zip into you WC2 folder then run Launcher.exe
The zip has the updated chop bars plugin and the in-channel CPU saver plugin.

The in-game CPU saver plugin is in the "disabled" folder. I think it's ok but needs further testing to be 100% sure it doesnt't cause lag, you can try that if you want.

There's also a copy of just the updated chop_bars plugin for existing usere who just want to update that.


     --- edit ---

further fix to single player mode chop bars ( hopefully done now :) )


8) Server.War2.ru / Re: FINALLYY EVERY 1 NEEDS THIS
« on: July 14, 2019, 10:55:37 AM »
I'm on the anti mod side in terms of changing game play.

Chop- You're taking away a feature of the game because it is too difficult for some people?

No. Adding a missing feature.

..most people aren't good at it, so let's make it easier, type situation. This is why millennials have such a lazy ass reputation.

Providing more information means there's another thing to consider, I don't think that makes anything easier, just allows you to make better decisions.

Hey, guys, while we are at it, (blah blah blah - rather silly rant). Oh, that would just destroy the game.

Sounds like you just answered your own question.


This is why millennials have such a lazy ass reputation.

Well I don't know about you, but I turn 49 next month.


Health Bars- Same thing...

There are already health bars for all selected units, your own or other players. Personally I think it would be a vast improvement to have them under the unit like any normal game does, and it would definitely make the game more accessable to new users, who I care about much more than crusty old nay-sayers.

Anyway, at this stage that doesn't exist yet. If you actually want to have any input apart from "don't do anything at all" perhaps you could be more specific about exactly what you are against. Having the info on the game screen instead of the panel on the left? or was there some other thing you were thinking about?

I do appreciate people trying to do good for the game and improve things. ....It is not that I am not grateful for all that many people have contributed.,...

Yeah. I can feel the love.  :-\

I just think we might be getting to a point where its like, what can do we do now!?!!?!

Damn right. So what can you do apart from play the same old stuff, in the same old way, with the same old people and scare away any new players?

And we just do something to do something as opposed to really thinking about it.

Yeah. No thought at all was put into anything, ever.

HERE'S A QUESTION: HAVE YOU TRIED IT?

Or are you just writing a huge rant against it without even trying it?
That might be the first step in putting some thought into a response yeah?

Things like this and the double click hack, lessen my motivation for playing this game.

Automatic gaming mouses are a sad fact of reality. I don't use them at all. Have never even owned one in my life. They give a real mechanical advantage to gameplay, that is totally different to providing information to allow people to make intelligent iniformed decisions.

I remember aftermarket SEGA game controllers that automatically hit the start/pause button very fast on and off to make games work in slow-motion, and that was in the 80's ffs. If you're still crying about that sort of thing you seriously need to build a bridge.

Let's also think, what new person, who isn't big into computers, wants to constantly download mods and patches and this and that for different aspects of the game. 1 DL is all it should be, period. If I got a new game and had to do all of this, I'd be out before it launched.

Do all of what exactly?

Oh sorry. Are the people maintaining you free server and producing your free game not working fast enough for you in their spare time after they get home from work?

Development doesn't happen instantly, but yes we are working to make that simpler.


Also, just curious, how many top of players, or even players that would be considered good, at GOW, support this? I've seen 0 so far. I wonder if there is a reason for that....

Oooo the "top" players....  Wait just let me sit back and be impressed for a minute...... Wow.

Really mate. The "top" players can still sit around playing each other on gow ef and banning newbs on the original version as much as they like. It's ok, none of this needs to interrupt the eternal circle-jerk, if that's what you're into.


This is Warcraft, not Nerf people, sack up.

You're bleeding all over your keyboard crying about a line showing chopping progress, then you say "sack up"..... Seriously, get a grip. If that breaks your game then you're not "good" at all. 


9) Mods & Development / Re: Warcraft II Config program
« on: July 12, 2019, 09:47:11 AM »
Cool idea. Looks nice.  :thumbsup:

Sorry I can't test it because my wc2 box is an oldskool XP32, and the config needs .NET, but it should be very useful for people using new OS.


10) Server.War2.ru / Re: FINALLYY EVERY 1 NEEDS THIS
« on: July 12, 2019, 09:19:06 AM »
this game is the easiest startegy that i played online and you want make it more easy?

wtf?

Personally I think giving the player more information makes the game richer, not easier.

richer? cause you need click on enemy unit to check HP?
for example there are TWO lvl 5 grunts in your base and you got 10 peons mining in gold mine, one grunt got 10 hp, second grunt got 60hp, if you dont check hp for check his hp and u start focus random you got 50% to loss all peons, but if you attack grunt with hp, few peons can survive

Now player will see it
With that you will change game play to ignore more rush, just more focus to lust than now

More information = chopping progress. This is new previously unavailable information. It allows the player another source of input to base decisions on. IMO this makes the game richer.

Allowing visible health bars for enemy units (which you seem to be describing) is a different thing.

I don't think that will happen in the short term anyway because people have issues with it so I will not impliment it.

But I don't think it would have the effect you are describing, because it would also make it easier to break a grunt pinch blocking your base. So this would give the advantage more to rushers/noobs.

... but as you say once they break in you have a better chance of microing peons to kill the grunts.

So there are advantages to both players. In the end there is more readily available information so the advantage goes to the player making the best decisions with that information.... isn't that the point?

Anyway this is a moot point because there no health bar plugin (yet).

Make it an option people can get just like war2observe is.

I really recommend we implement a command for players to be able to tell what known mods people are running with the game. something like the anti-hack but for mods that we know.
@iL would that be doable?
like a "/mods" command that can be followed with a player name and that would list all mods used by a player.

That way it is transparent and I am sure there will be absolutely no problems no matter how different the mods change the game.

I made a suggestion about this last time you raised it but perhaps I didnt explain it very well.

The easiest way to have "transparancy" would be to force the game to send a chat message at the start of each game, that all the players can see, just like any normal in-game chat message.

So the game starts then like 3 seconds in it says. "PLUGINS - MAP CHP CPU ALC" or something like that.

So we start a game and my client automatically says, "Lambchops: PLUGINS - MAP CHP CPU ALC". Everyone can see it and it's recorded on warvid or SS.

... now I don't know how to do that off the top of my head, but it seems like something that would be achievable and would address your concerns. I will try to include something like that in a later update.

A server command like "/mods" would be nice but that is technically much more complicated to achieve. The server doesn't know what mods a client has, so we would have to make another server type program to collect the information, have the clients contact it and declare their mods, add in a "/mods" command to the pvpgn server and then have the pvpgn server request the information about a specific client and relay it back in a message. This is a LOT of components and a lot of work. Its much more realistic to just have everyone automatically announce their mods at the start of a game.

Another possible way would be to allow you to whisper a player and request their plugins... like:

/m lambchops !pluglist

and the my client would respond with <from lambchops: PLUGINS - MAP CHP CPU ALC> or whatever.

kinda cute, but a lot more work than just getting it to announce them at the start of the game.... in the end it would be nice to have some time left over to actually make some plugins ;)


Because it is like playing a custom game kind of, sure it is different from the main game but who cares if it is an option that players can choose/control no one is forced to play free castle all day but some players enjoy it we do not have to choose for everyone.

Sheesh it just a chop meter... but ok I take your point in principle.

Well that is what modding is all about you change the gameplay and make it available as a mod  :thumbsup:

Many games nowadays are getting a lot of mods and they are not forced on people usually what happens is you activate mods or not depending on the lobby you join. If you do not have the mods used by the host usually the game will make you download them.

We can't really have that in war2 unfortunately but we can still make them visible at least and people can always go install/launch the mod then come back.


Well actually we can  :)

Because of the way pud files are structured, it is quite possible to imbed extra information in them ..... i.e. mod information.

Then provided all players run a livemod plugin, we can have mods that are specific to an individual map. When the game starts, the livemod plugin detects the mod section, and applies the mods on the spot for that game, then when the game ends, it reverses the process.

This way we can have VERY custom maps, like giving knights lust or whatever, but the mods are only active for that map.

This is why I want to get people using the plugin framework... the possibilities are limitless, but it needs to be a stable standardized platform that many (hopefully all) people are using.

It's really not about trying to upset the apple cart by giving someone some perceived tiny advantage somewhere - it's about getting a system in place by where we can exploit all the ideas and research that many people have had and done over the years.

In the end there will always be good old fashioned gow ef games, nobody is trying to change that, but there can also be so much more.



11) Mods & Development / Re: CPU saver plugin
« on: July 11, 2019, 03:22:18 AM »
Ok have split this into 2 plugins .... 1 for channel, 1 for game (see top post)

I have also changed it to count the number of triggers before it sleeps.

When I tried 500 ( sleeps 1 time out of 500 ) in-game CPU went up to about 40%, so I set it back at 200 and CPU usage is back at 0. Seems to work well.

12) Mods & Development / Re: CPU saver plugin
« on: July 11, 2019, 12:58:15 AM »
Not sure how you're doing it, but make sure you take advantage of timeBeginPeriod and timeEndPeriod otherwise a sleep call will take at least 15ms on the default resolution which is dangerously close to the limt. The game runs at 60 fps (giving you only 16.6ms time for a frame), that means there would only be 1.6ms left for the rendering/game logic per frame (Could cause lag in online games on lower end hardware and/or notebooks)

I have implimented it to only sleep when the message queue is empty, this mimics the normal windows multitasking behaviour. So when the process is busy it will not sleep at all, so there is no set amount of sleep calls per frame.

timeBeginPeriod and timeEndPeriod are global settings that effect the entire OS and all processes, reducing these on a struggling system would probably decrease performance overall.

So far it appears to be working correctly, although I only spent a couple of hours doing it last night, so please test on any low-end gear you have available and let me know if there are any problems.


13) Mods & Development / CPU saver plugin
« on: July 10, 2019, 12:44:17 PM »
iL asked me to have a look at this so I made one.

Seems to work ok. My CPU usage shows 0 most of the time.

Have tried it in a couple of games with no lag.

Please test  :)


-- edit --

Have made this 2 plugins. There is 'C' for Channel and 'G' for Game.

You can use either one or both of them. If anyone has problems using this in-game, they can use the 'C' only and give their CPU a rest between games, although I am having no problems using it.

Note: The "Game" starts in the pre-game lobby, everything else is "Channel".




14) Server.War2.ru / Re: The next War2Combat releasing soon by iL
« on: July 09, 2019, 11:10:41 PM »
woah woahhhh lamb whats this ur workin on ? i wana test it!! lol

@Warbux Ok.

This is still very simple but I only worked on it for a few hours last night.

It makes a text file in your WC2 folder for each day - like today's is called "W2Log20190710.txt".

Each game you play is logged like:

Code: [Select]
Tue 2019/07/09-15:13:17 - Game Start
Pigs n' Beans BNE.pud
Account: Lambchops
Other Players:
Sepi
PeonInTheToilet
Sepi: hm
Sepi: u two 1v1
Lambchops: damn
PeonInTheToilet: i built
Sepi: ill be making zeppelins and i show u the map :D

 ... /snip/...

Not enough lumber...chop more trees.
Sepi: any thoughts on the map?
We're under attack!
Training Complete
We're under attack!
Building Destroyed
Building Destroyed
Building Destroyed
Work Complete
Lambchops: yeah
Lambchops: anyway
We're under attack!
Lambchops: that should do something
Lambchops: cool looking map
Lambchops: :P
Lambchops: gg
Tue 2019/07/09-15:24:36 - Game End

That was a test game - yes I got destroyed lol. Thanks to the other players.

Times are UTC - YYYY/MM/DD

Still doesn't log server messages (i.e. /w /m etc.)

Have to go to work now, I'll do more on it later

 --- edit ---

I got a crash from that version .... was getting passed a bad player number for some reason.

Have updated it with a safer version....

Still in development so only use if you're interested.


15) Server.War2.ru / Re: The next War2Combat releasing soon by iL
« on: July 09, 2019, 01:17:26 PM »
i have had the privledge to do some work with the maps an map directories .

Excellent.

Nice to see 'Mr. Bean' there. Excellent Nedro map, also 'Zones' is a must have. I'm also a fan of 'Party at Midnight' - that can be a really interesting 1s or 2s map.

... and ofc I expect you will be including a few of you own too :)

good to break out of the GOW box, I like it - but not all day every day.


BTW have been working on the game/chat log plugin. Working ok so far. Logs game start&end times/pud/players/in game chat ....even the subtitles if you want.

Still have to add the squelch feature, which is pretty easy on its own, but also need to allow for config somehow (maybe an .ini file idk). Need to be able to select a couple of things like maybe an option to log squelched chat but not display it in game. Log or suppress subtitles etc. Maybe an in-game commands to squelch the last person who typed, or turn it on/off etc.

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