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Messages - Ze_sAiNt

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1) Moderated General Discussion / Re: Testimonies from Ex-Muslims
« on: April 29, 2018, 04:09:45 AM »
Quote from: BabyShark on April 18, 2018, 10:59:58 AM
Muslim is defined as one who follows the teachings of Muhammad.

Actually the word MUSLIM (a transliteration from Arabic) is an Arabic compound word. Mu-Slim. The "Mu" is for a person or is used when describing a tool. "Slim" comes from the trilateral root "seen"+"laam"+"meem" which means both Submission and Peace. From the Islamic perspective, the word Mu-Slim means "a person who is submitted to Allah (God)"

The word Islam (another compound word) is a state of existence which translates as "submission to Allah (God)".

By definition, Jesus was one who was submitted to Allah (God).

And Allah does NOT translate into "The God". Allah is a proper noun, i.e. God's Name. Al-Elah translates as "The God".

All Christian Arabs know this. They call God Allah and Jesus Ibnullah (Son of Allah).

You should learn Arabic, it will expand your mind and intellect.

Quote from: BabyShark on April 18, 2018, 10:59:58 AM
Muhammad was born about 570 AD, hundreds of years AFTER Christ, and Muhammad died and still lies in his grave.

Jesus is the Son of God, God in the flesh, born of the virgin Mary, who came here to save us all from our sins.

The tomb of Jesus is EMPTY. He is risen from the dead and lives and reigns forevermore with the Father.

The dead Muhammad can offer no hope or help to the human race, which is mired in sin and evil. Muhammad is still in his grave.

Jesus died for all people, including those who follow and worship Muhammad and Muhammad's invented god.

All who trust in Jesus Christ to save them will be saved and have eternal life with God in heaven. All who reject Christ will be condemned to eternal torment because there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we may be saved.

No Muslim worships Muhammad (well, I'm sure some Sufi's do, and the Shi'ites worship Ali and their Ayatollahs) since that would invalidate the core principle teaching of Islam being TAWHEED (Pure Monotheism). The Christians worship a man, who they consider the "Son of God", Jesus, son of Mary (May Allah's blessings be upon them).

A Muslim who worships Mohammad would be known as a Mu-shrik (A person that associates partners with Allah). Christians are technically Mushrikeen (people who associate partners with Allah/ the "een" at the end of the word is a plural of 3 or more people). Shirk (polytheism) is the root word in this case.

Jesus (Peace be upon him), in Matthew 5:17, says:

Quote (selected)
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

The Law in this case is the Law of Moses [Exodus 20:1-8], and the first Law of the Commandments given to Moses (Peace be upon him) was Tawheed:

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And God spake all these words, saying, I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Jesus said in Matthew 22:37/38:

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Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment.

As we can see, that Jesus was sent to call the people back to this original Law/Commandment as his primary objective.

Returning to what Jesus is attributed as saying, in Matthew 5:17/18/19 (and in context):

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Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Allah, The Most High, says in the Qur'aan, Suraat Adh Dhaariyyaat (The Winnowing Winds; Chapter 51), verse 56:

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وَمَا خَلَقْتُ الْجِنَّ وَالْإِنسَ إِلَّا لِيَعْبُدُونِ
And I (Allah) created not the jinns and humans except they should worship Me (Alone).

And, in [Q. 4:159]:

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وَإِن مِّنْ أَهْلِ الْكِتَابِ إِلَّا لَيُؤْمِنَنَّ بِهِ قَبْلَ مَوْتِهِ ۖ وَيَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ يَكُونُ عَلَيْهِمْ شَهِيدًا
And there is none of the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), but must believe in him ['Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), as only a Messenger of Allah and a human being], before his ['Iesa (Jesus) or a Jew's or a Christian's] death (at the time of the appearance of the angel of death). And on the Day of Resurrection, he ['Iesa (Jesus)] will be a witness against them.

in [Q. 5:78]:

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لُعِنَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا مِن بَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ عَلَىٰ لِسَانِ دَاوُودَ وَعِيسَى ابْنِ مَرْيَمَ ۚ ذَٰلِكَ بِمَا عَصَوا وَّكَانُوا يَعْتَدُونَ
Those among the Children of Israel who disbelieved were cursed by the tongue of Dawud (David) and 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary). That was because they disobeyed (Allah and the Messengers) and were ever transgressing beyond bounds.

in [Q. 5:11]:

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وَإِذْ أَوْحَيْتُ إِلَى الْحَوَارِيِّينَ أَنْ آمِنُوا بِي وَبِرَسُولِي قَالُوا آمَنَّا وَاشْهَدْ بِأَنَّنَا مُسْلِمُونَ
And when I (Allah) put in the hearts of Al-Hawarieen (the disciples) [of 'Iesa (Jesus)] to believe in Me and My Messenger, they said: "We believe. And bear witness that we are Muslims."

And, in [Q. 19:36]:

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وَإِنَّ اللَّهَ رَبِّي وَرَبُّكُمْ فَاعْبُدُوهُ ۚ هَٰذَا صِرَاطٌ مُّسْتَقِيمٌ
['Iesa (Jesus) said]: "And verily Allah is my Lord and your Lord. So worship Him (Alone). That is the Straight Path. (Allah's Religion of Islamic Monotheism which He did ordain for all of His Prophets)."

As for the claim that we worship Muhammad, then this is negated by the Hadeeth found in Saheeh al-Bukhaaree (3445):

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حَدَّثَنَا الْحُمَيْدِيُّ، حَدَّثَنَا سُفْيَانُ، قَالَ سَمِعْتُ الزُّهْرِيَّ، يَقُولُ أَخْبَرَنِي عُبَيْدُ اللَّهِ بْنُ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ، عَنِ ابْنِ عَبَّاسٍ، سَمِعَ عُمَرَ ـ رضى الله عنه ـ يَقُولُ عَلَى الْمِنْبَرِ سَمِعْتُ النَّبِيَّ صلى الله عليه وسلم يَقُولُ ‏ "‏ لاَ تُطْرُونِي كَمَا أَطْرَتِ النَّصَارَى ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ، فَإِنَّمَا أَنَا عَبْدُهُ، فَقُولُوا عَبْدُ اللَّهِ وَرَسُولُهُ ‏"‏‏.‏
Narrated `Umar: I heard the Prophet (sallallaahu alayhi wasalam) saying, "Do not exaggerate in praising me as the Christians praised the son of Mary, for I am only a Slave. So, call me the Slave of Allah and His Apostle."

Anyway, personal opinions about Scripture won't save you. The only One who can save mankind is Allah as He is the Lord of All that exists in the heavens and the earth, this includes Jesus, son of Mary. We are all waiting for the End, and then we will all come to know the truth of the matter.

@BabyShark

@3bdushakur

A piece of advice when it comes to arguing with BabyShark... DON'T BOTHER YOURSELF.

She will only hear what she wants to hear, and will go to great lengths to twist facts and invent lies in the process - her definition of "Muslim" being a good example of what I'm talking about.

Not to mention that her knowledge of Arabic is extremely poor, though you'll often see her quoting Arabic words and giving you her own version of the English translation!

After a while, I've realized that I've wasted way too much of my time engaging in discussion with her...


2) Server.War2.ru / Re: serious question
« on: January 14, 2018, 08:04:10 AM »
I can see that you are determined only to be hostile and aggressive and attack me and have no interest in learning the truth...

...I'm happy to spend my time talking to people who are actually interested in truth, but when people are repeatedly shown, for example, Scripture that says that Jesus is God and refuse to acknowledge it and still keep saying the Bible doesn't teach that Jesus is God, it just becomes unprofitable to spend time engaging with a person who will not accept evidence from a source that they claim to acknowledge as an authority.


@BabyShark - you either suffer from amnesia or you have a split personality disorder.  One minute you want to engage in discussion with me and the next, you want to avoid discussion with me.  See how your posts contradict one another:

@Ze_sAiNt

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and questions. This opens the door for some interesting and useful discussion!

You are sharing good, logical questions, and I am happy to delve into them!


If you can convince me you are a truth-seeker, rather than just an attacker who wants to waste my time with frivolous and ridiculous claims that even atheists and unbelievers would or should recognize as being unScriptural, I am happy to spend more time on discussion. But a mean-spirited attacker could make up new wild claims every day that would take an hour to answer, when he is actually not at all interested in learning, but only in tearing down.

What is your goal?

My goal for you is that you come to a knowledge of the truth and to know the love of Jesus Christ who has died for your sins and mine. I want you to be saved because I care.


@Ze_sAiNt

I want to thank you for allowing me the opportunity to engage in useful dialogue with you. It is a rare person who is actually willing to put themselves and their thoughts on the line like you are doing, and I respect you for it.

It's great to see that we are digging into material and able to talk about it, a Muslim and a Christian having a conversation and discussing beliefs and writings from the past.

I am really glad that you are digging into what's in the Bible and thinking about it, and sharing those thoughts. This is what we need more of in the world, is digging into and discussing ideas and thoughts and beliefs openly, rather than simply labelling people (as Adam J. Macleod discusses in his article) and refusing to engage in what the beliefs and views actually are, in order to be able to logically either agree or disagree.

I'm short on time atm, but will get on discussing these further with you!

Again, thank you for being willing to discuss and share and dialogue. I appreciate you for this. :)


I personally find Ze_Saint to be by far the most willing to engage in actual topics and discuss actual issues, which I greatly respect him for, even though we see things quite differently at this point. I welcome points of view and discussion, from all viewpoints and people. Personal attacks and mislabelling do nothing to promote and increase understanding. I would love to be able to focus on having an actual discussion with Ze_Saint

I can see that you are determined only to be hostile and aggressive and attack me and have no interest in learning the truth.


If you happen to come to terms with yourself and decide to engage further in discussion with me, do let me know.

As far as me having refuted nothing at all of what you said, I believe I have provided ample Scriptural evidence that you are worshipping the wrong God (Jesus).  Jesus himself never claimed to be God.  You have again and again failed to prove that.  If Jesus is meant to be my Lord and Savior and he died for my sins, then I am willing to believe in it if you can prove the following points:

1) Produce any verse where Jesus either says "I am God" or where he says "Worship me".  Do that and I am ready to get baptized today.

2) Produce any verse from the Bible where someone actually calls Jesus "Immanuel" during his lifetime in order to fulfill the prophecy in Matthew 1:23.

3) Who ruled the world for 3 days and 3 nights if Jesus died as a God (ignoring the fact that saying so is blasphemy)?

4) Produce any verse from the Bible where the word "trinity" is mentioned to prove that Jesus is part of a tri-une God.


And if you can't prove these 4 points which I reckon is the bedrock of Christianity, then I'll continue claiming that you are propagating a false religion that doesn't offer salvation to anyone.


Your best, most recent defense is the opinions of some random people who are either ignorant or evil (in order to defend a religion that endorses these evils). That argument is so weak that it simply isn't worth addressing.

So this is what it comes down to:  anyone who doesn't believe that Islam is a religion of hate and evil is considered either IGNORANT or EVIL.  So tell me BabyShark, what motive would those 'random' Christians and non-muslims have in promoting a religion of EVIL???


Taqiyya is the Islamic teaching that Muslims are allowed to lie to non-Muslims in order to make their religion sound less dangerous than it actually is to non-Muslims

And where is the source of this information?  Care to provide some evidence from the Qur'an?

3) Server.War2.ru / Re: serious question
« on: January 11, 2018, 06:33:47 AM »
This is a good question, a fair question. If most religions are false, and there sure are a lot of them, how do you know yours is true?

There are 8747 false gods mentioned in the Bible. The number of false gods throughout history is most likely uncountable.

There certainly is a designer of the universe. Even Richard Dawkins sees this, yet claims that the fact that everything appears to be designed is an "illusion" and that perhaps aliens started life on earth (since science cannot answer how life originated). The origin of the universe and the origin of life are outside of science. We can look at what we can learn from science, things we can observe, study, test, demonstrate, repeat to come to logical conclusions. It is a logical conclusion when presented with ordered information such as DNA, the blueprint for life, that is too complex for the human mind to understand, since intelligent information has never been observed to form itself, that an intelligent mind produced it. It is logical to conclude that a very intelligent mind designed this universe.

So whose mind was it? Was it an alien, as Dawkins suggests? I don't think so. Dawkins is fine with the idea of intelligent design (if it's an alien that doesn't have rules for our lives) but the idea of the true God from the Bible is abhorrent to him, not because of science, but because of our evil sinful nature that rebels against God and wants to be our own god.

How do we know the maker of the universe? How do we learn what this entity is and wants?

The vast majority of humans have been theists, because it is the inescapable reality that this world was created by someone superior to humans.

God has given us the Bible so that we can learn about Him, and most importantly, learn about Jesus, the ONLY answer to the problem we all have. We are sinners. We've broken God's rules, we've used God's name in vain, we've despised God and His Word, we've dishonored our parents, we've refused God's gifts, we've have murderous thoughts and hurtful actions towards other people, we've had lustful, adulterous thoughts and actions, we've coveted what isn't ours to have, we've stolen and we've lied. We haven't loved other people as we should. We've been greedy, gluttonous, self-absorbed, proud, conceited, boastful, hateful, and all around disgusting. Offensive in the sight of a holy God.

God's love for us was so vast that He became a human, kept the law perfectly in our place, so that He could be the substitute for us and take God's wrath on Himself. Jesus was crucified and died and was buried. He then rose from the dead, appeared to many disciples, and eventually ascended to heaven, and will return in might and power as King to judge the world.

I can't wait to see Him. Everyone who has rejected Him will shake in terror when that day comes, since they will be standing on their own account of actions, thoughts, and words before a holy and just God who judges evil.

I won't be standing on my own account of actions. I will be standing on the holy, perfect account of Jesus Christ, which He has given to me as a free gift through faith, and offers to you as well.

This is what the Bible teaches.

So why am I convinced? How do I know it's true? Am I just brainwashed and accept whatever I was taught?

Let's investigate.

The historicity of Jesus is undeniable. Jesus existed in history, and even Christianity's historical haters and opponents didn't bother trying to deny the existence of Jesus. So who was this Jesus? Was he just a man who managed to deceive a lot of people into thinking He was God? Or was His claim that He is God true?

There is a very low resurrection rate among dead people. Most of the people who die stay dead.

Jesus didn't stay dead. He appeared to many disciples, many of whom were killed for defending their faith. They were eyewitnesses, they were there. If they HADN'T seen a resurrected Jesus, they would certainly not be willing to die to defend the truth that they had.

The Bible is historically and scientifically accurate. The Bible is beyond any book that has ever been written by people. It is filled with goodness, righteousness, truth, wisdom, fulfilled prophecies from hundreds or thousands of years earlier. Look into the historical veracity of the Bible.

The teachings found in it are not of human origin. The teaching of Jesus Christ is counter to sinful man's mind. ALL false religions are based on works-righteousness, that we have to earn our way into god's favor by following rules. The teaching that we are saved by grace through faith is contrary to the human mind that wants, in pride and rebellion, to be good enough without God.

We need saving. Look at the world around you. It's falling apart.

Bombings, suicides, murders, rapes, hatred, wars, child abuse, divorce, poverty, and the grave where we are all destined to decay are a snapshot of the evil inside of every human being.

I believe the truth of the Bible because all the evidence points there. The Bible has been right about everything, from the sinfulness of man, to the fact that the earth hangs upon nothing (which was in the Bible in Job 26:7 something like 3500 years ago, which was discovered much later by people to be true, as impossible as it seemed to ancient people that something could hang on nothing). There are many examples in the Bible where God revealed in Scripture what scientists discovered much later.

The Bible is the truth, it's trustworthy, it's the Word of God, and it's given to us because God loves us and wants us to know Him and know the truth.

Nothing is more important than knowing Him, Jordan.

Don't wait. Don't ignore it. God's calling you now.

We never know when our time of grace will be up, whether we will first die or whether Jesus will return to judge the world first. It could be tonight.






I knew it wouldn't take long for BabyShark to resurface from her hibernation and come up with another "Allah was invented by a man..." claim and "Jesus died for our sins".  I just didn't expect her new victim to be Jordan!

Jordan - don't listen to her.  You're free to practice any religion you want.  There is no compulsion in religion as the Qur'an says (Qur'an 2:256).  There is no need for BabyShark or anyone else to force Christianity or any other religion down your throat.  You can see where truth lies and choose your own path.

BabyShark - if you think you're gonna be saved just by believing that Jesus Christ, your Lord and Savior, died for your sins, then read your Bible again because Jesus says:

"Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

"And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
[Matthew 7:22-23]

Jesus is not gonna address the muslims, hindus, jews and buddhists in that statement.  He will say that to YOU BabyShark, who call yourself a Christian.  Why?  Because YOU called him Lord.  He is not your Lord.  The Father in heaven is.

Come talk to me BabyShark.  Your arguments are weak. They didn't work on me and I refuted all of them in earlier threads... I find it lame that you are now trying your luck with Jordan with those very same arguments in hope that it might work on him.

Your reply proves what a bunch of whiny crybabies there are in the muslim world. Every time there is anything that even remotely transgresses (or in this case, merely disagrees with) Islam or its adherents there's a jihad or intifada, or at least a very weak and lame attack (such as calling me out as "ignorant/uninformed/misinformed" blah blah blah.

It's amazing how desensitized people have become to attacks on Islam, so much so that a guy saying in a video "Islam is our sworn enemy... read the Qur'an, see for yourself, it's a virtual declaration of war against the rest of humanity..." is considered as 'a mere disagreement with Islam'.

And yet, saying someone is "misinformed/uninformed" and "being ignorant about Islam" is being construed as an attack on that individual... who's being a whiny crybaby here?


Let me know if there is anything in the video you disagree with, and why, if you wish to open discourse with me.

It's more whether there is something in the video I actually AGREE with.  You subscribe to some nobody's views about Islam and the Qur'an when you don't even have the slightest clue what's in the Qur'an and what Islam teaches.  Not that you care anyways, you would agree with anyone who defames Islam.

I find it hilarious that the guy talking about "credentials" just finished posting a picture of a brain-damaged boxer (R.I.P.) as evidence for why Islam should be held with any esteem at all. Lol...

That 'brain-damaged boxer' happens to have his name on the Hollywood Walk of Fame... his name is actually being held in high esteem by his fellow Americans, muslims and non-muslims alike.  If that’s not enough as credentials, type his name in Wikipedia and read about what he has achieved in his life. And eventually, those who attended his memorial service (including ex President Bill Clinton) paid glowing tribute to him.  What more do you want as credentials?

It seems that your ignorance extends far beyond your understanding of Islam...

@FlyDude

This video proves just how uninformed/misinformed people like yourself can so easily be swayed by someone spouting baseless accusations against Islam.  But I'm inclined to give you the benefit of the doubt that you are posting this video out of your ignorance about Islam and would invite you to read the Qur'an and reach your own conclusions rather than listen to a 10-minute summation by someone with no credentials.

6) Play Pen-itentiary / Re: on my recent ban
« on: December 27, 2017, 06:44:26 AM »
@mousEtopher

Out of curiosity what was it that made you decide to make BS a mod? Was it because you thought she would make the forums more active? Was it because you thought she would do a good job?



Well, I have to admit that BabyShark has made the forum more active primarily because most of her posts are considered controversial by many and would naturally be debated upon - extensively at times since BabyShark IS a hard nut to crack!  Her not posting recently is testimony to what I'm saying.

However, on her doing a good job, maybe we should start a poll on "Do you think BabyShark is doing a good job as Moderator of the "Moderated Section of W2?" where we can all see the results...

7) Server.War2.ru / Re: The Case for Christ - for server recognition
« on: December 27, 2017, 06:14:57 AM »
There are 4 books of Moses; Genesis, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy.

Jessu, I believe you missed the book of Exodus, which will make it 5 books.  ^-^

Nevertheless, help me understand... These are the books supposed to be written by Moses.  But you read in those books expressions like: "The LORD said unto Moses" and "Moses said unto the LORD", which occur no less than 700 times.  I wonder how these can be books written by Moses because if in fact he wrote those books, the expressions should have read as: "The LORD said unto me" and "I said unto the LORD".

Then, in Deuteronomy 34:5-8, you read:

"And Moses the servant of the Lord died there in Moab, as the Lord had said.

"He buried him in Moab, in the valley opposite Beth Peor, but to this day no one knows where his grave is.

"Moses was a hundred and twenty years old when he died, yet his eyes were not weak nor his strength gone.

"The Israelites grieved for Moses in the plains of Moab thirty days, until the time of weeping and mourning was over."

It's quite puzzling that the person who is supposed to have written those books is writing that he "died" (past tense).

On the very face of it, I can tell you that the Lord didn't write those words and neither did Moses.  It is an anonymous third person who is relating those stories.  But who and why would someone attempt to attribute books of the Bible to a prophet that didn't write them?  Some food for thought...


When Christ comes, we don't see the law of Moses replaced, but a sinful, rebellious people is given the "grace" of GOD, whereas Moses, who is less powerful and righteous than Christ, brought the "law" of GOD. The gathering is no more to Moses and the "law" of Moses (the faithful in Christ are no longer "under" the law) differing to what was in times past, but the gathering is supposed to be to Christ now

Referring to what you said (which I underlined above), I don't think you have properly understood the verses of the Bible in which Jesus said:

"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

"For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

"Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

"For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven."
[Matthew 5:17-20]


What I understand from these verses is that there is no heaven for you unless you keep the laws and the commandments, and be more righteous than the jews.  I do not see where it says that the faithful in Christ are no longer "under" the law.  If anything, Jesus is telling you that not even one jot or one tittle (the smallest letter of the Hebrew alphabet) is to pass from the law till ALL be fulfilled.

I would claim that you are not following Jesus's teachings.  Can you prove me otherwise?

Instead of going by what some uninformed people have to say


Hilarious!

So you consider those 16 historians/theologians who have spent years studying Islam and the biography of Muhammad as UNINFORMED while you, who have never studied the history of Arabia, who have no knowledge of what's happening in Islamic countries except through carefully selected YouTube videos, and who get your information about Muhammad from an anti-Islamic site (thereligionofpeace.com) as the INFORMED one?  Give me a break.

Your counter argument to considering the views of unbiased non-muslim historians/theologians is to label the whole lot of them as "uninformed" and to then promote a book about Muhammad which is again publicized in thereligionofpeace.com.  So who then, other than you, would you consider as "informed"?

Here are some more UNINFORMED famous personalities making statements about Islam and Muhammad:










9) Play Pen-itentiary / Re: on my recent ban
« on: December 20, 2017, 02:45:20 AM »
@BabyShark

Shall I repeat my words?  I said:

If being a Christian means following the teachings of Jesus Christ as BabyShark was suggesting earlier, then as a Muslim, I have every right to say that I too am more Christian than BabyShark.

This is what I said and I meant it exactly the way I said it because I claim to follow Jesus MORE than you and the bulk of Christians do.


Your reasoning is that people who do what Jesus did and live like Jesus did and copy His behavior are Christians.

That is not what I said.  You are putting words in my mouth to be able to put forth other arguments you believe will play in your favor, and in doing so, you have once again cleverly avoided addressing the points I mentioned.  I want you to tell me you follow Jesus's teachings more than I do and prove to me how so.

However, let me quote what YOU said:

Not all people who call themselves Muslims are Muslims and not all people who call themselves Christians are Christians. Actually being the label means believing the teachings of the founder of the religion, Jesus or Muhammad.

We are talking about the teachings of Jesus here, not what he actually did as miracles during his lifetime or the way he was born or his alleged crucifixion.  We are comparing how you and I today, around 2000 years after Jesus walked this Earth, are applying his teachings and behaviors.  I've proven that I follow Jesus in his teachings and behaviors MORE THAN YOU DO.  That doesn't make me perfect or sinless but it certainly makes me more of a Christian than you.  Simple.

If you don't have to do EVERYTHING Jesus did to be a Christian, surely I and every single human being qualifies, for most of us have breathed, talked, walked, slept, eaten, drank water, and dressed ourselves. Like Jesus did.

Agreed, but the minimum you have to do to be called a Christian is to at least follow Jesus's teachings, which I've proven here and in other posts that you don't.  You predominantly follow the teachings of Paul which, if you have to label yourself, makes you a Paulian - see below.

You claim to follow the words of Jesus Christ but in reality, you are only following Paul.  Let's have a look at which of Jesus's or Paul's teachings you follow:

1. Adhering to the laws and commandments

Jesus tells you to keep the laws and the commandments [Matthew 5:17-20]

Paul says that the Law will not bring any justification but a man will only be justified by faith in Christ Jesus. [Galatians 2:16]

You follow Paul.

2. How to attain salvation

Jesus links salvation to the keeping of the commandments. [Matthew 19:16-17]

According to Paul, just professing that Jesus is Lord and that he was raised from the dead will result in the person being saved [Romans 10:9]

You follow Paul.

Paul initiated the whole doctrine of atonement based on the concept of 'original sin' (ROMANS 5:12, 1 CORINTHIANS 15:21-22). Such a concept which states that every human being is born stained with the sin of Adam and Eve, is against the Justice of God.  Major Yeats Brown in his book Life of a Bengal Dancer comments on this absurd concept:

"No heathen tribe has conceived so grotesque an idea, involving as it does the assumption, that man was born with a hereditary stain upon him; and that this stain (for which he is not personably responsible) was to be atoned for; and that the Creator of all things had to sacrifice his only begotten son to neutralize this mysterious curse."

3. Eating the flesh of the swine

Jesus never ate the pig as he followed the Law, which states: "The pig is also unclean; although it has a divided hoof, it does not chew the cud. You are not to eat their meat or touch their carcasses." [Deuteronomy 14:8].

Paul allows everything to be eaten, regardless of what the Law says. [Corinthians 10:25]

You follow Paul.

4. Circumcision

Jesus was circumcised on the 8th day. [Luke 2:21]. And Jesus says, "he is not of me who does not take up his cross and follow me" as I quoted before.

Paul says circumcision is nothing and non-circumcision is nothing. [Corinthians 7:19]

What is good for your "Lord" should be good for you, but the bulk of Christians would rather follow Paul in not circumcising.

You follow Paul.



So, I'm confused.  Which words of Jesus are YOU following?  Can't you see, you're following Paul all the way.

43. Muhammad was a good role model and we should believe and follow what he wrote and taught
True
False*
I don't know

You might not want to believe Muhammad to be a role model but those people certainly did and they did so without any hidden agenda:

1. George Bernard Shaw - The Genuine Islam Vol.No.8, 1936

"If any religion had the chance of ruling over England, nay Europe within the next hundred years, it could be Islam."

“I believe if a man like him were to assume the dictatorship of the modern world he would succeed in solving its problems in a way that would bring much needed peace and happiness.
I have studied him - the man and in my opinion is far from being an anti–Christ. He must be called the Savior of Humanity.
I have prophesied about the faith of Mohammad that it would be acceptable the Europe of tomorrow as it is beginning to be acceptable to the Europe of today.”


2. Nepolean Bonaparte – Quoted in Christian Cherfils BONAPARTE ET ISLAM (PARIS  1914)

“I hope the time is not far off when I shall be able to unite all the wise and educated men of all the countries and establish a uniform regime based on the principles of Qur'an which alone are true and which alone can lead men to happiness.”


3. M.K.Gandhi, YOUNG INDIA, 1924

"...I became more than ever convinced that it was not the sword that won a place for Islam in those days in the scheme of life. It was the rigid simplicity, the utter self-effacement of the prophet, the scrupulous regard for his pledges, his intense devotion to his friends and followers, his intrepidity, his fearlessness, his absolute trust in God and his own mission. These, and not the sword carried everything before them and surmounted every trouble."


4. Lamartine - Histoire de la Turquie, Paris 1854, Vol II, pp. 276-77

"If greatness of purpose, smallness of means, and astounding results are the three criteria of human genius, who could dare to compare any great man in modern history with Muhammad? The most famous men created arms, laws and empires only. They founded, if anything at all, no more than material powers which often crumbled away before their eyes. This man moved not only armies, legislations, empires, peoples and dynasties, but millions of men in one-third of the then inhabited world; and more than that, he moved the altars, the gods, the religions, the ideas, the beliefs and souls... the forbearance in victory, his ambition, which was entirely devoted to one idea and in no manner striving for an empire; his endless prayers, his mystic conversations with God, his death and his triumph after death; all these attest not to an imposture but to a firm conviction which gave him the power to restore a dogma. This dogma was twofold, the unit of God and the immateriality of God; the former telling what God is, the latter telling what God is not; the one overthrowing false gods with the sword, the other starting an idea with words.

"Philosopher, orator, apostle, legislator, warrior, conqueror of ideas, restorer of rational dogmas, of a cult without images; the founder of twenty terrestrial empires and of one spiritual empire, that is Muhammad. As regards all standards by which human greatness may be measured, we may well ask, is there any man greater than he?"


5. Edward Gibbon and Simon Ocklay  - History of the Saracen Empire, London, 1870, p. 54

"It is not the propagation but the permanency of his religion that deserves our wonder, the same pure and perfect impression which he engraved at Mecca and Medina is preserved, after the revolutions of twelve centuries by the Indian, the African and the Turkish proselytes of the Koran...The Mahometans have uniformly withstood the temptation of reducing the object of their faith and devotion to a level with the senses and imagination of man. 'I believe in One God and Mahomet the Apostle of God', is the simple and invariable profession of Islam. The intellectual image of the Deity has never been degraded by any visible idol; the honors of the prophet have never transgressed the measure of human virtue, and his living precepts have restrained the gratitude of his disciples within the bounds of reason and religion."


6. Rev. Bosworth Smith, Mohammed and Mohammadanism, London 1874, p. 92

"He was Caesar and Pope in one; but he was Pope without Pope's pretensions, Caesar without the legions of Caesar: without a standing army, without a bodyguard, without a palace, without a fixed revenue; if ever any man had the right to say that he ruled by the right divine, it was Mohammed, for he had all the power without its instruments and without its supports."


7. Annie Besant, The Life and Teachings of Muhammad, Madras 1932, p. 4

"It is impossible for anyone who studies the life and character of the great Prophet of Arabia, who knows how he taught and how he lived, to feel anything but reverence for that mighty Prophet, one of the great messengers of the Supreme. And although in what I put to you I shall say many things which may be familiar to many, yet I myself feel whenever I re-read them, a new way of admiration, a new sense of reverence for that mighty Arabian teacher."


8. Montgomery Watt, Mohammad at Mecca, Oxford 1953, p. 52

"His readiness to undergo persecutions for his beliefs, the high moral character of the men who believed in him and looked up to him as leader, and the greatness of his ultimate achievement – all argue his fundamental integrity. To suppose Muhammad an impostor raises more problems than it solves. Moreover, none of the great figures of history is so poorly appreciated in the West as Muhammad."


9. James A. Michener, 'Islam: The Misunderstood Religion' in Reader's Digest (American Edition), May 1955, pp. 68-70

"Muhammad, the inspired man who founded Islam, was born about A.D. 570 into an Arabian tribe that worshipped idols. Orphaned at birth, he was always particularly solicitous of the poor and needy, the widow and the orphan, the slave and the downtrodden. At twenty he was already a successful businessman, and soon became director of camel caravans for a wealthy widow. When he reached twenty-five, his employer, recognizing his merit, proposed marriage. Even though she was fifteen years older, he married her, and as long as she lived, remained a devoted husband.

"Like almost every major prophet before him, Muhammad fought shy of serving as the transmitter of God's word, sensing his own inadequacy. But the angel commanded 'Read'. So far as we know, Muhammad was unable to read or write, but he began to dictate those inspired words which would soon revolutionize a large segment of the earth: "There is one God."

"In all things Muhammad was profoundly practical. When his beloved son Ibrahim died, an eclipse occurred, and rumors of God's personal condolence quickly arose. Whereupon Muhammad is said to have announced, 'An eclipse is a phenomenon of nature. It is foolish to attribute such things to the death or birth of a human-being.'"

"At Muhammad's own death an attempt was made to deify him, but the man who was to become his administrative successor killed the hysteria with one of the noblest speeches in religious history: 'If there are any among you who worshipped Muhammad, he is dead. But if it is God you worshipped, He lives forever.'"


10. Michael H. Hart, The 100: A Ranking of the Most Influential Persons in History, New York: Hart Publishing Company, Inc. 1978, p. 33

"My choice of Muhammad to lead the list of the world's most influential persons may surprise some readers and may be questioned by others, but he was the only man in history who was supremely successful on both the religious and secular level."

"...It is probable that the relative influence of Muhammad on Islam has been larger than the combined influence of Jesus Christ and St. Paul on Christianity. ...It is this unparalleled combination of secular and religious influence which I feel entitles Muhammad to be considered the most influential single figure in human history."


11. Sarojini Naidu, the famous Indian poetess says – S. Naidu, Ideals of Islam, Speeches and Writings, Madaras, 1918

“It was the first religion that preached and practiced democracy; for, in the mosque, when the call for prayer is sounded and worshippers are gathered together, the democracy of Islam is embodied five times a day when the peasant and king kneel side by side and proclaim: 'God Alone is Great'... “


12. Thomas Caryle – Heros and Heros Worship

“…The lies (Western slander) which well-meaning zeal has heaped round this man (Muhammed) are disgraceful to ourselves only…How one man single-handedly, could weld warring tribes and wandering Bedouins into a most powerful and civilized nation in less than two decades….A silent great soul, one of that who cannot but be earnest. He was to kindle the world; the world’s Maker had ordered so."


13. Stanley Lane-Poole – Table Talk of the Prophet

“He was the most faithful protector of those he protected, the sweetest and most agreeable in conversation. Those who saw him were suddenly filled with reverence; those who came near him loved him; they who described him would say, "I have never seen his like either before or after." He was of great taciturnity, but when he spoke it was with emphasis and deliberation, and no one could forget what he said...”


14. Dr. William Draper, "A History of the Intellectual Development of Europe"

"Four years after the death of Justinian, A.D. 569, was born in Mecca, in Arabia, the man who, of all men, has exercised the greatest influence upon the human race... To be the religious head of many empires, to guide the daily life of one-third of the human race, may perhaps justify the title of a Messenger of God."


15. Leo Tolstoy - The Rule of Prophet Mohammed

“Muhammad has always been standing higher than the Christianity. He does not consider god as a human being and never makes himself equal to God. Muslims worship nothing except God and Muhammad is his Messenger. There is no any mystery and secret in it.”


16. K. S. Ramakrishna Rao - 'Mohammed: The Prophet of Islam,' 1989

"Today after a lapse of fourteen centuries, the life and teachings of Muhammad have survived without the slightest loss, alteration or interpolation. They offer the same undying hope for treating mankind’s many ills, which they did when he was alive. This is not a claim of Muhammad’s followers but also the inescapable conclusion forced upon by a critical and unbiased history."

""The personality of Muhammad is most difficult to get the whole truth of it. Only a glimpse of him I can catch. What dramatic succession of picturesque scenes? There is Muhammad the Prophet; there is Muhammad the General; Muhammad the King; Muhammad the Warrior; Muhammad the Businessman; Muhammad the Preacher; Muhammad the Philosopher; Muhammad the Statesman; Muhammad the Orator; Muhammad the Reformer; Muhammad the Refuge of Orphans; Muhammad the Protector of Slaves; Muhammad the Emancipator of Women; Muhammad the Judge; Muhammad the Saint... In all these magnificent roles and in all these departments of human activities he is equally a hero."


@BabyShark
How do you compare to these great theologians and historians?  Why should anyone believe your words over theirs?

11) Play Pen-itentiary / Re: on my recent ban
« on: December 19, 2017, 06:20:46 AM »
im more of a Christian than you, i say with all possible humility


If being a Christian means following the teachings of Jesus Christ as BabyShark was suggesting earlier, then as a Muslim, I have every right to say that I too am more Christian than BabyShark.  And here's my proof:

1) Jesus fell on his face and prayed to God (in the Garden of Gethsemane - Matthew 26:39).  I fall on my face five times a day and pray.  Christians don't.

2) Jesus never ate the pig/pork/ham or whatever you wanna call it.  I don't eat pigs and neither do muslims at large.  Most Christians are pig eaters.

3) Jesus was circumcised and so am I.  The majority of Christians are not.

4) Jesus is portrayed with a beard in most illustrations.  I keep a beard.  Most Christians don't.  Incidentally, almost all illustrations of Jesus's mother (Mary) portray her wearing a head scarf.  Guess who wears a head scarf today - the Muslim woman or the Christian woman?

5) Jesus used to offer the greetings of peace (Luke 10:5, Luke 24:36, John 20:19, John 20:21, John 20:26).  I and all muslims do that today.  Christians don't.

6) Jesus prayed to the father in heaven (God Almighty).  Jesus taught about the unity of God (Mark 12:29).  He submitted his will to God (Luke 22:42).  Jesus was a Muslim by definition.  I submit my will to God.  Christians believe Jesus died for their sins (which is Paul's teachings, not that of Jesus).

@BabyShark
I usually don't post YouTube videos but since you seem to have plenty of time on your hands writing long posts, this video might be of interest to you:

Do Muslims follow Jesus Christ more than Christians? Dr. Laurence Brown on The Deen Show - YouTube

12) Moderated General Discussion / Re: WOMEN'S RIGHTS and FEMINISM
« on: December 14, 2017, 09:46:34 AM »
@BabyShark

Why does God have to go out of his way to relate to mankind such filthy and dirty stories in such detail in the Bible?  The kind of immorality that happens in America is a direct consequence of what you Christians are reading in your Bible.

The Bible gives us a beautiful test with regard to the 'inspired' words of God.  The Bible says:

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" [2 Timothy 3:16]

If the Bible is the word of God, it should prove one of these 4 points.  Any revelation coming from God should serve some purpose; it is not for people's entertainment.  There are lessons to be learnt from the inspired verses of the Bible.  And I agree.

Let's now apply this test to some particular verses of the Bible:

"Sometime later, Samson went to Gaza, saw a prostitute there, and went in to have sex with her. " [Judges 16:1]

So, Samson goes to Gaza, and saw a prostitute there and had sex with her.  FULL STOP.  There is not a single redeeming word that follows.  Now let's see how this fits into the test I gave above:

1) Doctrine - is that your teaching?  That when you go to a certain place and see a harlot, you have sex with her?
2) Reproof - was there any reproof given by God that He will punish Samson and put him in hell?
3) Correction - did God correct him in any way?  This guy, Samson, is instead portrayed as a hero!
4) Instruction in righteousness - not a single instruction is given.

Everyone will agree that you can't fit this verse anywhere.  And if you can't, it falls under pornography.

Let's have a look at another verse:

"While he was living there, Reuben had intercourse with Bilhah, his father’s concubine, and Jacob soon heard about it." [Genesis 35:22]

Note: Concubine and Wife are synonymous terms in the Bible (refer to Genesis 25:1 and 1 Chronocles 1:32 with regard to "Keturah").

So, Reuben had sex with his father's (Jacob's) wife and Jacob heard about it.  Then what?  Nothing.  FULL STOP.  NO MORE CONTEXT.

Jacob didn't react at all.  He didn't reprimand his son in the least.  He didn't even give him a slap!  So what is the moral?  It teaches you that INCEST IS CONDONED IN THE BIBLE.


Another example of how incest is glorified in the Bible is in Genesis Chapter 38.  You read about Judah, the father of the Jewish race.  He went to Timnath to shear his sheep.  On the way, he sees a woman sitting by the way side.  Thinking she's a prostitute (not knowing that it was actually his daughter-in-law), he comes up to and says:

"ALL RIGHT, HOW MUCH DO YOU CHARGE?" &

"She said what will you give me?" (To have sex with me).

"He answered, I WILL SEND YOU A YOUNG GOAT FROM MY FLOCK.

"She said, "All right, if you will give me something to keep as a pledge until you send the goat.

". . . He gave them (the pledges) to her. Then had INTERCOURSE, and she became pregnant. " [Genesis 38:15-18]


Out of this incestuous relationship between a father-in-law and his daughter-in-law, twins were born, who were destined to become the great-grand-fathers of Jesus Christ - see Matthew 1:3

"And Judas begat Phares and Zarah of Thamar ..."





Imagine, children of INCEST being glorified in a book of God.  What is the moral?

13) Moderated General Discussion / Re: WOMEN'S RIGHTS and FEMINISM
« on: December 12, 2017, 03:25:54 AM »
First of all, this is not a game. These topics have to do with real life.

There are real life girls and women being abused, tortured, mutilated, stoned, beaten, raped, and killed every day in Islamic countries. This is reality.

This is not a game.

I'm still baffled by your poor understanding of your own native English language.  So, here we go...  This is English 101 for today:

Being beaten at one's own game is an idiom.  It does not actually mean a game is being played.  It means: "To defeat or triumph over someone by using their own strengths, techniques, or tactics to one's own advantage"

Isn't that what you've been trying to do all along?  You use tactics of quoting verses from the Qur'an and using Hadith quotations out of their historical context to prove Islam promotes violence.  So I showed you that your very own Bible glorifies violence, accepts the sexual abuse of young girls and supports mutilation, in the words of Anne Spicer.

Either you can't understand English or you are playing dumb and taking everything I say in its literal meaning, thereby avoiding to comment on the core of the matter by distracting the readers with beautiful necklaces of words?  I'll let the others be the judge of that...

I am here to speak for the victims of abuse and oppression, because I care about them.

Great.  So let's start with the victims of abuse in your own country, America:

The following facts and statistics, drawn from the National Center for Victims of Crime "Child Sexual Abuse" fact sheet, reveals the scope of child sexual abuse in the U.S. and its devastating long-term impact on a child's life:

1. The almost 90,000 cases of child sexual abuse reported each year fall far short of the actual number. Abuse frequently goes unreported because child victims are afraid to tell anyone what happened and the legal procedure for validating an episode is difficult. (American Academy of Child & Adolescent Psychiatry)

2. An estimated 25% of girls and 16% of boys experience sexual abuse before they are 18 years old. Statistics for boys may be falsely low because of reporting techniques. (Ann Botash, MD, in Pediatric Annual, May 1997.)

Of all victims of sexual assault reported to law enforcement agencies:
- 67% were under age 18
- 34% were under age 12
- 14% were under age 6

3. Of offenders who victimized children under age 6, 40% were under age 18. (Bureau of Justice Statistics, 2000.)

4. Despite what children are taught about "stranger danger," most child victims are abused by someone they know and trust. When the abuser is not a family member, the victim is more often a boy than a girl. The results of a three-state study of reported rape survivors under age 12 revealed the following about offenders:

- 96% were known to their victims
- 50% were acquaintances or friends
- 20% were fathers
- 16% were relatives
- 4% were strangers
(Advocates for Youth, 1995)

5. Girls are the victims of incest and/or intrafamily sexual abuse much more frequently than boys. Between 33-50% of perpetrators who sexually abuse girls are family members, while only 10-20% of those who sexually abuse boys are intrafamily perpetrators. Intrafamily abuse continues over a longer period of time than sexual abuse outside the family, and some forms -- such as parent-child abuse -- have more serious and lasting consequences.(Finkelhor, 1994.)

6. Behavioral changes are often the first signs of sexual abuse. These can include nervous or aggressive behavior toward adults, early and age-inappropriate sexual provocativeness, alcohol consumption and the use of other drugs. Boys are more likely than girls to act out or behave in aggressive and antisocial ways. (Finkelhor, 1994.)

7. The consequences of child sexual abuse are wide-ranging and varied. They can include:

- chronic depression
- low self-esteem
- sexual dysfunction
- multiple personalities

According to the American Medical Association, 20% of all victims develop serious long-term psychological problems. They may take the form of:

- dissociative responses and other signs of post-traumatic stress syndrome
- chronic states of arousal
- nightmares
- flashbacks
- venereal disease
- anxiety over sex
- fear of exposing the body during medical exams
("Child Sexual Abuse: Does the Nation Face an Epidemic - or a Wave of Hysteria?" CQ Researcher, 1993.)


This is what happens when you read "the most dangerous book on Earth" which promotes sexual abuse of young girls, condones incest and glorifies rape.  People's minds are getting programmed by such immorality.  YOU need to help them by telling them to STOP READING SUCH FILTH IN THE BIBLE.  This is not a Book of God.  God doesn't 'inspire' people to write such immorality.  This is Satan's handiwork.

But this is just the tip of the iceberg.  There are more and more problems in America, according to Reverand Jimmy Swaggart.

He writes in his book on "The Dangers of Alcohol":

There are 11 million drunkards in America and 44 million heavy drinkers. And Jimmy Swaggart says he sees no difference between the two. That means 55 million, he sees all of them to be drunkards.

What did this?  The Bible.  In his very first miracle, Jesus turned water into wine (John 2:7-10) and since then, wine has flowed like water in Christendom.  There's no stopping it now.  And it's the same W-I-N-E that Lot drank and had sex with his own daughters according to the Bible.

And further, according to Reverand Billy Graham in his book on "Homosexuality", he says: "If God doesn't soon bring judgment upon America, He'll have to go back and apologize to Sodom and Gomorrah!".  You now have millions of gays and lesbians in America and your statistics tell us that the numbers are not about to decrease in the future.  How are you dealing with this problem?

Then you have pornography that is being depicted in the Bible.  Ezekiel Chapter 23 "Whoredoms of the 2 Sisters", Ezekiel Chapter 16 "Jerusalem, the Insatiable Whore" to name a few.  The more people read this Bible, the more they become programmed to believe that porn is acceptable.

So BabyShark, before you go all 'Mother Theresa' and try to change the world, start by helping with the victims in your own country.  American Christian families are suffering.  They are being torn apart.  The Bible has caused (and is still causing) chaos in the life of innocent Christians.  It's is time to stop all this.  Pick up your "BAN THE BIBLE" sign and start propagating this to the world.  The world WILL become a better place with your help.

I pray to God that He helps you in this mission. Amen.

14) Moderated General Discussion / Re: WOMEN'S RIGHTS and FEMINISM
« on: December 11, 2017, 06:06:26 AM »
@BabyShark

If you think that 'hand amputation' is the only type of abuse promoted in the Bible, you are sadly mistaken.  I was only giving you a flavor of the kind of lunacy you are condoning by letting people read the Bible.  Your sign should actually read "BAN THE BIBLE" instead because of the immorality and violence it contains.

But wait a minute... a Christian lady already appealed to have the Bible banned!  Anne Spicer, an Irish Christian lady made an appeal to the Irish Censorship Board in 1988 to have the Bible banned.  Here is the quote from the Irish newspaper "The Canberra Times", Friday February 12, 1988:

DUBLIN, Thursday (Reuter), -
A Dublin housewife has asked Irish censors to ban the Bible because she says it glorifies violence, accepts the sexual abuse of young girls and supports mutilation.

"Mutilation and genocide coupled with graphic obscenity and ritual murder is a prominent theme and indeed many of the heroes and heroines are extolled for their murderous ability and promiscuous prowess," 34-year-old Mrs Anne Spicer said.



And she had a very valid point.  Because when you read the Bible, you find that:

1) There are 10 cases of incest in the Bible.  It depicts the types and types of incest that someone can commit.  One example is a father-in-law having intercourse with his daughter-in-law (Genesis 38:12-18)

As a result, incest has reached epidemic proportions in America says Reverend Jimmy Swaggart in his book "Incest : the dark stain on our society, 1987".

Dr. Vernon Jones, an American psychologist of great repute, carried out experiments on groups of school children to whom certain stories were being read. And he said, “These stories make certain slight but permanent changes in character even in the narrow classroom situation.” The type of stories that you read will create the type of mentality that you are going to have.

2) It is a textbook on rape / gang-rape.  Here are a few examples:

- If you want to know how to rape your own sister, the Bible tells you how to (2 Samuel 13:6).

- Wholesale rape between son and 10 of his father's wives (2 Samuel 16:22)

3) It contains pornographic materials - things no decent man could ever read to his wife, his daughter, his sister or even to his fiancée if she is a good woman.

Read Ezekiel Chapter 23 "Whoredoms of the 2 Sisters", Ezekiel Chapter 16 "Jerusalem, the Insatiable Whore", and more and more... I dare not quote verses of these chapters here, else I might be banned for vulgarity and obscenity!

4) It contains verses promoting violence - like:

- “Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.” [Numbers 31:17-18]

- "He struck down some of the men of Beth-shemesh because they had looked into the ark of the LORD. He struck down of all the people, 50,070 men, and the people mourned because the LORD had struck the people with a great slaughter." [1 Samuel 6:19]

- "Then the Philistines seized him and gouged out his eyes; and they brought him down to Gaza and bound him with bronze chains, and he was a grinder in the prison." [Judges 16:21]

- "Then David commanded the young men, and they killed them and cut off their hands and feet and hung them up beside the pool in Hebron But they took the head of Ish-bosheth and buried it in the grave of Abner in Hebron." [2 Samuel 4:12]


No wonder George Bernard Shaw said about the Bible:

“THE MOST DANGEROUS BOOK ON EARTH “(the Bible), KEEP IT UNDER LOCK AND KEY.” Keep the Bible out of your children's reach.




@BabyShark

You are being beaten again and again at your own game.  Everything you have said about Islam and the Qur'an has backfired on you.  My advice to you is, as Jesus rightly said:

"Do not judge others, and you will not be judged. For you will be treated as you treat others. The standard you use in judging is the standard by which you will be judged." [Matthew 7:1-3]

15) Moderated General Discussion / Re: WOMEN'S RIGHTS and FEMINISM
« on: December 10, 2017, 08:16:59 AM »
@BabyShark

You can post all the YouTube videos you want in an attempt to promote a twisted view of Islam, but you're only fooling yourself.

Despite all the mutilating and stoning and clitoris cutting and whatever else you are trying to attribute to Islam, it's mind-boggling to know that Islam is still the fastest growing religion in the world today and worse even for you to digest, American women are flocking towards Islam.  You are unable to account for that.  That, and the other point I mentioned earlier that you dare not comment on until now:

The picture that David Wood is trying to paint of Muhammad is that of an oppressor and a dictator.  But if you want to know the truth about Muhammad, then let's hear what non-muslim (and mostly christian) scholars and historians have to say about Muhammad and Islam:

1. George Bernard Shaw - The Genuine Islam Vol.No.8, 1936

"If any religion had the chance of ruling over England, nay Europe within the next hundred years, it could be Islam."

“I believe if a man like him were to assume the dictatorship of the modern world he would succeed in solving its problems in a way that would bring much needed peace and happiness.
I have studied him - the man and in my opinion is far from being an anti–Christ. He must be called the Savior of Humanity.
I have prophesied about the faith of Mohammad that it would be acceptable the Europe of tomorrow as it is beginning to be acceptable to the Europe of today.”


2. Nepolean Bonaparte – Quoted in Christian Cherfils BONAPARTE ET ISLAM (PARIS  1914)

“I hope the time is not far off when I shall be able to unite all the wise and educated men of all the countries and establish a uniform regime based on the principles of Qur'an which alone are true and which alone can lead men to happiness.”


3. M.K.Gandhi, YOUNG INDIA, 1924

"...I became more than ever convinced that it was not the sword that won a place for Islam in those days in the scheme of life. It was the rigid simplicity, the utter self-effacement of the prophet, the scrupulous regard for his pledges, his intense devotion to his friends and followers, his intrepidity, his fearlessness, his absolute trust in God and his own mission. These, and not the sword carried everything before them and surmounted every trouble."


4. Lamartine - Histoire de la Turquie, Paris 1854, Vol II, pp. 276-77

"If greatness of purpose, smallness of means, and astounding results are the three criteria of human genius, who could dare to compare any great man in modern history with Muhammad? The most famous men created arms, laws and empires only. They founded, if anything at all, no more than material powers which often crumbled away before their eyes. This man moved not only armies, legislations, empires, peoples and dynasties, but millions of men in one-third of the then inhabited world; and more than that, he moved the altars, the gods, the religions, the ideas, the beliefs and souls... the forbearance in victory, his ambition, which was entirely devoted to one idea and in no manner striving for an empire; his endless prayers, his mystic conversations with God, his death and his triumph after death; all these attest not to an imposture but to a firm conviction which gave him the power to restore a dogma. This dogma was twofold, the unit of God and the immateriality of God; the former telling what God is, the latter telling what God is not; the one overthrowing false gods with the sword, the other starting an idea with words.

"Philosopher, orator, apostle, legislator, warrior, conqueror of ideas, restorer of rational dogmas, of a cult without images; the founder of twenty terrestrial empires and of one spiritual empire, that is Muhammad. As regards all standards by which human greatness may be measured, we may well ask, is there any man greater than he?"


5. Edward Gibbon and Simon Ocklay  - History of the Saracen Empire, London, 1870, p. 54

"It is not the propagation but the permanency of his religion that deserves our wonder, the same pure and perfect impression which he engraved at Mecca and Medina is preserved, after the revolutions of twelve centuries by the Indian, the African and the Turkish proselytes of the Koran...The Mahometans have uniformly withstood the temptation of reducing the object of their faith and devotion to a level with the senses and imagination of man. 'I believe in One God and Mahomet the Apostle of God', is the simple and invariable profession of Islam. The intellectual image of the Deity has never been degraded by any visible idol; the honors of the prophet have never transgressed the measure of human virtue, and his living precepts have restrained the gratitude of his disciples within the bounds of reason and religion."


6. Rev. Bosworth Smith, Mohammed and Mohammadanism, London 1874, p. 92

"He was Caesar and Pope in one; but he was Pope without Pope's pretensions, Caesar without the legions of Caesar: without a standing army, without a bodyguard, without a palace, without a fixed revenue; if ever any man had the right to say that he ruled by the right divine, it was Mohammed, for he had all the power without its instruments and without its supports."


7. Annie Besant, The Life and Teachings of Muhammad, Madras 1932, p. 4

"It is impossible for anyone who studies the life and character of the great Prophet of Arabia, who knows how he taught and how he lived, to feel anything but reverence for that mighty Prophet, one of the great messengers of the Supreme. And although in what I put to you I shall say many things which may be familiar to many, yet I myself feel whenever I re-read them, a new way of admiration, a new sense of reverence for that mighty Arabian teacher."


8. Montgomery Watt, Mohammad at Mecca, Oxford 1953, p. 52

"His readiness to undergo persecutions for his beliefs, the high moral character of the men who believed in him and looked up to him as leader, and the greatness of his ultimate achievement – all argue his fundamental integrity. To suppose Muhammad an impostor raises more problems than it solves. Moreover, none of the great figures of history is so poorly appreciated in the West as Muhammad."


9. James A. Michener, 'Islam: The Misunderstood Religion' in Reader's Digest (American Edition), May 1955, pp. 68-70

"Muhammad, the inspired man who founded Islam, was born about A.D. 570 into an Arabian tribe that worshipped idols. Orphaned at birth, he was always particularly solicitous of the poor and needy, the widow and the orphan, the slave and the downtrodden. At twenty he was already a successful businessman, and soon became director of camel caravans for a wealthy widow. When he reached twenty-five, his employer, recognizing his merit, proposed marriage. Even though she was fifteen years older, he married her, and as long as she lived, remained a devoted husband.

"Like almost every major prophet before him, Muhammad fought shy of serving as the transmitter of God's word, sensing his own inadequacy. But the angel commanded 'Read'. So far as we know, Muhammad was unable to read or write, but he began to dictate those inspired words which would soon revolutionize a large segment of the earth: "There is one God."

"In all things Muhammad was profoundly practical. When his beloved son Ibrahim died, an eclipse occurred, and rumors of God's personal condolence quickly arose. Whereupon Muhammad is said to have announced, 'An eclipse is a phenomenon of nature. It is foolish to attribute such things to the death or birth of a human-being.'"

"At Muhammad's own death an attempt was made to deify him, but the man who was to become his administrative successor killed the hysteria with one of the noblest speeches in religious history: 'If there are any among you who worshipped Muhammad, he is dead. But if it is God you worshipped, He lives forever.'"


10. Michael H. Hart, The 100: A Ranking of the Most Influential Persons in History, New York: Hart Publishing Company, Inc. 1978, p. 33

"My choice of Muhammad to lead the list of the world's most influential persons may surprise some readers and may be questioned by others, but he was the only man in history who was supremely successful on both the religious and secular level."

"...It is probable that the relative influence of Muhammad on Islam has been larger than the combined influence of Jesus Christ and St. Paul on Christianity. ...It is this unparalleled combination of secular and religious influence which I feel entitles Muhammad to be considered the most influential single figure in human history."


11. Sarojini Naidu, the famous Indian poetess says – S. Naidu, Ideals of Islam, Speeches and Writings, Madaras, 1918

“It was the first religion that preached and practiced democracy; for, in the mosque, when the call for prayer is sounded and worshippers are gathered together, the democracy of Islam is embodied five times a day when the peasant and king kneel side by side and proclaim: 'God Alone is Great'... “


12. Thomas Caryle – Heros and Heros Worship

“…The lies (Western slander) which well-meaning zeal has heaped round this man (Muhammed) are disgraceful to ourselves only…How one man single-handedly, could weld warring tribes and wandering Bedouins into a most powerful and civilized nation in less than two decades….A silent great soul, one of that who cannot but be earnest. He was to kindle the world; the world’s Maker had ordered so."


13. Stanley Lane-Poole – Table Talk of the Prophet

“He was the most faithful protector of those he protected, the sweetest and most agreeable in conversation. Those who saw him were suddenly filled with reverence; those who came near him loved him; they who described him would say, "I have never seen his like either before or after." He was of great taciturnity, but when he spoke it was with emphasis and deliberation, and no one could forget what he said...”


14. Dr. William Draper, "A History of the Intellectual Development of Europe"

"Four years after the death of Justinian, A.D. 569, was born in Mecca, in Arabia, the man who, of all men, has exercised the greatest influence upon the human race... To be the religious head of many empires, to guide the daily life of one-third of the human race, may perhaps justify the title of a Messenger of God."


15. Leo Tolstoy - The Rule of Prophet Mohammed

“Muhammad has always been standing higher than the Christianity. He does not consider god as a human being and never makes himself equal to God. Muslims worship nothing except God and Muhammad is his Messenger. There is no any mystery and secret in it.”


16. K. S. Ramakrishna Rao - 'Mohammed: The Prophet of Islam,' 1989

"Today after a lapse of fourteen centuries, the life and teachings of Muhammad have survived without the slightest loss, alteration or interpolation. They offer the same undying hope for treating mankind’s many ills, which they did when he was alive. This is not a claim of Muhammad’s followers but also the inescapable conclusion forced upon by a critical and unbiased history."

"The personality of Muhammad is most difficult to get the whole truth of it. Only a glimpse of him I can catch. What dramatic succession of picturesque scenes? There is Muhammad the Prophet; there is Muhammad the General; Muhammad the King; Muhammad the Warrior; Muhammad the Businessman; Muhammad the Preacher; Muhammad the Philosopher; Muhammad the Statesman; Muhammad the Orator; Muhammad the Reformer; Muhammad the Refuge of Orphans; Muhammad the Protector of Slaves; Muhammad the Emancipator of Women; Muhammad the Judge; Muhammad the Saint... In all these magnificent roles and in all these departments of human activities he is equally a hero."




@BabyShark

These historians and famous personalities whom I quoted above have no ulterior motive for making those statements about Muhammad, unlike David Wood who is following his own anti-Islamic propaganda.  So, the choice is yours... would you rather listen to David Wood or the testimonies of these unbiased authors?


I'll end this post by quoting a beautiful verse from the Bible that shows you how to treat your wife with respect:

If two men are fighting and the wife of one of the men comes to save her husband's life, YOU SHOULD CUT OFF HER HAND.

"When men strive together one with another, and the wife of the one draweth near for to deliver her husband out of the hand of him that smiteth him, and putteth forth her hand, and taketh him by the secrets: Then thou shalt cut off her hand, thine eye shall not pity her." [Deuteronomy 25:11-12]

So, every Christian man who loves his wife should cut off her wife's hand when she comes to her rescue.  And this is how the "Loving God" of the Bible teaches you to show love and respect to your wife.

I rest my case.

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