Warcraft II Forum

Warcraft II => Server.War2.ru => Topic started by: Cel on November 01, 2018, 03:07:02 PM

Title: Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance!
Post by: Cel on November 01, 2018, 03:07:02 PM
We all know the game has some areas where balance is not perfect and some people have offered to make changes to balances things up in the past.
Here is a way I would look at it:

The real thing to keep in mind when looking at this issue is that most of us do play the game mostly out of nostalgia.
So if changes are to be made they have to be so minor that they wont change the way we play the game and the way the game feels/behaves overall we do not want to play another game we want to play warcraft 2 with all its mechanics and logic.

Ideally any change made would only make the game feel a bit better and make it more interesting to play without changing anything to its core mechanics and the way we play it.
In such a way that players coming back to the game wont really be noticing them too much, we are basically talking small tweaks in numbers nothing more.

Here are changes I would suggest if we were to make any update to the game's balance:

Lust:
Lust has to be powerful it has to allow players to tare appart builings and all that jazz the only problem I see with lust is that it is so cheap players do not have to think about when to use it.
Players can afford always re-lusting everything without thinking twice.
I would thus propose to change the cost of lust from 50 to something around 100 mana making it a little more strategical to think about when to use the spell without reducing its effectiveness when it is.

Heal:
Heal costs 6 mana per hit points healed a paladin has 90 hit points it means a full mana paladin cannot heal another paladin up as it will only heal 40 hp (edited).
the cost makes it not worth it to even use the heal in combat or even else.
I would reduce it making it twice as cheap like 2 or even 1 so that it will most of the time heal up the unit you are using the spell on.

Berzerker troll regeneration:
the thing is so slow the troll will die of old age before it get healed 9 hp. Archers on the other hand get a nice flat +3 damage I would up trolls regen a bit like twice what it is.

Firebolt:
Coil is amazing firebolt not so much I would maybe lower its cost a bunch to make it more interesting to use it to for example taking down towers and other small objectives quickly without spending a full  blizzard.
Or we could increase its damage by a lot so make sure that if you hit your target it was worth it.

Skeletons:
They suck and they are expenssive I would lower their cost a bunch and make them use upgrades or make them a bit tougher but they still have to loose to a grunt 1v1 they are the units you want to make when resources are about to be mia on the map

Unholy armor:
A very powerfull spell to make dk bombs and other fancy moves but it is very expensive overall still and could be a bit cheaper from 200 to something around 150 100.

Flames shield:
A fun spell when used wisely I would however lower the cost of flames shield from 80 to something around 50 to make it more possible/worth doing invisibility/flameshield combos.
Also it has a short range making it castable at a less close distance could help making it usable.
Also making it last longer or enable casting it on air units could help making it more useful.

Polymorph:
A very powerful spell against other casters but it does cost a lot I would lower it from 200 to around 100.

These are suggestions that I feel would not change the game's logic and the way people play it but will encourage more interesting plays and thinking behind player actions.
Feel free to add your own thoughts on this and suggestions.

Tweaking numbers there and there as long as they do not de-nature the game is I guess acceptable in my opinion what do you feel about this matter?

Disclaimer: I am overall happy with the current state of the game and I am not saying we need to change anything. I am just saying that before changing anything we better make sure we have proper discussions about all of it so that we know what people are cool with and what not :P
Also it is a fun exercise to think of what small tweaks can change in the way the game is played even if it is to do nothing in the end.

 :peon:
Title: Re: Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance!
Post by: Thumb$ on November 01, 2018, 03:45:07 PM
THIS SETTINGS WILL MAKE THE GAMES LAST LONGER..IT WILL ALSO BRING THE GAME AT HIS FULL POTENTIAL, COULD BE ONE OF THE BEST IDEA EVER FOR WAR2
CURENTLY CANT LOG ON WAR2 YET BUSY WITH WORK SO ISNT REALLY MY RIGHT TO JUDGE YOUR IDEA BUT DO AS YOU PLEASE,PZ :) :D :P
Title: Re: Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance!
Post by: easycompany on November 01, 2018, 04:12:29 PM
youll need some reverser's..szwag seems to be one and ull need to understand some of that lamb stuff asmasmasm to understand the hex.

i wouldnt mess with the original...just more of a better custom.
Title: Re: Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance!
Post by: Cel on November 01, 2018, 05:13:35 PM
There is no doubt we know how to change these things the matter is more about whether we think these kind of changes are worth it and could be good for the game overall at all.
(for the game to be even more entertaining to watch and play)

Blizzard is not going to patch the game anymore.
Usually what Blizzard and other companies do to games they keep updating are having a balance team watching the game's competitive scene and overall performances and see what are the smallest amount of changes they can make to the original game that would improve its performances.

They do keep updating Starcraft from time to time with changes relative to balance and number tweaks nothing too crazy but basically all games that are kept alive receive some love from time to time and small tweaks to help the game reach its full potential.

Combat edition already vows to update the game so that it will keep running on our lastest os and machines.
It could also try and keep working on the game balance through small multiplayer updates. I'm not saying it should but it could.

The goal would be in that case to keep updating/balancing the game with the smallest possible changes that would be barely noticable from the original game to try and balance it a little more and have an overall improved experience without changing the game's logic/mechanic and feel.

To be honest I am fine with no changes happening at all but I think it is always fun to imagine what any of these small changes could do to the overall game.

 :peon:
Title: Re: Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance!
Post by: Szwagier on November 01, 2018, 06:01:27 PM
There is no time in game do play with trolls or flamestrike, if u got time to do that, that mean u won this game
They didnt change sc:bw, last time when they change game play was spawing pool 150->200 mins

IT was 10? Years ago
Title: Re: Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance!
Post by: Cel on November 01, 2018, 06:49:53 PM
They did change it for the remaster version of the game they changed the ladder map pool added some ramps to map editor as late as july the 24th.
But yeah you are right I could have picked a better example starcraft was updated for so long its balance is pretty much close to perfection now and every single unit and spells or upgrade from the roaster is played.

It is true that archers and trolls upgrades are barely played in warcraft 2 which is good in a sense we could tweak upgrades cost/effectiveness though I was thinking more about balancing the two races than balancing the tech tree overall.
On that part the game feels pretty good as it is already.
We could discuss how to balance the tech tree more, for example making sure that every single unit and tech has a real place in the game not necessarily in every game but has a good situational use. But this is going even further, we already have a pretty good tech tree as it is, changes to it would have to be extremely minor if any.

What do you mean by flamestrike? Firebolt or Flameshield?
Flameshield is barely used but if it cost 50 instead of 80 you could invis an oil tanker and give it flameshield with just one mage.
Also using it on packs of units could be worth it as it would cost 2 blizzard cast and not 3+ worth of mana.

These are overall propositions to help balancing the game by changing simple and small things without changing the way the game works just buffing/nerfing things simply to see how it comes out. Overall it should barely change anything for good players just giving more options and opportunities.

Though as I said I do not really care if we end up changing things or not unless it is something we did not discuss.
I am happy with the current state of the game and am just curious about what you guys come up with and think of these possible small tweaks and what they could allow/change.

Anyone can have an opinion on this, it is just a nice hypothetical talk :-)

 :peon:
Title: Re: Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance!
Post by: Szwagier on November 02, 2018, 01:48:09 AM
Adding map but it doesnt change gameplay

And how it can work, there Must be patch, Before players join server
Title: Re: Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance!
Post by: Sepi on November 02, 2018, 11:05:53 AM
these threads stress me a lot. i really hope war2 doesnt get changed. (I did not read anything in the thread)
Title: Re: Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance!
Post by: Available on November 03, 2018, 10:43:09 AM
Hi, le Baguette :)

Quote
Lust:
Lust has to be powerful it has to allow players to tare appart builings and all that jazz the only problem I see with lust is that it is so cheap players do not have to think about when to use it.
Players can afford always re-lusting everything without thinking twice.
I would thus propose to change the cost of lust from 50 to at least 100 mana making it a little more strategical to think about when to use the spell without reducing its effectiveness when it is.
Agreed something around 85 to not screw up orc vs orc game, keep some variability.
if 100 or more then orc wars will stuck at boring "timing attacks"

Quote
Heal:
Heal costs 4 mana per hit points healed a paladin has 90 hit points it means a full mana paladin cannot heal another paladin up as it will only heal 62 hp.
the cost makes it not worth it to even use the heal in combat or even else.
I would reduce it making it twice as cheap like 2 or even 1 so that it will most of the time heal up the unit you are using the spell on.
4 per HP ? good healing then ;) btw 4 mana per HP is Exorcism cost
Heal costs 6 mana per HP and maxed out using 240 mana at once = 40 HP
even if paladin had extra mana (over 240) u must click again to spend it. (Exorcism doesn't have that limitations, using all possible mana)
But idk how will Heal behave (do same 40 HP or dry same 240 mana) if cost = 2/HP...

Quote
Firebolt:
Coil is amazing, firebolt not so much. I would maybe lower its cost a bunch to make it more interesting to use it
Huh, Fireball?  Isn't it?
Suggest 85 then, triple with full mana. and ready to use right from birth. A bit more fair against Coil - easy to miss, mostly not killing from 1 cast...

Quote
Unholy armor:
A very powerfull spell to make dk bombs and other fancy moves but it is very expensive overall still and could be a bit cheaper from 200 to something around 150 100.
Really? This costs 100 mana in original and good as it is. But here already 2 votes to decrease, hehe.

Quote
Polymorph:
A very powerful spell against other casters but it does cost a lot I would lower it from 200 to around 150.
Оh no pls, enough "click-click" stuffs in war2 already.

Quote
Flame shield:
A fun spell when used wisely I would however lower the cost of flames shield from 80 to something around 50
Some cases dropping that on enemy ogres crowd may worth it, but mostly blizz more easy and effective for 25 mana minimal.
But anyway 50 looks too good.
Much better to set minimal research cost for this, for exaple 500gold + same time cost as slow/haste (then do same for orcs 'raise dead'),
when that so easily accessible, player may consider use it rather or think for yourself what is better for current in game situation.

Title: Re: Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance!
Post by: Cel on November 03, 2018, 04:20:27 PM
Yup Available I mixed exhorcism and heal up for their costs but you got the idea heal is not even worth it out of fight.
Good point though we would really want to have it drain all the available mana. And yeah exhorcism could use a slight buff too as it is very situational.

Lust mana cost really makes it easy for players to just not think about when to do it but yeah maybe we could try a more subtle change first ^^.


Though these are all hypothetical changes :P
Title: Re: Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance!
Post by: eleison on November 04, 2018, 04:07:45 PM
Best way to balance game would be to give knights a consistent speed upgrade instead of healing. Make bloodlust some sec lower in duration and lower invis duration. Invis would be op if lust is nerfed. This way knights can run away from lusted ogres, and game will be much more even.
Title: Re: Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance!
Post by: Cel on November 04, 2018, 06:45:00 PM
I have only one big issue with the solution you are proposing eleison it is that it changes the game mechanics and units/spells logic wise.
I kinda don't want people to think they are watching a different game when they see the game on our streams.

I believe we can try balancing what we have instead of changing the spirit / logic of the game altogether. Paladins loosing heal and having a haste instead would definitely not look/feel like warcraft 2 anymore for me and all the nostalgia driven players out there.

Lets talk about what we see is the real issue here before we jump into solutions here is how I see the picture:

The way I see it the real problem for the in game balance as it is right now is Lust being a total no-brainer.

Lust is so powerful and cheap that most players do not think about whether they should get it or not anymore, they will rush for it, even if sometimes they would have been able to win faster by just by massing grunts and making one or two sappers.
Think about it, have you tried to play a game that goes into late game where every player are forbidden to use lust? Was it horribly bad? Or did you have suddenly more options in your tech tree, more things to think of and micro manage? Was it not fun at all?
I believe because it is so cheap lust overshadows everything else the tech tree has to offer which could also be used and played with and it makes the game more straight forward than it could be.

At the same time I do not want to make lust weaker either.
Because it wouldn't be warcraft 2 anymore if you could not break a defense with a nicely timed lusted ogers attack or if Axe throwers lusted didn't rip appart drakes, or lusted dragons able to kill dks etc...

I believe if lust did cost more mana we would have the same game we all love, it would just make playing orcs require a bit more planning and thinking than just getting lust as soon as possible and constantly re-lusting a wrecking ball patch of ogers there and there.

Making lust cost more mana could make it an amazing situational skill instead of a constant no-brainer and would open the path for more of the tech tree to be used in regular games like runes, sappers and other super nice things we only get to see when one or two very good player manages to sneak these strategies in on a perfect timing.

Don't get me wrong though lust is a great spell, Warcraft 2 without lust at all would be unthinkable, it adds something to the game and really is kinda iconic but strong as it is right now it also strips a large part of the game away too.

Yes orc players would have to take into account that their army is not always 100% ready to fight just like their enemies, if you think about it humans have already to deal with this to time their attacks to try and avoid lust or catch unlusted ogies or lure them away from the action if anything, this is more thrilling and requires more thinking/planning which is the way I see it very good for the game.

Now about invisibility and mages/dks overall:
Though I am not excluding it could be something to think about I personally believe Invisibility is fine as it is, especially counting that DKs have haste for drakes and also coil that heals them and unholy armor all of these are very good spells too.
Invisibility is definitely a good late game skill but it is not like dks don't have their own arsenal I am pretty sure a lot of players still rather play a dk than a mage I believe the two are pretty balanced as it is.

As a matter of fact  in the list I gave the only real changes I would like to try myself are: lust mana cost increase and heal mana cost decrease and boundary removed to be honest I think that would be a good start ^^.
Title: Re: Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance!
Post by: Zelya on November 05, 2018, 05:52:42 AM
Do you still need mana cost address?

This is for US version (starting from 004A1C3C). Please see the image in attachment.
Title: Re: Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance!
Post by: woofy on November 05, 2018, 02:38:19 PM
The only thing that needs to be changed is lust-mana regeneration, it should definitely be slower. 
Title: Re: Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance!
Post by: Lambchops on November 06, 2018, 04:51:27 AM
With the exception of lust, humans are way OP already.

Humans are >= orcs in almost everything else. It's just that lust is so massively OP that it cancels out all the rest.

Cases can be made for all sorts of tweaks, I would just like to see an increase in lust MP cost (maybe double?), and a BIG decrease in invis duration.

The nature of invis can totally affect the way some maps are played, and 99% of the time it's just a dirty trick sneak rape attack spell. Invis should be absolute maximum 10 seconds, probably better about 6-8 seconds.
Title: Re: Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance!
Post by: Lambchops on November 06, 2018, 07:29:07 AM
Best way to balance game would be to give knights a consistent speed upgrade instead of healing.

Actually I think giving knights haste instead of heal could be very interesting.
Do hasted knights beat lusted ogres?



Invis would be op if lust is nerfed.

Agree


Title: Re: Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance!
Post by: Cel on November 06, 2018, 10:34:39 AM
Yes we could change invisibility cost/effectiveness though even if invisibility is strong I think most of the other spells are in favor of dks.
Haste > Slow (buffing is easier than de-buffing)
Coil > Fireball
Unholy armor > FlameShield (Dk bombs are pretty devastating)
The only spell that dk have that sucks is Skeletons and yeah it could use a slight buff and I mentioned but I wouldn't want to change any of these first
Invis is strong and can change the outcome of a game it is true, but it is not like we never see hasted dks able to do a similar job or even better in some occasions.

I am not saying nerfing haste or  invisibility is out of the question though, the way I see it, it is a minor balance issue compared to lust / heal.

I think even with a double mana cost increase on lust, ogre mages will still be way better than paladins lust still will be > to heal because of the ease of use, runes also will be > to exorcism which is fine I think because it wont be that much better, humans do not have to play exactly the same and have the same strength/weaknesses than orc for the game to be balanced.

I would advocate we just try lust / heal changes and see where we have to go from there as I said the more subtle the changes the better we are off when is comes to these things really.
Small steps to make the game even closer to perfection than it is without denaturing it.

Right now as it is we barely ever see a church built for humans if you remove the altar of storm and the church from the available buildings which is very much doable in a custom map it is not like the unbalances are crazy between the two races it is in fact very minimal and I would even argue some player will still prefer running the orcs in that situation.

All the other changes I suggested that are not heal/lust are examples of things we could do from there in the future, but if we are to balance things one day I would advocate doing that using very small steps to  try and change the minimum we can at every step of the way  :peon:.

 :critter:
Title: Re: Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance!
Post by: Lambchops on November 06, 2018, 09:48:48 PM
Fireball is effectively an AOE spell if microed correctly and has the biggest range of any attack in the game.

The only reason Fireball is not used a lot more and a game-changer is because blizzard is so massively OP so why would you use your mp on fireball?

The only thing coil is better for is attacking fliers above you gold without hitting your peons.
This is usefull, but not > fireball, no way.

blizz >>>>> d&d

Unholy armor is a good buff but in reality hardly ever used.

Runes can be effective but is very costly.

Haste is a strong spell ... would be very interesting to give it to paladins.
Title: Re: Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance!
Post by: Winchester on November 07, 2018, 08:29:47 AM
Runes can be effective but is very costly.

Its only 1000 gold and you get the money back from it essentially within the first cast if you use it on the enemys gold line at a walled in base as a mini death and decay,  . And it can even be used to damage ships on watermaps, juggernauts/battleships are real easy to hit with runes due to how slow they are (not that sending a dragon or dnd/bllizzard isnt better, but its handy to know you can sink ships with ogres if the need arises)  Exorcism is way more costly @ 2000 gold and has less potential use. I use it to snipe incoming dks i can't kill in time with basic attacks only before it launches death and decay, or to kill walled in death knights that I spot using holy vision on the paladins that don't have full mana for the 1shot kill.

Runes is also one of the ways to counter invisibility if played correctly.

and while i love blizzard against a group of ogres, dnd does have its spots where its more better.  It is stronger against 2x2 and 4x4 buildings. So it's greater at blowing up towers then blizzard is with less mana required. 

That said, it feels great blowing up an orcs altar of storms with blizzard when ogre mage upgrade is 90% done and they used 6 peons to repair the altar.  :D
Title: Re: Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance!
Post by: Cel on November 07, 2018, 09:32:24 AM
Yup as I said the mage spells superiority to dks are very debatable, you forgot to mention the most essential advantage of coil it gives your dk a whole bunch of life back you can effectively one or two shot enemy mages / ogres with it while healing yourself that is why it is used so often in desperate situations.
Just like you said fireball is not cost effective coil is very much cost effective and useful also it cant be dodged.
Blizzard is better against odd number of tiles enemies 1x1 3x3 and d&d better against even 2x2 4x4 you can rip apart a hall or a bunch of farms/towers with d&d and it still is better than blizzard because of haste even against units really.

Haste on paladins would maybe work yes but that is not the point giving them lust and runes also would work if we are going that road but then if we want to make it all even we would have to copy all spells over from orcs to humans, it would dramatically change the way humans play and the game logic too I think we can achieve balance without denaturing the game or changing its original design. We are talking small tweaks in numbers not complete redesign/rework of the races/tree.

That is why I made this thread because I saw some discussions about this, if we are to try and help the balance of the game it has to be through baby steps, and a majority of our players have to agree that it is the way to go.
A big part of our player base are here for the nostalgia, heal is a very human iconic spell and so is lust we don't want to replace them rather slightly improve the balance around them in a way that is acceptable by all.

 :critter:
Title: Re: Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance!
Post by: Lambchops on November 09, 2018, 05:21:01 AM
Runes can be effective but is very costly.
Its only 1000 gold and you get the money back from it essentially ...

If that isn't a troll you're mentally deficiant


advantage of coil it gives your dk a whole bunch of life back

dks have 60 hp and 0 armor.

The difference between fully healed dk and a 1hp dk is very little. If an ogre catches it, it's still dead. I seriously doubt that the healing effect of coil has changed the outcome of very many games ever. That would be very unusual.

Blizzard is better against odd number of tiles enemies 1x1 3x3 and d&d better against even 2x2 4x4

I'm a bit sceptical about that. Multicast blizz owns d&d in my experience, although I have never done a test against farms. I've certainly never had any trouble smashing forts with it ...

-- edit --

its handy to know you can sink ships with ogres if the need arises

Good point never actually done that, but I dont play much water.

Title: Re: Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance!
Post by: easycompany on November 09, 2018, 07:26:13 AM
i  think** winchester was thinking about rune cost not mana cost :P...im glad its 200 be a spam fest if it was lower..
Title: Re: Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance!
Post by: Cel on November 09, 2018, 11:34:01 AM
About blizzard and d&d :

Knowing that difference will matter if you are playing humans a lot. If you are going to use your blizzard against farms you will need multiple mages because otherwise farms wont die it is very ineffective to use blizzard against farms as a human this is just not a viable strategy really.

One blizzard will leave farms alive where one d&d will kill them all that is the thing, often late game you will see dks come and rip apart patches of farms, this can completely cripple a late game economy 1 mage can simply not do that it is not an option.
If there is a difference to be seen between the two spells it is on farms that you will see it the most. Units will die fairly quickly to both d&d and blizzard but farms will not die under 1 blizzard.

Multicast blizzard does not own multicast d&d in my experience they both annihilate pretty much anything, but arguably hasted d&d owns both because you have close to the same effect and it is much cheaper to achieve.
Blizzard will be able to kill ogres a little faster yes but both spells will kill an ogre when multicast comes into play, both races can multicast it is not just a human thing.

Again not saying blizzard is < to d&d more that these two spells are pretty balanced as it is things do not have to be exactly equal to be balanced.

About Coil :

Saying a full life dk is the same as a 1hp dk is just not true, not every unit in the game will one shot a full life dk as a matter of fact dks can even take several hits from non lusted ogres before they die coil just allow you kill and sometime even survive a situation that d&d wouldn't. On a water map this is the difference between loosing your one dk defending a spot and keeping it fresh for the next attack that will happen maybe long after when the dk will have recovered all its mana back.
When facing another dk if one casts d&d and the other coil the coil guy will survive d&d and kill the enemy dk because of that life back otherwise it would be a draw.

All the tier one players know how to use and abuse it, coil is a very effective and useful spell and it is used a lot before and after d&d is researched, and it not as unusual as you would think that coil changes the day, especially if you look at water maps where the late game really involves casters more.

Now if you look at fireball as a comparison it is barely ever used before blizzard is researched unless its a life or death situation and certainly not after unless it is a troll the spell is barely ever used at all it is just a bad spell.
As a matter of fact it would be like if dks had Skeletons as their first spell instead of coil and had to pay/research coil in place of skeletons except even skeletons would be arguably better and more used than fireball is  ;D.
Title: Re: Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance!
Post by: easycompany on November 09, 2018, 10:48:52 PM
i dont think lust matters alot on sea. which yall all forgetting of invis another op spell.
Title: Re: Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance!
Post by: Winchester on November 10, 2018, 03:52:31 AM
If that isn't a troll you're mentally deficiant

I understand a noob like you takes forever to get 1000 gold. It's ok. people like you tend to be Deficient with your peon count by the time you actually survive to fortress and build an altar of storms. I'm sure any half decent player on this server could beat you with Runes or flame shield only. But don't worry, keep trying. You'll get there soon mr sensationalized meme.

deficient
/dɪˈfɪʃ(ə)nt/
adjective
1.
not having enough of a specified quality or ingredient.
Title: Re: Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance!
Post by: Szwagier on November 10, 2018, 04:24:02 AM
Invis is only op in sea maps, haste>invis cause dk with haste can easly kill 9 ogres while if  mage will die insta after using 50-100 mana(depend how near he is to ogres)

human got sea
orc got land
game is balanced
EOT
Title: Re: Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance!
Post by: Sepi on November 10, 2018, 11:12:42 AM
Invis is only op in sea maps, haste>invis cause dk with haste can easly kill 9 ogres while if  mage will die insta after using 50-100 mana(depend how near he is to ogres)

human got sea
orc got land
game is balanced
EOT
Title: Re: Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance!
Post by: Cel on November 10, 2018, 11:35:12 AM
Yes if not for lust and heal the game is pretty balanced as it is.
As u8 says in water maps where you cant rely only on big patches of lusted ogres humans tend to survive a bit better/longer but as the game is right now I would still give the advantage to the orcs to be honest.
From what I see when I watch T1 players playing HSC:
Lust + haste on dragons will 99% of the time give water control to the orc player especially if there is water not reachable by mages.
D&d being better for destroying farms / oil platforms it gives good opportunities to cripple the enemy player.
If we look at good players playing HSC the resources they lack the most is often not gold or lumber it is oil and food space when the game goes late, so having d&d and haste here is a big bonus.
It is true there is no stopping an invisible transport but you cant really stop a hasted transport either yes you can see it coming and prepare for it but if there is a hasted dk in it the potential damages are much higher.
So yeah overall the only changes I would really go for at first would be lust/heal mana cost changes and see from there (also making heal cast like exo).
 ^-^
Title: Re: Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance!
Post by: easycompany on November 10, 2018, 08:23:29 PM
exo heal will be badass!! but really has anyone really tried the other spells to make a strat with them...mainly slow/flameshield
Title: Re: Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance!
Post by: Lambchops on November 11, 2018, 02:45:49 AM
If that isn't a troll you're mentally deficiant

I understand a noob like you takes forever to get 1000 gold. It's ok. people like you tend to be Deficient with your peon count by the time you actually survive to fortress and build an altar of storms. I'm sure any half decent player on this server could beat you with Runes or flame shield only. But don't worry, keep trying. You'll get there soon mr sensationalized meme.

deficient
/dɪˈfɪʃ(ə)nt/
adjective
1.
not having enough of a specified quality or ingredient.



@Winchester
Costly in MP not gold, as is the context of this entire thread DUH



[  ] Yes to Lust mana cost increase
[  ] Yes to Heal mana cost decrease 
[  ] Yes to Troll regen increase
[  ] Yes to Skeletons cost decrease
[  ] Yes to Unholy armor cost decrease
[  ] Yes to Firebolt cost decrease
[  ] Yes to Flameshield cost decrease

 .... / ....

Unholy armor:
A very powerfull spell to make dk bombs and other fancy moves but it is very expensive overall still and could be a bit cheaper from 200 to something around 150 100.

Flames shield:
A fun spell when used wisely I would however lower the cost of flames shield from 80 to something around 50 to make it more possible/worth doing invisibility/flameshield combos


I was giving you the benefit of the doubt by suggesting you were trolling, but instead you doubled down .... lol you mental midget ;D


Just guessing, but are you perhaps one of those people that spends more time talking than listening?


Title: Re: Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance!
Post by: Winchester on November 11, 2018, 05:43:59 AM
Costly in MP not gold, as is the context of this entire thread DUH

Still don't see how runes is costly to a guy who never never lusts his ogres and has full mana on most of his ogres? As I said, you're easily flame shield only levels of bad
Title: Re: Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance!
Post by: Sepi on November 11, 2018, 06:22:04 AM
D&d being better for destroying farms / oil platforms it gives good opportunities to cripple the enemy player.


this is a myth which has been empirically proven to not be true by Nedro. Death and Decay and blizzard both do the same damage to every type of building (2x2, 3x3 and 4x4 buildings). This is a myth put forward by the old occult site war2.warcraft.org/strategy (no longer accessible).

If you look at the battle.net site of warcraft 2 strategy, where they discuss blizzard and death and decay, there are no such myths being put forward. The myth being that D&D does more damage to 2x2 and 4x4 buildings and blizzard does more damage to 3x3 buildings. It is not true at all.

http://classic.battle.net/war2/advanced/bdnd.shtml (http://classic.battle.net/war2/advanced/bdnd.shtml)

It is true there is no stopping an invisible transport but you cant really stop a hasted transport either yes you can see it coming and prepare for it but if there is a hasted dk in it the potential damages are much higher.


Haste does not affect a transport. If u haste a transport and u have another transport next to it without haste, they both go the same speed (I just empirically tested this in single player).
Title: Re: Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance!
Post by: Cel on November 11, 2018, 08:36:06 AM
For blizzard a d&d it just seems that when farms are isolated d&d does seem to get them more accurately empirically the difference is super small so it is for units that is what I mean by there is no need to balance blizzard and d&d they are fine.
Now it could be completely wrong and it does not really matter as my point is we don't need to balance what already is fairly balanced.

Transports are max speed there is no stopping them anyways point being you can load a hasted dk in a transport move it to the enemy island and cast d&d as soon as it goes out it cant be stopped. Haste > slow because buffing a unit before a fight is just easier than when its an enemy moving or running at your face. Also haste can be used in multiple ways for speeding up economy (on peons/oil tankers) or allow sappers to run into towers while not getting shot twice etc...

Coil may one shot a mage and most of the time it will leave him very very low life while healing your dk, you need 3 to 4 direct hits with fireballs to kill an enemy mage or dk not even talking about the fact that they are pretty easy to dodge running sideways and it does not heal your mage a bit, there is a reason one spell is used and the other is not. Players are not stupid if fireball was any good it would be used just like skeletons if they did do damage they would be used.

Ideally balance changes would make every units and spell of the tech trees interesting to get and use depending on the situation it is not just about balancing humans vs orcs.

Lust is too strong because it makes trying to do anything else than getting it not worth.
It becomes a no-brainer to get it where it could be a strategical choice to get it over say dks or getting sappers or else earlier in the game. Altar of storm is the number 1 building people go for after reaching fort now if you look at heal/exorcism it is so bad that Chuch is barely ever even built it is not worth spending money on we are talking a building that is even less worth to get than the refinery here.

Lust gives such a power spike that often people will repair the altar with 3 4 peons just to get it like 1 min before the opponent because if you get it that little bit sooner you may win it is such a game changer / breaker.

Plus you don't have to plan when to use it you just re-lust all the time because it is that cheap, this is where balance could really help having more options, allowing counter plays and more of the tech tree to be explored and used effectively in games.

It is not like the game is poor and lacks options or depth when lust is disabled, the game is pretty amazing and balanced otherwise lust just overshadows a lot of its potential.

I have seen games were Braviet played with runes and zeppelins against lust. Man did he won the fights but it is so expensive to keep up in terms of micro management that he got out macro easily. Because the enemy would just mass produce lust and send without looking while Braviet had to always pay attention and plan where and when to put runes out on the map to cripple the lusted enemy army before it arrives if lust was that tiny little more expensive Braviet would have won this game. And I feel he would have deserved it because that strategy could be very worth. It requires far more thinking/planning and execution skills than just rushing lust and sending ogies accross the map.

It if fun to watch and commentate different strategies I would love for these kind of things to happen more often.
Again not saying lust needs to be removed just saying I love lust but I would also love it to be a strategical choice more than a no-brainer.
 ;)
Title: Re: Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance!
Post by: Sepi on November 11, 2018, 09:55:08 AM
For blizzard a d&d it just seems that when farms are isolated d&d does seem to get them more accurately empirically the difference is super small so it is for units that is what I mean by there is no need to balance blizzard and d&d they are fine.

retarded.
Title: Re: Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance!
Post by: Cel on November 11, 2018, 12:12:30 PM
retarded.


CRITICAL THINKING - Fallacies: Ad Hominem [HD] - YouTube (http://youtu.be/qBkj-AYYg7w#)

:thumbsup:
Title: Re: Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance!
Post by: Sepi on November 11, 2018, 01:50:54 PM
retarded.


CRITICAL THINKING - Fallacies: Ad Hominem [HD] - YouTube ([url]http://youtu.be/qBkj-AYYg7w#[/url])

:thumbsup:


ure building ur argument on a swamp of retardness. i suppose ure going to triple down on being retarded after this.
Title: Re: Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance!
Post by: Cel on November 11, 2018, 03:06:32 PM
I could be wrong my argumentation could have flaws and / or  maybe you could have missed my point. I will go for the later in that case.

Before you make yourself look like a fool make sure you understand what you are reacting to before actually reacting to it.

Here is the point I think you missed:

I already said that whether the blizzard / d&d thing was a myth or not both ways support my point. My point being blizzard is not better than d&d as I was answering someone saying blizzard was better than d&d.
Well according to that source it is not more than according to you, as you said literally these are exactly the same spells, so my point still stands tyvm.

Which seems to be what you wanted to say that both blizzard and d&d are perfectly balanced so you are basically insulting me for defending exactly the same idea as you.
 :thumbsup:

In any case,
You attacking my person is not really going anywhere and as such you are welcome to shut your mouth or find something to say that actually may be more interesting to read than series of pointless insults, because I will ignore these plain and simple.

There is nothing stupid about stating facts or opinions even when they are wrong or flawed every civilized person can be wrong on any matter once in a while.

Monkeys yell at each other and punch each others when they disagree, I do not hate monkeys I just don't waste my time arguing or talking with them though.
 :peon:
Title: Re: Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance!
Post by: Sepi on November 11, 2018, 04:20:34 PM
*yawn* next ure going to quadruple down on being retarded. you have doubled down 10 times in the past so lets see how deep in infinite regression we go this time.
Title: Re: Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance!
Post by: easycompany on November 11, 2018, 08:12:49 PM
gd dudes get to hacking war2! i wanna see some productivity
Title: Re: Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance!
Post by: Lambchops on November 11, 2018, 09:00:44 PM
I did a few tests, just out of interest. Didn't run it enough times to be statistical proof, but the appearance I saw was something like:

Both blizz and d&d do repeating amounts of random damage over an area. Blizz does more damage per 'hit' but d&d hits more times.

In this way the damage from d&d will tend to be more regular ... it will be spread out the damage more evenly over the area, so seems to have a slightly higher rate of completely destroying smaller/low-HP targets, but in every test I did, Blizz dealt more total damage to the area.

The difference was less than what I thought it was before doing this test. The 2 spells seem slightly different, but pretty well balanced.


-- edit --

This was only done on buildings....  BTW the myth/rumor I heard years ago was that blizz does more damage to buildings but d&d does more damage to mobile units, but idk how true that is.



Title: Re: Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance!
Post by: Sepi on November 11, 2018, 09:57:29 PM
Both blizz and d&d do repeating amounts of random damage over an area. Blizz does more damage per 'hit' but d&d hits more times.

This is not true. blizzard does 11 waves of iceshards, and death n decay does 11 waves of roses or whatever those are called.
Title: Re: Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance!
Post by: Sepi on November 11, 2018, 09:59:37 PM
BTW the myth/rumor I heard years ago was that blizz does more damage to buildings but d&d does more damage to mobile units, but idk how true that is.

blizzard and death and decay do same damage to buildings. blizzard does more damage to units.
Title: Re: Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance!
Post by: easycompany on November 11, 2018, 11:45:28 PM
mm im seeing  d&d does more dmg to units than buildings.

it depends on the angle u use the spell also
Title: Re: Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance!
Post by: Cel on November 12, 2018, 12:28:46 AM
Lets cut all that bullshit. Why don't we all try for ourselves?

I just made a simple map for testing that easily for yourself and also for myself because clearly people have theories on sensible differences between d&d and blizzard on units/buildings.

I ran this map (attached file) multiple times and tried for myself all I can say is on all my runs I haven't seen much difference at all if there is one maybe d&d did kill on average more farms than blizzard sometimes both spells will leave all farms alive on my runs most of the time d&d killed 1 or 2 farms but its probably just random.

I always stopped the cast after the same number of casts for both spells 5 for buildings 2 for units and I always casted the spell on the same tile relatively from the same relative position.

Now you say it is better for units? How much more damage are we talking about exactly because on my end it does not look very different.

Try it for yourself and if you do not trust my map make your own tests maybe I should record this on video pick the life of every unit and buildings to count exactly how much damage was done?

Launch it with default settings you will get both mages and dks and will be able to try both spells subsequently the way you want to, if there is such a big difference that really made blizzard better against units or whatever it should be very visible shouldn't it?

Otherwise we are talking very very minor differences that are not worth mentioning in the first place don't we?
Title: Re: Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance!
Post by: easycompany on November 12, 2018, 12:59:59 AM
well d&d is the better center cast spell , blizz looks like it needs to be top'd left some

im sure theres some kind a square 9x9 pattern and blizz almost always looks like it will middle down right before spreading ..were as d&d is spreading at the start

well why ya know better results this time around!

but i would still rather have teh d&d spread in a real war2 game..all those orcs are red and dead 1 more hit.

2 cast  stop and 2 cast again  ...what people could be seeing is a mage is to not click on a building but to cast top left of it...maybe

mage clearly wins on its cast in this pic :o of barraks, its just how your lined up and a building cast is gonna make it cast top lefted... so screwing the dk it looks like.

the mage pattern is more to the middle down right i see it now...is it a big thing no..a base hit id go with 2+ of each unit anyhow  :P

--and final conclusion = mage for barracks  / dks for farms most of the time and dks for units
Title: Re: Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance!
Post by: Sepi on November 12, 2018, 02:16:39 AM
Now you say it is better for units? How much more damage are we talking about exactly because on my end it does not look very different.

+125% according to Nedro. Meaning if D&D is 100% damage to units, then Blizzard does 225% damage to units.
Title: Re: Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance!
Post by: Sepi on November 12, 2018, 02:18:08 AM
didnt look at the posts of you guys but you calling it empirical testing doesnt make it empirical testing. just corruption of language and car salesman talk.
Title: Re: Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance!
Post by: Lambchops on November 12, 2018, 07:29:52 AM
Both blizz and d&d do repeating amounts of random damage over an area. Blizz does more damage per 'hit' but d&d hits more times.

This is not true. blizzard does 11 waves of iceshards, and death n decay does 11 waves of roses or whatever those are called.


Ok. Are you sure that's the damage and not just the graphics? IDK really that was just a guess based on observing the results.

Another possibility would be blizzard having a much larger random damage range...

something like:

d&d  =  50 - 100 damage ( average   75  )
blizz =   5  - 200 damage ( average 102.5)
( *not real numbers just an example* )

So blizz would still have higher damage overall, but d&d has more chance of evenly distributing it over the area.

Lets cut all that bullshit. Why don't we all try for ourselves?

I just made a simple map for testing ...


Yeah I did a similar thing, only i gave some of the buildings 10x the HP then multicast with 9 mages / dks
that way the effect is averaged out over 9 casts at once.

Also if you make the target units your own, then you can quantify the exact number of HP done.


Title: Re: Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance!
Post by: easycompany on November 12, 2018, 12:21:30 PM
great now we can work on a slow/flameshield vs lust  ...after all these years.
lust  was always just noob use.
Title: Re: Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance!
Post by: Cel on November 12, 2018, 12:46:50 PM
Ok so I ran this map I used only one cast of blizzard and one cast of d&d on 3x3 patch of farms subsequently targetted on the bottom right of the middle farm so that blizzard and d&d are nicely centered on the patch and all damages are contained.
Then I added up the damages dealt by that one cast on every farm touched:
Mages total damages for 1 blizzard cast on farms:
307, 221, 300, 256 = 271 on average
Dk total damages for 1 d&d cast on farms:
378, 381, 382, 373 = 378 average
So on average we have 39% more damage for d&d so far but hey that is just a start the more we do the more accurate we are right so I will continue also I encourage you to try it yourself.

Oh and yeah it seems damages are a bit better on units now so far too (for blizzard) but I need to give ogies more hp because they die and it means we need more hp to know exactly how much damages was done so I will do that I thus gave them 1000hp to make the calculation more precise and will redo my testing for units.

I wasn't able to tell the difference without adding up the numbers.
Also it seems blizzard damages on farms are more spread we have up to 7 farms that took damage for blizzard (numbers are very small but it varies around 20) where d&d tend to damage up to 4 farms consistently with bigger numbers minimum seen so far was 65 where the minimum for blizzard was 15 on that round of tests.

I encourage you to try it for yourself here is the last version of my testing map I use only the first row and second row's 4 first ogre patches for the testing so that all damages are contained.
Title: Re: Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance!
Post by: ~oE~ on November 12, 2018, 01:54:04 PM
If anything should be fixed its the tower bug. That shit is totally unfair.

Leave everything else alone...Nups be nups
Title: Re: Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance!
Post by: Cel on November 12, 2018, 06:47:15 PM
Tower bug exists because of the way the engine works on a 2x2 building the projectile and range is calculated from the top left tile and range are calculated from that tile, unfortunately this cannot really be fixed easily especially since we do not have the source code and this is not just changing a value there but the way it works :/

Though players have learned to play with it and it is not really breaking the balance between the races (both have same towers) nor is it breaking the balance of power between units in the tech tree too much, it does make rushing towers a bit more worth it in given situations.
But it is nothing compared to how much of a no-brainer lust is.

So yeah if there was an easy known way to fix this bug I guess people wouldn't be against it. :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance!
Post by: ~oE~ on November 12, 2018, 07:00:40 PM
Ya thats fair. Sucks it probably cannot be fixed. To me the point is that the damage values and cost of certain abilities (mostly human) that are largely irrelevant/unfair is still something that was intended and thus should remain in the game. The tower bug most definitely was not intended so it would be cool if it could be fixed.
Title: Re: Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance!
Post by: Cel on November 12, 2018, 08:58:20 PM
Well yes the balance is already close to perfection.
Perfect balance would be achieved when all spells and all units have a use in competitive play where all that amazing tech tree is worth getting and is effectively used in different situations.

You see, as the game is right now if you try playing with lust disabled you will notice that games can even become a bit more interesting and strategic as they do not reach that big power spike, we see more sappers more runes more dks and dragons many different options that are very much overshadowed by the power of lust otherwise.

Lust really is a fun spell and I would not want it to be weaker because it really was designed to be strong, but I would like it if it required a bit more brain power and planning for when to use it because  right now ogres can be always lusted up and it offers no room for counter-play and it is devastating a lusted army will always be lusted there is no stopping no down time no drawback.

And that is why I feel we could while keeping lust a very strong spell make it a little bit less of a no-brainer, so that we get a bit of all of these other strategies back and more windows of opportunities or counter-play for more exotic moves and hard to pull off strategies to pay off.

The balance of the game was barely ever touched the game is already pretty fairly balanced yes but there is room to improve it without de-naturing the game or changing any mechanics.

Think about it, every bit of the tech tree used that means instead of big patches or lusted ogies in every games we would have some lusted ogres yes but also room for some sappers, some runes, some humans, heal / exorcism / church even skeletons if we manage to give them a little bit of utility back.

This would be even more entertaining than it already is and amazing to commentate and watch and advertise.

I don't want to change any mechanics or way spells were designed to work because nostalgia is such a big part of that game, most people remember what heal could be used on and what it did they don't remember how bad it was though or how much it healed or cost, tweaking some numbers a bit to try and encourage more of the tree to be used could really be a nice thing.

People love to see these spells used, think about how excited we all are when we see skeletons,or flameshields or heals these spells are so cool and they bring back memories too.

Tricky moves being executed are exciting, we could have a little bit more of these without making lust useless or changing any unit mechanics or spells one bit.
Tweaking mana costs and improve the comfort of use of some spells there and there (heal working like ex for example) these kind of things.

We are talking changes that the average warcraft 2 viewer wont notice at first glance unless he pays close attention to the numbers.
Title: Re: Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance!
Post by: Winchester on November 12, 2018, 10:53:35 PM
I think Exorcism being able to hit Ogre Mages could be interesting. I get that it only effects undead units but Ogres equivalent is runes which can damage almost everything. Could maybe lower the damage on non undead units so it wouldn't become too overpowered on water maps. If not, maybe a gold reduction for the research since 2000 gold for exorcism is more of an investment that's harder to get back on then Runes seeing how it targets only certain units and not most like runes.
Title: Re: Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance!
Post by: Cel on November 13, 2018, 12:05:26 AM
Well gold,  research time, or mana cost reduction are things we can change without changing the design of the spell nor the logic behind it but changing what it does is not something I would want it really is not what the spell is supposed to do.

I think if we make it a little stronger and cheaper it is enough to make it a good spell against dks, situational yes, but most spells are.

Ogres certainly do not have a way to one shot mages at such a range I believe just tweaking numbers should be enough here.

Though I strongly believe if we make lust cost a lot more mana and heal a lot less it may already fix a lot of balance problems between orcs and humans and also within the orc tech tree.
 :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance!
Post by: Winchester on November 13, 2018, 05:16:24 AM
Ogres certainly do not have a way to one shot mages at such a range

placing runes on a typical path can kill even an invisible mage. And you can force the mages to take that path by continously walling off entry spots (s12 to 11 on gow for example, followed by the s12 to 9 spot, leaving only middle as the path to come from to reach 11, as you can put the farm at the top of s9 too )  Granted it's not a technical 1 shot kill, the odds of them stepping on another in a tight space is pretty high. It takes 2/5 of the runes to kill. so it can technically kill multiple mages in a single cast. And the odds of you microing a mage back after just stepping on nicely placed runes requires a very slow game speed.


Other then that your point on the Exorcism is fine, gold cost or mana cost reduction is fine. A mana cost reduction will allow you to 1 shot a death knight after spotting it with Holy Vision with the same paladin.
Title: Re: Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance!
Post by: Lambchops on November 13, 2018, 06:47:48 AM
After running a few more tests last night, I must admit its starting to look like d&d does more damage to gts than blizz, and blizz does more damage to rax than d&d. Maybe the 2x2 - 3x3 thing is true. Not what I expected, but thats what the results seem to say. Got to be scientific about it.

Any thoughts on the difference between multicast d&d/blizz targeting a building and targeting the ground?

Here's the thing:

If you multi-select 9 mages or dks then target a building with blizz/d&d they all cast in exactly the same spot - the AOE is a perfect square, but if you target the ground *usually* they all cast at slightly different spots so the total AOE is more spread out.

BUT (and I have no idea why) if you put your 9 mages (or dks) in a straight line, either vertical or horizontal then multi-select and cast at the ground, they will all cast at the same spot as if you targeted a building.

This works out the same using either of the 2 multi-cast methods. It's weird  ???


The difference in effect is quite marked.   Thoughts? ???

-- edit --

this even works if they are in a diagonal line, but as soon as they are clumped together then they start targeting a random spot.


Title: Re: Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance!
Post by: Cel on November 13, 2018, 01:52:33 PM
So I did some more testing and set the life of ogres and farms to 1000 to be able to make a full blizzard and full d&d without units dying at the first two casts thus getting a better average because more casts of blizzard within each tests.

So far the "myth" holds odd number of tiles = more damage from blizzard even = more damage from d&d
the bigger the units the smaller the difference though.

Ogres take more damage from blizzard than d&d though it is worth mentionning that neither survives being directly under 1 cast of d&d or blizzard but it does mean that a unit running through has more chances to survive if it is d&d than if it is blizzard so yeah go humans on that part.

On farms the damage difference is consistent as dks will often even kill a farm where mages will mostly get them in yellow and red on rare occasions (1000hp farms) this one did seem pretty obvious though when trying with the 400hp default life of farms that noticeably d&d killed more farms than blizzard on average also because blizzard damages were more spread. So on that part yeah go Orcs.

On barracks there is a slight advantage for blizzard it seems but it is smaller than the one d&d has on farms and much much smaller than the one blizzard has on units.

On halls the advantage is for d&d but at this point it seems it is not at a big degree of difference and we would need a very big sample to get the exact difference.

Boats and dragons are 2x2 in size and they evolve on a different grid so I would definitely try them next because I am now very curious it could very well be that d&d is better for these if they count as 2x2 in size but it could be possible that blizzard deals more damage to them because they are units.

Oil platforms are in fact 3x3 in size but just like the boats and air, so far any difference between the two is hardly noticeable even with 1000 hp each, both spells seem to perform exactly the same on these, I do not have a big sample but I can already tell the difference if there is one is not as visible as the one that exist on farms and units.

Yeah @Lambchops I noticed that both spells have that weird behavior when multi-casting I am also pretty sure it works the same for other spells like runes tornado and even attack ground if I am not mistaking which is very handy :thumbsup:

Yes @Winchester I can agree that rune has more range of utility and is arguably a better spell at the moment, all things can be balanced by tweaking values and thus keeping the game mechanics intact though. There is value to this approach we all love these iconic spells and what they can do how they look like, if we can manage to make them all worth using without changing that we are doing things right.

I think people really love exorcism, heal, skeletons and flameshield these are very cool spells we only need to make them a little more worth it, and make spells that are a bit too op a little bit less.

All so that in the end we get to see everything used more often depending on different situations, players using lust to burst down defenses or win with short skirmishes or getting runes to get more map control and adopt a more defensive approach these type of things not just going lust for the simple reason that it is that much better than everything else. ;)
Title: Re: Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance!
Post by: woofy on November 13, 2018, 02:20:54 PM
I think Exorcism being able to hit Ogre Mages could be interesting.

Exorcism nullifying OM mana, or unlusting units would be awesome
Title: Re: Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance!
Post by: Cel on November 13, 2018, 03:57:52 PM
I think Exorcism being able to hit Ogre Mages could be interesting.

Exorcism nullifying OM mana, or unlusting units would be awesome

Except that wouldn't be exorcism anymore we might as well rename it dispel at this point.

I mean one could argue it may be fun to have skeletons as the primary spell for death knights, a strong shield instead of a heal for paladins or haste and why not summon demons for axe throwers instead of trolls regeneration and divine intervention for mages so that they can revive units. Soon enough that would not be anything like war2 anymore we can achieve balance without changing the mechanics nor the way the game works.

I created that post because I saw a lot of people talking about balancing things but really they mostly suggest we change the game. Warcraft 2 is a game that first is not badly designed, second is not that badly balanced either, and third which remaining success relies primarily on nostalgia.

People come back to the game that they remember and loved, almost every old player remembers paladins have heal and exorcism it is iconic they love these spells they remember what you could use it for, most people remember heal as being good because if felt good throughout the campaign,  most of them didn't ever use lust as efficiently as we do.

Almost none of them remembers exactly how much heal was able to heal and how much mana it cost, they certainly don't remember how powerful exorcism was and how much mana it cost. Players tend to have a memory bias they remember the game as being more balanced than it really is but they do remember very well what spells are and what they were used for.

People want to play the game they remember they come back for these cool mechanics, if it happens to be more balanced that is very good because either they wont remember or they will welcome the change because it will still be war2 but if it feels different that is where you start to loose people big time.

That is why here I am talking balance changes, and numbers tweaking, not mechanics changes or re-design (except for heal not having cap to behave like exorcism because that people wont remember and as mentioned before it should always have been the case).


Title: Re: Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance!
Post by: woofy on November 13, 2018, 04:42:40 PM
I think Exorcism being able to hit Ogre Mages could be interesting.

Exorcism nullifying OM mana, or unlusting units would be awesome

Except that wouldn't be exorcism anymore we might as well rename it dispel at this point.

I mean one could argue it may be fun to have skeletons as the primary spell for death knights, a strong shield instead of a heal for paladins or haste and why not summon demons for axe throwers instead of trolls regeneration and divine intervention for mages so that they can revive units. Soon enough that would not be anything like war2 anymore we can achieve balance without changing the mechanics nor the way the game works.

I created that post because I saw a lot of people talking about balancing things but really they mostly suggest we change the game. Warcraft 2 is a game that first is not badly designed, second is not that badly balanced either, and third which remaining success relies primarily on nostalgia.

People come back to the game that they remember and loved, almost every old player remembers paladins have heal and exorcism it is iconic they love these spells they remember what you could use it for, most people remember heal as being good because if felt good throughout the campaign,  most of them didn't ever use lust as efficiently as we do.

Almost none of them remembers exactly how much heal was able to heal and how much mana it cost, they certainly don't remember how powerful exorcism was and how much mana it cost. Players tend to have a memory bias they remember the game as being more balanced than it really is but they do remember very well what spells are and what they were used for.

People want to play the game they remember they come back for these cool mechanics, if it happens to be more balanced that is very good because either they wont remember or they will welcome the change because it will still be war2 but if it feels different that is where you start to loose people big time.

That is why here I am talking balance changes, and numbers tweaking, not mechanics changes or re-design (except for heal not having cap to behave like exorcism because that people wont remember and as mentioned before it should always have been the case).




I think Exorcism being able to hit Ogre Mages could be interesting.

Exorcism nullifying OM mana, or unlusting units would be awesome
Title: Re: Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance!
Post by: easycompany on November 13, 2018, 07:09:26 PM
just take away castle stage all together.
Title: Re: Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance!
Post by: Cel on November 13, 2018, 11:37:18 PM
just take away castle stage all together.

I laughed  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance!
Post by: easycompany on November 13, 2018, 11:50:44 PM
 ;D but what we are wanting to find is the "this spell can cast without a unit" stuff and make heal cast..then work to find how to make it target a unit like exo...is it possible idk
Title: Re: Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance!
Post by: Lambchops on November 14, 2018, 06:06:08 AM
;D but what we are wanting to find is the "this spell can cast without a unit" stuff and make heal cast..then work to find how to make it target a unit like exo...is it possible idk

no idea, but I agree that would be a cool mod.
Title: Re: Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance!
Post by: Zelya on November 14, 2018, 11:05:26 AM
So, lets compare D&D and blizzard

The basic mechanism is very similar.
Each D&D cast (25 of mana) generates 5 bullets in 5x5 tiles area with basic damage 5-10. Each bullet hit targets 10 times.
Each blizzard cast (25 of mana) generates 5 bullets in 5x5 tiles area with the same basic damage 5-10. Each bullet hit target only once, but it will be recreated 10 times.

The first important thing:
When the game calculates real damage, it take into account the distance between bullet and unit(structure) in pixels.Please note, the this is the real center point of an unit/structure in pixels. And the distance = max(distanceX, distanceY).

If distance*distance > 511 damage will be 2-4 (~22px)
If distance*distance > 1791 damage will be 0 (~42px)

But you can't hit target out of 7x7 tiles square. And one bullet can't hit the same target several times per one game cycle.

Also blizzard needs time for "falling" animation before hitting target, but we'll ignore this. We won`t calculate damage-per-second now.


There are two main differences in D&D and Blizzard bullets generation.
1. D&D bullets are static. And they are always placed into the left-upper corner of the tile.
    Blizzard bullets start moving with offset -110px by X -170px by Y and with step multiple of 12 px.  Also additional starting position offset +11px/-11px can be applied. So, the distance values are more randomized.

2. Blizzard ignores target unit/structure. It takes into account only direct X and Y map coordinates to setup 5x5 generation area.
   D&D pays attention to target position. So, it can be lower/upper corner of the building, and all the 5x5 area will be shifted.


May be I've missed something, but I'm too lazy to check again.

Now you can try to calculate which magic is more preferable in different situations.