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War2Mod (War2 with triggers) beta testing 3411  103

Grunt Posts: 69 Karma: +10/-0 ***

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Re: War2Mod (War2 with triggers) beta testing
« Reply #30 on: December 11, 2020, 12:43:54 PM »
As i see you all suggesting and proposin your ideas. This is good and all.
But any one of you actually go in to server and played with some real players?
And is someone go in to backup server and even tried to play with triggers? Or maybe tried to play 1-2 missions of multiplayer campanign that working on triggers?
If you dnt know about campanign then see there http://forum.war2.ru/index.php/topic,6084.0.html
You go and play some real games first then say what can really be changed and what is just mod for fun.
I call people like you "thrower of ideas" (not very correct translation cause i call this on russian actually "накидыватель мыслей" so dnt now how to translate right, in russian this sounds very funny). My friend Oragorn is official "thrower of ideas" for me (and sometimes lesnik and iL) and for War2Mod too :) . I dnt like some ideas of Oragorn too actually :sweat: but i added in War2Mod mostly for testing purposes. Because his suggestions use some very hardcoded triggers and can cause massive changes to game, so i want people help to test in real game for possible disconnects, crashes etc. If that critical big triggers will be working fine then that means other not so big and hard will be working good too.

So about mana, you maybe dnt understand but mana is BYTE, so max value is 255, cannot make +200 or +10k and etc. Blizzard make game this way and it is very deep in code and cannot be changed.

So invisibility to Alleria whe she like for example receive command to STAND GROUND. Yes that possible. Will be added? Maybe, maybe not. I think i will add for testing period, to actually test this too, and then remove after. Because Alleria is not night elf though :thinking: and there is no night and day time in war2  ;)
So if tests will be going good, maybe people will get possibility to add to they's custom maps trigger for "sneaking" (not just for Alleria, for any designated unit).

fornication is bad translation of блуд LOL ;D this means Bloodlust (Oragorn dnt know english so he is using google translator to create description file for post)
So actually Chogal is ogre-mage who just always have bloodlust enabled on himself.
Grunt Posts: 69 Karma: +10/-0 ***

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Re: War2Mod (War2 with triggers) beta testing
« Reply #31 on: December 11, 2020, 01:20:48 PM »
So info about how is Bloodlust is working.
This is very complicated to just say that this is X2 or X3 or X2.134 and etc.
For you to understand, you must first know how damage works in this game.
So units have 2 types of damage. STRENGTH and PIERCE.
STRENGTH damage is blocked by ARMOR. PIERCE is not blocked.
FULL damage = (STRENGTH-ARMOR(of target))+PIERCE
and then FINAL damage = FULL/2 + random from 1 to FULL/2
so u deal half of dmg + other half randomly
so if you want some real stats for example then. normal default LVL1 OGRE have
4 ARMOR
4 PIERCE DMG
8 STRENGTH DMG
So 8-4=4 dmg strength + 4 dmg pirece =8 = from 4 to 8 dmg OGRE VS OGRE 1lvl

Then we going to upgrades. So upgrades from Smith add +2 to ARMOR and +2 to STRENGTH dmg.
So they negate themselves.
Upgrades from lumbermill give +1 PIERCE (+4 in War2Mod) for archers and trolls.
(HEROES - Alleria and Zuljin recieve upgrades NOT FROM LUMBERMILL but from SMITH, even if status shows +1 and etc, its actually BUG. I saw the real code inside, trust me.)
(And they receive only STRENGTH dmg upgrades not ARMOR)

Human Rangers have another uniqie upgrade - MARKSMANSHIP
this is NOT add +3 dmg, this is actually turns Rangers STRENGTH damage to PIERCE
They have 3 STRENGTH dmg by default, and after upgrade they have 0 STRENGHT and +3 PIERCE.
So if you changed map in editor to rangers to have like 10 strength. With upgrade they receive +10 not +3.


SO BLOODLUST. what is it doing actually?
it making X2 STRENGTH and X2 PIERCE.
SO you can say so after all its actually just X2 yes? NO
BLOOD making X2 BEFORE armor is removed from strength
Example again
normal default LVL1 OGRE have
4 ARMOR
4 PIERCE DMG - 8 with BLOOD
8 STRENGTH DMG - 16 with BLOOD
16-4 !!!! = 12 strength + 8 pierce = 20
from 10 to 20 dmg with blood
it was from 4 to 8 dmg without blood
SO X2.5 actually
So you as you see this is NOT just only X2 because of the fact that BLOOD making X2 BEFORE armor is removed from strength
For units that dont have STRENGTH dmg blood is X2 yes. Like DK or mage. Or if you are attacking unit without armor like peons then this is X2 too.

So with upgrades help or when other units with other stats is fighting BLOOD can give from X1.5 to X4 actually. (if default stats of units was changed in the map then even more maybe)

I dont know if this is a BUG or Blizzard REALLY intended to make game this way.

And if you ask me is this can be changed? Maybe like make it true and always X2 like when it was 4 to 8 dmg make this just 8 to 16 dmg.
Yes i can. But not doing this obviously.
Maybe i can create trigger so people can create custom maps with this fixed blood mechanics if they want.
So do you need me to make this trigger in future?
Peon Posts: 30 Karma: +2/-0 **

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Re: War2Mod (War2 with triggers) beta testing
« Reply #32 on: December 11, 2020, 01:51:56 PM »
join us, play with us, you will got one vote

Thanks, but no. I won't joining you guys, because it's pointless. My APM is around 70-90 and I remember that everyone were playing on Fastest speed. You will rush my base with 30 Ogre-mages with BL before I build Ogre Mound.

You have right. I should shut up if I'm not playing multi.

I call people like you "thrower of ideas" (...)

Yep, that's me :D

Thanks for these code explanations. I have never seen War2 code so I didn't know that mana is a byte variable (max value looks like byte but I didn't think about it).

Well I didn't get your point with Circle of Power summoning deamons and with heroes, that's why I threw ideas with another heroes implementation. Just ignore it :)
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Re: War2Mod (War2 with triggers) beta testing
« Reply #33 on: December 11, 2020, 02:17:09 PM »
join us, play with us, you will got one vote

Thanks, but no. I won't joining you guys, because it's pointless. My APM is around 70-90 and I remember that everyone were playing on Fastest speed. You will rush my base with 30 Ogre-mages with BL before I build Ogre Mound.

You have right. I should shut up if I'm not playing multi.

I call people like you "thrower of ideas" (...)

Yep, that's me :D

Thanks for these code explanations. I have never seen War2 code so I didn't know that mana is a byte variable (max value looks like byte but I didn't think about it).

Well I didn't get your point with Circle of Power summoning deamons and with heroes, that's why I threw ideas with another heroes implementation. Just ignore it :)


my idea is just that random people shouldnt give tips for multiplayer, but your idea could be good in single/custom games


@Mistral
full dmg got dks/trolls mages/archers
not sure about gryphons/dragons

rest got pierce+ normal

you sure about lust?
https://occult.war2.ru/strategy/mechanics/bloodlust.php

I need to say, w2 got "shity dmg"(w3 got more lol), best idea was in sc, where you see marine  dmg 5, so dmg is 5(- armor ofc), upgardes? +1 +1 +1 armor? +1 +1 +1
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Re: War2Mod (War2 with triggers) beta testing
« Reply #34 on: December 11, 2020, 03:39:44 PM »
Yes i sure abot what im saying.
This is not "roughly" calculated stuff. This is actual formulas from code of actual War2 BNE exe file. I saw all this code upside down.
If you dnt trust i can show you the pure code itself and you can see for yourself. (you need to understand at least some assembler though).
and not just dks/trolls mages/archers get full dmg.
all units receive dmg with the that exact same formula.
And this page https://occult.war2.ru/strategy/mechanics/bloodlust.php
Maybe dnt see this? this occult page you shows to me is using the exact same formula. They just have using example of lvl5 ogre not just lvl1.
so lvl1 ogre vs lvl1 knight blood gives X2.5
lvl5 vs lvl5 gives X3 so upgrades important yes.
lvl5 ogre vs lvl1 !! knight this is will be already X3.5 (14-28 dmg) !! (actually just lvl 3 ogres will do as armor upgrades for them change nothing)



So about SC1 dmg. Do you know that there too not very so simply? Like there is units have "size". And some attacks types deal more dmg to "big" enemies some deal less to "small" and etc etc.
But as i see you what meant is that there is no random. Like 5 dmg always 5 - armor. Not like from 2 to 5 and etc. As i see yes maybe this is really good.
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Re: War2Mod (War2 with triggers) beta testing
« Reply #35 on: December 11, 2020, 06:55:02 PM »
Yes i sure abot what im saying.
This is not "roughly" calculated stuff. This is actual formulas from code of actual War2 BNE exe file. I saw all this code upside down.
If you dnt trust i can show you the pure code itself and you can see for yourself. (you need to understand at least some assembler though).
and not just dks/trolls mages/archers get full dmg.
all units receive dmg with the that exact same formula.
And this page https://occult.war2.ru/strategy/mechanics/bloodlust.php
Maybe dnt see this? this occult page you shows to me is using the exact same formula. They just have using example of lvl5 ogre not just lvl1.
so lvl1 ogre vs lvl1 knight blood gives X2.5
lvl5 vs lvl5 gives X3 so upgrades important yes.
lvl5 ogre vs lvl1 !! knight this is will be already X3.5 (14-28 dmg) !! (actually just lvl 3 ogres will do as armor upgrades for them change nothing)



So about SC1 dmg. Do you know that there too not very so simply? Like there is units have "size". And some attacks types deal more dmg to "big" enemies some deal less to "small" and etc etc.
But as i see you what meant is that there is no random. Like 5 dmg always 5 - armor. Not like from 2 to 5 and etc. As i see yes maybe this is really good.


If does it work as suggestion, could it be possible to add some flag or trigger in AI scripts in order to force AI chopping wood each time you save and re-load a file ?

Not sure if people on community have noticed this but this bug exists since DOS version. Everytime you save a campaign mission (this can happen with AIs on multiplayer as well) and you reload then AI will not chop any wood if it's needed for either making more upgrade or more units which require wood or even repairing a damaged building on fire...

This issue can be noticed if you see AIs with peon/peasants standing next to a tower or farm on fire and not doing anything to repair it... Normally if you start a campaign mission or custom map and you play straight up without save/load for once, so you can notice that AIs will repair and if they need then will chop wood for repairing or building more units etc...

This is a very old bug that it's really frustrating to see because it ruins completely all AI script once you reload the same game at least once... The only way this tends to re-work (just to chop a little more wood) is when you go to main menu / quit the game and then rejoin the saved map, so then AIs will start chopping wood again (for some few minutes) and then will get into the same loop, so workers will stand next to a tower on fire and nothing more will be done for AI.

I'd really appreciate if you can bring up a solution for this because this bug can be really frustrating if you're experienced on the game.

For example, here you can see a person who acknowledges the same old BUG:

https://www.gog.com/forum/warcraft_ii_battlenet_edition/is_the_ai_broken_or_was_it_always_like_this/page2

" I remember the AI breaking when saving and loading. This was back when I played a few years ago, so I'm not sure if it was addressed or not.
What would happen is after saving and loading a few times the AI would completely stop producing units. Took the fun out of the game. "

This is happening because AI stops gathering any wood after reloading as I just addressed.

If anybody have noticed this issue please let it know...
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Re: War2Mod (War2 with triggers) beta testing
« Reply #36 on: December 11, 2020, 09:06:03 PM »
yes but people in 90% games(expect braviet lol) got lvl +4 attack before lust

Level 5 ogre attacks a level 5 knight: ((12 - 8 ) + 4 = 8. The ogre will do 4-8 damage per hit.

Level 5 ogre with bloodlust attacks a level 5 knight: ((24 - 8 ) + 8 = 24. The ogre will do 12-24 damage per hit. That's 3.0 times as strong as the ogre without bloodlust.

Its funny that 9 lusted ogres can hit with bad luck 12 dmg per hit vs 9 ogres 24 dmg  :rofl:
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Re: War2Mod (War2 with triggers) beta testing
« Reply #37 on: December 12, 2020, 04:52:45 AM »
Its funny that 9 lusted ogres can hit with bad luck 12 dmg per hit vs 9 ogres 24 dmg  :rofl:

It's funny and bad at the same time. Maybe dmg mechanism should be fix first instead of heroes and new units.
I agree with you that Starcraft has much better solution for that. For example rifle attacks (Terran Marines/Ghosts) deals normal dmg to every "light" creatures but only some % to buildings or "heavy" units. So Ghost with 10 dmg will deal full dmg to other Ghosts, Zerglings, Marines etc. but only 3 to Tanks, buildings, Ultralisks etc. Next thing is armor that just subtracts the damage. So if Ghost attacks Tank he will deal only 3 - Tank's armor dmg (but not less than 1 dmg).

It's constant dmg, without any random values between 12-24 (that scale of randomize is an absurd and I think we can all agree with that).
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Re: War2Mod (War2 with triggers) beta testing
« Reply #38 on: December 12, 2020, 05:49:53 AM »
I think its casue diffrent armor, like in w3 when you got no armor, light armor, heavy armor. medium armor, hero and fortified

http://classic.battle.net/war3/basics/armorandweapontypes.shtml
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Re: War2Mod (War2 with triggers) beta testing
« Reply #39 on: December 12, 2020, 07:00:33 AM »
I think its casue diffrent armor, like in w3 when you got no armor, light armor, heavy armor. medium armor, hero and fortified

http://classic.battle.net/war3/basics/armorandweapontypes.shtml


It's a little over-complicated for War2, but I agree - something like that would be a good change  :slight_smile:

EDIT:
I have tested this mod. Well... if you want to go this way it's necessary to give heroes new/modified sprites, because it's kind a mess in guessing who is who (which unit is normal and which is hero). But imo I wouldn't go this way... it's just weird changes, I have no idea how it can improve War2 gameplay.

First of all, "attack peons" seems to be not needed at all. Maybe if someone would like to end match in 3 mins and rush enemy with peons  :thinking:

Second thing is that every new hero/bulding costs oil, so after recruiting few heroes I couldn't upgrade my Stronghold to Fortress (it was intentional? Why?). It's weird decision, because on sea maps everything will be available, on land maps only 1-2 hero or new building will, because still Ogre-mages+BL rulez so I would definitely prefer Fortress than few super units.

Spoiler

Button to build/hire new units has old descriptions... but bigger issue is that there no description what hero actually do. I just see text: "hire two-headed ogre", gets Dentarg and... nothing special to notice, he looks like normal ogre with mana. Maybe new button with short ability description? I don't know how difficult it might be with War2 code, but without it is a big unknown what heroes are doing.

Spoiler

Last thing is about Speed variable. I understand now, it's not used in original War2 code and that's why you could use it for something else :D It looks weird when one Ogre has Speed: 4, another Speed: 0 but they move with the same speed in game. Player don't know what's going on.

Spoiler


To be honest, I appreciate that you spent your free time on making some modification to this old game, but I don't like it. Sorry. Few ideas are nice, but most aren't.

Your campaign Alaunter was a great thing  :slight_smile: so I will wait for Act2 of it  :slight_smile:  :wc2:
It will be cool if you implement few ideas from this mod to Alaunter Act2!




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Re: War2Mod (War2 with triggers) beta testing
« Reply #40 on: December 12, 2020, 08:10:42 AM »
it count now kills, attack peons are not worth to make, who will make attack peon when normal peon is better? and it waste time to make them from town hall?
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Re: War2Mod (War2 with triggers) beta testing
« Reply #41 on: December 12, 2020, 09:17:00 AM »
I dont know why but im impressed :newthumbsup: :newthumbsup:
Grunt Posts: 69 Karma: +10/-0 ***

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Re: War2Mod (War2 with triggers) beta testing
« Reply #42 on: December 12, 2020, 09:56:12 AM »
Ok i put new version on server just now.
Get some speed improvements.

1) Now runestones place buffs faster.
2) Paladins autoheal reaction is faster.
3) Portals now not working automatically. You must order your unit go into portal to teleport them, and teleportation is must be faster and without lag. (comps cannot order their units to do that so cause of that they cannot use portals, but there is no difference actually because they was stupid to begin with.)
4) Allied Transports now not working automatically. You must order your unit go into transport, and they go inside fast and without lag. Allied comps units still get sucked inside automatically. And there is fun moment. If your unit is going inside of allied comp transport, they mostly will be stuck there forever :) but sometimes comps transports can move your units somewhere, drop them and go back where they was (actualy this is so LOL). I not programmed this, it is some weird war2 AI mechanics) like maybe transport thinking "i have army inside, so i must send them to attack somewhere".
6) Hadgar slow aura is faster.
7) Teron death aura is faster.
5) Added "sneaking" for Alleria in War2Mod. For testing purposes. So when you order Alleria to STAND GROUND she will go inviz.

So that new added things. I afraid that this "fast and without lag" thing may cause desyc or disconnects errors because they are just so fast.
So everyone test, and PLEASE say if you have errors. I will revert all things back if there is some bugs.
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Re: War2Mod (War2 with triggers) beta testing
« Reply #43 on: December 12, 2020, 10:02:53 AM »
problem with invis alleria can be, if you got players go  basetrade, and player A got better army, but player B got alleria, how player A can kill alleria without catapult/dk?
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Re: War2Mod (War2 with triggers) beta testing
« Reply #44 on: December 12, 2020, 10:27:02 AM »
Ye i know about that problem) but as i said "For testing purposes". Will be removed later. Will be added as trigger for custom map makers only. (maybe if they want to make something like RPG map this can be used).