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Messages - Pandaprewmaster325

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196
Strategy & Replays / Re: Rebalancing warcraft 2: human edition
« on: August 31, 2024, 09:37:27 AM »
did you saw triggers game mode?
there is also triggers editor prog
there is trigger that fix blood, makes exactly x2, just changes place of armor calc
you can set trigger in map and host in in triggers game mode

No sadly Im not playing on pc  these months using only my phone having installed a ps1 emulator and gone through couple ps1 games wc2 came to mind having never tried it before but played its various remakes in wc3 I was like hey this is my chance to try out OG wc2 so I got the dark saga port there is no way to edit the game data as its ps1 data  what I'm trying to say is there is no way for me to use map editor trigger editor whatever items the pc version has  which is why I again and again stated in the posts that there is no current version of the mod being made until then I can only speculate and theorize about what to change but  that's a glimmer of hope knowing BL against armor can be fixed.

197
Strategy & Replays / Re: Rebalancing warcraft 2: human edition
« on: August 31, 2024, 06:38:15 AM »
lol wtf
no one will use blood on grunt
why, if you have ogres
if you must have to use grunt vs paladin then something is very fucked up going on in your game (like maybe no lumber for ogres ?)

so the main problem with blood is that blizzard fucked up calculation, it should have been making exactly x2 damage
but they remove armor after doubling, not before.
this makes the armor itself and armor upgrades is way more weakier agains blood.
because of that it can become from x1.5 to x3 damage.
only on units with 0 armor like peons it have normal honest x2 as intended

main power of blood is not actually because killing units, there is many other stuff that can kill enemy units.
but there is very very little things that can kill buildings.
i mean kill buildings FAST.
lvl 1 ogre have 8 str damage and 4 pierce
he deals from 6 to 12 dmg on 0 armor unit
and 12 - 24 with blood
but on building str damage is blocked
building have 20 armor
so no matter blood or not, 8 or 16 they blocked by 20
that means there is stay only 2-4 damage or 4-8 with blood
but lvl 3 ogre with 2 upgrades on damage
will have 12 str damage
and with blood it will be 24, that means it outdamage even buildings armor
20 - 24 = 4 more overdamage
means 6-12 damage on buildings with blood, instead of default 4-8 (which is basically x3 instead of x2)
difference prob seems not very big, but ogres attack speed is fast
with blood they need 7-8 less hits in average to kill guard tower for example
this is why its very VERY important to do 2 damage upgrades for ogres
they can crack open closed bases sometimes even before player can understand what happens and before peons can run here to even start repair
ogres and peons have same attack animation speed, that means you need 2 peons to outrepair blood ogres lvl 1 damages, but for lvl 3 ogres you need 3 peons per ogre, sometimes you simply not have enough space for peons to stand and repair, so ogres will crack open base no matter if you repair or not.

but ok this is buildings, if you remember units then lets check vs knight (or other ogre)
so they on lvl 1, have 4 armor, they block it from 8
8-4=4 + 4(pierce) =  4-8 damage
and witch blood
16-4=12 + 8 =  10-20 damage, so directly x2.5 already
now check lvl5 vs lvl5
12 dmg - 8 armor = 4 + 4 = 4-8 damage normal
but with blood
24 - 8 = 16 + 8 = 12 - 24 damage
which is x3, they will need 10 less hits in average to kill knight
this is why important to upgrade damage for ogres

remember knight still hits ogre for 4-8, he need 10 more attacks in average to kill
if you add heal here, you can add +1 attack because heal animation is just like attack animation.
so you can heal 40 hp from full mana (seems like 42 but blizzard set hardcoded limit of 40 per 1 heal cast)
so now what, if you lucky and ogre roll small damage, like 12 he still need only 4 hits, and if he roll high like 24, actually even 20 enough, it takes just 2
so what that means, ogre need 5 attack in average to kill knight, knight need like 16
knights spend +1 attack for heal, but its not +1 BUT +2 because while they heal ogres still hits them, and at this time they could have been spending time atacking ogre, so that means knight use +2 to add in average +3 for ogres
now knight have like 18, while ogre still have like 8
so, what if we have more knights, and they all heal
20-11, 22-14, 24-17, 26-20, 28-23, 30-26, 32-29, 34-31, 36-34, 38-37, 40-40, 42-43
so that shows that you need at least 14 (in average, really you need more) knights to outheal one ogre in fight vs same amount of ogres
also remember they all heal from full mana, while blood costs only 50
and on the duration of blood ogre can make 40 attacks.
oh yea you see how wonderful its number 40 again, in my previous calculation paladins was able outheal ogres exactly after 40 hits.
this is reason why blizzard maked heal exactly 6 mana, this is real balance you see.
the only thing is that its on average and in ideal fight and when all paladins heal perfectly on timings


I just happened to encounter bloodlust grunt so I sent a paladin to see if he can take him lol he didn't which was surprising and annoying at the same time.

Now since bloodlust messed up with armor calculation shouldn't there be a way to fix this? No not using map editor but from the data itself.

It was 3 am when I wrote the post above was kinda sleepy lol.

The thing with ogres attacking faster is somewhat silly as in warcraft 3 high tier melee units have longer attack delay compared to warcraft 2 BUT since wc2 favors melee units over ranged (opposite of wc3) perhaps its fine? I get that they made heal 6 mana for reasons but in an actual game I doubt you would have full mana paladin add on this the fast reaction it needs isn't as easy to pull off since you can heal enemy units with mis clicks but as I said before humans aren't adequately rewarded for micro compared to orcs who can simply bloodlust and call it a day.

198
Strategy & Replays / Re: Rebalancing warcraft 2: human edition
« on: August 30, 2024, 08:31:08 PM »
Ok so after playing this game for a while I got to see a lvl3 grunt clapping a lvl7 paladin why? BLOODLUST , seriously BLIZZARD? HOW THE HECK DO YOU NOT NOTICE HOW BROKEN BLOODLUST IS? If a grunt a tier 1 unit with lvl3 can beat the crap out of a unit that needs a unique building then needs another unique building to unlock it then you pay 2000 gold for upgrading paladins and heal and your paladins still gets clapped pretty hard THIS IS OUTRAGEOUS MAN WHAT'S EVEN MORE FRUSTRATING IS BLIZZARD DIDN'T EVEN BOTHER TO PATCH THE GAME LIKE 10, ANNIVERSARY OR SOMETHING , you aren't getting rewarded adequately for playing humans while orcs with the least effort can still clap you , listen im an orc fanboy but this is beyond ridiculous I know people came by and said that and that about BLOODLUST but no effort was made to nerf this spell no matter what you do if you don't buff humans they will still suck its by design , "but demo teams-" shut up demo teams require accurate timing to kill the most out of ogre magi  u don't want to use them on the flanks of an ogre magi group where fewer magi go no the center is the right place but how possible that is? I can't wait to get my hands on a filthy pc copy of this game to fix the goddamn trash balance blizzard left but you know what im taking an RTS warcraft title over any RPG warcraft title anytime in the year damn blizzard get back to the roots of warcraft RTS games...

199
Mods & Development / Re: Wall Balance mode (multiplayer)
« on: August 29, 2024, 07:52:40 PM »
Am I missing something? What changed?

200
Strategy & Replays / Re: Rebalancing warcraft 2: human edition
« on: August 29, 2024, 07:20:46 PM »
fun fact, goblins and dwarfs have a little different movement animations
because of that haste spell working better on dwarfs
you can test, without buff they move same speed
but with haste dwarfs are faster that goblins
if you want real numbers then
haste makes goblins move 2 frames faster
but dwarfs will move 4 frames faster

Well that's new news this doesn't matter in 1v1 tho which matters more than team games in my opinion

201
Strategy & Replays / Re: Rebalancing warcraft 2: orc edition
« on: August 28, 2024, 06:54:12 PM »
Hating on whirlwind part 2: so I realized that since whirlwind costs a 100 mana it could be spammed easily and with couple death knights you could make 4-8 whirlwinds and block certain places now that might be why blizzard made the reach of this spell bad since u could spam it and it can wander to everywhere so it might have been considered too OP by blizzard now the problem is all units can outrun whirlwind so you don't get any value of that mana used look I don't think this spell needs damage increase or lower mana cost all it needs is some more reach and it will be a fantastic spell it doesn't even have to kill units it can just soften them up or force enemies to change positions the current whirlwind range makes it so easy to dodge and it won't force relocating player units that often due to its range taking out a good portion of the threat or fear of getting clapped hard by whirlwind  but damn blizzard the spell is so cool u didn't have to do it this dirty ):

202
Strategy & Replays / Re: Rebalancing warcraft 2: human edition
« on: August 28, 2024, 06:43:11 PM »
A unique interaction for humans is demo squads die instantly when invisibility is casted on them while its unique interaction but its honestly more of a minus for humans than plus honestly humans simply lack any sort of buff for their units orcs get attack damage increase , invulnerable buff , movement speed buff  while humans only get healing which is garbage and invisibility that takes up 200 mana without enhancing a unit stats basically humans get no buffs for their stats using magic I don't know why blizzard thought its a goos idea but my theory is they gave humans health restoration and gave orcs anything but health restoration but problem is the health restoration spell is so bad and ineffective.

Goblin sappers can get hasted and orcs can do some shenanigans with that sadly since invisibility kills demo squad humans don't get to do cool stuff with them if THIS isn't some hardcoded BS and is changeable then Im considering adding that into the list of changes for humans , its implications sound really good for humans giving them another tool to harass economy other than blizzard or even knock out forts LOL I could imagine strats being built around invisible demo squads something like human fast castle onto 2 gnomish inventors and a mage tower.

203
Mods & Development / Re: Wall Balance mode (multiplayer)
« on: August 27, 2024, 07:05:12 PM »
Are walls even that good? I get they can block the path but you need to construct each little segment right? Damn that would require a good amount of work on the player side.

204
General Discussion / Re: anti-capitalism thread
« on: August 27, 2024, 01:55:00 PM »
Not to mention the bad education system that rewards students for not studying for 11 years straight then at 12th they are expected to somehow comprehend the fact that they have to study to succeed like you could pass exams without solving anything and just writing down your name most teachers don't give a damn some do but most just want that sweat payment without teaching even properly , whats worse is the education system doesn't even meet or creates the personnel with required skills to suit the market somehow half of the people want to be doctors and engineers and they can't even read arabic correctly , private schools sees the parents of students as walking wallets so u have to go to government schools which aren't very good for the most part , farmers are screwed constantly facing deficit  , a lot of citizens refuse to work in craftsmanship jobs heck most partner with a syrian who runs the whole business (food for example) due to people not wanting to work in things like factories these factories then bring in foreign labor from india Bangladesh and Pakistan who are willing to work for minimal wage who live drink and sleep in the factories  which means u have to abide by the same principles and rules even though you have a house a family and pills , the colleges are scammers they make you pay for every little silly thing and its worse for syrian refugees they rob you of every ounce of cash  , Egyptians occupy most of the construction work literally every field outside government tasks is occupied by non Jordanian citizens and they don't even grant you citizenship  its just sad.

205
General Discussion / Re: anti-capitalism thread
« on: August 27, 2024, 01:31:42 PM »
Im reviving this thread cuz we need communism again the working conditions are horrible 12 hours shifts nearly 7 days a week you are treated like cattle expected to be a weight lifter if u work in factories shitty payment that can't get u to half of the month ZIS iz the work environment in jordan...You need to look far and wide to get a job anyway and u won't get accepted half of the time , NOT to mention the entire system functioning in a capitalistic way little to no competence in employees in government buildings its awful I think a good part can be attributed to capitalism so screw capitalism.

206
Server.War2.ru / Re: War2Rebalanced - We need your feedback!!!
« on: August 27, 2024, 09:42:35 AM »
me
Huh so I guess nice to meet you ed

207
Server.War2.ru / Re: War2Rebalanced - We need your feedback!!!
« on: August 27, 2024, 07:09:11 AM »
This is actually pretty decent changes anyone who opposes rally points/auto heal/manual tower control is either a retard or some old ass person who grew too used to the same game matter of fact its bullshit that you can't que  multiple units one of the best additions of the ps1 port is auto training it helps a lot with economy , I hope you update the mod with something akin to training multiple units the gameplay is sorely lacking many good aspects that are now a staple in the genre no one can deny that personally I have issues with the how this whole is balanced starting from peon to peasant ending with how crappy some spells are.


This game is too outdated and bested by ever single new RTS ever since 95 any person with a half assed brain can realize how shit this game plays I don't hate wc2 I know that it was a huge thing back in 95 but updates like these are what the game needs if I had to draw a what to modernize in this game it would be

1-rally points
2-ability to que multiple units (limit is 15)
3-ability to multi cast
4-add voice lines for upgrades towards completion (could make few unique voice lines for some upgrades like marksmanship)
5-FIX THE AWFUL PATHFINDING
6-and finally balance

The balance for this game is honestly should be the least of concerns the game should be in a playable state modern enough to be playable by new generations opposing positive changes such as rally points is nothing less of retardation these are positive changes before playing wc2 I played aoe1 and it has the same awful issue of no rally points and its not like a lot of fun and joy to pick every single new worker and assign them to tasks its bad BAD.

since road of heroes mod: https://gamebanana.com/mods/433454

I offer such a thing from 1), 4) and 6)

Rally point is a good thing that comes up from Ed in multiplayer using one of the mods in lobby-game. I think rally point is available in Rebalanced mode.

4) is also possible thanks to Ed, even though he didn't add this feature on his mod but on mine they're. Different alert for researches and upgrades.

6) Re-balance in my mods for things like archers-trolls-rangers-berserkers-skeletons-dragon-gryphons and still need some stuff like higher mana cost for bloodlust/D&D and less mana cost for raise of the dead or runes.


Ed told me unit pathfinding is such a thing that would need the entire game to be done from scratch.. either that or more people interested in programming that could help Ed to find out through the code to how fix this feature from the game.


Ah I understand may I ask you who is this ed?

208
Strategy & Replays / Re: Rebalancing warcraft 2: human edition
« on: August 26, 2024, 07:42:27 PM »
So I heard that the carry capacity for trans ships is hardcoded which causes big problem to the change for ze human trans ships  something akin to an identity crisis heh , now if thats impossible to change well that would mean a new change for the trans ships I dunno what to come up with now but I would make sure to post it once I get a good idea of what I want to do with the trans ships  anyone interested in this mod stay tuned AND stay hard.

209
Strategy & Replays / Re: Rebalancing warcraft 2: human edition
« on: August 26, 2024, 07:04:38 PM »
you could be surprised but coil is also AOE spell
if you cast it on empty place it can whiff and missed but it anyways SPEND mana on missed cast
it can hp drain in 5x5 aoe around cast place.
this is important - dk do NOT heal 50 hp, they heal only exact hp that was on units that got damaged.
50 damage (and dk heal) is just limit
you can shot up to 25+9 coils in one cast, if in 5x5 area there is 25 land units and can also be 9 air like dragons.
if they all have 1 hp, they all die and dk can get those 36 hp.

so about fireball it have 40 dmg, that means direct shot of explosion is from 20 to 40 hp and splash damage is always 1/4 so 10, then splash damage around is from 5 to 10.
after it flies to cast target location, its speed becomes exactly 1/2 from what it was, and it starting speed depends on distance between mage and target location.
after that it makes explosions every 8 game ticks and disappears on 40th tick, which is exactly 5 explosions.
(dragon or gryphon disappear after 25 ticks which is 3 expo)
each explosion makes damage on direct hit (20-40) and splash on 8 units around direct hit (5-10)
so this is very very VERY random yes.

potentially firebal is way stronger than coil, if you acurately hit line of units you can potentially do 200-300 damage to group of units, where some weak units like archers or peons is 70-80% guaranteed to die.
while coil only have 50 hardcoded damage and there is no way to go beyond that (ofc this also heals dk but...)

so there is no problem in spell itself actually but how to use it, you cannot find enemy units convenientely standing in good line like this often, more often it can be when they are moving around but its requires high skill in aiming it.
other thing is that blizzard is way more stronger so usage of fireball becames obsolete.

Yeah I knew about coil aoe damage spread its ok now I suspected that the healing for DK is based on how much damage it deals but I wasn't 100% sure if that's the case thx for confirming that.

And while fireball has much better damage overall it requires more skill which in practice makes coil better  as you simply direct the coil at the enemy and thats it it doesn't even have to be on them just near them meanwhile fireball isn't always optimal to use as you stated and blizzard well you won't be using blizzard against moving targets unless you lure them into the blizzard  the problem is coil doesn't punish you for using it in battle near your troops fireball does that and while 50 dmg isn't much its guaranteed damage with no consequences for your troops I don't think anyone would trade safe damage dealing  +heal to friendly fire dealing thing that requires some skill when u can just spend that mana on an easier spell to use that is blizzard.

210
Strategy & Replays / Re: Rebalancing warcraft 2: human edition
« on: August 26, 2024, 03:32:48 PM »
I don't know what blizzard was thinking At the time of making fireball it is awful compared to death coil no I don't think its the damage being bad or the mana cost its purely because death coil is 100% accurate guarantee to damage the enemy , meanwhile fireball requires careful aiming and add on that friendly fire which makes it even more impractical when wanting to support the melee troops with mages LIKE BLIZZARD HOW DID YOU NOT NOTICE HOW AWFUL THIS IS.


I think a good way to make this spell useful is simply making it not harm friendly troops it still has its unique quirk of requiring more aiming at the enemy but that I believe makes it satisfying to use fireballs just no harming friendly forces and Im sure this spell would be useable.

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