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Messages - Pandaprewmaster325

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226
Strategy & Replays / Re: Balance
« on: August 12, 2024, 08:14:41 AM »
So you just threw half an idea out there expecting feedback.

No I didn't say I need feedback for humans now the human rebalance still needs a couple days of cooking before its ready there is also space to mess around with building time and buildings costs such changes may push certain factions to a certain playstyle

227
Strategy & Replays / Re: Balance
« on: August 12, 2024, 08:09:14 AM »
i think rangers + mage slow and fireballs are a good counter to ogres, as long as blizzard/D&D is nerfed to have range 5 and mana cost to like 75

problem with the strongest spells is that they are so powerful in comparison to anything else.

there're way more area of effect attacks/spells that could help out against bloodlust, without necessarily removing the insane damage that bloodlust does.

One of the other problems is that present in multiplayer, its the fact people tend to play on the fastest speed in war2, which makes impossible to micro with spells and units like rangers. Including the overall big latency. To anybody outside of russia or USA.

Skeletons definetely deserve something like 60 HP, more attack speed, a bit of armor and more damage, like on my mods. If skeletons are present in play, you will automatically see exorcism being used way more.

Flame shield is the other so undervalued and non used spell in game, which i think could be way more fun to see in action, if blizzard/D&D is nerfed in range and mana cost.
  Death and decay and blizzard may indeed need some rework and rebalance  , I stated before that teching into rangers is quite a task and I doubt someone would consider starting ranger spam until they get +2 dmg  rangers also share the same building with paladins which u would need to protect the other units so the humans are put in this difficult situation where they have to get multiple barracks and train a multitude of units and pay a huge amount of resources to upgrade them while orc is just "bloodlust go brrrrrr" with some DKs as such its better to simply nerf bloodlust while I get that it would take some of the awesomeness the spell has x1.5 will be a middle ground I believe , interesting stuff about skeletons they are awful not worth the effort  ,  and flame shield is really a cool spell  it could force the enemy to micro their units carefully isolating that unit from the rest  problem is its double edged sword I think the lightning shield from wc3 has way more impact due to how the game plays like in wc2 it more or less spammy game but in 3 forcing the enemy to relocate a unit could make it easier to kill and secure a tactical victory for the player.


On the topic of speed it really do seem to play a role personally I can't stand the stupidity of units running around like some sort of racing car and the running animations are way too goofy on fastest speed a possible solution would be to rework the start of the game instead of starting with a single worker u start with a townhall instead as I heard that the reason fastest speed is played is due to the very slow start of the game.

228
Strategy & Replays / Re: Balance
« on: August 11, 2024, 06:35:40 PM »
Feedback from experienced players would be more valuable. I think it's fine, they are not massive changes, it's solid, but the interesting part is what you do with humans. No need to go into numbers. As of now, you haven't said much about balance as a whole. I don't see it either, humans are going to improve how?
Yeah humans are a bit more tricky orcs are just brute strength but humans would be a lot more diverse it would need some thinking and figuring out some stuff and yes I definitely would want insight from long time pro players it is useful although something to keep in mind is that professional players are a minority and their views may not necessarily align with the rest of the more casual community.

229
Strategy & Replays / Re: Balance
« on: August 11, 2024, 01:31:27 PM »
I like that.

 Yes btw I think u have seen it my post about rebalance what do you think of the proposed changes? I didn't get much feedback aside from "muh you made orcs stronger"

230
Strategy & Replays / Re: Balance
« on: August 11, 2024, 12:54:50 PM »
I think so. And I don't know. I'm not suprised the same happens at other games.
Huh that's correct some games tend to shift the focus of the meta from time to time or even the meta itself changes like age of empires 2 where the devs are continuously attempting to make infantry be meta although the way they do it is debatable same for wc3  the meta for the undead is shifting from crypt fiends (undead ranged unit) to ghouls (undead basic melee unit) the thing is players will always keep poking the game until they find the perfect strategy or tactics and the poor devs have to work with that somehow XD as someone said there is no perfect balance but the best we can do is make every unit useable now in wc2 case its making every unit unique in a way that slightly differs from its counterpart and is more suitable towards the faction theme/identity I would like to hear people thoughts on this.

231
Strategy & Replays / Re: Balance
« on: August 10, 2024, 08:55:45 PM »
There's not much more than what Danny posted afaik. That's all there is. If you can come up with something better go ahead. I have the feeling that the playerbase will keep ordering the same flavor.

Didn't danny change textures graphics add new units voice lines and such? Yeah I mean simply changing the balance of the game while keeping everything else the same was that attempted before? I think it would make for an interesting experiment to shake the meta a little the meta reminds me of red alert 2 meta ra2 being one of the most famous RTS games out there kind of feels like lacking in MP as the meta revolves mainly around the same units for the allies its the prism tanks for the most part the soviets well rhinos and apocalypse tanks while everything else is akin to accessories does it make for a fun gameplay yeah does it get boring fast? Heck yeah I think wc2 suffers the same issue the game revolves around a set of units that are the only way to acquire a reliable amount of wins with AKA ogre magi honestly wc2 should be renamed from "tides of darkness" to  "tides of bloodlust"

232
Strategy & Replays / Re: Balance
« on: August 10, 2024, 02:37:15 PM »
There definitely is a dedicated fan base otherwise this site won't be a thing :D , but no I don't think "it is what it is" there is the tools to change the game to bring a new interesting balance I mean the MP looks like a back and forth BLoodlust spam with some DKs thrown into the mix and some catapults I don't think its good for a game to have such one sided match ups the community can do something about this it will be a breath of fresh air something to incite curiosity into people to make them  try out new strategies it sounds far fetched as people will most likely stick to what they know never leaving the comfort zone but We can try to rebalance the game even if it won't mean much in the end at least we tried to bring something new.

233
Strategy & Replays / Re: Balance
« on: August 10, 2024, 10:25:56 AM »
I
@dannyldd I re-read your post. You were right about the changes you made. Archers and dragons need higher fire rate, and blizz needs less range. I also came across players that say that the game is balanced.

archers just need a slight attack speed boost and they could frankly be a good counter to bloodlust with mage slow, for example. It takes actual skill to execute but it would be worthy.

Also, if Death & decay / blizzard cost increases aside of range, all the other area of effect spells with immediatelly turn useful, like death coils / whirlwinds / fire shield.

Raise of the dead need something like cost 40mana/cast and a bit stronger stats for skeletons


The problem I see with archers isn't only attack speed its the cost you need to tech into them you have to get like 4 upgrades or 5 to make them decent and research all upgrades in the same building and don't forget the need to tech up meanwhile ogre magi just get needs 2 upgrades and boom ultra damage dealing I doubt armor is effective when you dealing 3x the damage  but no no everything is fine lets keep the balance as it is not like many people have discussed the issues with bloodlust for so long like damn it blizzard it doesn't take immense skill to update this game does it???

234
Strategy & Replays / Re: Rebalancing warcraft 2: orc edition
« on: August 08, 2024, 07:03:09 PM »
I'm not sure about your last sentences. Do you want units like Ogre-magi or paladins or Rangers to have a different sprite ? Because this is also achieved in the recent mods I've made like Road of heroes.

Rangers get their hood. Paladins get yellow eyes sprites. Ogre magi turn blue. This can be done with code + plugins, but actually this feature alone already existed since like 1995.

Blizzard just did not give proper usage to this feature. There's a mod called Weapons of our Warfare that I also imported to war2 windows version where knights change sprites when turning paladin. If this is what you referred to.

Yes I meant new models for these units it would help to easily identify them without having to click on them

235
Strategy & Replays / Re: Rebalancing warcraft 2: orc edition
« on: August 07, 2024, 07:57:47 AM »
The most realistic way to experience re-balance is checking out this "Rebalanced" mode in multiplayer. In game lobby on multiplayer, you can set up this mode.

Either that or you can check my mods or the ones from Ed gorod that has some special tweaks to abilities or new ones to bring a whole new balance.


I used to play StarCraft 1 as amateur against some pros and the issue is more likely the Fans that settle down for the current balance. As much as people like the game, there's not such a thing as perfect balance, besides many speech these words. Neither Starcraft 1, war2 or any other game.

But its up to community to change that out.


I also thought that Trolls sight nor Berserk regeneration upgrades can be tweaked as well. Regeneration is not even close to how useful marksmanship upgrade is for Rangers.

If you're aware from MPQ file, then you can try that out. Except that this file alone pretty much replaces the base game files. In order to change mana costs or attack speeds for certain maps, then it still needs usage from extra tools or even code.

But there's no tutorial available for such a thing.

The game still can be tweaked way more now, thanks to Ed since like 2-3 years already but there's no tutorials to do such a thing. But I'm aware very few people may know already the existence of new generation modding capabilities being brought by Ed gorod.

Yes true MP is a good way to know what works and what doesn't work , you see when I say "mod" I mean changing the game data universally , I don't think custom balance for maps is counted as a mod as it only applies to that one map , now here is the thing im not interested in trying out new additions as I think the game needs no new units or more spells it needs updating that is having unique models for each unit and by this I mean ogres and ogre magi etc should have distinct looks there is a mod about this on moddb that adds this  its confusing when ogre magi has runes all over his body in the icon but looks same as ogre , the game also needs notifications for when an upgrade is finished a lot of things this game needs to modernize not only balance.

236
Strategy & Replays / Re: Rebalancing warcraft 2: orc edition
« on: August 06, 2024, 02:35:19 PM »
i already applied some sort of re-balance for some units in Road of heroes MOD:
https://gamebanana.com/mods/433454

basically I think that if archers are buffed a bit, they can stand a chance against bloodlust fest. Yes, the spell is very overpowered. And yes, there has been made a topic thread about re-balancing the game, but overall people are too conservative to get any applied change to evolve the game:

https://forum.war2.ru/index.php?topic=7111.msg101917#msg101917 >>  Topic: Maps with human rebalance stats

https://forum.war2.ru/index.php?topic=7143.msg101916#msg101916 >> Topic: Wall Balance mode (multiplayer)

https://forum.war2.ru/index.php?topic=6516.0 >> Topic: Give ur Ideas for future features in rebalance mode!

https://forum.war2.ru/index.php?topic=6796.msg101992#msg101992 >> Topic: Balance. One of my replies

https://forum.war2.ru/index.php?topic=6511.msg97941#msg97941 >> Topic: War2Rebalanced - We need your feedback!!!


Basically in my Road of heroes mod I applied:
Faster slight attack speed for archers/troll
Rangers/berserkers get a slight further attack speed boost with their researches.
60 HP, faster attack speed and a bit more of damage for skeletons.

Heal get down to 4mana/1HP instead of 6. Difference is big and its an ability that takes actual skill.

Still need to nerf Death&Decay/Blizzard casting range from like 9 to 5 or 6 and mana cost to like 75.
This spell is the ultimate one from death knights & mages. Its not possible that is used so much more than their basic spell, death coil & fireballs. You can get away from so many situations with this spell alone. If its nerfed and only used in certain situations, automatically you will get many other area of effect spells & attacks in their place. Like whirlwinds, death coils, fireballs, even fire shields.

Fire shield would be a fun spell to see playing against since you need actual skill to react in time and move your units appropriately.

----

Be that as it may, you still need usage of code + plugins in order to tweak the game and bring an actual game balance update. It's just not enough with map editor and tweaking some unit statistics.

Mana costs, attack speeds, movement speeds are simply not allowed for casual level people in map editor and requires some core game files that, unfortunately cannot be found in public tutorials.

It took me some time to accustom to the ways to tweak some core game files to achieve this. Maybe in the future will do tutorials if people are interested in.

Yes I have seen your work  , trolls and archers definitely need an urgent buff for skeletons I think more durability makes more sense than damage , I don't know how the game community has been ok with such balance for 29, years and notice the most discussed topic is the difference between bloodlust and heal before spells casters come out you are literally playing a mirror match expect its different skins , about accessing game data I think the data is mpq stored? Wouldn't it simply be extract it get the statistics file edit it and boom a new mod? You see I think we could use a unofficial patch to fix some AI issues update pathfinding etc and rebalance the game a bit something akin to unofficial crusader patch for stronghold crusader

237
Strategy & Replays / Re: Rebalancing warcraft 2: orc edition
« on: August 06, 2024, 12:20:46 PM »
No I haven't tried MP yet im playing on an emulator on a phone not on pc as such I can't try MP but I have watched couple MP matches.

Now I know I just buffed orcs but humans aren't left out LOL im trying to give both factions a unique theme by giving each unit minor differences the post about humans as I said is coming soon

Lastly the idea of the mod isn't very directed to MP as I need to turn this into an actual mod which I can't do at the time being so we gonna stick to hypothesis for now.

238
Strategy & Replays / Rebalancing warcraft 2: orc edition
« on: August 06, 2024, 08:57:28 AM »
Hello guys , whoever is browsing this site at 3 am in the morning well its good to see you , ok lets get few things straight first warcraft 2 balance....its old the game will be 30 years old by 2025 visually its looks fine the soundtrack is the best warcraft can offer but the balance man....its not great if any warcraft fan even slightly looks into wc2 he would realize that bloodlust is insane it has been discussed to death but yes this ability needs a nerf the whole game needs a revamp for balance to make every unit unique grunts are footmen and footmen are grunts despite the fact that grunts wear less armor... Today post will be about the orcish race as I currently picked up wc2 for the first time its the dark saga edition on the ps1 I have tried the many remakes of wc2 in wc3 some differ from the others but overall its wc2 copied into wc3 engine the improvements are things like pathfinding and unit selection maximum being 12 but lets not deviate a lot from the topic.



how would we rebalance the orcs to be up to today standards? Ok maybe not the today standards (they are terrible just look at wow lore) but first we have to ask what do orcs do best? What are the orcs famous for? Its brute strength in almost every depiction of warcraft orcs they always looked larger than humans and significantly more muscular in wc3 the real big difference was made with grunts having 700 base health compared to footmen with 420 and peons with 250 health compared to peasants with 220 the difference was set orcs have higher durability humans have better equipment so we gonna translate that into warcraft 2 with its rusty pathfinding and no way points so lets begin

Orcs: orcs would have good melee units reliable enough to base your army around them their range unit the trolls would be something available but not necessary to include in every match  orcs would rely on strong melee mediocre ranged and good spell casters with a slow to start but capable navy buildings are unchanged.

Peon: peons would get +5 health this would help them survive few things maybe 1 more hit from a footman

Grunts: grunts would get +5 health and +1 attack (note none of this is tested yet as such its prone to change its possible to buff the health by +10 instead of +5 in case it wasn't enough)

Troll axe thrower: +5 health  trolls are stronger physically than elves , attack speed would be increased as to make ranged units better honestly ranged units in this game suck a reason for it is the slow attack speed  I currently have no access to the game data so I don't know the exact details of the stats but a buff to attack speed is needed no numbers given currently.

Troll berserker: regenerates health without needing an upgrade , (basically regeneration for free)

Catapults: area of effect damage increased  , the idea is to have catapults damage targets around the central target way more  since it seems splash damage deals around the target 25% damage it would be increased to  35-45%

Ogres: +5 health for base ogre

Ogre magi:+5 health and +1 attack

Death knights: +1 attack

Dragons: +20 health

Goblin zepplin: +1 line of sight

Goblin sappers: +10 dmg 

With this the orc land army would be capable enough while still lacking any sort of healing the better and tanky grunts and ogres would do most of the work trolls would be somewhat viable  with fast regeneration allowing them prolonged survival under fire giving them a chance to escape very melee oriented but we aren't done yet lets head to the navy

The tanker doesn't need any changes

Troll destroyer: +10 health  +10 seconds of build time , the orcs and their allies aren't the most sea faring people but they do build solid ships while lacking the immense experience of the elves and humans to construct battle ships quickly

Transport ships: starts with 1 base armor or gets +6 armor for each upgrade instead of 5

Ogre juggernaut: +50 health +25 seconds of build time 

Sea turtle: +10 or +15 health +10 seconds of build time

The orcish navy would have durability but would be slow to construct  perhaps a worthy trade off.

With the navy done lets head to spells/upgrades

Blacksmith: attack upgrades would cost less for orcs
Lvl1: reduced gold cost from 500 to 300
Lvl2: reduced gold cost from 1500 to 1000

Lumber mill: regeneration upgrade doubles or triples the regeneration speed of berserkers health


Spells:
Bloodlust: bloodlust effect would be halved  , gone are the days of ogre magi spam it still costs 50 mana tho , a possible buff would be +10 duration

Raise dead: skeletons +15 health

This concludes it for this post of rebalancing this old relic forgotten by modern warcraft but we don't forget we don't forgive we are de amani ah I mean warcraft 2 community.

Notes and additional stuff: this will be turned into a mod eventually currently the mod only exists as this post stay tuned for the human edition

-another change would be to farms giving 5 food instead of 4 its literally a scam to pay 750 resources for 4 food

-costs of units would be altered specifically grunts and ogres buildings and spells would cost the same.

Thanks for reading.

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