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466

Server.War2.ru / Re: Encourage players to play for the challenge. Remove counters all together :P

« on: March 08, 2018, 08:09:36 PM »

I am not talking about removing all kind of stats/ranking more about keeping them where they are relevant and remove the ones that are not.
This is about clear separation providing both competitive ranking and serious gaming as we know it.
And a place where you can do all the bad things you want without it be counted anywhere so people feel they have a place to practice.

Basically you would just have to say your game is ranked so people know when they get in and are in the right state of mind.
These games would have way more relevant stats too.
We already have a ranking system what I am talking about are the win/loss counters you have in your profile that I think do not add competitiveness but still may have negative effects.

These are the only ones I am talking about removing I do not want to remove the ladder just maybe make it more clear when a game will be ranked and not for everyone :-)

If you are a competitive player you would see how it actually helps your cause.
From that perspective to have both things separated new players will tend to avoid ranked games until they think they are ready so you will get more interesting and serious games.
Also because basically in a ranked game you don't have watchers you can have ranked team games stats that mean something now that would be nice.

467

Server.War2.ru / Re: Encourage players to play for the challenge. Remove counters all together :P

« on: March 08, 2018, 07:21:06 PM »

^Now that is more constructive thinking it might be hard to do although if it is on server side it could be also very easy depending on how it is done and of course that would be a good concern to take into consideration.

I changed the poll options because I wasn't being very constructive and did not reflect properly the open-mind I was saying I would keep so there you go lets be a bit more serious about this :-)

If it is doable and you guys want to keep these numbers I want to know why and your point of views and your thinking behind it.

468

Server.War2.ru / Re: Encourage players to play for the challenge. Remove counters all together :P

« on: March 08, 2018, 06:25:50 PM »

Well here is the approach my logic follows when I say we can easily identify reasons why they can have a negative effect on player's behaviors:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behavioral_game_theory
Indeed game theory is good and a very powerful way of analyzing consequences of rules and actions on people's behaviors.

Now even if you think that is bullshit and you think that argument is not good enough well give us one reason we should keep them.
One reason why you would think we need these numbers.

I am not saying removing them is the only way I am saying we should start thinking about this and maybe discuss it.

I have a proposition I think it might be a good start lets discuss it, mix points of views, and maybe agree on something.
I am willing to stay open minded but for the moment I honestly do not see what these numbers are good for though I can see reasons why we would be better off without them.

Again very very small change but hey maybe someone put these numbers there for a reason?
I want to know what it is.
So maybe we can talk about this see if that reason still stands and if there is a better reason to get rid of them and/or change the thing.

469

Server.War2.ru / Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment

« on: March 08, 2018, 06:13:03 PM »

Well your parents didn't have to know because nothing happened and nothing happened maybe because there were rules and well defined limits that is the point.

If we do what you say which we already do one group will eventually prevail and the others wont want to stay this is called cultural domination (as very well described by sociologists like Bourdieu).

The idea here is to prevent these destructive interactions as a way of strengthening the community.
Making sure no group of people is able to dominate and eliminate less aggressive and more peaceful ones. Without rules only the boldest the strongest and the most aggressive cultures survives.

If we want to bring back nice people of all levels playing the game we should make sure that they won't just be pushed away when they arrive.
Otherwise let's just say we give up on that too...

470

Server.War2.ru / Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment

« on: March 08, 2018, 05:16:37 PM »

Well see not so long ago someone's child was harassed on the server check up that forum historic.

So yes it may happen.
Yet again you seem to be proud that you were given the tools to defend yourself guess what back in the days your parents had ways they could report such a thing if it happened on battle.net.
So that is one example that is a bad example sorry to say.

I say we are human we live in society we should make sure the environment is safe for its members right now war2.ru is a dangerous place to let a child play.
It can be also very aggressive toward minorities, do we want to stay that way to basically say if you are not strong enough just get out? Since when do you have to be a white supremacist and neo-nazi to feel at home and comfortable in a video game?

471

Server.War2.ru / Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment

« on: March 08, 2018, 05:00:54 PM »

Next time you see a person trying to get a child's real address for obvious disgusting reasons and you are here looking and crossing your arms saying parents should be ok to just squelch the guy and move on: think about if it was your child that was playing the game that day.

I could go on and on and on, you can defend yourself that is good. Now does that mean we should behave like animals and not care for others that could be weaker and more vulnerable?

472

Server.War2.ru / Re: Encourage players to play for the challenge. Remove counters all together :P

« on: March 08, 2018, 04:51:35 PM »

Ok so other questions:
Why do you want to keep these numbers?
What do they really mean to you?
What good are they overall?

I can give you reasons why they can have a negative effects on players behaviors using rational incentive game theory.
Now you say you don't want to ditch them give me one reason we should keep them.
 

*Grabbing popcorn*

473

Server.War2.ru / Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment

« on: March 08, 2018, 04:39:43 PM »

Not true at all, there were bans for breaking the code of conduct I've seen some back in the days. And there are still today.

Most of the time people used to make racist jokes and sometime even be disgusting without meaning it just for the fun of it and usually this was understood as is and or people would talk to each other and resolve the issue between them.

But if players reported an abuse it was followed by actions usually the player would receive a warning  followed by a ban most of the time temporary if the abuse wasn't too grave.
But sometimes they would be forever bans when it was a player that just wouldn't learn.

Yes admins were not all over the place reading logs and all to enforce the rules to the letter. No one has the time for that and it wouldn't be nice either no one wants to live in a police state.
But they would just step in if an abuse was reported that is all we need.

Most people back in the days would just not take the time to report small transgressions and were forgiving and understood what was part of a joke so I understand if felt that way.

It is not because you set rules that everyone will constantly report people that break them they will take the time to report if the abuse is too damaging and the guy does not stop after being warned, usually if players take that time it means something it should have consequences.

Again it works the same today blizzard rarely bans people just when they repeatedly cross the line but at least there is a line and people know they have a way to end it if it goes too far.

Of course this is not about having admin use the ban hammers all the time it is about agreeing on a general code of conduct between
us.

Just so people can say things like: "Stop harassing me or I will report you for this and there will be actions taken."
Most of the time that will be enough the guy will stop because if it has consequences then yes people will behave.

474

Server.War2.ru / Re: Encourage players to play for the challenge. Remove counters all together :P

« on: March 08, 2018, 03:24:11 PM »

I mean yeah a true elo system is good and more relevant than plain stupid win/loss counters still I believe that not all games should be recorded.

Only specific ones like iron man or "ranked" ones we could make a rule that if you want your game to be counted in you have to add "[ranked]" in the end of the game name or something.
That way anyone that enters it knows it counts and the rest of "non ranked" games could be a place where people feel free to try things and seek a challenge without necessarily hurting their "rank".

I mean I know it feels like it is a small thing but overall you'd be surprised how much little things like that can subconsciously change human behaviors.

475

Server.War2.ru / Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment

« on: March 08, 2018, 03:12:34 PM »

As I said it is not about one isolated case of one guy annoying a streamer or a new player it is the fact that unlike anywhere else these behaviors are tolerated.

It is quite easy to see when someone cross the line one ss and you have your nasty comment immortalized pretty much.

The thing is people are less likely to say nasty things that don't belong there if they know they can get banned for it in the first place.
Most of the time these people would never say something like that anywhere else for that exact reason.

I am a new player I log in I see heated and full of hatred racist and antisemitic talk on the general chat what do you think most people's next move is?
Its always the same with rules rules can be considered as limiting one's freedom true they also make sure that one person's action wont ruin other's experience.

Again It is about having a welcoming environment for new people.
About strengthening the community as a whole and providing an environment that is healthy for gaming and fun and where people feel safe to stay and even let their kid play.

I mean it is quite simple to do the link a lot of people came to my stream chat saying the community is horrible, I say it is time we do something about that.
Why should we tolerate a few disgusting members to have such a bad impact and draw such a nasty image of our community.

Imagine if other platforms like steam had no terms of use on their community's pages and all.

The problem is they are not just flagging themselves we all pay the price of these behaviors.
Its not about banning more people its about providing a set of rules that will eventually avoid problems to appear in the first place.

Also it is not about doing something new, Battle.net used to have terms of use.
Here is what they say on blizzard's website about harrasment:

Spoiler

Disruption / Harassment: Engage in any conduct designed or intended to disrupt or diminish the game experience for other players, or to disrupt operation of Blizzard’s Platform in any way, including the following:
Disrupting or assisting in the disruption of (i) any computer used to support the Platform or any Game environment; or (ii) any other player’s Game experience. ANY ATTEMPT BY YOU TO DISRUPT THE PLATFORM OR UNDERMINE THE LEGITIMATE OPERATION OF ANY GAME MAY BE A VIOLATION OF CRIMINAL AND CIVIL LAWS.
Harassing, griefing, abusive behavior or chat, deliberately poor teamwork intended to undermine other players’ experiences, deliberate inactivity or disconnecting, and/or any other activity which violates Blizzard’s Code of Conduct or In-Game Policies.

Here their code of conduct:
https://us.battle.net/support/en/article/42673

476

Server.War2.ru / Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment

« on: March 08, 2018, 10:44:08 AM »

Yes virtual world true true, yet again most online applications, games, game communities, sites,  irc chats, have terms of use.
Not all have the same level of control, but there is a reason they all have terms of use.

Terms of use is a way to build up a common ground for a community you will find in most case they do make sure that members have the best experience possible from the start by setting the minimal amount of limits that allow the most people to feel at home.

When you say you tolerate anything you are saying you don't care if your members do use your platform for expressing their racial hate and all of that crap.
What if a user uses your platform for child porn diffusion and abuse? What then so you tolerate that too? Humans are capable of being awesome beings but they also can behave very badly.

Not having terms of use is just making it super hard to build a community because it is damaging it at the same time. Think about it, every time a new user is going to look at what that one mentally retarded guy has to says in the general channel or even whispers him them there is a lot of chances that this guy will just assume we all are like this because we basically tolerate it.

This is about the fact that even if these retarded people represent less than 1% of the community, one of them that we tolerate does more damage than anything we do to help the community grow.

All I am saying is I don't care about single isolated cases here, I look at the big picture and honestly if we are to help war2.ru grow and get more players we might as well start there.
You don't build a community around hate talks, anarchy and chaos.
You've got to give people something they want to be a part of and a place they want to settle in and where they feel at home.

The best way to do that is encouraging positive attitudes and exchanges, fair play, fun and making sure that interactions cannot be too damaging having terms of use gives a nice common ground that ensure that exchanges cannot be too destructive between players and for the community as a whole.

In short if you have "Welcome" written on your door step people might feel better about getting in and talking to you than if it is something like "death to all jews and niggas" simple as that.

477

Server.War2.ru / Re: Encourage players to play for the challenge. Remove counters all together :P

« on: March 07, 2018, 09:23:19 PM »

That would make it less exotic and unexpected though 

When a team is stacked replace all attacking units they can buy by skeletons now that is a handicap XD

BTW your archers killed a looot of mages with them transports in that game:

HSC | XuRnT/Cel/Raz/Restless vs. Seth/Everlast/Neau/ggggowwww - YouTube

That is actually a very good example of how self inflicted handicaps and rules can lead to both challenging and fun games :-)

What I am proposing is just making sure we do all we can to help players be in that state of mind where they want to get the most of each game, have fun and most challenging games possible and nothing stops them or deters them from that.
Especially being bad or having new players in their games and/or taking risks. ;-)

478

Server.War2.ru / Re: Encourage players to play for the challenge. Remove counters all together :P

« on: March 07, 2018, 07:55:18 PM »

The point is you wouldn't even have to do that since winning or loosing would not matter at all in the end you would just be happy that you had a good game.
Plus this is more about giving incentive to more people to naturally seek challenging experiences and balanced games over stock piling stupid points over intentionally stacked games.
You would be surprised to see how much a simple change on the rewarding system in a game can change players behaviors and experience overall.
In our case I think that wouldn't really cost anything and could be very rewarding.

Especially when it comes to the way new players are introduced to the game.

I am just pointing out that maybe that is something we could discuss and think about as it could induce good changes at very low cost. 

479

Server.War2.ru / Encourage players to play for the challenge. Remove counters all together :P

« on: March 07, 2018, 07:39:42 PM »

I discussed with a lot of new players since I joined war2.ru and there is one common thing that always comes out of it "I don't want to play because I am bad" also "players are just super rude when you don't perform well" etc we all have heard that don't we?

My point is the following:
Since when did it become more cool and rewarding to win a game than to have a challenging and hard game even though we might or will most likely loose it?

Well from what I see the way we do stats does go this way, and trust me even though all say stats are stupid and don't mean anything some people do take it pretty seriously.

Here is one example:
I played a game against a player that was much stronger than me (I wont give any name its not the point) but he tried something that went wrong and instead of playing the game as it was and have a challenging and hard game he basically asked me to ally victory as he really wasn't planning to loose a game like for real! You join a game and play it only if you think you wont loose? Because I didn't want that person to feel bad I accepted but hey man if that is not misplaced pride what is that?
Thus the question above ^

So my proposal is the following we remove these counters all together, they don't mean anything they just encourage people to put value in the win more than the fun and the challenge a game brings. So from what I see they just don't bring anything good to the game at all so lets just get rid of them.

So you might argue well then how do we know people skill levels, and I say well you never did know... At least now if the guy was surfing it wont change your stupid stats so you can quit whining about it play the game make yourself an idea of that player's level and next game you can already balance it better.

If we really want to have some kind of ranking system it should be separated from the usual games people play. And surely it should adopt a elo system where there is no reward when you win against a much lower elo player.
Here is one explaination of how it could work:

How Elo Ratings Are Calculated - YouTube

But for casual games they should have no recording so that people don't feel punished when they try crazy stupid things to make the games more fun / tricky.

Some people (me to take one random example) genuinely don't care about their stats so when I feel my team is a bit stacked I play something that is most likely to under-perform but still is fun and can work so that everyone has a chance to win and most of the time it even is rewarding to win that way or even loose if you put a good fight and it was intense. I would like us to try to encourage these kind of behaviors.

If that happens then new players might not loose as many games and if they do well at least there will not be a constant reminder for anyone so see and pick on.
They should be proud of playing the game even though its hard.
In that way they even deserve more respect than some much stronger players if you ask me

So yeah my point we remove them counters so we get:
> less judging and bullying over meaningless numbers.
> less incentive to stack teams
> less misplaced pride that goes in the way of fun
> less punishing risk taking
> more fun for everyone overall

480

Server.War2.ru / Re: Warcraft 2 Ru's Policy on harassment

« on: March 07, 2018, 06:52:38 PM »

While I think it is perfectly normal to have a certain amount of salt between players and I do believe squelching is more than enough to solve most one to one problems.
There is one case though were one person will affect more than just one player and has to be warned and punished accordingly if we want to help advertising the game:

We should simply adopt a terms of use policy that punishes racism & hatred toward minorities just like almost all other gaming platform do.
All that crap that is non-game related does damage our community and our reputation toward new comers / viewers believe it or not.

This is maybe one of the only thing I would like admins to be able to address because it has happened in a streamed game chat that such a comment appear and it is damaging and out of place.
Just like kids when they don't understand what is the limit between asking a person a candy and robbing it from them we need to set limits too because some people wont behave otherwise.