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FINALLYY EVERY 1 NEEDS THIS 1907  83

Administrator Ogre Posts: 1394 Karma: +135/-9 *****

iL

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Re: FINALLYY EVERY 1 NEEDS THIS
« Reply #15 on: June 30, 2019, 09:22:34 AM »
Quote
There is no argument that it technically allows more information so there is a small advantage (real or imagined), but what is the argument that it should not be part of the interface?
I'd say "because some players already have skill to control their peons and they spent much time to reach that skill".
These players have advantage now, they deserved it, but they loose it after your software coming out.

At the same time as i state before, i think our future is newcomers, so they will find it useful.
And the game needs evolving, so your utility is a good act for newcomers i think. So i plan to add your utils to new combat 4.5
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Re: FINALLYY EVERY 1 NEEDS THIS
« Reply #16 on: June 30, 2019, 11:33:45 PM »
great work!! the plugin system looks awesome & the map plugin is amazing!! <3<3<3 i too oppose the chop plugin however for exactly the reasons tk said.

I'm still not hearing an argument as to why it shouldn't be part of the interface. Should we never improve the game?
conversely, what's the argument that it should? the only reason i'm hearing is because you personally think it's an improvement to have to spend less attention monitoring choppers. that doesn't sound like an open & shut "improvement" so much as one person's personal preference for what essentially amounts to a crutch. like tk & others i hold the opposite position. just because a new feature can be added to the game doesn't automatically qualify it as an "improvement", just as a "change", especially if it's created & thrown out into the general population on one individual's whim rather than any kind of authoritative consensus that the feature is both valuable & needed.

this has of course always been a grey area for modding, like maphack for pballers or double click for customs players. those things also change the game to let some people play it the way they want to (and also do it by requiring less effort/skill on the part of the player). so that's a subjective improvement in their eyes, but it doesn't make either change an overarching improvement on the flow/balance/unique character of the game when taken as a whole. in general i think it's very much the opposite -- these things tend to have a marked dumbing down effect on how the game is played. i don't see why it should be taken as a given that the approach to designing an RTS game should necessarily mirror the approach modern civilization takes to making every aspect of life as easy & cushy & low-effort as possible. otoh we do have black to pink as an accepted feature, so it's not unprecedented either.

what's ultimately important to consider with any such new additions are 1) that they have popular support and 2) that they be standardized so everyone gets the same playing experience. i personally don't like this feature and find it annoying that someone can just throw it out there and now I suddenly have to wonder in every match if i'm playing against people who get a special advantage (which is exactly the same situation as maphack or the starting position hack), or that people should have to accept a fundamental change to the game they know & love based on nothing more substantial than "someone had coding knowledge and thought it'd be neat", or that this is anything other than a completely sloppy way to roll out new features into a game whose outcomes depend entirely on having a consistent ruleset. (that last being a greater problem with war2 modding as a whole, in general it's great that anyone takes the time to make new stuff at all & i don't intend to diminish that fact.) but to say "if you're too lazy to install gameplay-changing mods yourself then you deserve to get fucked over" just doesn't wash imo -- someone who creates & publishes a maphack could say the same thing, "oh, you should just download it yourself and then everything will be equal again, the game is changing, it's not my fault you can't keep up." (even if it did, at the very least you'd still have a responsibility to make all players aware of the change so they have the opportunity to get up to speed, and in that case posting about it on page 11 of an obscure thread on a forum used by 5 1/2 members of the community doesn't remotely qualify as due diligence. :P) anyone who really cares about "improving" the game must necessarily care about maintaining a consistent playing experience for everyone since after all this is a competitive multiplayer game. if it's not standardized, then none of the outcomes mean anything.
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Lambchops

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Re: FINALLYY EVERY 1 NEEDS THIS
« Reply #17 on: July 01, 2019, 08:17:37 AM »
Quote
There is no argument that it technically allows more information so there is a small advantage (real or imagined), but what is the argument that it should not be part of the interface?

I'd say "because some players already have skill to control their peons and they spent much time to reach that skill".
These players have advantage now, they deserved it, but they loose it after your software coming out.


Ok. I see your point.

Maybe I'm wrong but I'm not aware of any players who can keep track of exactly which peons started chopping first. It seems literally impossible without watching your choppers all game, which would leave you virtually unable to do anything else.

Is there anybody capable of doing this? Please speak up.


At the same time as i state before, i think our future is newcomers, so they will find it useful.
And the game needs evolving, so your utility is a good act for newcomers i think. So i plan to add your utils to new combat 4.5


Cool. You are most welcome to use it.  :thumbsup:

great work!! the plugin system looks awesome & the map plugin is amazing!! <3<3<3 i too oppose the chop plugin however for exactly the reasons tk said.


Mousey :) Welcome back I've missed you.

conversely, what's the argument that it should? the only reason i'm hearing is because you personally think it's an improvement to have to spend less attention monitoring choppers. that doesn't sound like an open & shut "improvement" so much as one person's personal preference for what essentially amounts to a crutch.


Respectfully, I really don't think it is a crutch at all - it is providing new information that could not be obtained be any means short of exclusively watching peons chop, which IMO is in any normal gameplay impractical to the point of impossibility.

The only way anyone could be paying that much attention to microing choppers would be if they were recording a macro at a slower speed. Anyone who has been paying attention to the game will know that this type of thing has been done since before this server started. I believe it was the death of many custion maps that required fast building and attacking like BGH, archers etc. I am happy to take the advantage away from cheats and give it to real players.

Other than that, I do not believe that ANYONE can keep track of all their choppers and build / scout / attack / defend / expand etc. beyond the first few peons at the start of the game, and at that point the chop bar is irrelevant anyway.

I honestly think it is information that should be available to the player (even wargus has this), and it just adds a bit more fun/interest. Any theoretical advantage is very slight, and it is available to everyone.

.... posting about it on page 11 of an obscure thread on a forum used by 5 1/2 members of the community doesn't remotely qualify as due diligence.



Well I did try. No it wasn't on page 11 of an obscure thread. I made THIS thread, and invited public comments before I even put the time into making it, let alone releasing it.

Yes I was a bit underwhelmed by the response.




There was a bit on the lobby map, then I posted this:

Next plugin will add hp/mp bars under units on screen for better microing. Also chopping bars for peons so you can see which ones have chopped more.


got no response, so I did a test then posted this

  Well here's a proof of concept for the life bars thing. Still a lot of kinks to iron out, but it should work ok I think:




So how should this be handled? I'm thinking magic / chopping display should only be for your own units, but life should be visible for any unit in visual range... or should this be handled some other way?

Thoughts?


  -- edit --

and how about training complete % bars for rax etc? gold left in mines? upgrade progress for smith/mill/foundary/altar etc?



There's a fine line between improving the game and changing it, which is why I want people's opinions on these things.


There were comments from easycompany, iL, zelya and Szwagier. Nobody else seemed to be interested. I'm guessing tk was too busy ranting about how he should be admin and criticizing people while not reading more than the first 6 words of anything.

People raised concerns about health bars, especially with regards to unselected units. To be honest I was really surprised by the general air of negativity. I expected displaying life bars for enemy units to be contentious, but I really didn't think anyone would mind seeing their own information.

But, as people had issues, I did not release a plugin that displayed health bars at all, and when I released the chop bars plugin 10 days later I made sure they were restricted only to the player's own peons and only while they were selected.

Still people complain.

I really thought I was doing the right thing to try to breathe some new interest back into the game. In the end server admins can declare whatever they want to be a "hack" and ban it. People can demand SS. The plugin framwork is designed to make it ver easy for individual mods to be added or removed. Do as you will.


But let's pop the lid off this steaming pile with some officially submitted tourney warvid featuring custom displays of opponent's forces and resources, on-screen health bars and training completion. This is apparantly OK as long as nobody talks about it, but try to openly improve the game for everyone and suddenly I'm overreaching.



All 4 players in that game are very high profile "pros". I would personally be quite surprised if they were not all running that same software. The local player was clearly using a gaming mouse with automatic clicking.

No I am not interested in naming either my source, the player who recorded it or the other players in the game so we can got through some facade of a witch-hunt, I'm sure we/they all know who they are. I just enjoy the game and I'd rather do something positive.


maintaining a consistent playing experience for everyone since after all this is a competitive multiplayer game. if it's not standardized, then none of the outcomes mean anything.



AGREE.

So let's cut the crap. Is the problem that I'm talking about mods openly? or that I'm making them available to non "pros" ... or am I seriously supposed to believe you have all been playing this game and running the server and the tourneys for all these years without ever knowing about any of this stuff? .... Please. Prosplain me that.


Now let's all have a nice discussion about the unfair advantage chop bars are providing.

Anyone want to buy a vowel? How bout an "O"?

Love you guys :)

 :critter:

Please read and consider all of this post before replying. Please also consider simply replying "Cool mod Lamb, thanks"
Administrator Ogre Posts: 1394 Karma: +135/-9 *****

iL

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Re: FINALLYY EVERY 1 NEEDS THIS
« Reply #18 on: July 01, 2019, 10:57:03 AM »


But let's pop the lid off this steaming pile with some officially submitted tourney warvid featuring custom displays of opponent's forces and resources, on-screen health bars and training completion.
This is apparantly OK as long as nobody talks about it, but try to openly improve the game for everyone and suddenly I'm overreaching.



All 4 players in that game are very high profile "pros". I would personally be quite surprised if they were not all running that same software. The local player was clearly using a gaming mouse with automatic clicking.

No I am not interested in naming either my source, the player who recorded it or the other players in the game so we can got through some facade of a witch-hunt, I'm sure we/they all know who they are. I just enjoy the game and I'd rather do something positive.

as i understand that is a warvideo replay with stats enabled.
Warvideo will not show that until the game is finished.
I don't mean there's no such type of hack somewhere, but at least i don't know about that type of hack.
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Re: FINALLYY EVERY 1 NEEDS THIS
« Reply #19 on: July 01, 2019, 12:47:06 PM »
as i understand that is a warvideo replay with stats enabled.
Warvideo will not show that until the game is finished.
I don't mean there's no such type of hack somewhere, but at least i don't know about that type of hack.

Very glad to hear it. Glitching observer on gives most of the same information, and I'm quite sure pleanty of people do that. Observer is a very flawed hack that is available in the server downloads section.... and somehow a chop bar is some crazy advantage?

  -- edit --

and where do you get that version of warvid?
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Re: FINALLYY EVERY 1 NEEDS THIS
« Reply #20 on: July 01, 2019, 12:51:36 PM »
The only way anyone could be paying that much attention to microing choppers would be if they were recording a macro at a slower speed. Anyone who has been paying attention to the game will know that this type of thing has been done since before this server started. I believe it was the death of many custion maps that required fast building and attacking like BGH, archers etc.
I BELIEVE THIS FALSE

I (USED TO) CRUSH ALL CHOP AND BGH AND ARCHER AND MAD AND KOTR PLAYERS AND I LEGIT, THEREFORE HAX0RS HAVE LITTEL SUCCESS

WAIT U TALKIN ABOUT ME? LOL
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Lambchops

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Re: FINALLYY EVERY 1 NEEDS THIS
« Reply #21 on: July 01, 2019, 01:09:36 PM »
The only way anyone could be paying that much attention to microing choppers would be if they were recording a macro at a slower speed. Anyone who has been paying attention to the game will know that this type of thing has been done since before this server started. I believe it was the death of many custion maps that required fast building and attacking like BGH, archers etc.
I BELIEVE THIS FALSE

I (USED TO) CRUSH ALL CHOP AND BGH AND ARCHER AND MAD AND KOTR PLAYERS AND I LEGIT, THEREFORE HAX0RS HAVE LITTEL SUCCESS

WAIT U TALKIN ABOUT ME? LOL

Hahaha. Nice.
 
Pro tip:
Always disrupt your "pro" opponent's base as early as possible, it upsets their build macro. The longer you leave it the greater their advantage.

 .... but just make sure they don't know how much wood a peon has chopped or you will be owned.
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Re: FINALLYY EVERY 1 NEEDS THIS
« Reply #22 on: July 01, 2019, 01:24:41 PM »
The only way anyone could be paying that much attention to microing choppers would be if they were recording a macro at a slower speed. Anyone who has been paying attention to the game will know that this type of thing has been done since before this server started. I believe it was the death of many custion maps that required fast building and attacking like BGH, archers etc.
I BELIEVE THIS FALSE

I (USED TO) CRUSH ALL CHOP AND BGH AND ARCHER AND MAD AND KOTR PLAYERS AND I LEGIT, THEREFORE HAX0RS HAVE LITTEL SUCCESS

WAIT U TALKIN ABOUT ME? LOL

Hahaha. Nice.
 
Pro tip:
Always disrupt your "pro" opponent's base as early as possible, it upsets their build macro. The longer you leave it the greater their advantage.

 .... but just make sure they don't know how much wood a peon has chopped or you will be owned.


THE ONLY CUSTOM PLAYER REALLY "CAUGHT" MACRO HAXING WAS TYRYTY IN THE FAMOUS TRIAL OF TYRYTY THREAD. IT WAS LONG ASS TIME AGO. THER WAS MAYBE ONE LESSER KNOW HAXER THAT ONLY PLAYED BGH N/A, BUT HE NEVER PLAYED MUCH AND I KANT EVEN REMEMBER HIS NICKNAME
(NOT TAKING DOUBLECLICK MACRO HAX0R INTO ACCOUNT, I BELIEVE THAT MACROHAX ISNT EVEN FROWN UPON ANYMORE)

...OR IS IT? AM UNAWARE OF WAR2 ZEITGEIST


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Re: FINALLYY EVERY 1 NEEDS THIS
« Reply #23 on: July 02, 2019, 03:02:00 PM »
ok so adding health bars to units or peons of YOUR own units is a hack? HOW IF EVERY 1 HAS IT if its in a update that every 1 is to download when they open the game how is it unfair? every 1 has it its not unfair .. and i think the real problem is the amount of people who can get on the server with out the new version of wc2 simply becuz there hacks wont work on it .. so they stick to the old ver .. we need to make the new update mandatory so every 1 is using the same client with the chopper or no chopper update doesnt matter no advantage cuz all will have it
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Re: FINALLYY EVERY 1 NEEDS THIS
« Reply #24 on: July 02, 2019, 03:48:16 PM »
this game is the easiest startegy that i played online and you want make it more easy?

wtf?
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Re: FINALLYY EVERY 1 NEEDS THIS
« Reply #25 on: July 02, 2019, 03:57:07 PM »
actually its not the easiest becuz it doesnt have all the shortcuts that the new rts games has .. its by far more primitive so more difficult for people who havent played it befor then any other rts
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Re: FINALLYY EVERY 1 NEEDS THIS
« Reply #26 on: July 03, 2019, 01:02:32 AM »
You are talking about Control, let me guess,  you want pick all rax with one click

Did you play sc:bw online?


And you belive thats some how where born  +2000 will play this old game?
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Re: FINALLYY EVERY 1 NEEDS THIS
« Reply #27 on: July 03, 2019, 05:09:56 AM »
And you belive thats some how where born  +2000 will play this old game?

Ragner and hurt both born 2000+

Why not? It's an awesome game. Maybe we won't get a million young players, but we can get some.

I hear young people still play chess too - the graphics on that is pretty old ;)

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Re: FINALLYY EVERY 1 NEEDS THIS
« Reply #28 on: July 05, 2019, 12:32:13 PM »
I love these additions to the game they look legit and they are a great step forward to upgrade the game! :thumbsup:

About the fact that it is a real help to have them tools on, it would be awesome if we could have a quick way to tell when people are or not running the mods from the game with a command or/and from the status page for example.
Since these additions may really help the game-play substantially it would be nice to be able to see when players use them for tourneys and ladder.
That way people can still play "old school" if they really want and wont feel cheated on since they can see/tell before hand if they want to.

For example some tourney could make them tools mandatory or ask players not to use these tools works both ways overall I see only positive can come out of this if it is done right.

What do you think guys would that be doable?
@iL
@Lambchops

I think making the mod visible to all in game and on status may fix any problem people have with it in it's current form, and maybe later form if more features are added to it later on :-)

And again great job Lambchops you are doing amazing things!
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Re: FINALLYY EVERY 1 NEEDS THIS
« Reply #29 on: July 05, 2019, 12:54:00 PM »
I think the chop bars are almost completely useless. Health bars however would be more useful. It will help newbs with controlling there units better and as they improve, there will be better players thus resulting in better games.